Author Topic: ObamaCare: Why "Tax" vs "Fine/Penalty" is Irrelevant  (Read 7752 times)

Trip

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Re: ObamaCare: Why "Tax" vs "Fine/Penalty" is Irrelevant
« Reply #15 on: August 07, 2013, 06:23:14 PM »
Look shithead, why can't you just stop being so needy as to annoy the hell out of a whole message board with your cloying, whining appeal for someone, anyone to agree with your n-e-v-e-r-e-n-d-i-n-g-b-o-r-i-n-g-a-s-h-e-l-l-s-l-e-e-p-i-n-d-u-c-i-n-g-e-y-e-g-o-u-g-i-n-g-c-r-a-p  ?

Did you notice that nobody but me is responding  ?  They just want it to stop.

Shithead.   :biggrin: I love it when they care to "send the very best". You're getting desperate, actually beyond desperate.

I'm not needy. I just wanted to engage a discussion that should be important to us all. You started the personalized mudslinging and those watching (but not responding) have undoubtedly noticed you're getting your ass handed to you.  Probably most of those watching recognize that, "fools go where angels fear to tread."

People choose to read these threads, or not.  I'm sure we'd all appreciate you actually attempting to address the subject matter.

The only person I'm having trouble with, even across numerous threads here and in the main board, is you.   The problem with you is a result of your short grasp, and shorter attention span, and the fact that you imagine that you've actually 'got game".   However you're actually going to have find a longer reach and better grasp to defend Romney's "Fifty Flavors" effectively.

Any time you want to actually make an attempt at addressing the subject, you just let me know.   I'm more than happy to make peace, but I'm not going to endure more of your empty, personalized posts without you ending up with bruises.

Until then, you jus' keep on whistling through the graveyard, ya' hear?


« Last Edit: August 07, 2013, 06:31:03 PM by Trip »

Trip

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Re: ObamaCare: Why "Tax" vs "Fine/Penalty" is Irrelevant
« Reply #16 on: August 07, 2013, 06:46:01 PM »
The long winded arguments are getting old.

We could fill volumes of books with exactly how the constitution has been so derailed...by both parties.

Now that the SCOTUS has determined that Obamacare is constitutional, barring armed conflict, I don't know what else to do, but work toward the effort to get it defunded.

It took a long time to get to this point; we aren't going to spin back to a constitutional government overnight.

Which is why I don't really like fighting with liberals; I'd prefer to get them to understand that the constitution is just as important to them, too.

I guess I wont be passing you a copy of my book when it comes out. (kidding)

I haven't decided on whether or not to use a pseudonym, but I have decided on a title.

The point of my posting on various aspects of the Constitution is that we're never going to bet back to a Constitutional government if we don't recognize all the varied ways that government has exceeded the Constituition.  If we only pull back certain things, then we're going to get back to the same place we are now, but probably in much shorter time period.

This is only my own opinion, but I'm very certain we won't get anything back without a revolution of sorts,  at least an uprising.  We have people on the Court that are dead-set on engaging Social Justice, and Socialism, and whitewashing both what the Excutive and state legislatures are doing.  Ignoring the fact these justice never should have been allowed to sit  there in the first place,  we're never going to get the proper perspective in the Court back until we first clean house in Congress. And it still may require removing some by force. 

I only caught a bit of Levin tonight, but he was alluding to this very same thing in an extended rant, and other conservative mouthpieces are as well.   I'm about to download tonight's show, as soon as it becomes available, which should be shortly.  Ah, here it is now, Levin's show from Aug 7th!

In any event, it is my sincere hope that my long posts (along with supporting references) encourage people to join this forum and either argue with me, or against me. 

However even those that don't join in on the discussion will at least start thinking about things, and that's the first step to our recovery - for all of us, myself included.





Trip

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Re: ObamaCare: Why "Tax" vs "Fine/Penalty" is Irrelevant
« Reply #17 on: August 07, 2013, 07:56:52 PM »
Now that the SCOTUS has determined that Obamacare is constitutional, barring armed conflict, I don't know what else to do, but work toward the effort to get it defunded.

Actually, I'm quite certain that a great many would disagree with this, but SCOTUS didn't actually "determine that ObamaCare is constitutional".

The constitutional authority of "judicial review" does not directly indicate, nor imply, that the SCOTUS is the final word on constitutionality, nor the only word. 

Unfortunately this misconception  has come about through the federal government's own deliberate misrepresentation, and the people's negligence regarding their own authority, and responsibility.

There are at least 3 other paths to take before armed conflict:

1)  State nullification.

References

Video:

Article: "How do we get rid of Obamacare? Nullify it!"

"A nullification is the rightful remedy whenever the government violates the Constitution"
~Thomas Jefferson


2) Federal Grand Jury.

Leo Donofrio Esq., has an excellent article about Grand Juries, and shows how the federal government has deliberately misrepresented these being no longer valid, when it is untrue.

Donofrio: "The Federal Grand Jury is the 4th Branch of Government"

3) Civil Disobedience.

We have the right to refuse to participate in ObamaCare, and to on our own take a stand. We can refuse to participate in the health car process, and refuse to pay any fine for not having health care.

Reference this Declaration, also in my signature:

Declaration: ObamCare Null & Void

Which is why I don't really like fighting with liberals; I'd prefer to get them to understand that the constitution is just as important to them, too.

Unfortunately those "Liberals",  by deliberate  and conscious choice,  do not want to understand and regard the Constitution, and must necessarily reject its tenets in support of their beliefs.   Their entire ideology revolves around big government fascistic dictate of all the terms of our lives, and society overall - Social Engineering. 

Those so-called "Liberals" don't really regard individual liberty any more than the statist  globalists that occupy the Republican party.  However those statist globalists in the Republican party have done a much better job of hiding their agenda - they lie.

We have about as much chance of getting those Progressives to regard the Constitution, as we do of fixing the problems by "voting harder". 

It is unreasonable to believe that we might fix the problems we now face by the same means that created those problems in the first place. 

Offline kramarat

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Re: ObamaCare: Why "Tax" vs "Fine/Penalty" is Irrelevant
« Reply #18 on: August 08, 2013, 03:44:20 AM »
Quote
Unfortunately those "Liberals",  by deliberate  and conscious choice,  do not want to understand and regard the Constitution, and must necessarily reject its tenets in support of their beliefs.   Their entire ideology revolves around big government fascistic dictate of all the terms of our lives, and society overall - Social Engineering.

Those so-called "Liberals" don't really regard individual liberty any more than the statist  globalists that occupy the Republican party.  However those statist globalists in the Republican party have done a much better job of hiding their agenda - they lie.

We have about as much chance of getting those Progressives to regard the Constitution, as we do of fixing the problems by "voting harder".

It is unreasonable to believe that we might fix the problems we now face by the same means that created those problems in the first place.

I completely disagree with this part.
Liberals, progressives, socialists, etc., are made, not born; and they are being spewn out by our public education system.

When kids are taught "rights", there is no mention of the constitution. They learn that they have a "right" to not be bullied; a "right" to participate in high school sports, regardless of ability; a "right" to free school lunch; a "right" to move to the next grade, regardless of their grasp of the material; a "right" to go to college; a "right" to a well paying job.

It's socialist indoctrination from the moment they hit the classroom...

Having lived in Santa Cruz for 11 years, I got to know, (and like), a lot of "liberals". They aren't much different...there are even droves of "Joe six pack" liberals; they just happen to drink expensive boutique beer and smoke a joint after work, as opposed to Budweiser and a shot of whiskey. :wink:

Many of these people just yearn to be associated with a cause, want to belong to something that matters, and are willing to fully embrace things, based on little information:
Save the whales.
...Trees
...Earth

Armed with some basic information, I believe that they can be convinced that the REPUBLIC is worth saving. Hell, the entire 60's revolution was based on cutting down an out of control government...imagine if that movement was based on returning the government to constitutional responsibility. We'd be living in a much different place.

The Washington elite are banking on these people being ignored and vilified by conservatives; meanwhile, they are becoming a majority. None of your ideas will work, if conservatives continue to become a minority in this country.

One does not have to be a constitutional scholar to convince people of the benefits of a limited government. Our debt alone can be used as an ice breaker. Without winning converts, our numbers will continue to dwindle; and we have zero representation in Washington.

 

Offline Solar

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Re: ObamaCare: Why "Tax" vs "Fine/Penalty" is Irrelevant
« Reply #19 on: August 08, 2013, 05:40:53 AM »
I completely disagree with this part.
Liberals, progressives, socialists, etc., are made, not born; and they are being spewn out by our public education system.

When kids are taught "rights", there is no mention of the constitution. They learn that they have a "right" to not be bullied; a "right" to participate in high school sports, regardless of ability; a "right" to free school lunch; a "right" to move to the next grade, regardless of their grasp of the material; a "right" to go to college; a "right" to a well paying job.

It's socialist indoctrination from the moment they hit the classroom...

Having lived in Santa Cruz for 11 years, I got to know, (and like), a lot of "liberals". They aren't much different...there are even droves of "Joe six pack" liberals; they just happen to drink expensive boutique beer and smoke a joint after work, as opposed to Budweiser and a shot of whiskey. :wink:

Many of these people just yearn to be associated with a cause, want to belong to something that matters, and are willing to fully embrace things, based on little information:
Save the whales.
...Trees
...Earth

Armed with some basic information, I believe that they can be convinced that the REPUBLIC is worth saving. Hell, the entire 60's revolution was based on cutting down an out of control government...imagine if that movement was based on returning the government to constitutional responsibility. We'd be living in a much different place.

The Washington elite are banking on these people being ignored and vilified by conservatives; meanwhile, they are becoming a majority. None of your ideas will work, if conservatives continue to become a minority in this country.

One does not have to be a constitutional scholar to convince people of the benefits of a limited government. Our debt alone can be used as an ice breaker. Without winning converts, our numbers will continue to dwindle; and we have zero representation in Washington.
True K, they've been indoctrinated, they are taught that being rich is somehow the equivalent of evil and that all things bad stem from Capitalism, men and women are equal on every level biologically, regardless of the laws of nature, that perversion is to be accepted as a lifestyle choice.

No, these are not by nature right, these need to be taught/indoctrinated, because it goes against the natural law of human nature, right and wrong are only relative to popular opinion, something the left has been working extremely hard at over the last 35 years to cvhange.
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Offline AndyJackson

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Re: ObamaCare: Why "Tax" vs "Fine/Penalty" is Irrelevant
« Reply #20 on: August 08, 2013, 07:26:03 AM »
Shithead.   :biggrin: I love it when they care to "send the very best". You're getting desperate, actually beyond desperate.

I think if someone took the time to go back and hi-lite all of the childish little insults that permeate all of your novels, it would tell a different story.

I just wanted to cut to the chase, instead of writing (or lifting) 2000 words of repetitive, mind-numbing quicksand.

Now go to bed.....whether in mama's basement or the assisted living facility.....not totally sure which is your reality yet.

Don't be too needy for attention and approval  !

Trip

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Re: ObamaCare: Why "Tax" vs "Fine/Penalty" is Irrelevant
« Reply #21 on: August 08, 2013, 07:53:33 AM »
I think if someone took the time to go back and hi-lite all of the childish little insults that permeate all of your novels, it would tell a different story.

I just wanted to cut to the chase, instead of writing (or lifting) 2000 words of repetitive, mind-numbing quicksand.

Now go to bed.....whether in mama's basement or the assisted living facility.....not totally sure which is your reality yet.

Don't be too needy for attention and approval  !

Let me get this straight.  You call me "shithead" and then quote my response and you're the one claiming "childish insults"?

Evidently your memory is even  shorter than both your reach and your grasp.  Allow me to refresh it, since it's close at hand. This is how you started things in your first post in this Constitution forum, over in the "Fifty Flavors" thread as you sought to defend Romney's corruption of the 10th:

"Refugees in our own country"

"extremely alienable rights"

"our rights pilfered locally"

"subversion"

"state-sponsored corruption"

A bunch of dramatic, activist crap that reads like something babbled by Sharpton, or Pelosi, or Barney Frank.

Impressive.

Since that post, you've not had one direct reference to the Constitution, 
- not one reference to the Federalist,
- not one reference to the Founders letters,
- not one reference to supreme court opinion. 
- not even any attempt at only a superficial argument of how Romney might be correct!

All you've had is ad hominem attacks, which goes along way to establishing you as the flunky of this forum.

This is beyond tiresome and you're serving as nothing but a disruption to real discussion, like some child in the backseat that won't stop being objectionable on a long road trip.

Here's your ass.  Come back when you have something more.


Offline kramarat

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Re: ObamaCare: Why "Tax" vs "Fine/Penalty" is Irrelevant
« Reply #22 on: August 08, 2013, 08:07:37 AM »
True K, they've been indoctrinated, they are taught that being rich is somehow the equivalent of evil and that all things bad stem from Capitalism, men and women are equal on every level biologically, regardless of the laws of nature, that perversion is to be accepted as a lifestyle choice.

No, these are not by nature right, these need to be taught/indoctrinated, because it goes against the natural law of human nature, right and wrong are only relative to popular opinion, something the left has been working extremely hard at over the last 35 years to cvhange.

A quirky little thing about liberals....they can be turned.

I mean the masses of street level libs.
They don't have to fully understand a subject, to become passionate about it; this can be applied to the constitution, big government, and be used to our advantage. These people love to picket, protest and demonstrate.

Using the debt as a wedge to get them engaged against big government, is a minor one. A few of the big ones, are, Obama's domestic drone program, Obama's incestuous relationship with the big banks and Monsanto, Obama's domestic NSA spying program.

I don't have a requirement for someone to label themselves as a conservative, to have them join in the fight against the government take over of our lives. The more the merrier.

Offline AndyJackson

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Re: ObamaCare: Why "Tax" vs "Fine/Penalty" is Irrelevant
« Reply #23 on: August 08, 2013, 08:08:46 AM »
I didn't claim to be innocent.

I stated that if one peruses your boat-anchor-posts.....they'll find a gigantic disparity of insults that will favor you, in sheer poundage.

I've done a few myself, that's the truth.

And quite fitting for the conservative version of shenanigans.

Offline AndyJackson

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Re: ObamaCare: Why "Tax" vs "Fine/Penalty" is Irrelevant
« Reply #24 on: August 08, 2013, 08:25:16 AM »
Liberals by and large need to feel that they are part of the "good / smart / caring / loving" group, that is going to "save the world, or specific wonderful thing" (i.e. bug, worm, weed, etc.)

They need to receive pats on the head for being special in those regards.  And do not care at all about the details, truth, logic, or likelihood of it actually happening.  It works on teeny boppers who just took their first socialism-tinged HS social studies class......all the way up to doddering old fossils who need something to do, somewhere to be.

There certainly are a bunch of traditional liberal gripes and fixations that can be directed at Obama now.

It's just that he and the MSM are far too successful with the pied-piper / santa claus / JFK-Camelot routine so far, and still.

It's tough to get them pissed when they're still gobbling up the fake promises and myths.

Offline kramarat

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Re: ObamaCare: Why "Tax" vs "Fine/Penalty" is Irrelevant
« Reply #25 on: August 08, 2013, 08:30:47 AM »
Liberals by and large need to feel that they are part of the "good / smart / caring / loving" group, that is going to "save the world, or specific wonderful thing" (i.e. bug, worm, weed, etc.)

They need to receive pats on the head for being special in those regards.  And do not care at all about the details, truth, logic, or likelihood of it actually happening.  It works on teeny boppers who just took their first socialism-tinged HS social studies class......all the way up to doddering old fossils who need something to do, somewhere to be.

There certainly are a bunch of traditional liberal gripes and fixations that can be directed at Obama now.

It's just that he and the MSM are far too successful with the pied-piper / santa claus / JFK-Camelot routine so far, and still.

It's tough to get them pissed when they're still gobbling up the fake promises and myths.

Monsanto and invasion of privacy/government prying, are two subjects that get them riled. Once they get fired up, making the Obama connection is pretty easy.

I will also make Obama/Bush connections. The truth hurts; and if the truth leads them to not trusting the government...that's exactly the road that I want them on.

Offline AndyJackson

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Re: ObamaCare: Why "Tax" vs "Fine/Penalty" is Irrelevant
« Reply #26 on: August 08, 2013, 08:35:16 AM »
Yeah, Bush was culpable in a lot of this stuff too.

Funny thing is that we conservatives admit this, and that he failed everyone as a presumptive conservative.

Yet the wall of protection, cone of silence, and zero dissent are still in place for BO, by libs.

I guess it's up to us to foment dissent on the lib side.  We should, it's a tried & true tactic that they use on us 24/7.

Trip

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Re: ObamaCare: Why "Tax" vs "Fine/Penalty" is Irrelevant
« Reply #27 on: August 08, 2013, 08:44:13 AM »
I didn't claim to be innocent.

I stated that if one peruses your boat-anchor-posts.....they'll find a gigantic disparity of insults that will favor you, in sheer poundage.

I've done a few myself, that's the truth.

And quite fitting for the conservative version of shenanigans.

A few? That the facts, and Constitution itself stand with me is not an insult. It only shows your knowledge to be lacking.


Offline kramarat

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Re: ObamaCare: Why "Tax" vs "Fine/Penalty" is Irrelevant
« Reply #28 on: August 08, 2013, 09:48:17 AM »
Yeah, Bush was culpable in a lot of this stuff too.

Funny thing is that we conservatives admit this, and that he failed everyone as a presumptive conservative.

Yet the wall of protection, cone of silence, and zero dissent are still in place for BO, by libs.

I guess it's up to us to foment dissent on the lib side.  We should, it's a tried & true tactic that they use on us 24/7.

Yep. It doesn't have to be threatening either.

There is a damned good reason that Reagan won on a "government sucks" platform.

Offline Solar

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Re: ObamaCare: Why "Tax" vs "Fine/Penalty" is Irrelevant
« Reply #29 on: August 08, 2013, 10:23:34 AM »
A quirky little thing about liberals....they can be turned.

I mean the masses of street level libs.
They don't have to fully understand a subject, to become passionate about it; this can be applied to the constitution, big government, and be used to our advantage. These people love to picket, protest and demonstrate.

Using the debt as a wedge to get them engaged against big government, is a minor one. A few of the big ones, are, Obama's domestic drone program, Obama's incestuous relationship with the big banks and Monsanto, Obama's domestic NSA spying program.

I don't have a requirement for someone to label themselves as a conservative, to have them join in the fight against the government take over of our lives. The more the merrier.
Yes, they can be turned, but it's very difficult for us to do with facts, it requires breaking through their emotional wall and connection to their leftist religion.
However, with that said, Hussein has been a blessing in disguise, he, with the help of the Dim party managed to rip freedoms away from their supporters, his need to spy on Americans, use personal information via the IRS to hurt his opposition, all this has taken a toll on what they believed to be the right path.

Now they are beginning to look at liberalism and it's end goals with an eye of severe distrust, which will be reflected in 2014.
Many of these libs that bought the Hope and Change BS are now a little older and after being beaten across the knees with the socialist agenda, are beginning to look for yet another political option, one that touts more freedoms, less Govt intrusion, and that leads them towards Libertarianism, and who do they see as representative of that movement?
Rand Paul, who happens to be Tea party, which makes them look further into what the Tea party is, and what they are discovering is that it's not the lie the Dims sold them, it's about a return towards the Founders dreams.

In other words, these kids are angry and will be looking for an alternative to the Dim party and even if they don't vote Tea, they won't be voting Dim.
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