Author Topic: "Fifty Flavors of Democracy" (10th Amendment)  (Read 7553 times)

Offline AndyJackson

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Re: "Fifty Flavors of Democracy" (10th Amendment)
« Reply #30 on: August 07, 2013, 07:26:05 AM »
OK, I'll play along............on topic, and not antagonize you any more so hopefully you'll calm down and not devote half of your 1000 words to angry insults.

-What actually ties.......anything related to Romney.......to this map  ?  Does he indorse / endorse it somewhere, somehow  ?

-What is the genesis of this map  ?  It has several randomly named agencies in a title block, but no explanation of what they actually have to do with the content.  Who actually did the graphics of the map  ?

-Is the website that this map resides at / comes from..........credible  ?  "UAFF NEWS"  ?

Trip

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Re: "Fifty Flavors of Democracy" (10th Amendment)
« Reply #31 on: August 07, 2013, 12:35:38 PM »
OK, I'll play along............on topic, and not antagonize you any more so hopefully you'll calm down and not devote half of your 1000 words to angry insults.

-What actually ties.......anything related to Romney.......to this map  ?  Does he indorse / endorse it somewhere, somehow  ?

-What is the genesis of this map  ?  It has several randomly named agencies in a title block, but no explanation of what they actually have to do with the content.  Who actually did the graphics of the map  ?

-Is the website that this map resides at / comes from..........credible  ?  "UAFF NEWS"  ?

As the Map itself indicates, it comes from a U.N. document, although it is somewhat illegible due to jpg compression artifacts.   The map was compiled from documents at the United Nation’s Geneva Headquarters in 1994.  It was produced and shown to The United States Senate as they prepared to vote on the Global Bio-Diversity Treaty.  The Global Bio-Diversity treaty was ready to pass until Congress saw the map above.  The treaty failed because it could not be brought to the floor for a vote.  The good news is that the treaty failed…The bad news is this program is being implemented aggressively through ICLEI as Sustainable Development/Conservation Programs by unelected bureaucrats.

The means they seek to apply and employ the terms of this map, is the same means that Romney corrupted rights, through the ignorance of the American people that "states rights", and local autonomy, somehow amount to the ability of states and localities to dictate whatever terms.


Stakeholder Councils vs Roberts Rules
- Restructuring American Government


The way that Sustainable Development is carried out in local communities around the world, and particularly in this country, is  alarming, especially to those who seek accountability in government that recognizes individual rights. Operating within a system of stakeholder councils, organized to give community members a “stake” in the control over property in their neighborhood, proponents of Sustainable Development systematically promote their own ideas and marginalize any local opposition, particularly those individuals who advocate the freedom to use and enjoy private property. The product of a stakeholder council, often called a “consensus statement” or a “vision statement,” is typically approved by local governments without question, requiring citizens to submit to the questionable conclusions of a non-elected regional authority that is not accountable to the voters.

The "vision" of these stakeholders councils has quite a lot to do with Romney's utopian vision of what government should give to the people of the state under RomneyCare, in disregard to the oglibation of the state to perserve the rights of every citizen thereof, regardless of whether or not Romney supports Agenda 21 himself.  In fact the Agenda 21 plan is entirely enabled by Romney's corrupt ideology corruption of the 10th Amendment, and disregard for individual rights, something every American should be alarmed by, whether done on the State or Federal level.

Stakeholder council meetings are typically arranged under the auspices of soliciting input from community members on a project. This project may be initiated by local public officials, a local non-profit organization, a national or regional non-profit organization, or an NGO. 14 It is very rare for community members to instigate the stakeholder “visioning” process.

A typical stakeholder council meeting is run by a trained facilitator. 15 It is not the facilitator‟s job to make sure that all views are entered into the record. Thus, those facilitators abandon Robert's Rules of Order at the outset, and instead engage a sort of corrupt airing of the interests of the community, but only those that align with their agenda.

The facilitator's job, instead, is to guide the group to arrive at a consensus on the project. The consensus process has no mechanism for recording minority views, such as those who want to use their property in the manner they choose. Since he is being paid by the organization responsible for the project, it is in his interest to arrive at a consensus sympathetic to the desired outcome of the project, that being the promotion Agenda 21, Sustainable Development,  and bio-diversity, while subverting and denying individual freedoms. 

Tactics vary between the facilitators, but consensus generally is reached by using subtle means to marginalize opposition, such as recording only the “good” ideas, and allowing criticism only for the “bad” ideas.

Romney's RomneyCare and corruption of the 10th Amendment is a very "bad idea", and its embrace provides no obstacle to this sort of statist dictate, but rather invites it.

Agenda 21/Sustainable Development

Sustainable development seeks to establish a welfare system which undermines free enterprise to establish this new economy of "social equity" (from Socialist/Communist regimes), a "new" economic system involving partnership of government and industry (from Fascist regimes), and environmnental justice trumping human need and humanitarian concerns. This modern war on Liberty fosters confusion in our schools and politics on the nature of "what is a moral government. It causes division by dividing us into groups: They assert "social justice" ahead of "equal justice", and to promote a "social welfare" that replaces free enterprise and private property. The Green Goal - the "Rio Earth Summit" 1992 ".. modern lifestyles and consumption patterns of the affluent middle class - involving high meat intake, use of fossil fuels, appliances, home and work air conditioning, and suburban housing are NOT sustainable" Think about that, above, each one of those commonly-accepted modern conveniences and what they mean for you and what their denial and control will mean for your life and living standard. What else is not sustainable according to the UN Global Bio-Diversity Assessment report?:

 ♦ Golf courses
 ♦ Ski Lodges
 ♦ Irrigation
 ♦ Monotheism (!)
 ♦ Commercial Agriculture
 ♦ the Family Unit (!)
 ♦ Private Property

- all are not sustainable!

Yes, the UN is committed to abolishing private property. The UN's 1976 Habitat One Conference report states:
  • "Private land ownership is also a principle instrument of wealth and therefore contributes to social injustice. Public control of land us is therefore indispensable."

Tenets of Sustainable Development:

Two major components of Sustainable Development are de-population/population control and bio-equity. As Cass Sunstein announced: "animals and all living creatures have equal rights to humans." We may laugh, but they are laughing harder as the re-shape the map of the United States in nefarious ways to meet the objectives of Sustainable Development.  (i.e. "The Map")

The political goal (in the name of 'climate change') is to have all population living in government-controlled urbanized enclaves, where private transportation choices will become a thing of the past. We are to live, work, and socialize within these cities, brought to you under the lexicon of 'smart growth'.

This can't be true, you may say. Yes it is. The San Joaquin Valley is being starved as their economy is shut-down to protect the smelt. Logging villages are being shut-down in Oregon to preserve the spotted owl (as if they could not fly anywhere else). Over 400,000 square miles of the United States is currently being „grabbed‟ by the Government in the name of the Agenda 21 Wildlands Project, referred to hereafter as TWP. (The Wildlands Project).

While our attentions were focused on "Cap and Trade" and "Universal Health Care" and "Bailouts", Cass Sunstein has added 681 new species to the Endangered Species List (and these are old statistics). Compare this to the 27 species added to the list over the previous decade. The end goal is a totally new design of these United States, one having no regard for individual liberties, and an entirely new map even lain out here showing how our country is to be organized, and how our population is to be re-distributed. We get to live in „Normal Use -Zones of Cooperation‟. (again, "The Map")

VIDEO: "America's Choice: Liberty or Sustainable Development"

The issue at hand,  "Who Decides?" Who decides the terms of your life, is it the individual, or is it the State?  This is the same issue at stake in RomneyCare.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2013, 12:54:27 PM by Trip »

Trip

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Re: "Fifty Flavors of Democracy" (10th Amendment)
« Reply #32 on: August 07, 2013, 01:08:59 PM »
Implementing UN Agenda 21 (partial list)

U.S. Government Agencies
- Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) 
- U.S Fish and WIldlife Service
- U.S. National PArk Service
- Housing and Urban Development Department of Education
- United States Geological Survey (USGS) (yes, amazingly!)

NGO - Non-Governmental Organizations
- Nature Conservancy
- Sierra Club
- National Audobon Society
- American Planning Assoc.

Foundations
- Rockefeller
- Pew
- Turner
- Ford
- Packard
- Irvine
- Carnegie
- Macarthur
- Community


The 3 E's of Sustainable Development

  • 1) EQUITY (SOCIAL) - (Communism) Which is taken from Communism, where all assets, including property and land are taken over by the state and used for the state. The Supreme Court has already supported taken over privately owned property for transfer even to another private ownership, to be then used for the "public good". This is an anathema to our freedom.

    2) ECONOMY - (Fascism)This is an economy that is not a Free Market economy, but rather a Fascist Economy from Mussolini and later advanced by Hitler in NAZI Germany. It is the union of government and business interests. We see this today in GE/NBC and its CEO, Jeffrey Immelt's, involvement in the Obama administration. GE's investment in Carbon Credit and "Green Energy" technologies is being aggressively advanced by GE's CEO Jeffrey Immelt, which is made far easier by Immelt also being on the President's Economic Recovery Advisory Board. GE has interest in a carbon exchange credits through its new finance venture "Greenhouse Gas Services" as well as wind turbine engines. GE is also a member of the U.S. Climate Action Partnership, which advocates cap and trade and leads the push for greenhouse gas restrictions. Despite GE's stock falling 30% in 2008, it spent $18.66 million on lobbying. This same organization gives us our "climate warming" news and Obama insight from NBC coverage. Colossal conflict of interest, anyone?

    3) ENVIRONMENT - This is not a consideration of the environment where personal and corporate private rights are exercised in a responsible manner, but rather a tyranny where there are NO private rights and where any human occupation is contained within very limited zones and many areas are prohibited ANY AND ALL human interaction. (SEE MAP) This is not "sustaining" our environment for future generations, but rather prohibiting those resources to every and all generations and relegating human beings to huddled rats on a ship.

« Last Edit: August 07, 2013, 01:48:16 PM by Trip »

Offline AndyJackson

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Re: "Fifty Flavors of Democracy" (10th Amendment)
« Reply #33 on: August 07, 2013, 01:45:16 PM »
I did read all of that, and I should get a prize for doing so.

It looks to be nothing but cut & paste from a hard-core website.  Which is not evil or anything, just that you're delivering that instead of answering the questions I offered.

I still can't see any connection to Romney, except that you appear to be equating Romneycare, and his "50 flavors" comment, with the stakeholder councils.

I don't see it.  Especially without a rational explanation as to why/ how they're connected.

The stakeholder councils seem to be a corruptible process, but I'd need to see where they've been used to sell Agenda 21 stuff in America.  Or selling anything so far.  That would be useful info, for it to be a proper boogeyman.

And we all know that the UN does nothing but sell communism bullshit.  So that's nothing new / not news.......but what have they specifically accomplished with Agenda 21 in America  ?  What & where  ?

Offline Solar

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Re: "Fifty Flavors of Democracy" (10th Amendment)
« Reply #34 on: August 07, 2013, 01:50:34 PM »
As the Map itself indicates, it comes from a U.N. document, although it is somewhat illegible due to jpg compression artifacts.   The map was compiled from documents at the United Nation’s Geneva Headquarters in 1994.  It was produced and shown to The United States Senate as they prepared to vote on the Global Bio-Diversity Treaty.  The Global Bio-Diversity treaty was ready to pass until Congress saw the map above.  The treaty failed because it could not be brought to the floor for a vote.  The good news is that the treaty failed…The bad news is this program is being implemented aggressively through ICLEI as Sustainable Development/Conservation Programs by unelected bureaucrats.

The means they seek to apply and employ the terms of this map, is the same means that Romney corrupted rights, through the ignorance of the American people that "states rights", and local autonomy, somehow amount to the ability of states and localities to dictate whatever terms.


Stakeholder Councils vs Roberts Rules
- Restructuring American Government


The way that Sustainable Development is carried out in local communities around the world, and particularly in this country, is  alarming, especially to those who seek accountability in government that recognizes individual rights. Operating within a system of stakeholder councils, organized to give community members a “stake” in the control over property in their neighborhood, proponents of Sustainable Development systematically promote their own ideas and marginalize any local opposition, particularly those individuals who advocate the freedom to use and enjoy private property. The product of a stakeholder council, often called a “consensus statement” or a “vision statement,” is typically approved by local governments without question, requiring citizens to submit to the questionable conclusions of a non-elected regional authority that is not accountable to the voters.

The "vision" of these stakeholders councils has quite a lot to do with Romney's utopian vision of what government should give to the people of the state under RomneyCare, in disregard to the oglibation of the state to perserve the rights of every citizen thereof, regardless of whether or not Romney supports Agenda 21 himself.  In fact the Agenda 21 plan is entirely enabled by Romney's corrupt ideology corruption of the 10th Amendment, and disregard for individual rights, something every American should be alarmed by, whether done on the State or Federal level.

Stakeholder council meetings are typically arranged under the auspices of soliciting input from community members on a project. This project may be initiated by local public officials, a local non-profit organization, a national or regional non-profit organization, or an NGO. 14 It is very rare for community members to instigate the stakeholder “visioning” process.

A typical stakeholder council meeting is run by a trained facilitator. 15 It is not the facilitator‟s job to make sure that all views are entered into the record. Thus, those facilitators abandon Robert's Rules of Order at the outset, and instead engage a sort of corrupt airing of the interests of the community, but only those that align with their agenda.

The facilitator's job, instead, is to guide the group to arrive at a consensus on the project. The consensus process has no mechanism for recording minority views, such as those who want to use their property in the manner they choose. Since he is being paid by the organization responsible for the project, it is in his interest to arrive at a consensus sympathetic to the desired outcome of the project, that being the promotion Agenda 21, Sustainable Development,  and bio-diversity, while subverting and denying individual freedoms. 

Tactics vary between the facilitators, but consensus generally is reached by using subtle means to marginalize opposition, such as recording only the “good” ideas, and allowing criticism only for the “bad” ideas.

Romney's RomneyCare and corruption of the 10th Amendment is a very "bad idea", and its embrace provides no obstacle to this sort of statist dictate, but rather invites it.

Agenda 21/Sustainable Development

Sustainable development seeks to establish a welfare system which undermines free enterprise to establish this new economy of "social equity" (from Socialist/Communist regimes), a "new" economic system involving partnership of government and industry (from Fascist regimes), and environmnental justice trumping human need and humanitarian concerns. This modern war on Liberty fosters confusion in our schools and politics on the nature of "what is a moral government. It causes division by dividing us into groups: They assert "social justice" ahead of "equal justice", and to promote a "social welfare" that replaces free enterprise and private property. The Green Goal - the "Rio Earth Summit" 1992 ".. modern lifestyles and consumption patterns of the affluent middle class - involving high meat intake, use of fossil fuels, appliances, home and work air conditioning, and suburban housing are NOT sustainable" Think about that, above, each one of those commonly-accepted modern conveniences and what they mean for you and what their denial and control will mean for your life and living standard. What else is not sustainable according to the UN Global Bio-Diversity Assessment report?:

 ♦ Golf courses
 ♦ Ski Lodges
 ♦ Irrigation
 ♦ Monotheism (!)
 ♦ Commercial Agriculture
 ♦ the Family Unit (!)
 ♦ Private Property

- all are not sustainable!

Yes, the UN is committed to abolishing private property. The UN's 1976 Habitat One Conference report states:
  • "Private land ownership is also a principle instrument of wealth and therefore contributes to social injustice. Public control of land us is therefore indispensable."

Tenets of Sustainable Development:

Two major components of Sustainable Development are de-population/population control and bio-equity. As Cass Sunstein announced: "animals and all living creatures have equal rights to humans." We may laugh, but they are laughing harder as the re-shape the map of the United States in nefarious ways to meet the objectives of Sustainable Development.  (i.e. "The Map")

The political goal (in the name of 'climate change') is to have all population living in government-controlled urbanized enclaves, where private transportation choices will become a thing of the past. We are to live, work, and socialize within these cities, brought to you under the lexicon of 'smart growth'.

This can't be true, you may say. Yes it is. The San Joaquin Valley is being starved as their economy is shut-down to protect the smelt. Logging villages are being shut-down in Oregon to preserve the spotted owl (as if they could not fly anywhere else). Over 400,000 square miles of the United States is currently being „grabbed‟ by the Government in the name of the Agenda 21 Wildlands Project, referred to hereafter as TWP. (The Wildlands Project).

While our attentions were focused on "Cap and Trade" and "Universal Health Care" and "Bailouts", Cass Sunstein has added 681 new species to the Endangered Species List (and these are old statistics). Compare this to the 27 species added to the list over the previous decade. The end goal is a totally new design of these United States, one having no regard for individual liberties, and an entirely new map even lain out here showing how our country is to be organized, and how our population is to be re-distributed. We get to live in „Normal Use -Zones of Cooperation‟. (again, "The Map")

VIDEO: "America's Choice: Liberty or Sustainable Development"

The issue at hand,  "Who Decides?" Who decides the terms of your life, is it the individual, or is it the State?  This is the same issue at stake in RomneyCare.
Link?
#WWG1WGA

Trip

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Re: "Fifty Flavors of Democracy" (10th Amendment)
« Reply #35 on: August 07, 2013, 02:08:59 PM »
I did read all of that, and I should get a prize for doing so.

It looks to be nothing but cut & paste from a hard-core website.  Which is not evil or anything, just that you're delivering that instead of answering the questions I offered.

I still can't see any connection to Romney, except that you appear to be equating Romneycare, and his "50 flavors" comment, with the stakeholder councils.

I don't see it.  Especially without a rational explanation as to why/ how they're connected.

The stakeholder councils seem to be a corruptible process, but I'd need to see where they've been used to sell Agenda 21 stuff in America.  Or selling anything so far.  That would be useful info, for it to be a proper boogeyman.

And we all know that the UN does nothing but sell communism bullshit.  So that's nothing new / not news.......but what have they specifically accomplished with Agenda 21 in America  ?  What & where  ?

Actually, what was written  is from a PDF that I wrote up several years ago, based on the video lecture that I posted above.  I can link to it online, if you like. 

This is not some obscure, "hard-core" web site's extremism. This is the reality going on all around us, and seen everywhere, every day.

I expressed how they were connected in the two previous posts, but evidently you need a more direct bonk on the head.

They are connected in that both rely on the idea that the States (and localities) are somehow free from any obligation to recognize individual rights - right to property, and even right to self -- just as Romney did in his promotion of RomneyCare,  reducing citizen's "rights" to being able to flee from state to state like refugees in their own country.

Both Agenda 21 an RomneyCare rely on the same corruption of the 10th Amendment "states rights", which is nowhere what that 10th Amendment indicates!   Every American should be able to recognize this.

This is not an inconsequential distinction, but an enormous corruption of the Constitution, resulting in our country being able to institute Communist dictate, in disregard to freedoms and rights to property.

How you can ask what they've accomplished via this communist view in America, after all I've posted, after we hear daily in the news things like  some swale depression that only holds water runoff in the midst of floods is now a wetlands and the property owner cannot alter the entire property or else he is changing water flow, or that home owners cannot catch water coming off their own roofs, or are taxed for rain...   is astonishing.

Watch the video. Open the news.  Listen to our coal plants being methodically shut down, CO2 being declared a pollutant, and the government dictating what "green industries" our tax dollars will support.  Look at the two most recent justices appointed to the Supreme Court and recognize they both  openly indicated their intent to engage Social Justice over the rule of law.

It's all over the place, and it has one intent, the same intent as Romney's RomneyCare: to deprive us our freedoms, and even our ownership to our very selves, making us wards of the state, nothing but a unit in a collective.

 





Trip

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Re: "Fifty Flavors of Democracy" (10th Amendment)
« Reply #36 on: August 07, 2013, 02:15:31 PM »


Link?

VIDEO: "America's Choice: Liberty or Sustainable Development"

"The issue at hand,  'Who Decides?' Who decides the terms of your life, is it the individual, or is it the State?"  This is the same issue at stake in RomneyCare.



Notes taken from that video and elsewhere  America's Choice (PDF)





Offline AndyJackson

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Re: "Fifty Flavors of Democracy" (10th Amendment)
« Reply #37 on: August 07, 2013, 03:33:29 PM »
Both Agenda 21 an RomneyCare rely on the same corruption of the 10th Amendment "states rights", which is nowhere what that 10th Amendment indicates!   Every American should be able to recognize this.

I still see nothing that makes this claim obvious, or why every American should be able to recognize it.

As plain old conservatives, everybody on this board knows all about the various socialist, communist, progressive gambits going on around us.  We also know that there's a UN gaggle doing the same crap.

And you can hate Romneycare, Obamacare, whatever you want to hate, no complaint from me.  It is socialistic garbage, all of it.

I just don't see the conspiracy between states' rights and Romney's comment and the rest of it.  I think that's where you're jumping the shark / screwing the pooch / choking the chicken / etc.

Trip

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Re: "Fifty Flavors of Democracy" (10th Amendment)
« Reply #38 on: August 07, 2013, 03:56:57 PM »
I still see nothing that makes this claim obvious, or why every American should be able to recognize it.

As plain old conservatives, everybody on this board knows all about the various socialist, communist, progressive gambits going on around us.  We also know that there's a UN gaggle doing the same crap.

And you can hate Romneycare, Obamacare, whatever you want to hate, no complaint from me.  It is socialistic garbage, all of it.

I just don't see the conspiracy between states' rights and Romney's comment and the rest of it.  I think that's where you're jumping the shark / screwing the pooch / choking the chicken / etc.


If everyone in this board, those "plain old conservatives" can recognize that the socialist, communist, and progressive agnedas going on around us....  and the U.N. is doing the same crap....

... then what the flock is wrong with you when you see someone under the Republican flag doing that same crap, and denying citizens self-ownership? It is NOT somehow different!

Are you that big of a tool that you don't recognize that Romney was deliberately chosen to be the GOP candidate for this very reason,  even now, so long after that campaign, with the overall intention of prohibiting the Republicans from attacking ObamaCare?


Michael Shaw indicates in this lecture (13:55): "Today Americans know that something is wrong. What we need to do is understand where those problems originate. But to do so we need to start at the beginning, with an understanding of Liberty itself."

"You see, that Liberty presumes that government powers must be strictly limited in scope, and that the law be applied equally to each citizen.""



At this point, the speaker Michael Shaw shows the slide, above.  In the upper right hand corner of that slide, it recognizes for there to be liberty, there must be "self-ownership".

Seriously, are you implying that it is really all that far above "plain old conservatives" to recognize that if you don't have self-ownership, then there is no liberty whatsoever?

Both RomneyCare and ObamaCare, as well as Agenda-21,  are all about denying self-ownership.  There is no "one better the the other".   RomneyCare doesn't have some sort of bizarre license under "States Rights",
and people have no clue as to the Constitution if they believe it does.

Both RomneyCare and ObamaCare deny that self-0wnership, then immediately deny our own constitutional guarantee of "freedom of association, and then preceded to deny a full 80% of the Bill of Rights!

And somehow you think that ROMNEYCARE is supported by the Bill of Rights, and such a gross corruption of the 10th Amendment as "Fifty Flavors of Democracy"?  We're deliberately not even a Democracy!   

This is not some obscure argument unintelligible to the average mortal "plain conservative".  This is the very foundation of this country!

The problem is that what you're talking about IS NOT "STATES RIGHTS"! And you're far more than "screwing the pooch"; your ignorance, and that of the Republican party, is screwing the last of our freedoms.

Show me, please, where your corruption of "states rights" is somehow more important to this nation's founding principle  than "self-ownership"? 



« Last Edit: August 07, 2013, 04:01:42 PM by Trip »

Offline AndyJackson

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Re: "Fifty Flavors of Democracy" (10th Amendment)
« Reply #39 on: August 08, 2013, 08:01:46 AM »
You still haven't shown anything rational to connect Romney to the UN Agenda 21 conspiracy.

Yeah, he's a RINO essentially, and he was chosen by the MSM because they thought people would vote for the real Marxist in Obama, rather than a half-assed version.  This is something we need to change ourselves during the primary, not fixate and self-flagellate on conspiracy theories.

But he is a fiscal conservative in most respects, as shown by his successes on many fronts.  That's why he was worth voting for.

We would have benefited from a Romney victory in the most important sector, the economy.

Self ownership can't exist in a vacuum anymore than any other aspect of our original constitutional system.

There still will always be some balance between purely individual rights and ownership, states' needs to govern (called states' "rights" I suppose, vs. federal oversight), and the limited federal involvement.  No one of these can just override the others' important functions.

I do agree that private property, unassailable ownership, unencumbered estates, and so on....are the building blocks of our capitalism-based, democratic, republic.

Just not that we have to see states' rights as some kind of direct threat to it.  Only in the fantastic conspiracy theories.

As far as I understand, senators are supposed to advocate for independent states' rights and operations, and congresscritters for the concerns / rights of the individuals in their districts.  Yes...no....maybe  ?

Trip

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Re: "Fifty Flavors of Democracy" (10th Amendment)
« Reply #40 on: August 08, 2013, 08:41:22 AM »
You still haven't shown anything rational to connect Romney to the UN Agenda 21 conspiracy.

Try and follow along, slick. I didn't say Romney was connected to the Agenda 21 program (not a conspiracy).   What I indicated was that Romney's corruption of the 10th Amendment, allowing the local or state denial of individual rights, provides perfect cover for Agenda 21, and to no surprise  those promoting Agenda 21 use Romney's very argument of a corrupt 10th Amendment, and utter disregard for rights to property and self-determination.

Yeah, he's a RINO essentially, and he was chosen by the MSM because they thought people would vote for the real Marxist in Obama, rather than a half-assed version.  This is something we need to change ourselves during the primary, not fixate and self-flagellate on conspiracy theories.

If Romney is giving away our self-ownership by his promotion of ROmneyCare, and denying the GOPs chance to root out ObamaCare by his presence,  it matters not if we die a fast death or a slow death, the Republic is going to die.

But he is a fiscal conservative in most respects, as shown by his successes on many fronts.  That's why he was worth voting for.
He's not any sort  fiscal conservative if he advocates  social engineering and redistribution of wealth, and that is what both RomneyCare and ObamaCare do, even by the admission of the Democrats! 


We would have benefited from a Romney victory in the most important sector, the economy.

Self ownership can't exist in a vacuum anymore than any other aspect of our original constitutional system.

THe "most important sector of the economy is self-ownership! That is the entire basis of Capitalism - freedom of choice!    If Romney was such a champion of both the economy and health care, he would have nullified the federal law that insurance companies cannot trade across state borders.

What does that even mean "self ownership can't exist in a vacuum"? What you're essentially saying is we actually have rights of our own decisions, and to engage our own associations freely, when the government's say's it's okay?  What the hell is THAT?   

How exactly are you anything but a Progressive RINO yourself?



Quote from: AndyJackson link=topic=12125.msg140488#msg140488
There still will always be some balance between purely individual rights and ownership, states' needs to govern (called states' "rights" I suppose, vs. federal oversight), and the limited federal involvement.  No one of these can just override the others' important functions.

Uh, here's some fundamental constitutional principle for you to chew on:

ALL rights are "purely individual".   Rights are not collective,  they are the innate authority of the individuals over themselves,  and those rights cease when they conflict with another individual.  And these rights are recognized to be "unalienable", meaning unable to be forfeit or taken, not even if the individual themselves wants to give them up, or barter them.

"States rights" are not really rights at all, they are a misnomer for what the 10th Amendment actually addresses, which is "powers".   

Those Powers of the States are the result of state sovereignty.  However the curious thing about that State sovereignty is it's not  even really the state's own sovereignty either.  That State sovereignty is really the cumulative sovereignty of each and every citizen of the States.  The State is actually the agent of the sovereign citizenry. 

::THEREFORE:: by this facts above regarding  "rights" and sovereignty, the State government has absolute ZERO authority to act against the rights of the citizens, and deny those rights.  The State cannot act to do what the citizens themselves cannot act to do. Since those citizens cannot act to take other's property, or their freedom, or deny their self-ownership, as the rights of those citizens end when they conflict with another citizen's rights, then the State does not have that authority either!

  • At the Revolution, the sovereignty devolved on the people;
    and they are truly the sovereigns of the country,
    but they are sovereigns without subjects
    . . . .”

    Chief Justice John Jay
    Chisolm v Georgia, 179


I do agree that private property, unassailable ownership, unencumbered estates, and so on....are the building blocks of our capitalism-based, democratic, republic.

Just not that we have to see states' rights as some kind of direct threat to it.  Only in the fantastic conspiracy theories.

As far as I understand, senators are supposed to advocate for independent states' rights and operations, and congresscritters for the concerns / rights of the individuals in their districts.  Yes...no....maybe  ?

If "states rights" are not some kind of direct threat to individual rights, then why would you yourself choose to allow the denial of the most intimate and unalienable at all individual rights, and the source from which all rights stem, ownership of self?

It sure as hell seems like you don't really "agree" with private property, and unassailable ownership, because by your own declaration you believe that Romney forcing citizens to flee from state to state so as to maintain that self-ownership, is a legitimate interpretation of the 10th Amendment!

Sure, Senators are supposed to be representing State interest in the federal government, however that pretty much ended with the 17th Amendment and the popular election of Senators.   

But what the hell do Senators have to do with the States, or "a state" itself,  actually denying citizens their rights?    The Senators are only supposed to represent the States interests in the federal government, but that's not true anymore.

Offline AndyJackson

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Re: "Fifty Flavors of Democracy" (10th Amendment)
« Reply #41 on: August 08, 2013, 11:10:26 AM »
Sorry, I can't even make heads nor tails of your megalith posts anymore.

I told you what I believe, and you've dumped 1000 words of refuse that claims that I don't believe what I believe.

Nobody can have unfettered "self-ownership".  Whether you're talking about literally owning stuff, or owning one's actions and path through life, completely unfettered.

This would be anarchy.  It's also why textbook libertarianism is no more possible than textbook communism.

Even a conservative knows this, unless your brand of conservatism is to see a blue hat behind every bush that's about to carry you off to a FEMA camp.

I'm a conservative.  You appear to be Ron Paul, not even Rand.

Trip

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Re: "Fifty Flavors of Democracy" (10th Amendment)
« Reply #42 on: August 08, 2013, 03:33:36 PM »
Sorry, I can't even make heads nor tails of your megalith posts anymore.

I told you what I believe, and you've dumped 1000 words of refuse that claims that I don't believe what I believe.

Nobody can have unfettered "self-ownership".  Whether you're talking about literally owning stuff, or owning one's actions and path through life, completely unfettered.

Why not? Why can't  anyone, and everyone, have "unfettered" self-ownership? 

We conservatives often call tjat umfettered self-ownership  "personal responsibility", but it's actually more than that.    It's the blessing of freedom and being able to succeed without first having an obligation to the government.   

Your last sentence, above, is not only an irrational thought, it is an incomplete sentence.   "Self-ownership" is not about owning "stuff', it is about owning oneself.    Owning stuff is "stuff ownership".   

One "owns one's actions" because they own themselves, and are responsible.

These are fundamentals of Conservativsm, and you don't even recognize them possible. No wonder you're calling ideas that are not conservative at all, conservative.

This would be anarchy.  It's also why textbook libertarianism is no more possible than textbook communism.

WOW, you're mouthing Progressive ideology and actually imagine it Conservative.

It is NOT any sort of anarchy to own oneself, and be responsible for oneself. That's what is known as F-R-E-E-D-O-M !   

What you're  expressing, is actually feudalism, Progressivism being only a neo-feudalism, where the government actually gives us our identity by our obligation to that government, which in feudal times was known as ‘ligealty,’ ‘obedience,’ ‘fealty,’ and oblige,  or obligation to the King, and those above us representing the King.  Today's so-called "Progressives" express it as bureaucratic dictate, and a complex maze of laws.   

This has nothing whatsoever to do with "libertarianism", and not only is it more than possible, but it is the founding principle of our country!~   For it to be Libertarianism, it would have to involve a self-ownership in disregard of responsibility, elevated to being the most important thing,  without any personal responsibility, and even in disregard of outcome,  even in disregard of country itself.  Nowhere do I do that.

Even a conservative knows this, unless your brand of conservatism is to see a blue hat behind every bush that's about to carry you off to a FEMA camp.

I'm a conservative.  You appear to be Ron Paul, not even Rand.

No,  every conservative does NOT know that, much less believe that!   What you're espousing isn't even  conservative at all. It's nothing but Statism.

Which would tend to make you not any sort of conservative, but more of a RINO, or CINO. which explains why you stand with Romney, and believe that the States might deny self-ownership,  our very right to ourselves, and dictate the most intimate aspect of our lives.

"Uh, HELLO?  Can we have a 'price check' in Isle 5? " I need someone else to corroborate what I've written above. 

« Last Edit: August 08, 2013, 03:44:26 PM by Trip »

Offline AndyJackson

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Re: "Fifty Flavors of Democracy" (10th Amendment)
« Reply #43 on: August 08, 2013, 07:34:40 PM »
Conservatives have standards and order, as promulgated by police, military, religion, and so on.

Increasing levels of liberalism trend toward anarchy, as they hate and reject that order and its agents.

There's no way you don't get this / know this.

You're just being an obstinate, annoying knucklehead at this point, just for giggles apparently.  Just bringing Agenda 21 foolishness and pretending that it represents constitutional conservatism.

Nobody on this board will agree with that.  Which is why you beg them to, in closing.

Trip

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Re: "Fifty Flavors of Democracy" (10th Amendment)
« Reply #44 on: August 08, 2013, 10:34:10 PM »
Conservatives have standards and order, as promulgated by police, military, religion, and so on.

Increasing levels of liberalism trend toward anarchy, as they hate and reject that order and its agents.

There's no way you don't get this / know this.

You're just being an obstinate, annoying knucklehead at this point, just for giggles apparently.  Just bringing Agenda 21 foolishness and pretending that it represents constitutional conservatism.

Nobody on this board will agree with that.  Which is why you beg them to, in closing.

Among those standards and order is the foundation of this country: the shared individual rights, which are all contingent upon ownership of self.

What you're discussing is  nothing more than statist fascistic dictate, and is not at all "conservative".

If anyone on this board agrees with the corrupt idea that States have the legitimate authority to deny people their individual rights,  then they are a part of the problem, and not any part of the solution, as you yourself are.

At this point, you're quite clearly not sort ofconservative; you've established yourself to be a progressive statist "neocon".

More particularly, the Founders themselves did not agree with the idea that the States have any authority to abrogate or annul those individual rights which they recognized to be "unalienable".  (You really should look up that word.)

In point of fact,  the founders NEVER indicated it would be "infinitely preferable to have our rights denied locally, than have them denied by a federal government", which is a thoroughly ridiculous argument, but nonetheless the one you are making.


 

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