Ran into one of them, a special type, city dwelling, full-blown survivalist, with a "plan" - nuke, EMP, civil unrest, biological attack, wild animal invasion, racial wars, etc., he had a singular answer.  Get the hell outta dodge and head for Scott Co., Virginia.

Scott County Virginia, is RURAL - not the kind with suburban houses, this the inhospitable, bear eats you alive and nobody hears you screaming - rural.   So, unlike most survivalist types, he starts spilling his guts, telling me in detail, what he's planning on doing - like it hasn't crossed anyone else's mind before.

First sign of trouble, sprint like a rabbit to your 20 acres in the most inhospitable place, with the small hunting cabin on it, wait out the "storms" and then return to Norfolk, VA and ...?? well, whatever.

'"Why the heck would you want to run all the way out there?'  I asked.

"Nobody will bug me, the raging hoards will give up looking for food, armament and shelter - it's too far away for people."

But not yourself...  figured it'd easily take 2-3 tanks of gas to get there, IF the roads are still open.   While I was driving home from the weekend, 200 miles west of Norfolk, VA., I started noticing all the overhead power lines & bridges that crossed the roadway on Hwy 58... this poor guy would be LUCKY to get 20 miles... walking.   Let alone a hurricane knocking out power, and all that aerial crap all over the roadways.

"Do you already own land in Scott Co.?"  I asked?

"nope, looking for the ideal place" .... naturally, I thought.

What he described was something a Drone would easily find and take out, while the rest of us carried on as usual with our neighbors.... playing cards and enjoying a hearty BBQ or Pit pulled pork.

"What about your neighbors?   Do you know anyone, or how would you get to know them?",  I asked.

-crickets-

"Don't you think you'd be safer staying home in Norfolk with neighbors you know, than risking running 350 miles west over roads you wouldn't recognize, night or day, through towns you've never visited - with 10,000 other desperate people?  Trying to get to a hunting cabin that's either been the local 'sugar shack', after that we broke out all the windows, the dope heads used it for pot parties and then burnt down... what's left is infested with rats & insects - you're gonna go 300+ mile for that...?"

You get the idea, the notion somewhere else is safer, yet trying to get there would probably kill ya.  Just stay home, and sandbag your house, why expose yourself?   This is one of those "survivalist HAMs" - people who got their amateur radio license, because they heard or read somewhere the world is coming to an end, and it's time to save yourself.  Prepare for the end.  Accumulate THINGS instead of knowledge thru experience.  They naturally have grab-n-go radios, with their bug-out bags.  So my advice was...

Stay home, but if you -must- leave, tow your home with you, rather than HOPE your cabin in the woods is still standing, or no inhabited by someone just-like-you, armed and dangerous.   Forget the security alarm system, it isn't going to stop anyone if we're in a state of emergency, besides you won't be traveling far, just take your home with you.  Pull the motor home or travel trailer, onto your property and make sure your closest neighbors know it's YOU, and not some squatter.

Should you manage to buy remote land, take the time to get to know your neighbors - REALLY GOOD.   They will either become an asset, or a liability to your plans - figure you're on the wrong end to start with, and work from there to forge friendships.   In times of social unrest, those with the plan-in-place, probably won't be too welcoming to the total stranger who comes knocking on our door, looking for help.  Prepare for the long term, rather than a day or two.

So you got your land...
- Plant fruit trees, first, before anything else.   They take 4-5 years to see anything, get them started ASAP.
- Next, build your fences for livestock.  If you're moving there, great, if not, rent out the fenced pasture to a neighbor - it'll keep the grass mowed, if nothing else, or might help pay the property taxes.
- Put in your well an any underground watering system you have in mind, for livestock, or whatever.
- Figure out what & where your power is going to come from, wind, solar, micro-hydro, and any kind of fuels (hint, propane lasts forever, unlike Diesel or gas).  if you have livestock, and live on a mountain, chances are, you'll need power to move water.  Trusting surface water to be clean - well... you know how running water makes you want to pee?  It also works with deer, bear, raccoons, opossums & skunks who all live upstream from you.   Some of them are like Ducks, and like to crap in water, turning it greenish brown in no time.  We call that DEW - Duck-enhanced-water, it makes great fertilizer!  Just pump it through your sprinklers, we do!
- Figure out where you REALLY want to put your house, motorhome, trailer, cabin, etc.

Essentially you're becoming a farmer... but with just a little ingenuity, most of this stuff can be done in the city or suburbs, and you'll have plenty of opportunities to make good friends with the neighbors.... who are probably not such bad people after all.

Big stash of food, guns & ammo?  nope.  Gold and Silver, none.
Garden, yup.  Meat is right in the front yard, keeping the Orchard Grass mowed.  Chickens, Ducks & Turkeys are wandering around, eating bugs and delivering eggs during the warm months.  Wild game is quickly spotted by our emergency alert system, a pair of Dobermans who can outrun deer, and be on a bad guy faster than they can crawl back over that 5' mesh & electric fence.
Water comes out of the ground, or from a small spring, or off the roof rainwater collection system.

Bagging, nope!   Living on a farm isn't easy work, it's both expensive and laborious with the biggest reward on Thanksgiving, "By God's grace, we raised or hunted everything on this table."   Rambo farmers...?  never heard of them.

Seeing how I live extremely rural already, I guarantee you, if a moron like that showed up in my area, he'd most likely get shot for breaking and entering a neighbors home.

My recommendation for those that can't bail, but a shipping container and fill it with freeze dried food, or if you have the option to purchase land, buy four of these units measuring anywhere from 12' to 100' in length, drill a well and place them in a square around the well, cut a hole in one unit for entry to the center open area of the square, and cover it with trusses and a metal roof.

The beauty of this is fire proof, several thousand feet of protected storage space, a livable and virtually impermeable space with a lot of room for development.

This is my plan for Idaho.

Quote from: Solar on April 11, 2016, 12:32:16 PM
Seeing how I live extremely rural already, I guarantee you, if a moron like that showed up in my area, he'd most likely get shot for breaking and entering a neighbors home.

My recommendation for those that can't bail, but a shipping container and fill it with freeze dried food, or if you have the option to purchase land, buy four of these units measuring anywhere from 12' to 100' in length, drill a well and place them in a square around the well, cut a hole in one unit for entry to the center open area of the square, and cover it with trusses and a metal roof.

The beauty of this is fire proof, several thousand feet of protected storage space, a livable and virtually impermeable space with a lot of room for development.

This is my plan for Idaho.

We saw a video clip of a guy who did something similar in New Mexico, looked pretty interesting.
The down side however, the shipping containers have gone way up in cost - everyone else figured out how versatile they are.

Wondering if you loosely studded out the inside, and then spray foamed the whole works, to bond the studs to the metal walls... might be a way to have a nice insulated, finished wall (run all the electrical wiring, Ethernet and fiber).

Regarding the city-guy-running-like-a-rabbit-to-da-hills, A day or two of that nonsense, after the roads were blocked by downed trees and burnt out vehicles, the locals along the roads will start picking them off like ducks in an arcade.  Sending a message back to the rest of the city folks, we're not stupid and you're not welcome out here.  Plan on staying where you are, and doing your part to quell the civil unrest.  Come knocking on my door, and my dogs will treat you like a chew toy, shaking your stuffing all over the front yard.  Farmers are accustom to castrating & butchering animals, the sight of blood is a common occurrence.

The only way out of town I know of, is fly... and it better be high enough to not get shot at.  Don't know how an ultra-lite would do at a couple thousand feet, it might be kinda cold.

Another thought... these guys with HAM radios, who manage to pass a written test, but never gather up the courage to use them, are USELESS in an emergency.  Like owning a gun and neglecting to practice.  A sophisticated piece of electronic gear, takes time to learn how to set up, figure out where to operate on the bands, and actually learn how to simply communicate.  It's a great hobby which has undergone a recent influx of non-mentored (Elmered), folks.  Seeing new HAMs get frustrated at all the buttons and dials, ready to quit, and then someone sits down with them, and shows them how to listen, tune, call, etc., and see those faces smile - it's rewarding for all, and any experienced HAM can do it, no matter how old / young they are. 

We visited several a "field day" stations a couple of years ago, and nobody was operating... radios on, not tuned into anything, just static for the most part.  A couple of minutes of that, and the four of us fanned out, to get-them-on-the-air.  Within 1/2 an hour, we made a few contacts, and got the newbies going - the whole place was bristling with excitement.  One of those things, you cannot learn from books, videos - it's just first hand experience with someone who is experienced.  And if they're experienced contesters, you'll stand the best chance of learning how to operate in less than idea conditions.  There's nothing like a bunch of guys standing around, looking stupid, and a nine year old girl, takes command of the microphone and airwaves.  Sad to say, of the 5 field day locations we visited, only 1 was really on the air when we got there.  Operating is learned through experience, and it isn't painful.  A HAM radio contesting and passing traffic messages is the best way to practice operating, IMO.  Setting up in a park or non-familiar environment is a great way test what you think you know about setup & operating.  If it takes more than 30 minutes to get active on the air ... figure out what you're doing wrong, 5-10 minutes is good.

One thing for sure, the folks who own and not operate HAM gear, may as well empty it out of their bug-out bags, it's just dead weight.

Quote from: Hoofer on April 11, 2016, 03:19:24 PM
We saw a video clip of a guy who did something similar in New Mexico, looked pretty interesting.
The down side however, the shipping containers have gone way up in cost - everyone else figured out how versatile they are.

Wondering if you loosely studded out the inside, and then spray foamed the whole works, to bond the studs to the metal walls... might be a way to have a nice insulated, finished wall (run all the electrical wiring, Ethernet and fiber).

Regarding the city-guy-running-like-a-rabbit-to-da-hills, A day or two of that nonsense, after the roads were blocked by downed trees and burnt out vehicles, the locals along the roads will start picking them off like ducks in an arcade.  Sending a message back to the rest of the city folks, we're not stupid and you're not welcome out here.  Plan on staying where you are, and doing your part to quell the civil unrest.  Come knocking on my door, and my dogs will treat you like a chew toy, shaking your stuffing all over the front yard.  Farmers are accustom to castrating & butchering animals, the sight of blood is a common occurrence.

The only way out of town I know of, is fly... and it better be high enough to not get shot at.  Don't know how an ultra-lite would do at a couple thousand feet, it might be kinda cold.

Another thought... these guys with HAM radios, who manage to pass a written test, but never gather up the courage to use them, are USELESS in an emergency.  Like owning a gun and neglecting to practice.  A sophisticated piece of electronic gear, takes time to learn how to set up, figure out where to operate on the bands, and actually learn how to simply communicate.  It's a great hobby which has undergone a recent influx of non-mentored (Elmered), folks.  Seeing new HAMs get frustrated at all the buttons and dials, ready to quit, and then someone sits down with them, and shows them how to listen, tune, call, etc., and see those faces smile - it's rewarding for all, and any experienced HAM can do it, no matter how old / young they are. 

We visited several a "field day" stations a couple of years ago, and nobody was operating... radios on, not tuned into anything, just static for the most part.  A couple of minutes of that, and the four of us fanned out, to get-them-on-the-air.  Within 1/2 an hour, we made a few contacts, and got the newbies going - the whole place was bristling with excitement.  One of those things, you cannot learn from books, videos - it's just first hand experience with someone who is experienced.  And if they're experienced contesters, you'll stand the best chance of learning how to operate in less than idea conditions.  There's nothing like a bunch of guys standing around, looking stupid, and a nine year old girl, takes command of the microphone and airwaves.  Sad to say, of the 5 field day locations we visited, only 1 was really on the air when we got there.  Operating is learned through experience, and it isn't painful.  A HAM radio contesting and passing traffic messages is the best way to practice operating, IMO.  Setting up in a park or non-familiar environment is a great way test what you think you know about setup & operating.  If it takes more than 30 minutes to get active on the air ... figure out what you're doing wrong, 5-10 minutes is good.

One thing for sure, the folks who own and not operate HAM gear, may as well empty it out of their bug-out bags, it's just dead weight.

It's the plan, and no the outer units are strictly for storage, you insulate the walls inside the area living space which can be huge if you have 100' storage containers, slap on 8" foam blocks and you can heat the place with a match.
Depending on the road, I hope to at least bring in the 40' units, where I live now all the roads can handle is 20' due to sharp turns.
But a 40'x40' is more than enough room for a family of four, and since it's just the two of us, it'll be huge.
Totally solar and miles from anyone is the way I like it.

Quote from: Solar on April 11, 2016, 07:43:36 PM
It's the plan, and no the outer units are strictly for storage, you insulate the walls inside the area living space which can be huge if you have 100' storage containers, slap on 8" foam blocks and you can heat the place with a match.
Depending on the road, I hope to at least bring in the 40' units, where I live now all the roads can handle is 20' due to sharp turns.
But a 40'x40' is more than enough room for a family of four, and since it's just the two of us, it'll be huge.
Totally solar and miles from anyone is the way I like it.

I envy you!   We don't even have yard lights, the neighbor's do, 1/2 mile away - that annoys me in the winter months, seeing those things.  I'd rather not hear a dog, coyote, bobcat, etc., just quiet.

Wouldn't you be moving to a much colder climate?

There's a joint out here that's rolling in a bunch of "manufactured" tiny homes, cute little things, 8-10' wide and 20-30' long, on a dual or triple axle trailer.  I could see something like that for sleeping/living quarters, and all those storage containers for everything else.

Quote from: Hoofer on April 14, 2016, 02:46:30 PM
I envy you!   We don't even have yard lights, the neighbor's do, 1/2 mile away - that annoys me in the winter months, seeing those things.  I'd rather not hear a dog, coyote, bobcat, etc., just quiet.

Wouldn't you be moving to a much colder climate?

There's a joint out here that's rolling in a bunch of "manufactured" tiny homes, cute little things, 8-10' wide and 20-30' long, on a dual or triple axle trailer.  I could see something like that for sleeping/living quarters, and all those storage containers for everything else.

That's the beauty of living in forested terrain, you don't have to look at your neighbor.
But yeah, it's about 10 degrees cooler across the board, but I prefer cold.
I looked into the manufactured housing and found it's probably cheaper to build yourself since they aren't all that well insulted.

Quote from: Solar on April 14, 2016, 04:40:56 PM
That's the beauty of living in forested terrain, you don't have to look at your neighbor.
But yeah, it's about 10 degrees cooler across the board, but I prefer cold.
I looked into the manufactured housing and found it's probably cheaper to build yourself since they aren't all that well insulted.

Same here, I prefer cold, but not snow - hate moving that stuff, it's like trying to blow into the wind to change it's direction.

We got a guy at work who's building new, going the manufactured route, instead of 2x4 walls, they have a 2x6 or 2x8 option - quite an improvement from my manufactured home.  Obviously not talking TRAILERS, but these are homes build in a climate controlled environment, in pieces, and moved, reassembled onsite.

As I said in another post, this guy who buys run down places, remodels and insulates with foam - wow, talk about quiet and tight!  Good case for an air-exchange system, but as you said, heat with a match.


Are you thinking of passive solar or active solar for heat?  Maybe something could be incorporated on the outside of a south facing container?  Paint it black, stand off some insulated glazing and vents?  Add a long roof line to reduce summer heating?

Quote from: Hoofer on April 15, 2016, 11:00:06 AM
Same here, I prefer cold, but not snow - hate moving that stuff, it's like trying to blow into the wind to change it's direction.

We got a guy at work who's building new, going the manufactured route, instead of 2x4 walls, they have a 2x6 or 2x8 option - quite an improvement from my manufactured home.  Obviously not talking TRAILERS, but these are homes build in a climate controlled environment, in pieces, and moved, reassembled onsite.

As I said in another post, this guy who buys run down places, remodels and insulates with foam - wow, talk about quiet and tight!  Good case for an air-exchange system, but as you said, heat with a match.


Are you thinking of passive solar or active solar for heat?  Maybe something could be incorporated on the outside of a south facing container?  Paint it black, stand off some insulated glazing and vents?  Add a long roof line to reduce summer heating?

Nah, I'll buy a couple of 1000 gallon propane tanks, heat with wood, but if I do this right, it shouldn't cost much to heat.
I plan on 8" foam 8x12' panels of Styrofoam, much cheaper than blowing in your own, about $30.0 a sheet, $10.0 used, they weigh nothing, and you merely glue paneling over them and you have a finished room in a day.

The neighbor bought one of those 2x8 homes in a box, once everything was in place, it was up and he was living in it in 3 days, and yes, it was nice, but it still cost 200 grand when he was done.
I don't need anything that nice, I can live in a storage shed and be more than comfortable, I just want sound proof, safe and fire proof.
Yeah, I already have all the damn solar water crap, had it for more than 20 years and still haven't installed it.

My propane use is around 300 gallons every two years, and it only costs about $400.0 to fill a 500 gallon tank, and that's my only actual bill, and I imagine it'll be even less in Idaho if I build what I want.

Quote from: Solar on April 15, 2016, 11:20:12 AM
Nah, I'll buy a couple of 1000 gallon propane tanks, heat with wood, but if I do this right, it shouldn't cost much to heat.
I plan on 8" foam 8x12' panels of Styrofoam, much cheaper than blowing in your own, about $30.0 a sheet, $10.0 used, they weigh nothing, and you merely glue paneling over them and you have a finished room in a day.

The neighbor bought one of those 2x8 homes in a box, once everything was in place, it was up and he was living in it in 3 days, and yes, it was nice, but it still cost 200 grand when he was done.
I don't need anything that nice, I can live in a storage shed and be more than comfortable, I just want sound proof, safe and fire proof.
Yeah, I already have all the damn solar water crap, had it for more than 20 years and still haven't installed it.

My propane use is around 300 gallons every two years, and it only costs about $400.0 to fill a 500 gallon tank, and that's my only actual bill, and I imagine it'll be even less in Idaho if I build what I want.

We finished a room in the basement that way, 2" foam glued to the wall, ran all the wiring in the foam, and glued the paneling to it.  Building Inspector said he'd never seen anything like it before & tried to peel some of the foam sheeting off the wall - nope, liquid nails over cinder block is really tough stuff!  very quiet room.

For solar I was thinking passive or forced hot air system, literally paint the southern side of it black, cover it with Poly and add a couple of air vents. 

Quote from: Hoofer on April 15, 2016, 04:29:37 PM
We finished a room in the basement that way, 2" foam glued to the wall, ran all the wiring in the foam, and glued the paneling to it.  Building Inspector said he'd never seen anything like it before & tried to peel some of the foam sheeting off the wall - nope, liquid nails over cinder block is really tough stuff!  very quiet room.

For solar I was thinking passive or forced hot air system, literally paint the southern side of it black, cover it with Poly and add a couple of air vents.

eXCELLENT IDEA ASSUMING YOU'LL HAVE SUN EXPOSURE ON THE HOUSE.
wE'LL HIDE IN THE FOREST AND RUN THE POWER FROM SOLAR FROM A CLEARING.

Damn caps lock...

Speaking of Internet ... wired or wireless, I bumped into a former NSA guy in Norfolk, VA.  After a few minutes, the conversation got on to wiretapping, surveillance stuff - the covert kind.

I mentioned in some areas, my cell phone has this echo (he grinned & nodded)... guess the technology has a little retrieve & forward latency, eh?  Kinda blows to think there is no private method of conversation, anywhere.

He mentioned the unarmed drone flying around the area, if I noticed it.

"What!?" - don't know why I asked, I should have known, but did anyway.

"....everything, is being mopped up, (recorded) sent in for analysis.  All cellular, RF, etc., they can take it all now, and do.  That drone(s) are bristling with electronic gear, get it up in the air a little ways, and it easily covers a big area."

"Is that because of the Naval Base?"

"Pretty much, looking for the bad guys, but they'll fly them anywhere."

Granted I condensed a 20 minute conversation, and left out quite a bit - you wouldn't want to know, if you like to get a good night sleep or sunbathe in the back yard.  We have the technology, and it is being used - for legitimate reasons, all legal, like a giant electronic vacuum in the sky.

This high-tech spy stuff has been around a LONG time.  While visiting an electronic genius/geek guy back in the early '90s, he fired up a used-but-still-good CRT duplicator (for lack of a better name), just for fun.  Every CRT puts out a little bit of RF, so with the right gear, you (we) could just pointed an antenna, and tuned in, to see what the neighbors were watching.  It didn't work past a city block, but actually did sync and drew on the screen the TV channel they had on, with the screen rolling occasionally as sync dropped - without something really interesting to struggle to watch, why bother!  I don't know if they have a LED monitor duplicator, maybe, some of they really are electrically noisy.

So, I kinda like the big shipping container Faraday box, my life is quite boring, and I kinda like to keep it that way.  If someone really wants to "come in" electronically, I'd rather have them knock on the door and introduce themselves.  The dobermans would love to give their 'hand a shake'.

Quote from: Hoofer on April 18, 2016, 04:54:35 PM
Speaking of Internet ... wired or wireless, I bumped into a former NSA guy in Norfolk, VA.  After a few minutes, the conversation got on to wiretapping, surveillance stuff - the covert kind.

I mentioned in some areas, my cell phone has this echo (he grinned & nodded)... guess the technology has a little retrieve & forward latency, eh?  Kinda blows to think there is no private method of conversation, anywhere.

He mentioned the unarmed drone flying around the area, if I noticed it.

"What!?" - don't know why I asked, I should have known, but did anyway.

"....everything, is being mopped up, (recorded) sent in for analysis.  All cellular, RF, etc., they can take it all now, and do.  That drone(s) are bristling with electronic gear, get it up in the air a little ways, and it easily covers a big area."

"Is that because of the Naval Base?"

"Pretty much, looking for the bad guys, but they'll fly them anywhere."

Granted I condensed a 20 minute conversation, and left out quite a bit - you wouldn't want to know, if you like to get a good night sleep or sunbathe in the back yard.  We have the technology, and it is being used - for legitimate reasons, all legal, like a giant electronic vacuum in the sky.

This high-tech spy stuff has been around a LONG time.  While visiting an electronic genius/geek guy back in the early '90s, he fired up a used-but-still-good CRT duplicator (for lack of a better name), just for fun.  Every CRT puts out a little bit of RF, so with the right gear, you (we) could just pointed an antenna, and tuned in, to see what the neighbors were watching.  It didn't work past a city block, but actually did sync and drew on the screen the TV channel they had on, with the screen rolling occasionally as sync dropped - without something really interesting to struggle to watch, why bother!  I don't know if they have a LED monitor duplicator, maybe, some of they really are electrically noisy.

So, I kinda like the big shipping container Faraday box, my life is quite boring, and I kinda like to keep it that way.  If someone really wants to "come in" electronically, I'd rather have them knock on the door and introduce themselves.  The dobermans would love to give their 'hand a shake'.

No doubt every word/text is being recorded for posterity, with maybe 0.0001% being actually monitored by a human.
So with that, I approach life with an "Fuck You" attitude when I speak, whether it's written or verbal, I throw PC out the window and dare anyone to confront me over something I've said, because the day we self censor, the enemy has won.

Quote from: Solar on April 18, 2016, 06:05:41 PM
No doubt every word/text is being recorded for posterity, with maybe 0.0001% being actually monitored by a human.
So with that, I approach life with an "Fuck You" attitude when I speak, whether it's written or verbal, I throw PC out the window and dare anyone to confront me over something I've said, because the day we self censor, the enemy has won.

The only self-censoring I do is for just one reason - to be more readable.  Power of the pen - I can appreciate people like Quiller. 

Yes, it's all recorded, and probably compared to other data to track trends and build psychological profiles.
"Aha!  Another patriotic American - better put him on a no-fly list!"


Was thinking about your container idea - with a couple of baffles, even with windows it might actually be quite livable and EMP proof.  I guess it would depend on whether or not that energy wavelength is easily reflected, and what type of material absorbs it.  I could really find a good use for an EMP radio room for HAM radio stuff...

The Levin interview also mentioned most ground will absorb and dissipate an EMP pulse.  With that in mind, any root cellar might be a perfect place to store food, and sensitive electronic backup gear.

Quote from: Hoofer on April 21, 2016, 06:19:01 PM

Was thinking about your container idea - with a couple of baffles, even with windows it might actually be quite livable and EMP proof.

I like to watch those DIY shows.  I've seen them convert containers into living spaces.  Doesn't seem to be that hard to do, and they usually use metal roofs.

Quote from: Dori on April 22, 2016, 07:48:34 AM


I like to watch those DIY shows.  I've seen them convert containers into living spaces.  Doesn't seem to be that hard to do, and they usually use metal roofs.

My only beef is they're 8' wide.  By the time I got around to cutting and welding them together, I'd probably be better off building from panels.