Speaking of Survival Guns...

Started by Hoofer, June 23, 2016, 06:49:48 PM

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Hoofer

Every gun, has a really good purpose, and some uses it's really unsuited for.  Then there are the favorites, we collect them, even if they're well past their glory days.

I once had a Savage 250-3000, lever action, break down - shot 5-6" groups at 100 yards, even if clamped in a vice - the barrel had 3 rings in it, because someone probably fired it with snow in it.  Wanted to get it rebarreled, but was told to get rid of it.  Sold it.  Saw a Savage 300 awhile back, way too much $, but thought, maybe it could be chambered for a 308...?  Oh well, no deal.  I don't know what I would have done with it, Meh, just a neat looking lever action.
All animals are created equal; Some just take longer to cook.   Survival is keeping an eye on those around you...

Hoofer

Nothing like crappy internet - the rest of my post was truncated.

---------------

Instead of buying sentimental -junk- or some super expensive, EMP proof, lazer guided, UV & salt water resistant, multipurpose, work-of-art....

Any recommendations for guns (or knives) in general - what is your choice, if you could only pick 2 of anything?
All animals are created equal; Some just take longer to cook.   Survival is keeping an eye on those around you...

jdzbrain

Quote from: Hoofer on June 24, 2016, 07:16:22 AM
Nothing like crappy internet - the rest of my post was truncated.

---------------

Instead of buying sentimental -junk- or some super expensive, EMP proof, lazer guided, UV & salt water resistant, multipurpose, work-of-art....

Any recommendations for guns (or knives) in general - what is your choice, if you could only pick 2 of anything?
I take it that's a question to anyone Hoofer.  So...I'm anyone.  ;~)

My theory on survival guns is that it should be accurate, dependable, easy to find or load ammo for and the ammo should be light enough to carry MANY rounds if need be.  I also like to have my side arm and rifle to be chambered in the same caliber so that I only have to carry one caliber of ammo.  That said, my favorite is the 357 magnum.  But, 44 magnums or 45 long colts...even 30 carbine will do too.  I just prefer 357s. 

If you think about it, the people that HAD to use firearms to actually survive did the same thing.  Before modern center fire ammo came into use, frontiersman generally tried to carry a .45 cal pistol and a .45 cal long rifle so that they only needed to carry one size ball.  And they'd do the same thing with 36 cal or 50 cal.  Just depended on what part of the country they lived in and what they needed to hunt or kill to survive.  After the advent of modern cartridges, most folks who could, did switch over to 45 long colt and carried a handgun and Winchester that were both chambered for that round.

So...I carry on that tradition.  Only in 357 magnum.  My go-to in a survival situation would be a nylon tactical belt with 40 rounds of 180 grain hollow point 357s in the belt loops for a lever action Rossi 92 (w/scout scope) and 4 pouches with 2 speed loaders each (8 total) full of 180 grain hollow points for a 6" Smith and Wesson 686 in the holster on that belt.  So that's 86 rounds of kill um all and let God sort it out on my hip if it became necessary.  ;~)

Wheel guns and lever actions are as dependable as they come.  Big bore and magnum pistol ammo is light and compact to carry, VERY accurate and delivers HUGE amounts of energy to whatever it hits.  Ground hog or Grizz...don't much matter.  ;~)

If I were the kind of guy that likes 44 magnum as my primary, Rossi and others make those as well and the sidearm would be a Ruger Redhawk...not super, just Redhawk, double action revolver with a 4 inch barrel.  But I like the S&W 44's I've shot too.  Just never got around to buying one. 

ANY....way.  That's my philosophy on survival guns.  But the truth is, a shotgun is about as versatile and effective a gun as there is on the planet.  You can carry shot for small game, slugs for varmints that can kill ya but don't shoot back and buck shot for varmints that DO shoot back.  ;~)

Oh, and if you're talking about a bug out bag kind of gun, there are several pack guns out there that are double barrel, over and unders in 22, 22mag and the like on top and 410 on the bottom.  Ammo is light and easy to find...perfect for stashing in a pack and disappearing into the woods when the plop hits the prop. 

As far as knives...I make my own.  Have been for nearly 40 years.  I ONLY carry carbon steel knives.  High carbon steel makes LOTS of sparks for a fire.  ;~)

No stainless, no fancy "Damascus" steels, just a good, honest W-1 carbon steel drop point skinner with at least a 4" blade.  In my experience, W-1 is easier to sharpen and holds an edge better than just about anything else and they are less expensive.  It needs a good finger guard to avoid your hand slipping onto the blade.  It should have a nice smooth, but pronounced swell at the hilt so it won't easily come out of your hand and a palm swell to avoid hot spots when you work with it.  No square edges.

There ya have it.  My 2 cents.  And that's just about exactly what it's worth.  ;~)
"I am prepared to prove at any moment that I am not the man my education has conspired to make of me"

---Fanz Kafka

Possum

Quote from: Hoofer on June 24, 2016, 07:16:22 AM
Nothing like crappy internet - the rest of my post was truncated.

---------------

Instead of buying sentimental -junk- or some super expensive, EMP proof, lazer guided, UV & salt water resistant, multipurpose, work-of-art....

Any recommendations for guns (or knives) in general - what is your choice, if you could only pick 2 of anything?
Just two???? :lol: It will take all day to pick out just two. But, if we are talking "when shtf"and are expecting this to be protection against two legged varmints i would go with dependability and high capacity magazines. Personally I would grab the sig 226, and the rock river. the sig is 9mm and has a 20 and 16 mag, the rr is a 223/556, has a couple of 30 mags. Both cartridges are very popular, and probable to find on deceased bad guys. :thumbup: The guns themselves are very dependable and accurate, very easy to take care of. As for knifes, I would grab my hunting/skinning fixed and one of the folders for items to cut that I don't want to use my hunting knife one.


Forgot to add, first thing I would grab after the guns is the survival bag, everyone should have one ready.

Hoofer

Quote from: jdzbrain on June 27, 2016, 09:59:37 AM
I take it that's a question to anyone Hoofer.  So...I'm anyone.  ;~)

My theory on survival guns is that it should be accurate, dependable, easy to find or load ammo for and the ammo should be light enough to carry MANY rounds if need be.  I also like to have my side arm and rifle to be chambered in the same caliber so that I only have to carry one caliber of ammo.  That said, my favorite is the 357 magnum.  But, 44 magnums or 45 long colts...even 30 carbine will do too.  I just prefer 357s. 

If you think about it, the people that HAD to use firearms to actually survive did the same thing.  Before modern center fire ammo came into use, frontiersman generally tried to carry a .45 cal pistol and a .45 cal long rifle so that they only needed to carry one size ball.  And they'd do the same thing with 36 cal or 50 cal.  Just depended on what part of the country they lived in and what they needed to hunt or kill to survive.  After the advent of modern cartridges, most folks who could, did switch over to 45 long colt and carried a handgun and Winchester that were both chambered for that round.

So...I carry on that tradition.  Only in 357 magnum.  My go-to in a survival situation would be a nylon tactical belt with 40 rounds of 180 grain hollow point 357s in the belt loops for a lever action Rossi 92 (w/scout scope) and 4 pouches with 2 speed loaders each (8 total) full of 180 grain hollow points for a 6" Smith and Wesson 686 in the holster on that belt.  So that's 86 rounds of kill um all and let God sort it out on my hip if it became necessary.  ;~)

Wheel guns and lever actions are as dependable as they come.  Big bore and magnum pistol ammo is light and compact to carry, VERY accurate and delivers HUGE amounts of energy to whatever it hits.  Ground hog or Grizz...don't much matter.  ;~)

If I were the kind of guy that likes 44 magnum as my primary, Rossi and others make those as well and the sidearm would be a Ruger Redhawk...not super, just Redhawk, double action revolver with a 4 inch barrel.  But I like the S&W 44's I've shot too.  Just never got around to buying one. 

ANY....way.  That's my philosophy on survival guns.  But the truth is, a shotgun is about as versatile and effective a gun as there is on the planet.  You can carry shot for small game, slugs for varmints that can kill ya but don't shoot back and buck shot for varmints that DO shoot back.  ;~)

Oh, and if you're talking about a bug out bag kind of gun, there are several pack guns out there that are double barrel, over and unders in 22, 22mag and the like on top and 410 on the bottom.  Ammo is light and easy to find...perfect for stashing in a pack and disappearing into the woods when the plop hits the prop. 

As far as knives...I make my own.  Have been for nearly 40 years.  I ONLY carry carbon steel knives.  High carbon steel makes LOTS of sparks for a fire.  ;~)

No stainless, no fancy "Damascus" steels, just a good, honest W-1 carbon steel drop point skinner with at least a 4" blade.  In my experience, W-1 is easier to sharpen and holds an edge better than just about anything else and they are less expensive.  It needs a good finger guard to avoid your hand slipping onto the blade.  It should have a nice smooth, but pronounced swell at the hilt so it won't easily come out of your hand and a palm swell to avoid hot spots when you work with it.  No square edges.

There ya have it.  My 2 cents.  And that's just about exactly what it's worth.  ;~)

I like that idea, handgun and rifle uses the same ammunition - but isn't that kinda weak for a rifle?
Going to look into it....  Thanks for the suggestion!

As far as the knives, my biggest problem is keeping them sharp and rust free.
All animals are created equal; Some just take longer to cook.   Survival is keeping an eye on those around you...

Hoofer

Quote from: s3779m on June 27, 2016, 01:42:00 PM
Just two???? :lol: It will take all day to pick out just two. But, if we are talking "when shtf"and are expecting this to be protection against two legged varmints i would go with dependability and high capacity magazines. Personally I would grab the sig 226, and the rock river. the sig is 9mm and has a 20 and 16 mag, the rr is a 223/556, has a couple of 30 mags. Both cartridges are very popular, and probable to find on deceased bad guys. :thumbup: The guns themselves are very dependable and accurate, very easy to take care of. As for knifes, I would grab my hunting/skinning fixed and one of the folders for items to cut that I don't want to use my hunting knife one.


Forgot to add, first thing I would grab after the guns is the survival bag, everyone should have one ready.

Also makes sense, stick with the common stuff, easy to find ammo - I hear ya on the reliability part, there is nothing more useless than a magazine which will not feed consistently.   The Marlin 99A's (lever action), absolutely hate those 22 cal hyper-velocity, odd-tipped shaped bullets, had the same feeding problem with Ruger 10/22's.

Really mixed experiences with 223 ammo, the heavy stuff 69 grain takes a really rapid twist to stabilize (or it literally tumbles), and the lighter stuff 45-50 grain stuff gets less accurate (or literally blows up down range) with a fast twist.  (69 grain is/was commonly used for HP rifle competition in AR-15s).  Just occurred to me, 223 ammo is the only stuff that seemed to be so sensitive to twist rate.

Favorite knife is not made anymore, a Camillus model 893.  A rubber handled, 3 folding blades, a regular looking blade, bone saw, and gut hook type blades, all which lock in place.  Kept it sharp for deer hunting, and it made field dressing quick.  It's too short for butchering, cutting up roasts, etc., but for winter or summer, wet or dry, that square, checkered, rubber handle would "stick" in gloves or bare hands and never slip or twist in your hand - really liked that.   My knife is about 30yrs old, it's only been used for field dressing game... not too useful for much else...

How long is your fixed knife (blade inches), and is it useful for anything else, if necessary?
All animals are created equal; Some just take longer to cook.   Survival is keeping an eye on those around you...

jdzbrain

Quote from: Hoofer on June 27, 2016, 05:17:06 PM
I like that idea, handgun and rifle uses the same ammunition - but isn't that kinda weak for a rifle?
Going to look into it....  Thanks for the suggestion!

As far as the knives, my biggest problem is keeping them sharp and rust free.
Nope.  Not weak.  A 180 grain, .358 diameter (357/38) going 1200 fps (that's from a 4" pistol) imparts a HUGE amount of energy to whatever it hits.  As a matter of fact, one of the hottest barbie doll guns (AR type black guns) going right now is the 300 blackout.  Basically a 223 brass, necked up to accept 30 caliber round so you can hunt bigger game.  If you load 357 magnums with bullets that weigh the same as the 300 blackout round, the velocities are similar and the energy will actually be higher at distance for a 357.  Of course, the blackout will be more ballistically stable at longer distances because it's a true rifle round.  That long, boat tail shape rifle rounds have.

That said, my little Rossi will cut sub 1 inch groups all day long at fifty yards with my hand loads.  So it wouldn't be any stretch to see one grouping sub 3 inch groups at a hundred yards.  That extra 10 or 12 inches of barrel length adds several hundred feet per second to the advertised velocity of any round you shoot and a lot of accuracy.  I wouldn't hesitate for a second to take deer or elk out to 100 yards with it.  And you are asking about survival rigs, not sniper rounds, which the 300 blackout ain't suited for that either.

And the same thing is true with 44 magnums or 45 long colt.  I have hand load, 300 grain 44 magnums that group 1 1/2 inches at 75 yards out of a Ruger Redhawk revolver with a scope on it.  You can imagine what those loads would do out of a rifle with another 10 or 12 inches of barrel. 

By the way, I bought Rossi because of the price, but Henry makes a good rifle too.  Just too pricey for me.  Rossi IS a little finicky until it's broken in.  That's not a problem with Henry, so if you're the kind of fella that doesn't like tinkering with guns, for a few hundred bucks more, they might be a better choice.  And Henry is side eject, so you can use regular scopes on them.  Rossi's are top eject, so you have to use long eye relief scopes on them.  But they do come pre-drilled under the rear sight to accept a scope rail.

How's that...too much information?  ;~)

Just incase ya didn't catch it, I LIKE guns.  LOL

Been shooting and hunting...literally since I was old enough to walk.  Nearly 60 years now.  Wow...I'm gettin' old!  ;~0

Oh, and on knives.  Carbon steel rust.  Just a fact, but if you buy carbon steel...make SURE that it is polished to a mirror finish.  It won't stop it from rusting if you neglect it, but it WILL slow it down.  The mirror finish doesn't give rust a place to start.  They turn black before they rust and it will polish right off with a little elbow grease and metal polish.  The sharpening part...just takes practice, but a good, properly heat treated (quenched and tempered) carbon steel knife will hold it's edge longer than stainless any day and it's a HECK of a lot easier to re-sharpen.
"I am prepared to prove at any moment that I am not the man my education has conspired to make of me"

---Fanz Kafka

Possum

Quote from: Hoofer on June 27, 2016, 05:57:47 PM
Also makes sense, stick with the common stuff, easy to find ammo - I hear ya on the reliability part, there is nothing more useless than a magazine which will not feed consistently.   The Marlin 99A's (lever action), absolutely hate those 22 cal hyper-velocity, odd-tipped shaped bullets, had the same feeding problem with Ruger 10/22's.

Really mixed experiences with 223 ammo, the heavy stuff 69 grain takes a really rapid twist to stabilize (or it literally tumbles), and the lighter stuff 45-50 grain stuff gets less accurate (or literally blows up down range) with a fast twist.  (69 grain is/was commonly used for HP rifle competition in AR-15s).  Just occurred to me, 223 ammo is the only stuff that seemed to be so sensitive to twist rate.

Favorite knife is not made anymore, a Camillus model 893.  A rubber handled, 3 folding blades, a regular looking blade, bone saw, and gut hook type blades, all which lock in place.  Kept it sharp for deer hunting, and it made field dressing quick.  It's too short for butchering, cutting up roasts, etc., but for winter or summer, wet or dry, that square, checkered, rubber handle would "stick" in gloves or bare hands and never slip or twist in your hand - really liked that.   My knife is about 30yrs old, it's only been used for field dressing game... not too useful for much else...

How long is your fixed knife (blade inches), and is it useful for anything else, if necessary?
The hunting knife is an "old timer" around 4.5"blade. Dad gave that to me for Christmas when I turned 10, which makes that knife well old. :biggrin: Still use it every year. A couple of years later he bought me my first gun, a little single action 410 I still use around the house. The folder is a schrade, easy to sharpen keeps a edge pretty good for a folder thats used a lot.
  One of the reasons 223 seems to be sensitive to twist rate is it has several different weights from 40grains to 77 grains. As a comparison my 270 only comes in 130 and 150 grain. In 223, I have a couple of fast twist (1 in 8") which prefer 69 grain but both will also shoot Winchester white box varmint loads which are 45 grains well, a dime will cover up a 5 shot group at 100 yards. Another plus, the ammo does not weight much more than 22lr so you can carry more.

Hoofer

Quote from: jdzbrain on June 27, 2016, 09:23:44 PM
Nope.  Not weak.  A 180 grain, .358 diameter (357/38) going 1200 fps (that's from a 4" pistol) imparts a HUGE amount of energy to whatever it hits.  As a matter of fact, one of the hottest barbie doll guns (AR type black guns) going right now is the 300 blackout.  Basically a 223 brass, necked up to accept 30 caliber round so you can hunt bigger game.  If you load 357 magnums with bullets that weigh the same as the 300 blackout round, the velocities are similar and the energy will actually be higher at distance for a 357.  Of course, the blackout will be more ballistically stable at longer distances because it's a true rifle round.  That long, boat tail shape rifle rounds have.

That said, my little Rossi will cut sub 1 inch groups all day long at fifty yards with my hand loads.  So it wouldn't be any stretch to see one grouping sub 3 inch groups at a hundred yards.  That extra 10 or 12 inches of barrel length adds several hundred feet per second to the advertised velocity of any round you shoot and a lot of accuracy.  I wouldn't hesitate for a second to take deer or elk out to 100 yards with it.  And you are asking about survival rigs, not sniper rounds, which the 300 blackout ain't suited for that either.

And the same thing is true with 44 magnums or 45 long colt.  I have hand load, 300 grain 44 magnums that group 1 1/2 inches at 75 yards out of a Ruger Redhawk revolver with a scope on it.  You can imagine what those loads would do out of a rifle with another 10 or 12 inches of barrel. 

By the way, I bought Rossi because of the price, but Henry makes a good rifle too.  Just too pricey for me.  Rossi IS a little finicky until it's broken in.  That's not a problem with Henry, so if you're the kind of fella that doesn't like tinkering with guns, for a few hundred bucks more, they might be a better choice.  And Henry is side eject, so you can use regular scopes on them.  Rossi's are top eject, so you have to use long eye relief scopes on them.  But they do come pre-drilled under the rear sight to accept a scope rail.

How's that...too much information?  ;~)

Just incase ya didn't catch it, I LIKE guns.  LOL

Been shooting and hunting...literally since I was old enough to walk.  Nearly 60 years now.  Wow...I'm gettin' old!  ;~0

Oh, and on knives.  Carbon steel rust.  Just a fact, but if you buy carbon steel...make SURE that it is polished to a mirror finish.  It won't stop it from rusting if you neglect it, but it WILL slow it down.  The mirror finish doesn't give rust a place to start.  They turn black before they rust and it will polish right off with a little elbow grease and metal polish.  The sharpening part...just takes practice, but a good, properly heat treated (quenched and tempered) carbon steel knife will hold it's edge longer than stainless any day and it's a HECK of a lot easier to re-sharpen.

Why not a 12 or 20 gauge shot gun, for variety, #5 magnum shot and 1/2 - 1 oz slugs?

I'll have to look into that Blackout, but 1200fps is pretty slow for a rifle round, isn't it?
My "desired" FPS in any rifle round is 3200-3800fps... I don't know if any of those would work in a hand gun - quite a bit of slow burning powder... might look like a "flame thrower" LOL.

I started with BB guns, the Red Rider.  My brothers & I would run thru a tube of BBs in no time, plinking or feeding the barn cats.   They recognized the guns, and would trail us, waiting for a sparrow to drop.  We got useto shooting with half a dozen cats crying and rubbing up against your legs.  Pigeons were the tough ones, we'd hit em 2-3 times before they'd drop.  Since a 22 would put a hole through the haybarn, we were limited to BB guns.  Had a lot of fun with pellet guns too!  We'd shoot a dime in the grass from the porch with a HW-77 - get that thing to pop up now and then.

My first knife was a Barlow, a folder, with 2 blades - the least useful knife I ever owned, and it wouldn't hold an edge.  The few knives I made out of files were beautiful looking "toad stabbers" ... can't believe I spent DAYS at a grinder & bucket of water, getting my fingers numb from holding it & grinding by hand.
All animals are created equal; Some just take longer to cook.   Survival is keeping an eye on those around you...

Hoofer

Quote from: s3779m on June 28, 2016, 12:27:47 AM
The hunting knife is an "old timer" around 4.5"blade. Dad gave that to me for Christmas when I turned 10, which makes that knife well old. :biggrin: Still use it every year. A couple of years later he bought me my first gun, a little single action 410 I still use around the house. The folder is a schrade, easy to sharpen keeps a edge pretty good for a folder thats used a lot.
  One of the reasons 223 seems to be sensitive to twist rate is it has several different weights from 40grains to 77 grains. As a comparison my 270 only comes in 130 and 150 grain. In 223, I have a couple of fast twist (1 in 8") which prefer 69 grain but both will also shoot Winchester white box varmint loads which are 45 grains well, a dime will cover up a 5 shot group at 100 yards. Another plus, the ammo does not weight much more than 22lr so you can carry more.

Yup, you're right, the huge differences in bullet weight of a 223.  We shot a 1 in 7 twist with a moly coated, 69 grain in competition.  It was with a fast burning powder, so it really went down range fast.  When I was pulling targets, at 400yds, you would start to see bullets tumbling through the paper.  600 yards, only the fast twist guns would look respectable.   With the sun low & at your back, you could see the 223 bullets fly downrange and "drop into the paper", quite a sight! 

Over the years, I've known alot of folks with 270s for deer hunting.  With the advent of Ballistic Tip ammo, even smaller calibers are good for deer.
All animals are created equal; Some just take longer to cook.   Survival is keeping an eye on those around you...

jdzbrain

Quote from: Hoofer on June 28, 2016, 01:48:34 AM
Why not a 12 or 20 gauge shot gun, for variety, #5 magnum shot and 1/2 - 1 oz slugs?

I'll have to look into that Blackout, but 1200fps is pretty slow for a rifle round, isn't it?
My "desired" FPS in any rifle round is 3200-3800fps... I don't know if any of those would work in a hand gun - quite a bit of slow burning powder... might look like a "flame thrower" LOL.

I started with BB guns, the Red Rider.  My brothers & I would run thru a tube of BBs in no time, plinking or feeding the barn cats.   They recognized the guns, and would trail us, waiting for a sparrow to drop.  We got useto shooting with half a dozen cats crying and rubbing up against your legs.  Pigeons were the tough ones, we'd hit em 2-3 times before they'd drop.  Since a 22 would put a hole through the haybarn, we were limited to BB guns.  Had a lot of fun with pellet guns too!  We'd shoot a dime in the grass from the porch with a HW-77 - get that thing to pop up now and then.

My first knife was a Barlow, a folder, with 2 blades - the least useful knife I ever owned, and it wouldn't hold an edge.  The few knives I made out of files were beautiful looking "toad stabbers" ... can't believe I spent DAYS at a grinder & bucket of water, getting my fingers numb from holding it & grinding by hand.
Shotguns might actually be my first choice for a SINGLE survival gun.  But then you asked about 2 guns.  ;~)

As shotguns go, the new...new to me...Saiga shotguns would be a great choice. High capacity box or drum mags, any gauge from 410 to 12 and since it's basically an AK47 shotgun...it's damned dependable.  And if you got it in 410, you could actually get a Taurus Judge that's chambered in 410 as a side arm and only have to carry one caliber of ammo.  ;~0

As to the velocities of handgun ammo...that 1200 fps is about the average PUBLISHED velocity for factory 180 grain 357s fired from a 4" barrel handgun.  It's a heavy bullet for a 357 handgun.  In a lever action rifle, that velocity is closer to 1500 fps.  Most 180-200 grain 300 Blackout rounds are nearly sub sonic.  Hot 158 grain 357s are going to be closer to 2000-2200 fps out of a long barreled rifle.  That's close to what the Blackout is.  I understand the desire for faster rifle rounds if you live somewhere where you may be forced to take long shots to get game, but where I live out here in the backwoods of Kentucky, the longest shot you're ever likely to take is 75-100 yards...MAYbe.  So you're better off with a big heavy round that will punch through brush and keep going.  Small caliber, high velocity rounds just aren't as good at that.

I actually know some old boys that pour their own 200 grain lead flat nose 357 magnum bullets and have taken hogs, buffalo and even elk out to 200 yards with that round out of their Rossi and Henry rifles.  The bigger the bullet, the longer it wants to keep going straight.  Makes um very predictable.  Lighter bullets fall off quicker as the velocity falls.  So in lower velocity handgun type rounds, you're better off with heavier bullets...even if they are slower. 

Oh, and yeah.  You can get handguns...such as they are...in rifle rounds.  You can get a Thompson Contender in anything all the way up to a 45/70...IF you got the nads to squeeze the trigger.  LOL

Kills on one end, maims on the other.  But it's a heck of a handgun.  I love shooting them.  Only problem is it's single shot.  So there's that. 

And yep, got my first Daisy bb gun when I was 4.  Shot my first squirrel with a Remington, single shot 22 benched over my pop's shoulder when I was 5 and got a single shot 410 for Christmas so I could go quail huntin' with him when I was 6.  Still got both of those guns.  My wife shoots the 410 mostly now, but I still love to shoot that worn out old 22.  Feels like part of my body.  ;~) 
"I am prepared to prove at any moment that I am not the man my education has conspired to make of me"

---Fanz Kafka

Hoofer

Quote from: jdzbrain on June 28, 2016, 10:12:43 AM
Shotguns might actually be my first choice for a SINGLE survival gun.  But then you asked about 2 guns.  ;~)

As shotguns go, the new...new to me...Saiga shotguns would be a great choice. High capacity box or drum mags, any gauge from 410 to 12 and since it's basically an AK47 shotgun...it's damned dependable.  And if you got it in 410, you could actually get a Taurus Judge that's chambered in 410 as a side arm and only have to carry one caliber of ammo.  ;~0

As to the velocities of handgun ammo...that 1200 fps is about the average PUBLISHED velocity for factory 180 grain 357s fired from a 4" barrel handgun.  It's a heavy bullet for a 357 handgun.  In a lever action rifle, that velocity is closer to 1500 fps.  Most 180-200 grain 300 Blackout rounds are nearly sub sonic.  Hot 158 grain 357s are going to be closer to 2000-2200 fps out of a long barreled rifle.  That's close to what the Blackout is.  I understand the desire for faster rifle rounds if you live somewhere where you may be forced to take long shots to get game, but where I live out here in the backwoods of Kentucky, the longest shot you're ever likely to take is 75-100 yards...MAYbe.  So you're better off with a big heavy round that will punch through brush and keep going.  Small caliber, high velocity rounds just aren't as good at that.

I actually know some old boys that pour their own 200 grain lead flat nose 357 magnum bullets and have taken hogs, buffalo and even elk out to 200 yards with that round out of their Rossi and Henry rifles.  The bigger the bullet, the longer it wants to keep going straight.  Makes um very predictable.  Lighter bullets fall off quicker as the velocity falls.  So in lower velocity handgun type rounds, you're better off with heavier bullets...even if they are slower. 

Oh, and yeah.  You can get handguns...such as they are...in rifle rounds.  You can get a Thompson Contender in anything all the way up to a 45/70...IF you got the nads to squeeze the trigger.  LOL

Kills on one end, maims on the other.  But it's a heck of a handgun.  I love shooting them.  Only problem is it's single shot.  So there's that. 

And yep, got my first Daisy bb gun when I was 4.  Shot my first squirrel with a Remington, single shot 22 benched over my pop's shoulder when I was 5 and got a single shot 410 for Christmas so I could go quail huntin' with him when I was 6.  Still got both of those guns.  My wife shoots the 410 mostly now, but I still love to shoot that worn out old 22.  Feels like part of my body.  ;~)

OK, now you got a couple of us curious, a pistol/rifle round, 100% interchangeable - is there a nice jacket hollow point that would feed easily from a magazine, tube or rotary?  We (me and a guy at work) were thinking a 44 was one of them - but think that's unjacketed.
All animals are created equal; Some just take longer to cook.   Survival is keeping an eye on those around you...

Possum

Quote from: Hoofer on June 28, 2016, 02:58:48 PM
OK, now you got a couple of us curious, a pistol/rifle round, 100% interchangeable - is there a nice jacket hollow point that would feed easily from a magazine, tube or rotary?  We (me and a guy at work) were thinking a 44 was one of them - but think that's unjacketed.
Check out hornady critical defense, I know they have a 357 in jhp. Lists the velocity at 1500 for a 125 grain.  Wouldn't be too concerned about feeding, I have a old marlin lever action in 357 that has never had any problems feeding anything. Brother in law has the same in 44 mag, never a problem feeding anything either. What a hoot to shoot.

Hoofer

Never even crossed my mind as a viable, modern day option.

Rossi 44 mag
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=200&v=1gHlzb3xll0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=24OksL4FvkU

Looks like quite a combination, pistol & rifle.

Rossi 357
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HAfhOcL8QVY

This is interesting...  suppressed lever gun...?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YXc0rm6dzVs
All animals are created equal; Some just take longer to cook.   Survival is keeping an eye on those around you...

jdzbrain

Quote from: Hoofer on June 28, 2016, 02:58:48 PM
OK, now you got a couple of us curious, a pistol/rifle round, 100% interchangeable - is there a nice jacket hollow point that would feed easily from a magazine, tube or rotary?  We (me and a guy at work) were thinking a 44 was one of them - but think that's unjacketed.
Well, my Rossi has cycled everything I've run through it.   I have some hollow point, 180 grain Power Shok Federals that I bought just to try and they cycle perfectly.  I've run Remington 158 grain hollow point 357s and Federal 158 grain lead round nose 38 specials through it and it shoots perfectly.  The ONLY problem you'll run into with any ammo is some, like the Federal 180 grain Vital Shok 357 rounds are just a touch too long.  But I ground the tiniest little relief at the bottom of the loading ramp in the end of the barrel and they work fine.  Thing is, I load my own ammo, so I can pretty much set the overall length any way I want it.  I only buy off the shelf ammo when I get a new gun to give me a starting point for my loads.  But if you don't load, you can shoot almost anything and you can shoot absolutely anything with a little light gunsmithing.  There's a whole Rossi enthusiast web site with dozens of tutorials on how to do it that are easy to follow and do.

s3779m is right.  I wouldn't worry about most ammo feeding.  Some of the flat nose ammo with really straight sides likes to stick, but as long as it has tapered sides like the cast lead 44s he was shooting, even that's not a problem.

I'm glad you found those videos.  He's right about the Rossi.  It's a GREAT little gun for the money, but it IS buggy when it's new.  The FIRST thing you must do is take it completely apart and clean out the loading tube, all the receiver parts...everything and put it back together with good gun oil.  Apparently all they got is 10w-30 down in Brazil.  ;~)

The second thing is cycle the action 4 or 5 HUNDRED times until it smooths up.  And I mean literally, they don't get smooth until they've been cycled several hundred times unless you take um apart and hand smooth everything with jeweler's stones.  But that's pretty easy to do too.  And well worth the effort.  As you can see, in 44 magnum...lever guns are a BEAST!

But then, you can actually get the Rossi in 454 Casull too AND Taurus makes it in a double action revolver...if you're a gluten for punishment.  ;~)

But these two might increase your chances of survival. 
http://www.rossiusa.com/product-details.cfm?id=159
http://www.taurususa.com/product-details.cfm?id=235&category=Revolver

But then there is the problem of an uncommon ammo.  You saw how he was absolutely hammering those steel targets out at 50 and 75 yards.  I don't know if it occurred to you, but with the 44 AND 357 he was shooting different weight bullets, loaded in different kinds of bass, with different bullet profiles and using different kinds of power...heck, he was even shooting 38 specials and he was just hammering everything.  That extra barrel length makes a LOT of difference with pistol rounds.

By the way, he was right.  The Rossi 92 is a knock off of the Winchester 92.  As a matter of fact, some of the parts will actually interchange.  ;~0

I know a guy that's fitting a Rossi big loop lever like is on that little suppressed Ranch Hand to a Winchester right now. 

Oh, and I've found that anything that my 686 Smith and Wesson 357 likes, the Rossi 92 LOVES.  ;~)

I think his problem with the rounds his Smith 44 handgun liked tumbling in the Marlin 44 was related to the way Marlin bores their rifles.  He's not the first Marlin owner I've heard complain about certain rounds keyholing.  The Marlin is a GREAT rifle, but the big bores chambered for pistol rounds are sensitive to ammo.  I've heard the same thing said about Winchester too. 

Great find with the videos.  That guy actually did a review of the zombie killer a while back.  A 16 shot, double barrel pump 12 gauge shot gun.  MAN that thing is cool!

If you look through his channel, you'll probably find it.
"I am prepared to prove at any moment that I am not the man my education has conspired to make of me"

---Fanz Kafka