Quote from: JTA on May 20, 2013, 02:14:56 PM
If you found yourself in a situation where you needed to hunt game in the wild to survive, what type of gun would be best to have? A shotgun, a .22 rifle, something else?

.22 rifle, hands down. God never invented a better tool for collecting a mess to eat.

Excepting flying game -- ducks, geese, grouse, pheasants, etc. -- every reasonably edible animal that walks the continent can be taken with a .22, with the possible exception of buffalo. That classification most definitely includes whitetail deer, if taken carefully. (I can drop a whitetail with a single .22 slug, and have done so a number of times.)

Back when Dad was raising beef cattle, killing one was a big deal for him. He called his buddy, "Hack" Blackburn, a small man skilled in the arts of meatcutting. Hack also had this weird little rifle, a .22 break-open with a barrel maybe 15" long and a stock that was just barely there. The front sight was gone, and a small sheet-metal screw had taken its place. Our barn had a large central bay, with hay mows on both sides, and Dad would shoo the victim into the big bay, where Hack waited with his sawed-off wonder. Quick as a wink, Hack would raise his runt rifle and SNAP! That cow's legs would collapse instantly, and its belly would hit the ground within a second. No twitch, no fuss, no muss. Hack's skinning knife came out, the jugular was cut, and five minutes later we were seriously skinning a beef.

The secret is not carrying the biggest gun. The secret is knowing EXACTLY where to put the bullet. With Hereford cattle, there is a space above and between the eyes, about the size of a half-dollar, that is the right place. When Dad ran a victim into the middle of the barn, Hack was waiting. He moved just a little, and the cow stopped, front feet sliding across the ground. The instant the cow stopped, Hack popped it in that little circle -- with a little ol' .22.

Looking back over what I just wrote, I feel right about adding this:

I DO NOT recommend that ANYONE hunt or take large game with a .22 rifle.

I DO NOT recommend that ANYONE kill a beef with a .22 rifle. (I remember the one time Hack missed. He climbed a stack of fertilizer sacks faster than I thought a human being could move -- that heifer was PISSED.)

I DO NOT recommend that ANYONE modify any rifle or other firearm in a way that would place it or the owner in violation of existing federal, state or local laws.

Still, the secret is not in the gun. It's in the knowing how to use the gun.

Quote from: TboneAgain on May 21, 2013, 08:09:53 PM
Looking back over what I just wrote, I feel right about adding this:

I DO NOT recommend that ANYONE hunt or take large game with a .22 rifle.

I DO NOT recommend that ANYONE kill a beef with a .22 rifle. (I remember the one time Hack missed. He climbed a stack of fertilizer sacks faster than I thought a human being could move -- that heifer was PISSED.)

I DO NOT recommend that ANYONE modify any rifle or other firearm in a way that would place it or the owner in violation of existing federal, state or local laws.

Still, the secret is not in the gun. It's in the knowing how to use the gun.

In a survival situation, I agree absolutely!
But if you're not starving, use a round that stops the heart instantly, once the animal knows it's life is about to be snuffed out, panic sets in and adrenaline taints every part of the body.
And that what a small caliber round does, it kills too slowly and the animal usually bleeds out.

Quote from: Solar on May 22, 2013, 06:42:28 AM
In a survival situation, I agree absolutely!
But if you're not starving, use a round that stops the heart instantly, once the animal knows it's life is about to be snuffed out, panic sets in and adrenaline taints every part of the body.
And that what a small caliber round does, it kills too slowly and the animal usually bleeds out.

I made my point poorly, it is clear.

When I talked about the target being a spot about the size of a half dollar above and between the eyes, I was trying to say that that is a soft spot in a cow's skull. During the misadventure I described, the heifer flinched at the moment Hack shot, and Hack missed that spot. That little slug bouncing off its otherwise thick skull appeared to aggravate that heifer somewhat, and the resultant aggressive behavior is what encouraged Hack to appear at the top of a six-foot stack of bagged fertilizer.

In other words, it was NOT a failure of the .22 bullet, but a failure of that bullet to reach its destination.

Around the same time as this incident, a neighbor's Charolais bull had taken to busting through five-strand barbed-wire fences to go mano y mano with my dad's Hereford bull, Jess. The neighbors bull dressed out (much later) at around 1,800 lb. Dad's Jess went at 1,200. Fair fight, yes?

I did not witness this, but was told it by reliable witnesses, including my dad....

An attempt was made to pen that bull up in a barn, which resulted mainly in large holes in the barn. Attempts were made to fence him in, which generally resulted in lots of broken barbed wire and fenceposts. Finally, an attempt was made to put him down by a marksman with a .22 Hornet rifle. The bullet bounced off his head and he blinked. (This is what I was told.)

That bull's final episode was when he was caught standing in the open and another marksman was able to place a .30-06 slug through his left ear. I'm told his knees buckled instantly and his belly hit the ground exactly the way I described the demise of Hack's victims earlier.

In a way, it's a matter of scale. I read an article once that claimed, for example, that shooting a squirrel or a rabbit with a .22 is the equivalent of shooting a whitetail deer with a 20mm cannon. Zowie!

But what I was talking about originally was close-range execution by gunshot between the eyes, and that does not require -- and indeed should not involve -- a large-caliber weapon. I read somewhere once that laborers in Chicago slaughterhouses accomplished the exact same results with spiked hammers. As the pigs or whatever were run through chutes below them, workers would swing spiked hammers and strike them between the eyes, and the critters would drop in their tracks.

But I would not care to be the guy who gets to chase that one-ton Charolais bull around the barnyard with a hammer.

Quote from: TboneAgain on May 26, 2013, 11:09:44 PM
I made my point poorly, it is clear.

When I talked about the target being a spot about the size of a half dollar above and between the eyes, I was trying to say that that is a soft spot in a cow's skull. During the misadventure I described, the heifer flinched at the moment Hack shot, and Hack missed that spot. That little slug bouncing off its otherwise thick skull appeared to aggravate that heifer somewhat, and the resultant aggressive behavior is what encouraged Hack to appear at the top of a six-foot stack of bagged fertilizer.

In other words, it was NOT a failure of the .22 bullet, but a failure of that bullet to reach its destination.

Around the same time as this incident, a neighbor's Charolais bull had taken to busting through five-strand barbed-wire fences to go mano y mano with my dad's Hereford bull, Jess. The neighbors bull dressed out (much later) at around 1,800 lb. Dad's Jess went at 1,200. Fair fight, yes?

I did not witness this, but was told it by reliable witnesses, including my dad....

An attempt was made to pen that bull up in a barn, which resulted mainly in large holes in the barn. Attempts were made to fence him in, which generally resulted in lots of broken barbed wire and fenceposts. Finally, an attempt was made to put him down by a marksman with a .22 Hornet rifle. The bullet bounced off his head and he blinked. (This is what I was told.)

That bull's final episode was when he was caught standing in the open and another marksman was able to place a .30-06 slug through his left ear. I'm told his knees buckled instantly and his belly hit the ground exactly the way I described the demise of Hack's victims earlier.

In a way, it's a matter of scale. I read an article once that claimed, for example, that shooting a squirrel or a rabbit with a .22 is the equivalent of shooting a whitetail deer with a 20mm cannon. Zowie!

But what I was talking about originally was close-range execution by gunshot between the eyes, and that does not require -- and indeed should not involve -- a large-caliber weapon. I read somewhere once that laborers in Chicago slaughterhouses accomplished the exact same results with spiked hammers. As the pigs or whatever were run through chutes below them, workers would swing spiked hammers and strike them between the eyes, and the critters would drop in their tracks.

But I would not care to be the guy who gets to chase that one-ton Charolais bull around the barnyard with a hammer.

LOL!!! That's funny, even been there, done that in a sense.
I was caught in a fees lot working our herd ready for sale, but these were cattle not for slaughter, but breeding, all around $30 K per head.

When some morons from a neighboring ranch brought out a Brahma bull, one that easily blew through 2" piped gates and right in my alley.
Feed lots are generally like giant pies sliced into 20 sections, arena sort in the centered accessing all the slices from a center.
This bull found the only exit a 1/4 mile away from my location, where I was on the outer perimeter which is also a gated barrier surrounding the entire pie.

Well the bottom of the pie, which is located on a slope had one gate still open, about 200' from my local, and the only reason it was open was all the manure, wet at that, had run to the bottom of of the hill, so deep that the gate was a permanent fixture stuck open.

Well I heard all this yelling and screaming from the wannabe cowboys, they were in a panic, the bull was tossing ass and boots all over the lot, when one thinking cowboy took it upon himself to warn us.
I looked up the isle, and there it was, a one ton black mass pissed at all of humanity, and he was headed right for me.
I took of running faster than I can remember, and headed for the open gate, of course I knew of the manure, but I had no idea it was wet, being mid summer.
I got about 20' and sunk, thinking I was doomed, I looked back expecting to see my impending demise, only to be hit bay a wall of shit, the bull only made it 15' where he had cut a path towards me.
At this point relief had passed over me, though the question of how long would I have to stand neck deep in shit was crossing my mind now.

With the help of several lassos and a winch on a truck, they drug the bull out, and a rope to me allowed me to be drug on my belly for another 100'+ to my freedom.

One thing I learned about this brand of cowboy, was they do half the work to create twice the trouble for themselves and those around them.

But back to your point, correct, if you can surprise the animal, the meat will be adrenaline free, which is why they use this method today in meat packing plants.
The animals are lead down a narrow path single file, where the animals enter one by one, a chute that allows only their head to peer out, the animal is gently squeezed and a blade separates the head from the body quickly and instantly, not allowing the brain to trigger the adrenal gland.

lol, this is what they always say about shooting to kill for hunting - eyes & ears.  A .22 can do that on just about any animal with a good enough shot.

Though I'd strongly recommend against trying your skills against things like bulls, rinos, bears, etc.

I forget what movie, but I remember one where there was an old Indian who borrowed a guy's rifle once a year, with one .22 round, and brought back a huge deer for meat for the year.

Today's good news is the local Walmart is nicely stocked with very good weapons, which haven't all disappeared within days of showing up. 

Several 5.56 and even a really nice 7.62 with a big box magazine.  Somewhat unfortunately, priced right on 2K $.  But....all the bells & whistles: really neat folding stock, great sights, tri-rail fore end, etc.
Uses both 7.62 and .308, very nifty.

I like the idea of something similar to an AR-15 with that much more punch to it.

Quote from: Shooterman on March 18, 2013, 05:29:58 PM
Buy an SKS. Shoots 7.62X39. Russian and other foreign crap is still relatively cheap. Most everything else has gone out of sight if you can find it.

Shooterman:

The SKS carbine is an inexpensive yet accurate weapon that many people here in northwest Arkansas use for hunting deer.  Even without a scope, the hard sites are reasonably accurate out to around one hundred yards.  With a scope, hitting a target the size of a No. 10 coffree-can lid at one-hundred-fifty yards is not out of the question.  The ammo is cheap if purchesed from mail order ammo suppliers.  My two sons and I have used the 7.62X39 Remington 125 GR. R762391 rifle bullets with good success for the last several deer-hunting seasons.  These carbines are a little on the heavy side, but not unreasonably so.  Coupled to a folding stock, the SKS is also good as a home defense weapon, assuming that you do not live in an apartment complex. 

RO               

Quote from: AndyJackson on June 20, 2013, 08:07:49 AM
lol, this is what they always say about shooting to kill for hunting - eyes & ears.  A .22 can do that on just about any animal with a good enough shot.

Though I'd strongly recommend against trying your skills against things like bulls, rinos, bears, etc.

I forget what movie, but I remember one where there was an old Indian who borrowed a guy's rifle once a year, with one .22 round, and brought back a huge deer for meat for the year.

Shoot, I remember watching Fred Bear shooting grizzlies with a bow. I ain't got that kind of cajones!

Walmart's stocked back up nicely with  .223's.   Even one for a paltry $ 600.00;   hard to beat that  !

Of course .223 ammo is not very plentiful, but you can get it in dribs & drabs.

Quote from: AndyJackson on August 26, 2013, 02:00:17 PM
Walmart's stocked back up nicely with  .223's.   Even one for a paltry $ 600.00;   hard to beat that  !

Of course .223 ammo is not very plentiful, but you can get it in dribs & drabs.

I picked up a bunch of 7.62x39 ammo a few week ago at Wal-mart. They didn't have any pistol ammo, but seems like our local sporting goods stores or more or less well stocked now.

I gained some newfound respect for 7.62 / .308 recently, shooting some 30-06.  I hadn't ever shot any of them. Boy, what a round the 30-06 is.  They had some plate steel targets in the shape of animals, 1/4" I think, that had been just about cut in half over time.

It has some real pop to it.

Makes me want get a Mosin-Nagant.  That's a car or bear stopper right there.

I love the .223's, but the 7.62 brings a lot more firepower.   .223 may still be better for self defense though, with so many more rounds and pin-point accuracy for the amateur.

Beautiful day shooting some rifles!



Also had the opportunity to shoot some .40 S&W pistol rounds I reloaded. I still have all my digits so I consider that as a definite success.

Yep, the M91/30, M39, and M44s can be good durable rifles if you look them over carefully before you buy. Just beware of "counter bored" barrel muzzles as this was often done to correct damage from over-zealous bore cleaning with steel cleaning rods (these rifles can still shoot well though).

I, like Solar, bought a couple of these Russian surplus rifles from Big 5 back in the mid/late '90s for about $70 each. One is a WWII era M91/30 that has seen more than it's share of use and abuse (the bore is dull from corrosive ammo, but the rifling is still sharp and deep enough to make it pretty accurate for a well-worn service rifle.

The other is a near mint all (but the stock) matching numbers M44 that truly looks to be unfired. The stock had been changed out at some time with a somewhat unfinished replacement (I sanded it down just a bit and went over it 3-4 times with shellac of a suitable tint).

Anyway, my first look at this series of rifles was back in the early '90s when you could by them at gun shows in lots of 10 for 100 bucks or so. A buddy and I were looking at these a bit side-ways and some old veteran type of guy said "them Mosins are shooters! We both kinda laughed and walked away (we kicked ourselves over this not too many years later).

Btw, I've had good luck with Winchester   MC54RSP 180 grain SP ammo. Haven't tried any of the current European stuff yet (i.e. Wolf, B&S, etc). The mil-surplus ammo can be pretty bad when it comes to accuracy and corrosion (but hey, it's surplus right?).

I had to laugh at the Walmart fliers in last Sunday's paper.  A mere 6-8 months removed from being basically anti-gun after Newtown, they are now "apocalypse / survival / armory central".

All kinds of weapons (with sexy portraits lol), AR-15 customizing kits and components (with groovy gray silhouette of the weapon and little black outlines of all the cool gadgets and gizmos where they go), "tactical" clothing such as underarmor type shirts with built-in concealed-carry pockets, utility pants, and combat boots.  Tactical knives and batons.

They even had a separate flier for all this, apart from their regular one.

Hilarious, the ever-shifting politics of the guns and the profit motive.