Quote from: walkstall on March 18, 2013, 07:38:08 PM
My all around play around target practice rifle is a 2 22.   But I like the looks of that 223. 

The best varmint rifle -- and by far the most accurate rifle of any description -- I ever owned was a beat-up Remington 788 in .222 caliber. I bought it from an elderly gentleman who told me it was "too much gun" for him, meaning too loud, too much kick, etc. (His favored caliber was the 5mm Remington, and he asked me to be "on the scout" for shells for his gun. Yeah, right. Thirty years ago, 5mm shells were selling at gun shows for about $35 for a box of twenty.)

The 788 was Remington's "poor man's bolt action rifle," not even a cousin to the high-dollar 700/721/722 series of wallhangers. It had a cheap straight birch stock, a simple plastic butt cap, the minimal bluing and metal finishing, and a bolt that rattled around in the receiver like a rock in a tin can. It was offered in the usual calibers, plus some you might not expect in such a cheapie: .243 Winchester, 30-30, and the aging .222 Remington, my caliber.

I handloaded my own ammunition back in those days, and I experimented with every powder/bullet/primer/casing combo I could think of. Sundays were shooting days out at the old AEP strip mine pits. My best shooting buddy, my preacher, and I would show up out at the pits, and NOBODY dared to make an appearance with less than 500 rounds ready to burn. We burned a lot of powder, and I learned a lot about handloading.

Every rifle is unique, and each rifle shoots different loads differently. Factory loads from Remington, Winchester, Federal, Norma, etc. game me 100-yd. groups in the range of 1-1/4" to 1-1/2" at 100 yds., nothing close to what I wanted, which was sure kills on groundhog-sized targets at 250 yds.

After months of experimentation, and thousands of rounds shot (and a LOT of fun times!), I settled on this for that old Remington:

• Once-fired .223 military brass (donated, but more accurate and durable than any of the commercial stuff) sized and trimmed to .222
• CCI small rifle primer
• 39.5 grains of IMR (DuPont) 4198 stick smokeless powder (weighed by hand on a scale, not from a drop)
• Hornady 52-grain BTHP Match bullet

Using that combination of components, shooting from a sandbag rest, at 100 yards, I could put five shots in one ragged hole, which I could cover with the tip of my index finger. At 300 yds., I could shoot inside a 3" circle. Twice I dropped groundhogs at roughly 330 yards with that rifle, and many, many more 'hogs at shorter ranges.

I guess my point is that any gun can do what you want if you treat it right, and do the things necessary to make it happen. Some of my shooting buddies laughed at me when I bought that 788 from that old man. But nobody laughed when they saw the 'hogs die at 250 yards.

I was a young pup when I bought both those rifles, and I fell for that "Uh, my bore light batteries are dead" line at the local gun show/swap meet. (And of course I didn't have my own bore light.) I didn't actually see any bore deterioration in either the Lee-Enfield or the Mauser -- because once I shot a decent bore light down those barrels THERE WAS NOTHING TO SEE. No shine, no grooves, no lands, just darkness with a round bright spot at the end. They were both wall-hangers, but pretty to look at, you bet! I should've reamed the chambers in both guns and used them as .410 shotguns.

I agree that the sort of damage that can affect accuracy begins before it's visible to the naked eye. But I also was not exaggerating about how badly my gun show "bargains" performed on the target range. The L-E was at least predictable. It would put the first shot on target and walk subsequent slugs up and to the right, faster with each firing. (The way the rifle was set up, it was natural for me to lay the fingers of my left hand across the top of the barrel ahead of the breach; I could actually feel the barrel heat up as each shot was fired.) But that Mauser... when I was working with that thing, I wouldn't let anyone stand even an inch beyond the plane of the firing line. That thing flung bullets all over the place!

My point: They may be pretty, and the seller may talk a good game, but caveat emptor!!!

I like the large scoped 25-06. It's a tack driver at a 100 or 200 yards. Flat Flat trajectory.  For survival though it is best to stay with a cheap - popular cartridge.

Although at the moment you have to wonder when the supply will open up again.


Below is a free PDF download with a complete Ballistics Chart.
Below that is a Wikipedia's nice picture of 17 different Rifle Cartridges that allows a excellent comparison.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.25-06_Remington

http://www.hornady.com/assets/files/ballistics/2013-Standard-Ballistics.pdf

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_rifle_cartridges

Thanks for the info everyone. I think I'm going to hold off getting a rifle for a little while. The range nearby my house doesn't allow rifles larger than a 22.

Let me ask you all another question, which do you think is a better buy - a Ruger LC9 or a Taurus PT709?

JTA

I think some considerations in buying a firearm are -
Do you have a family? Children?
IF you have children you need to take extra precautions to secure your firearm, not only from them but their friends.

A word about children and guns.
I have four children.
I took them to the Gun Range when they turned seven onward.
They learned to shoot a .22 and a 9mm Pistol.
When they were older they all shot larger calibers including my .44 Mag S&W
I took them to the shooting range every 3 -6 months or if they asked to go.
Mostly they shot .22 rifles for fun

At home I told them Anytime they want to look at my guns or hold one in their hands tell me and I will get the gun or guns out.
As a result they learned to shoot well, know Gun Safety well, respect guns and are Pro Gun.
I never had to worry about them and my guns. (Yes I monitored their activity for safety )
If they wanted to go shooting - they asked and I arranged it.

My 33 year old RN daughter just bought a 9mm Pistol. She already had a .22 Pistol.  She takes her 13 year old daughter to the range occasionally.

_________________________________________________
How familiar with guns are you?
How often have you shot a pistol?
Do you intend to shoot regularly in the future?
Invest in a Gun Safety and Shooting course at your local Gun Range - $100 - $150.
If you own a firearm the most important things are:

Gun Safety
The ability to shoot accurately - very accurately if possible.
That learning should be done with a small caliber - like a .22
Small Caliber is Cheap to shoot.

The reason to learn with a small caliber is so you do not acquire bad habits.
I have seen people shoot and learn on large caliber guns develop terrible habits that can be difficult to near impossible to correct.

Quote
The worst is the INVOLUNTARY FLINCH


What is an Involuntary Flinch?

That's when in anticipation of the gun firings the person flinches and the gun jerks (usually) down.

The Best Way to Tell How Much of a Flinch a person has is with a REVOLVER.

You load 3 rounds in the cylinder and skip a one cylinder or two. Don't let the shooter see how you loaded it.  Then the shooter takes the firearm and shoots one shot at a time with at least 4-5 seconds separating the shots. If they have any flinch it will be obvious when there is "NO" round in the chamber. The shooter will also become aware of how much flinch they have.

What to buy?
It depends on what your primary purpose in buying is?
Defense - rarely used OR concealed Carry - daily use.

Out of curiosity I took a look and found these. >

Ruger is a very well respected long history / pedigree American firearm
http://www.guns.com/reviews/ruger-lc9/

The Taurus is manufactured by Brazil. The Review below is not favorable about the Trigger.
http://hunting.about.com/od/guns/ss/taurus-pt709-slim-9mm-compact-pocket-pistol-review_2.htm

Quote from: JTA on April 03, 2013, 03:06:29 PM
Thanks for the info everyone. I think I'm going to hold off getting a rifle for a little while. The range nearby my house doesn't allow rifles larger than a 22.

Let me ask you all another question, which do you think is a better buy - a Ruger LC9 or a Taurus PT709?

Ruger.....PERIOD!

Quote from: Bowhntr on April 05, 2013, 07:46:44 AM
Ruger.....PERIOD!

I tend to agree, Ruger has never failed me, and I've owned three, 41 mag burned in a fire, my 357 stolen and the last is a semiauto, and not once did one of these fail to perform, even when dirty and full of sand and mud.
Dipped 357 and the 22 both in a creek and worked them under water and neither had an issue.

Did I mention I'm hard on guns? I can care less what a piece looks like, I didn't buy them for show, just like any tool, if a garage is full of brand new tools that never get used and abused, then I can show you a man that doesn't know how to use tools and maintain them, not to mention, probably can't use them to their full potential.

Quote from: TboneAgain on March 19, 2013, 05:20:13 PM
Keep in mind that ammo for your Mosin-Nagant ain't on Walmart's shelf, and probably never will be. The correct ammo is 7.62x54mmR -- the "R" means rimmed. This is NOT the same fodder that goes through an AK or an SKS -- that's 7.62x39mm, which is available all over the place, but is a completely different and incompatible cartridge.

I agree with Solar, the caliber is a good one, and the old M-N rifles were well made. But they're mostly a hundred years old, some older, and they're all bolt-action. If that's what you want, fine, just so you know what you're getting. Yes, if you can find a way to fit a scope to one, you're good to go for hunting. But the Mosin-Nagant is not much of a self-defense piece, unless it's all you have. (Hell, a butter knife is good for defense if it's all you have...)

Before you plunk down the cash, look carefully down the bore. If it's really dark in there, pass it by. In my experience, the vast majority of such battle rifles have bores so badly shot out that you can't hit my house from here -- a distance of about 100 feet. I once bought an old Lee-Enfield No. 1, Mk 3 that was a fine-looking piece, but couldn't pierce a target more than three times before its rotted barrel heated and warped and walked the holes right off the paper. An even prettier Mauser 98 in 7mm cal. was even worse. It had been "tricked up" every way there was -- turned down bolt handle, target sights, walnut Monte Carlo stock, scope mounts, M70-style safety, hot-bluing -- you name it. It was one of the sexiest damn rifles I've ever seen, and that's why I bought it -- for $140. Holy cow. At 25 yards, the long, sexy 7mm bullets that thing shot made holes in the paper target -- occasionally -- that looked like an old-fashioned pop bottle, kinda oblong. At 100 yds. that rifle made holes in the target NEVER, EVER ONCE.

Re-barrel the buggers, Tee. I was shooting Bolt Action Service Rifle competition and needed a good bolt action. By then the 03-A3s were already getting scarcer than hen's teeth and expensive, so I found a '17 Enfield. The bore was dark, but I figured a good cleaning would take care of that. Turns out after about two or three matches, it wasn't cleaning up, so I had it re-barreled. Have a brand new barrel, looks slicker than Marilyn Monrow's calender. Was shooting great. Now am having bolt problems, but the bore is bright and shiny.

Have a Chinese SKS I am thinking of updating into a SHTF rifle. New sights, and a poly stock with hand grips, plus converting to mags rather than the stripper clips. Paid a hundred for the thing about 12-14 years ago, can upgrade for less than 300. May buy a spare bolt to have in case, as well.

Waited way to long to even attempt to buy an AK, and the Bushy is a match grade and way too damned heavy to lug around, though I did buy 3 thirty round mags for it. ( for trading, if nothing else )

Quote from: Shooterman on April 05, 2013, 08:51:34 AM
Re-barrel the buggers, Tee. I was shooting Bolt Action Service Rifle competition and needed a good bolt action. By then the 03-A3s were already getting scarcer than hen's teeth and expensive, so I found a '17 Enfield. The bore was dark, but I figured a good cleaning would take care of that. Turns out after about two or three matches, it wasn't cleaning up, so I had it re-barreled. Have a brand new barrel, looks slicker than Marilyn Monrow's calender. Was shooting great. Now am having bolt problems, but the bore is bright and shiny.

Have a Chinese SKS I am thinking of updating into a SHTF rifle. New sights, and a poly stock with hand grips, plus converting to mags rather than the stripper clips. Paid a hundred for the thing about 12-14 years ago, can upgrade for less than 300. May buy a spare bolt to have in case, as well.

Waited way to long to even attempt to buy an AK, and the Bushy is a match grade and way too damned heavy to lug around, though I did buy 3 thirty round mags for it. ( for trading, if nothing else )

Rebarreling is always an option... but the cost is rather high. Paying a competent gunsmith to rebarrel a rifle often exceeds the cost of a new rifle. If I were looking to convert an SKS to a SHTF gun, the only thing I'd do is convert it to magazine feed. Maybe saw a few inches off the stock and/or the barrel.

The way things are going, your 30-rounders were a good investment. Maybe you can find some SKS ammo to trade for? 

Quote from: TboneAgain on April 05, 2013, 06:15:12 PM
Rebarreling is always an option... but the cost is rather high. Paying a competent gunsmith to rebarrel a rifle often exceeds the cost of a new rifle. If I were looking to convert an SKS to a SHTF gun, the only thing I'd do is convert it to magazine feed. Maybe saw a few inches off the stock and/or the barrel.

The way things are going, your 30-rounders were a good investment. Maybe you can find some SKS ammo to trade for? 

Yeah, to re-barrel can be a little expensive. I think back then I paid a hundred for the barrel and about a 100 for the gunsmith. So, I have about 325-350 in the '17.

If I do the SKS, the problem is the sights suck. They are in front of the bolt opening. New sights will now give the sight picture as that of an M-1 or an M1 Carbine. Plus the other will be for cosmetic purposed other than the mag conversion. Sights and the mag conversion will be for sure.

Russian 7.62 X 39 is still relatively cheap. I have some, and have dies and brass to reload.

Quote from: Cyborg on April 03, 2013, 05:19:10 PM
JTA

I think some considerations in buying a firearm are -
Do you have a family? Children?
IF you have children you need to take extra precautions to secure your firearm, not only from them but their friends.

A word about children and guns.
I have four children.
I took them to the Gun Range when they turned seven onward.
They learned to shoot a .22 and a 9mm Pistol.
When they were older they all shot larger calibers including my .44 Mag S&W
I took them to the shooting range every 3 -6 months or if they asked to go.
Mostly they shot .22 rifles for fun

At home I told them Anytime they want to look at my guns or hold one in their hands tell me and I will get the gun or guns out.
As a result they learned to shoot well, know Gun Safety well, respect guns and are Pro Gun.
I never had to worry about them and my guns. (Yes I monitored their activity for safety )
If they wanted to go shooting - they asked and I arranged it.

My 33 year old RN daughter just bought a 9mm Pistol. She already had a .22 Pistol.  She takes her 13 year old daughter to the range occasionally.

_________________________________________________
How familiar with guns are you?
How often have you shot a pistol?
Do you intend to shoot regularly in the future?
Invest in a Gun Safety and Shooting course at your local Gun Range - $100 - $150.
If you own a firearm the most important things are:

Gun Safety
The ability to shoot accurately - very accurately if possible.
That learning should be done with a small caliber - like a .22
Small Caliber is Cheap to shoot.

The reason to learn with a small caliber is so you do not acquire bad habits.
I have seen people shoot and learn on large caliber guns develop terrible habits that can be difficult to near impossible to correct.


What to buy?
It depends on what your primary purpose in buying is?
Defense - rarely used OR concealed Carry - daily use.

Out of curiosity I took a look and found these. >

Ruger is a very well respected long history / pedigree American firearm
http://www.guns.com/reviews/ruger-lc9/

The Taurus is manufactured by Brazil. The Review below is not favorable about the Trigger.
http://hunting.about.com/od/guns/ss/taurus-pt709-slim-9mm-compact-pocket-pistol-review_2.htm

Home and personal defense. I don't have any children.

I'm fairly familiar with shooting and gun safety. I used to go hunting as a kid and recently purchased my first firearm a few months ago (Beretta 96). I've shot about 400-500 rounds with it thus far (bought it from a friend who used to let me shoot it a lot), and I do intend to shoot regularly, provided I can actually find some more ammo.

No particular reason I want to get another pistol, I just really enjoy hitting the range. Well I take that back, I am planning on getting a CWP, the Beretta is a little large to carry should I even decide to do so.

Also, I'd like my fiancee to get her CWP too, so a smaller pistol would be ideal for her to be able to throw in her purse. She's had several run-ins with some shady people in the past. Then again, I don't know if she would be better off with a taser or some pepper spray. She's fairly intimidated by guns and has yet to shoot one. Once ammo becomes easier to buy I plan on teaching her how to operate a gun. I want to start her off with something small like a .22 though.

I think the Ruger is the way to go, unless you guys have any other suggestions for a good carry gun?

Quote from: JTA on April 06, 2013, 07:53:17 AM
Home and personal defense. I don't have any children.

I'm fairly familiar with shooting and gun safety. I used to go hunting as a kid and recently purchased my first firearm a few months ago (Beretta 96). I've shot about 400-500 rounds with it thus far (bought it from a friend who used to let me shoot it a lot), and I do intend to shoot regularly, provided I can actually find some more ammo.

No particular reason I want to get another pistol, I just really enjoy hitting the range. Well I take that back, I am planning on getting a CWP, the Beretta is a little large to carry should I even decide to do so.

Also, I'd like my fiancee to get her CWP too, so a smaller pistol would be ideal for her to be able to throw in her purse. She's had several run-ins with some shady people in the past. Then again, I don't know if she would be better off with a taser or some pepper spray. She's fairly intimidated by guns and has yet to shoot one. Once ammo becomes easier to buy I plan on teaching her how to operate a gun. I want to start her off with something small like a .22 though.

I think the Ruger is the way to go, unless you guys have any other suggestions for a good carry gun?

You might like to look at a Bersa .380. A number of years ago, I had bought my wife and two daughters all Taurus 85CHs, one in stainless and two that were blued. Eventually after a trigger job on the S/S that was my wife's. it was made even worse, so I bought her an Ultra Star in 40 S&W. ( Star is no longer in the business ) 3 or 4 years ago, one of my daughters wanted an auto, so I bought her that Bersa .380, and got her Taurus back. That Bersa cost about 200 as I recall, but that was a few years ago. Great little pistol for the money, DA, has a decocker as I recall. I had shot one that belonged to a friend, and for carry, especially by a lady, it would be perfect. It goes boom and makes a bigger hole than a 22 and with a good frangible round, it should do the trick.

Shop the pawn shops and a 223 is a great caliber but so is the 7.62, it has been around a long time and there are lots of them available.

I've heard that a lot of M-N have not been used, or barely used. Supposedly the Russians pumped out so many of them over 50 years that many just never saw action.

And they can find their way to you packed really well in cosmolene and containers.

I'm sure it's not a given, and probably dependent on the quality of the dealers and their suppliers.  I've read nothing but glowing reviews for the ones that Bud's sells.

I love that Big 5 story.  Rifle and 1000 rounds for under 200 dollars  ?  That's just crazy.

If you found yourself in a situation where you needed to hunt game in the wild to survive, what type of gun would be best to have? A shotgun, a .22 rifle, something else?