Quote from: cubedemon on July 01, 2015, 08:52:15 AMThis is the problem with the belief system of personal responsibility advocates.

I think your hung up on that phrase.  Yes life is what you make it, within the restraints your condition has placed on you.  Not every one can be independent and they need help maneuvering in this life.  In that sense, it's true that life isn't fair, and there are no guarantees in the outcome.  All you can do is the best that you can with the tools that you were given. 

Personal responsibility advocates are talking about people who are physically and mentally capable of taking care of themselves without government handouts.  We have a social system to help people in need, and unfortunately, there are too many who are in the system who shouldn't be. 

Quote from: Dori on July 01, 2015, 10:36:25 AM
I think your hung up on that phrase.  Yes life is what you make it, within the restraints your condition has placed on you.  Not every one can be independent and they need help maneuvering in this life.  In that sense, it's true that life isn't fair, and there are no guarantees in the outcome.  All you can do is the best that you can with the tools that you were given. 

Personal responsibility advocates are talking about people who are physically and mentally capable of taking care of themselves without government handouts.  We have a social system to help people in need, and unfortunately, there are too many who are in the system who shouldn't be.

You're right, all I can do is the best I can.  I have put together an application for a part time desktop support specialist position for my county government.   I looked at the qualifications and salaries for the different positions for the IT jobs for my county's government.   

I think have a hypothesis about what the bottom means.   First, the bottom is different for different people.  It depends upon what they're qualified for and the less they're qualified for the lower the salary.   I have to look at the qualifications and see what they require.   If I'm not qualified I have to look for one with less qualifications which means a lower salary.

Where I'm qualified is my bottom.   What I'm supposed to do is when I get in I do an excellent job for them and then later ask for a full time position.   Keep an eye out for other positions in the county government workplace and if needed obtain more skills.   

Am I at least on the right track as to how things actually work?   

Yeah, you're right I am getting hung up on the phrase.   That is an Autistic trait I'm trying to work on which is difficult.  I tend to perseverate on things.  It's difficult for me to let things go and I can obsess on things especially things that don't make sense to me.   

Thing is, I don't want just a handout or welfare.   What I want is to be shown the way to go.  That's the main problem with welfare and disability.  One is made dependent on an external entity especially when it is not needed in some cases.   What people need is to be shown the actual path and shown what they need to actually do so they can do it. 

I believe I can function in society and I have come a long way since my childhood but the problem I'm experiencing in my real life is I have reached a plateau in which I'm functional enough in which others don't think I need further assistance yet I need a bit more assistance to being fully functional. 

The idea has similarities to the concept of what is called The Uncanny Valley.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncanny_valley

I am almost functional but not quite there as demonstrated by the user who goes by the name Taxed.  He believes I don't  have Autism at all and examining things from his point of view and attempting to take his perspective (which is very difficult for me) I can understand. 

a.  I have a college degree
b.  I use complete sentences with pedantic type language
c.   Even solar has admitted that I do come across as intelligent but with a lack of "common sense"  I'm just paraphrasing

d.   I've admitted to having some jobs in the past.

It can come across as though I don't need assistance and I'm possibly malingering meaning faking based upon past evidence and what I say and how I say it.  Therein lies the problem and even voc rehab could not understand at first how I needed assistance until they really got to know me.   

Quote from: quiller on June 27, 2015, 07:33:36 AM
I don't know about acid trips, but I actually am Q and it ain't your call to give it to nobody else, see? (*puts up widdle boxing gloves, bravely braces for the suckerpunch*)

That part about being bound only by an imagination unconstrained by social norms, or my imagination my only limit? Sure. I'm down with that. And that positivity stuff, too. You betcha. Under Obama I'm as positive as positive can get. 

Do you not remember the character "Q" from the 2nd Generation Star Trek?
The best character to ever come out of the series, the omnipotent Q, a spoiled, bored brat of what is the equivalent of a God.

Quote from: cubedemon on June 27, 2015, 08:16:45 PM
Solar, no intention of being rude but you're using a form of reductionism meaning oversimplification of the problem. 

Of course i's over simplified, but it's up to you to understand simplicity, not a failure on my part.

QuoteLet's say an employer asks "Why do you want to work here?"  Let's say a person doesn't want to work at all but wants to play video games all day.  He knows this is not feasible and has to work.  If he answers truthfully that he doesn't but knows he has to, to support himself will he become employed?  No, employers don't want this answer. This means he has to give a dishonest answer. 

As an employer, it's my job to spot the liar, even the most skilled bull shiter has a track record, one that will quickly expose him for the liar he is, and he won't get the job.

QuoteSo,

Be honest and remain unemployed therefore satisfying the condition of if one refuses to work he doesn't eat.

No, if you are so stupid as to answer as does a child, then you do not deserve the job.
As I said in an earlier post, research the company, point out all the positives of the company, especially where they help the community in obscure ways.
Everyone wants to be recognized for the good they do, even the human resources agent interviewing you.

QuoteBe dishonest, gain possible employment, and be immoral and sinful by being dishonest.

Either way it's a catch-22.  This is another perfect example of reductionism in my paper I posted here entitled "My problems with Personality Advocates." How does one be noble and good?

No it's not! Being brutally honest is simply stupid, and blaming it on autism is a cop out.
Is telling an employer you want to work for them because "One" of the reasons is they are good for the community, as opposed to stating the obvious, you need a paycheck?

The latter is simply stupid! Of course you need a paycheck to survive, or you wouldn't be there and they know it.
You need to convince them you chose to offer them your skill set to them, as opposed to ABC corp down the street because they don't support the community as well.

None of this is lying. But telling a potential employer you want a job because you need money is nothing short of stupid.
Do I make myself clear?

Quote from: cubedemon on June 28, 2015, 07:32:28 AM
Realistically, most people live together in a society.  If the maxim of Life is what YOU make it is true then this means one has to assume one has control over every aspect of his life, right?  If not, why?  If yes and assuming this maxim applies to everyone across the planet then life is how the majority of people and leaders chooses to make it, correct?  With laws, social standards, etc?  If this is true then the maxim of life is what you make it can't be true since what one can and can't do limited by what the majority and leaders decide. 

Therefore by logic, we can say that It is not true that Life is what you make it.  If this is true then by logic it is somewhat false to state that Life is what you make it.

No! Only an idiot follows the crowd. Life is what "YOU" make it, not what the majority decides is good.

Quote from: cubedemon on July 01, 2015, 08:52:15 AM
Thing is though "life is what you make it" is not totally true.   Life has constraints and we're all bounded by laws of time, space and nature(nature of ourselves and our external environment) and social norms and dictates.  Even if one removed all of these constraints and people were like Q, life is what others make it as well.  I'm still bound by the majority's wishes, dictates and demands.

It is true that no Utopia exists and let's assume that no Utopia can exist.  By logic, if none of us can make a Utopia then this proves even further that we all have constraints to life and existence and the idea life is what we make it is not totally true.

Walkstall said "I know you have Autism.  But if you don't get past that!  You will have a hard time in the real world.  "

Thing is Autism can't be just gotten past. This is the very nature of my condition.  If my brain is sick and deformed then how can my very nature allow me to just get past it?  I have senses that take in information as input and my brain is the processor that transforms it into output.   So, my brain is processing input as garbage won't the outputs be garbage.   So, how can I used my disabled and deformed brain if my very disabled and deformed brain and the very nature of it got me into my situation?  How can I pull myself out if my very brain and thoughts are the ones that led me to my life outcomes of today?   

This is why I've concluded that if I'm to get past it then what I would need is other people's assistance mainly guidance, instruction and others answering of my questions. In addition, I have motor coordination problems and an all or nothing, literal based thinking.  How do I overcome these things using my very thinking?   Telling me to use common sense and critical thinking will not work because my brain is different from the Neurotypical brain which means your red is my green.

This is what I mean when personal responsibility advocates do a form of reductionism meaning they oversimplify things to the point of distortion.   Walkstall says to get past it or really to get over it and pull myself by my own bootstraps.   How?  How do I do this?

If I could do it then logically I would have done it.  Let's say that I'm a selfish person and I only want to benefit myself and only care about myself which is not true.  Looking at it logically, wouldn't I do the thing(s) that would bring me the most gain and the least amount of pain.  Being employed pays way more than any kind of welfare or disability benefits.  If I could overcome my autism and pull myself by bootstraps then why I haven't I done so to become gainfully employed.  With welfare benefits, it is called TANF and one can only receive them for a limited time anyway.  So, with welfare being temporary wouldn't it behoove those on welfare to not stay on it to long?

Let's say it is slothfulness or laziness.  Why would I be slothful or lazy?  How would my being lazy or slothful be beneficial to me.   If laziness, slothfulness or any other vice brings harm to themselves why would anyone choose to harm themselves?  If everyone could be personally responsible for themselves and they could make their own life then wouldn't they logically do so especially if a person is selfish and only cares about himself because aren't these things more likely to bring benefit to themselves?   So, why would anyone choose not to bring benefit to themselves and do these things if these things do indeed bring benefits?  If selfishness is so reviled these days then why would anyone choose selfishness? 

This is the problem with the belief system of personal responsibility advocates.  Because of the reductionist nature of the belief system, it oversimplifies things to the point of distortion that lead to inconsistencies and contradictions.

I suggest you reread what I said and take it to heart.

Your perspective to life is what is most important, not mine or anyone elses. If you choose to be a victim, then that's exactly what you are, if you want to see the bright side of all life has to offer, including obstacles to overcome, then like me, you too will be blessed.
It's all a matter of perspective. For ever obstacle overcome, a blessed outcome was the result.

But if you see life as one big obstacle, and avoid most of it, as simply a way of existing, then you're missing out on the gift of life.
That gift is conquering life and making it yours.

QuoteOf course i's over simplified, but it's up to you to understand simplicity, not a failure on my part.

Why?  Why is it up to me to understand simplicity and not up to you to make sure your communication is clear and understood by the receiver?   

QuoteAs an employer, it's my job to spot the liar, even the most skilled bull shiter has a track record, one that will quickly expose him for the liar he is, and he won't get the job.No, if you are so stupid as to answer as does a child, then you do not deserve the job.

Why?

QuoteAs I said in an earlier post, research the company, point out all the positives of the company, especially where they help the community in obscure ways.

Duly noted!

QuoteEveryone wants to be recognized for the good they do, even the human resources agent interviewing you.

True

QuoteNo it's not! Being brutally honest is simply stupid, and blaming it on autism is a cop out.

Part of being on the Autism Spectrum is being developmentally delayed.   My brain doesn't develop typically like the neurotypical leaving me befuddled on certain things.  You say it is stupid.  I wouldn't say that as an answer as I know it would not get me the job.   I know what but know not why.   

QuoteIs telling an employer you want to work for them because "One" of the reasons is they are good for the community, as opposed to stating the obvious, you need a paycheck?

If I believed the former in my heart as true and stated it then I would be honest, noble and true.  If I did not believe the former in my heart as true and stated the former then I would be dishonest and dishonorable.   The true and honest answer is the latter if one believes the latter as truth.   If one says something to what is not and gives false information and knowing that it was false then one has lied and is a liar.   

QuoteThe latter is simply stupid! Of course you need a paycheck to survive, or you wouldn't be there and they know it.
You need to convince them you chose to offer them your skill set to them, as opposed to ABC corp down the street because they don't support the community as well.

Okay, I understand what you're saying now.   Now, my confusion on this is resolved.   What I'm supposed to do is find an employer who I support and offer my skills set to them or find a reason to support them that I believe to be true and legit.   You see, I didn't consider this, realize this and understand this.   Now, I do.   What you need to understand is obvious to you is not obvious to me.   I appreciate the information you gave and your help to resolve my confusion. 

QuoteNone of this is lying. But telling a potential employer you want a job because you need money is nothing short of stupid.
Do I make myself clear?

Abundantly!  Yes, it makes perfect sense.  What you're saying is don't just apply to anyone and everyone but cull the herd and select the ones who share my causes, values and whom I vibe with by looking them up online and calling as well to ask questions.   Thanks!  I appreciate your response on this and it helps a lot.   

Quote from: cubedemon on July 02, 2015, 12:28:00 PM
Why?  Why is it up to me to understand simplicity and not up to you to make sure your communication is clear and understood by the receiver?   

It was clear, it's not my responsibility to make special allowances for you.
Learn this, it's a life lesson.

QuoteWhy?

Why what?   

QuoteIf I believed the former in my heart as true and stated it then I would be honest, noble and true.  If I did not believe the former in my heart as true and stated the former then I would be dishonest and dishonorable.   The true and honest answer is the latter if one believes the latter as truth.   If one says something to what is not and gives false information and knowing that it was false then one has lied and is a liar.   

Again, this is common sense with a dash of etiquette.
You wouldn't tell someone they look ugly wearing that dress would you?
Being brutally honest is not how one goes through life.

QuoteOkay, I understand what you're saying now.   Now, my confusion on this is resolved.   What I'm supposed to do is find an employer who I support and offer my skills set to them or find a reason to support them that I believe to be true and legit.   You see, I didn't consider this, realize this and understand this.   Now, I do.   What you need to understand is obvious to you is not obvious to me.   I appreciate the information you gave and your help to resolve my confusion. 

Abundantly!  Yes, it makes perfect sense.  What you're saying is don't just apply to anyone and everyone but cull the herd and select the ones who share my causes, values and whom I vibe with by looking them up online and calling as well to ask questions.   Thanks!  I appreciate your response on this and it helps a lot.

Good, you're making headway.
You would never work for someone that goes against your values, I know I wouldn't, which is why I was always in business for myself.
If I can't back a product 100%, then I can't sell it with total conviction, let alone sleep at night.

QuoteIt was clear, it's not my responsibility to make special allowances for you.

True and I appreciate that you did 

QuoteLearn this, it's a life lesson.

I have. 

   

QuoteAgain, this is common sense with a dash of etiquette.


You wouldn't tell someone they look ugly wearing that dress would you?
Being brutally honest is not how one goes through life.

Which means that I can secure your agreement that at times dishonesty is noble and honesty is a vice.  Correct?

QuoteGood, you're making headway.
You would never work for someone that goes against your values, I know I wouldn't, which is why I was always in business for myself.
If I can't back a product 100%, then I can't sell it with total conviction, let alone sleep at night.

Agreed 

Quote from: Solar on July 02, 2015, 11:44:34 AM
No! Only an idiot follows the crowd. Life is what "YOU" make it, not what the majority decides is good.

http://conservativepoliticalforum.com/survival-tips/'20-rules-to-live-by-as-america-goes-to-hell-'/

18: When in Rome, look, smell and act like the locals. Don't stand out. Don't gawk.

Okay, what is the correct way that one is supposed to go?  Am I supposed to follow rule 18 created by the author Silverdeth, posted by quiller and agreed upon by you here

http://conservativepoliticalforum.com/survival-tips/'20-rules-to-live-by-as-america-goes-to-hell-'/msg241843/#msg241843

or does only an idiot follow rule number 18?

When one is in a given area one has to follow the social standards of the area that one is in.   It is the majority that determines what these standards are.   

For example, eye contact is a required social standard in the USA.  As an Autistic, this presents problems for me as this causes pain for me.  Can I be exempted from it?  My experience is no.

It's the majority living and interacting together in a given area(s) which determine the social norms overtime.   They're the ones who determine what the penalty is for violating these norms including ostracizing you.  Employers can decide not to here you.   People can choose not to buy from you.

In addition, one's ability to make one's life is shaped by one's nature and one's experiences.  The idea that one has absolute control of one's life and can absolutely shape it to whatever one desires makes absolutely no sense given the empirical reality that we all live in especially with the social veneer, laws of one's own nature, laws of society, and laws of existence. 

To claim that "Life is what "YOU" make it = True" can't be so since constraints from many facets of life do exist.

By the way, the phrase not true does not equal false.   

Let's say we have the proposition that it is not true that some birds are birds that can fly.   

Another way of saying it is "There are some birds that cannot fly."   

So,what I'm saying is that there are times that life is not what one makes it. 

Even if one left society and went to another one, one is still constrained to their laws, norms and laws of existence as well.   Even if one lived like the Unabomber in a cabin isolated from society one is still constrained to one's own nature and the nature of existence.  To claim that life is what one makes it as being true and absolute is absurd and has no basis in logic and rationality whatsoever. 

Even Q from Star Trek had his powers constrained by the other Q's in the Q continuum.  To claim that life is what one makes it is to claim that one has no internal or external constraints has no basis in reason.

If this proposition that you have is true than by logic reasoning life would be fair, one would have utopia and everyone would be able to get what they wanted and needed.   

Either, we must accept that life is unfair and truth and reject the absoluteness of your proposition or one can accept it as truth and therefore we can create a fair and just society and everyone can get what they need and want.  To accept both propositions as true is to accept inconsistency in your belief system.

Quote from: cubedemon on July 03, 2015, 08:07:58 AM
http://conservativepoliticalforum.com/survival-tips/'20-rules-to-live-by-as-america-goes-to-hell-'/

18: When in Rome, look, smell and act like the locals. Don't stand out. Don't gawk.

Okay, what is the correct way that one is supposed to go?  Am I supposed to follow rule 18 created by the author Silverdeth, posted by quiller and agreed upon by you here

http://conservativepoliticalforum.com/survival-tips/'20-rules-to-live-by-as-america-goes-to-hell-'/msg241843/#msg241843

or does only an idiot follow rule number 18?

When one is in a given area one has to follow the social standards of the area that one is in.   It is the majority that determines what these standards are.   

For example, eye contact is a required social standard in the USA.  As an Autistic, this presents problems for me as this causes pain for me.  Can I be exempted from it?  My experience is no.

It's the majority living and interacting together in a given area(s) which determine the social norms overtime.   They're the ones who determine what the penalty is for violating these norms including ostracizing you.  Employers can decide not to here you.   People can choose not to buy from you.

In addition, one's ability to make one's life is shaped by one's nature and one's experiences.  The idea that one has absolute control of one's life and can absolutely shape it to whatever one desires makes absolutely no sense given the empirical reality that we all live in especially with the social veneer, laws of one's own nature, laws of society, and laws of existence. 

To claim that "Life is what "YOU" make it = True" can't be so since constraints from many facets of life do exist.

By the way, the phrase not true does not equal false.   

Let's say we have the proposition that it is not true that some birds are birds that can fly.   

Another way of saying it is "There are some birds that cannot fly."   

So,what I'm saying is that there are times that life is not what one makes it. 

Even if one left society and went to another one, one is still constrained to their laws, norms and laws of existence as well.   Even if one lived like the Unabomber in a cabin isolated from society one is still constrained to one's own nature and the nature of existence.  To claim that life is what one makes it as being true and absolute is absurd and has no basis in logic and rationality whatsoever. 

Even Q from Star Trek had his powers constrained by the other Q's in the Q continuum.  To claim that life is what one makes it is to claim that one has no internal or external constraints has no basis in reason.

If this proposition that you have is true than by logic reasoning life would be fair, one would have utopia and everyone would be able to get what they wanted and needed.   

Either, we must accept that life is unfair and truth and reject the absoluteness of your proposition or one can accept it as truth and therefore we can create a fair and just society and everyone can get what they need and want.  To accept both propositions as true is to accept inconsistency in your belief system.

NO!!! You Figure It Out This Time....

Quote from: Solar on July 02, 2015, 11:55:03 AM
I suggest you reread what I said and take it to heart.

Your perspective to life is what is most important, not mine or anyone elses. If you choose to be a victim, then that's exactly what you are, if you want to see the bright side of all life has to offer, including obstacles to overcome, then like me, you too will be blessed.
It's all a matter of perspective. For ever obstacle overcome, a blessed outcome was the result.

But if you see life as one big obstacle, and avoid most of it, as simply a way of existing, then you're missing out on the gift of life.
That gift is conquering life and making it yours.

Therein lies the issue right here.  I did reread what you said and I question it and I dispute it.  It doesn't matter what my perspective to life is.   My consciousness doesn't make the fabric of time and space.  My consciousness is not primacy.  It is existence that is primacy.  Even if consciousness is primacy I'm still bound and things are still bound by conscious minds.   

If I think I'm extremely intelligent and others do not it doesn't matter what I think.  People are going to believe I'm not intelligent whether I think I am or I am not even if my IQ score says that I am.   This affects how I will be treated in a given society including being gainfully employed. 

Let's go back to the employer's question of "Why do you want to work here?"  What you gave as an answer is but a societal construct including what is rudeness and brutal honesty.  Society's standards determines what actions one is supposed to take in given situations. 

It doesn't matter what my wishes, hopes, dreams and prayers are; reality is absolute and is independent of these things. 

Quote from: Solar on July 03, 2015, 08:14:32 AM
NO!!! You Figure It Out This Time....

No, it's not up to me to figure it out.   The burden of proof is upon you to prove your claims are valid and true through logical consistency and through empirical evidence.   It is up to you to create well constructed, clear, logical claims which you have the responsibility for backing up especially if someone questions the validity of the claim.

Ask any liberal child. It's never, ever their fault. People are hateful if they don't agree with you. You DESERVE greatness, so why aren't others bestowing it?

Golly, we're just a bunch of monsters around here for smacking young trolls, aren't we?

Quote from: cubedemon on July 03, 2015, 08:38:52 AM
No, it's not up to me to figure it out.   The burden of proof is upon you to prove your claims are valid and true through logical consistency and through empirical evidence.   It is up to you to create well constructed, clear, logical claims which you have the responsibility for backing up especially if someone questions the validity of the claim.

Why are you under the illusion , me, or anyone else owes you a damned thing?
Let this be a lesson in life. You nor anyone else dictates what I do, how I respond, or whether I respond at all.
Like I said, I gave you an answer, it's not incumbent upon me to walk you by the hand explaining the meaning of each and every word or iteration thereof.

In other words, figure it out on your own.
I owe you nothing, I have a forum to run, and your demands come across like that of a spoiled child demanding answers to a toddlers imperative and jussive mood of "Whhhhhyyy?".