Quote from: Solar on July 12, 2019, 08:01:48 AM
By kneeling they are complicit in the actions of others. Like being the get away driver in a holdup.

Complicit to whom and what specific others?

Quote from: alienhand on July 12, 2019, 09:58:41 PM
Complicit to whom and what specific others?

reread what I wrote and think it through.

Quote from: Solar on July 12, 2019, 10:02:38 PM
reread what I wrote and think it through.

Solar, the burden is not up to me to think it through; the burden of proof is upon others to prove, explain and/or justify their claim.

Besides, I'm not Miss Cleo and I don't have psychic powers or telepathy.

Colin and others didn't disrupt anything, make noise, spat, set fires, etc by kneeling. Did they vandalize anything? They kneeled and remained silent.  In fact, kneeling throughout history has been a form of respect and deference.  How exactly did they spit on the flag and how were they disrespectful to those who fought for their freedom (I have questions about this part which I will bring up on another topic)?  Colin and others were showing respect and deference while at the same time pointing out a major issue for black people.

Are you saying if I don't show respect in the exact way demanded then I'm being disrespectful?  Even if I sat there, did nothing and said nothing I'm still being disrespectful? 

I don't know but forcing ppl to sing or stand for a flag or national anthem does not in my mind celebrate our freedoms.  If it does, I don't get it.  And, what of some Christians who see that as breaking one of ten commandments as in worshiping other gods, idols and graven images.  And, some believe this.  If they started praying to God instead are they being disrespectful?

Quote from: Sick Of Silence on July 12, 2019, 03:02:03 PM
Put it this way: you don't bite the hand that feeds you.

The flag, the anthem, the history, the memory, etc. is the reason we have Constitutional freedoms in the first place.

And, how exactly are they biting the hand that feeds them?

When you live in America, you get special privileges. Those are Constitutional freedoms and rights that other countries don't give their citizens. Those freedoms and rights are represented by our flag and anthem.

By not respecting the American flag or the anthem, you are disrespecting the very privilege the flag and anthem represents.

To bite the hand that feeds you is to show ingratitude toward, or otherwise turn against.

Quote from: Sick Of Silence on July 13, 2019, 01:55:49 AM
When you live in America, you get special privileges. Those are Constitutional freedoms and rights that other countries don't give their citizens. Those freedoms and rights are represented by our flag and anthem.

By not respecting the American flag or the anthem, you are disrespecting the very privilege the flag and anthem represents.

To bite the hand that feeds you is to show ingratitude toward, or otherwise turn against.

Ok!   If it is so disrespectful to kneel during the national anthem then why are people buying food from the concession stands and no one is calling out their disrespect?   

https://www.star-telegram.com/sports/nfl/dallas-cowboys/article176437931.html

And...

How many people violate the flag code on a consistent basis?   

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Flag_Code

If it is really about disrespect to the flag and anthem then why aren't the violators of this code getting a verbal beating  as well? 

Why say something to Colin but not to others violating this flag code and others who go to the concession stands?   Why keep the concession stands open during the anthem? 

Quote from: alienhand on July 12, 2019, 10:37:41 PM
Solar, the burden is not up to me to think it through; the burden of proof is upon others to prove, explain and/or justify their claim.

Besides, I'm not Miss Cleo and I don't have psychic powers or telepathy.

Colin and others didn't disrupt anything, make noise, spat, set fires, etc by kneeling. Did they vandalize anything? They kneeled and remained silent.  In fact, kneeling throughout history has been a form of respect and deference.  How exactly did they spit on the flag and how were they disrespectful to those who fought for their freedom (I have questions about this part which I will bring up on another topic)?  Colin and others were showing respect and deference while at the same time pointing out a major issue for black people.

Are you saying if I don't show respect in the exact way demanded then I'm being disrespectful?  Even if I sat there, did nothing and said nothing I'm still being disrespectful? 

I don't know but forcing ppl to sing or stand for a flag or national anthem does not in my mind celebrate our freedoms.  If it does, I don't get it.  And, what of some Christians who see that as breaking one of ten commandments as in worshiping other gods, idols and graven images.  And, some believe this.  If they started praying to God instead are they being disrespectful?

Wrong son, the words are there, they state quite clearly my meaning.
Society doesn't ask much, but it does demand that you respect the mores and conventions that embody the fundamental values of this Nation; Rights and Freedoms granted by God.
To do otherwise slaps in the face of those who fought so you could act like an ass in your insistence of disrespecting the symbol we rally around as a cohesive societal movement/norm.

The point is, if we all took the attitude that the flag was just a rag, that our Founding Ideals were meaningless, society would collapse in a day and you could kiss your paycheck good bye. (does that make it clear?)
So I suggest you quit acting the fool and do as society expects, and respect the damn flag, stand with your hand over your heart and recite the Pledge!!!

Quote from: Solar on July 13, 2019, 06:05:28 AM
Wrong son, the words are there, they state quite clearly my meaning.

1.  No, for me they don't. 

2.  Burden of proof means that it is upon the claimant to prove and/or explain his claim.  No, it's not up to me to play guessing games or to "think it through" myself.  If I make the claim unicorns exist it's up to me to proof this claim.

Quote from: Solar on July 13, 2019, 06:05:28 AM
Society doesn't ask much, but it does demand that you respect the mores and conventions that embody the fundamental values of this Nation; Rights and Freedoms granted by God.

So, if that's the case then why can't I personally choose to pledge to and be thankful to God directly?  Why do I have to pledge to a flag, symbol, intermediary, etc?

Quote from: Solar on July 13, 2019, 06:05:28 AM
To do otherwise slaps in the face of those who fought so you could act like an ass in your insistence of disrespecting the symbol we rally around as a cohesive societal movement/norm.

How is kneeling disrespect though?   If you see someone kneeling at a sports event during this anthem and doing nothing but kneeling how have they disturbed or disrupted anything?   Did they set any fires, make any noises, spit, etc?   How does that person impact your life? 

Quote from: Solar on July 13, 2019, 06:05:28 AM
The point is, if we all took the attitude that the flag was just a rag, that our Founding Ideals were meaningless, society would collapse in a day and you could kiss your paycheck good bye. (does that make it clear?)

Again, how does kneeling take the attitude that the flag is a rag?  What if a Christian didn't believe in doing the national anthem but prayed to God instead and prayed that the nation as a whole and the people have good health?   

And, as for society collapsing other things could cause society's collapse anyway like a virus or resources become more and more scarce.  Point is all you're doing is a slippery slope in which I and others don't put our hands on our hearts a series of events will happen that will cause it's collapse. 

Quote from: Solar on July 13, 2019, 06:05:28 AM
So I suggest you quit acting the fool and do as society expects, and respect the damn flag, stand with your hand over your heart and recite the Pledge!!!

So, if I don't stand with my hand over my heart and recite the pledge word for word I'm disrespecting the flag.  No questions asked!  It's either all or nothing.  No exceptions even if one was in a wheelchair or one didn't believe in doing the pledge cause he believed he was violating the commandment from God of worshiping other Gods.  Or, one changes one's form and body position to a kneeling and submissive position to still show reverence and respect while still trying to make a statement and/or point.  Ya, if one burns the flag or spits on it as protest ya I understand (and that is disrespectful) but kneeling and curtsying which was seen as a form of deference and respect for centuries is now seen as disrespectful.

Come on!  Seriously?  Do you realize how ridiculous this whole political theater is?

And, what about those who go to the concession stands? 

Quote from: alienhand on July 13, 2019, 06:57:32 AM
1.  No, for me they don't. 

2.  Burden of proof means that it is upon the claimant to prove and/or explain his claim.  No, it's not up to me to play guessing games or to "think it through" myself.  If I make the claim unicorns exist it's up to me to proof this claim.

That's your problem, not mine! My words were quite clear, your inability to understand them falls upon you to figure it out.

QuoteSo, if that's the case then why can't I personally choose to pledge to and be thankful to God directly?  Why do I have to pledge to a flag, symbol, intermediary, etc?
How is kneeling disrespect though?   If you see someone kneeling at a sports event during this anthem and doing nothing but kneeling how have they disturbed or disrupted anything?   Did they set any fires, make any noises, spit, etc?   How does that person impact your life? 

Again, how does kneeling take the attitude that the flag is a rag?  What if a Christian didn't believe in doing the national anthem but prayed to God instead and prayed that the nation as a whole and the people have good health?   

Already explained, I won't do it again!

QuoteAnd, as for society collapsing other things could cause society's collapse anyway like a virus or resources become more and more scarce.  Point is all you're doing is a slippery slope in which I and others don't put our hands on our hearts a series of events will happen that will cause it's collapse.

Again, already explained.

QuoteSo, if I don't stand with my hand over my heart and recite the pledge word for word I'm disrespecting the flag.  No questions asked!  It's either all or nothing.

That's Right! You are blessed to live in a country that grants you the freedom of speech, but your actions in the negative insult those who gave their lives so you could act like an ass.
Your standing for the pledge recognizes their sacrifices. Or are you telling me it's OK to dance on the graves of the fallen?

QuoteNo exceptions even if one was in a wheelchair or one didn't believe in doing the pledge cause he believed he was violating the commandment from God of worshiping other Gods. 

Now you're grasping at straws. Knock it off if you want to be taken seriously!

QuoteOr, one changes one's form and body position to a kneeling and submissive position to still show reverence and respect while still trying to make a statement and/or point.  Ya, if one burns the flag or spits on it as protest ya I understand (and that is disrespectful) but kneeling and curtsying which was seen as a form of deference and respect for centuries is now seen as disrespectful.

Disrespect is still disrespect

QuoteCome on!  Seriously?  Do you realize how ridiculous this whole political theater is?

It's called societal norms, if you don't like it, then Fuckin Leave, no one is stopping you, but then, who will feed you?

QuoteAnd, what about those who go to the concession stands?

They all stop and face the flag as well, nothing changes just because you're standing in line.

What is wrong with you, that you can't show a little respect for those that fought and died protecting your freedoms?

Quote from: alienhand on July 13, 2019, 03:03:03 AM
Ok!   If it is so disrespectful to kneel during the national anthem then why are people buying food from the concession stands and no one is calling out their disrespect?   

https://www.star-telegram.com/sports/nfl/dallas-cowboys/article176437931.html

And...

How many people violate the flag code on a consistent basis?   

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Flag_Code

If it is really about disrespect to the flag and anthem then why aren't the violators of this code getting a verbal beating  as well? 

Why say something to Colin but not to others violating this flag code and others who go to the concession stands?   Why keep the concession stands open during the anthem?

There is a difference between being stuck in line for the restroom or concession in a packed stadium and intentionally disrespecting the anthem or flag. It is the intent. The whole point of a game is to entertain people. Selling the experience. Selling things along with it whether it is food, drink, or assorted crap.

If I am carrying an American flag and I accidently drop it, I immediately pick it up. My intent is to not disrespect it or harm it. If I am not outside in the main stadium grounds, I can't stand with others. My intent is not about disrespecting the anthem. When you are in a stadium with that many people during the average game, you are in a line for everything. To come in. To pee. To buy a hotdog. To leave.

Kneeling or sitting down during the anthem is disrespectful because that is the intent. Protocol is to stand with your right hand over your heart.

None of these people have to kneel or do anything during the anthem. I don't go to  a mosque on Fridays and raise my middle fingers to the crowd. They don't kneel to the Mexican anthem or for other countries when police abuse is far more prevalent.
The act may be simple but their is no doubt what some of the sports players are sending to the crowd. If you do not want to participate then just stand there.   

Quote from: Sick Of Silence on July 13, 2019, 08:04:29 AM
There is a difference between being stuck in line for the restroom or concession in a packed stadium and intentionally disrespecting the anthem or flag. It is the intent. The whole point of a game is to entertain people. Selling the experience. Selling things along with it whether it is food, drink, or assorted crap.

If I am carrying an American flag and I accidently drop it, I immediately pick it up. My intent is to not disrespect it or harm it. If I am not outside in the main stadium grounds, I can't stand with others. My intent is not about disrespecting the anthem. When you are in a stadium with that many people during the average game, you are in a line for everything. To come in. To pee. To buy a hotdog. To leave.

Kneeling or sitting down during the anthem is disrespectful because that is the intent. Protocol is to stand with your right hand over your heart.

1.  People have gotten up out of their seats or walked towards the concession stands during the games.

2.  Shouldn't they shut the concession stands down.

3.  And, people will be on their cell phone as well.

4.  How do you know that was their intent?  I saw them as being respectful but pointing out a problem.  And, there in lies the crux.  Respect and perception of disrespect is matter of subjective interpretation.

5.  And, if we truthfully respected this flag and anthem then why don't people in this nation follow the flag code?  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Flag_Code

6.  And, if it was really about intent then why make a deal about the protocol?  Does the form matter or does substance matter? 

Why do I see people wearing it on their pants and shirt all the time?   Why don't no one say or complain about the concession stands being open during this anthem and clear violations of the flag code that happen all the time yet we bust Colin and other people's balls for kneeling?   

If it really was about respecting the flag and anthem then these standards would be applied consistently and evenly to everyone.   Looking at others, it is not and it makes me ask is it really about respecting the anthem and flag or is it about something else?

They are there to watch a game. People will stand during the anthem like they would with any sporting event. If they are not in their seats at time, we will not generally fault them given the situation. The players who kneel during the anthem do so intentionally. That is what this thread is about.

There is no problem. Most things Liberals point out is not a problem. It's fake outrage.

No, they should not close the concession stands. The only thing they should do is stop price-gauging to a captive audience. But, that is a different discussion.

Having the American flag on a T-shirt isn't a big deal. The only people complaining about that are people who hate the American flag.

Quote from: Solar on July 13, 2019, 07:44:06 AM
That's your problem, not mine! My words were quite clear, your inability to understand them falls upon you to figure it out.

Clarity is a matter of interpretation. 

Quote from: Solar on July 13, 2019, 07:44:06 AM
Already explained, I won't do it again!

You didn't really explain much of anything.

Quote from: Solar on July 13, 2019, 07:44:06 AM
Again, already explained.

Not really!

Quote from: Solar on July 13, 2019, 07:44:06 AM
That's Right! You are blessed to live in a country that grants you the freedom of speech, but your actions in the negative insult those who gave their lives so you could act like an ass.

For the most part, I don't even go the games anyway for the most part.  I've been maybe 1-3 times in my entire life.   

Honestly, I don't think in a free country that one should be made to stand for some anthem or flag.  At least one can't be arrested like one can in other countries but still.  To force someone to stand for a national anthem and a flag goes against our very core principles.  Even God himself said we wasn't supposed to have other gods before him so are we disrespecting God and spitting in his face by even having a pledge to a flag or having an anthem and seemingly worship it like it is a god?   Some Christians think so.

Personally, I would never show up for these games for the most part and the only reason I showed up for the ones I did was to spend time with my family and I went through the motions of the anthem.  Otherwise, I simply would never show up.  One can't be disrespectful if one is not there in the first place. 

If they want to really do something then simply don't show up where one knows the anthem will be played.  Don't show up and boycott the games and the players like Colin should simply finish out their season, save their money and quit the team.  In fact, I would say the coach is right.  Get the fuck out!  Don't show up!  Boycott like they did the Montgomery bus boycots.  How many blacks and other minorities are at these games?   If blacks and other minorities quit showing up how much of a dent would one see in the NBA and NFL's profits especially if more team players quit and more don't bother to sign on?

Quote from: Solar on July 13, 2019, 07:44:06 AM
Your standing for the pledge recognizes their sacrifices. Or are you telling me it's OK to dance on the graves of the fallen?

I disagree.  I think forcing someone whether it is by law or the social veneer is spitting on their graves.   That goes against our very principles of our nation.   Other nations have anthems and pledges.  Our nation is supposed to be the beacon of liberty, light and opportunity for others around the world to come to to uplift themselves.  We're supposed to be better then making pledges and having anthems. 

In fact, doesn't the Bible itself and God himself go against swearing of oaths? 

But I say unto you, Swear not at all;
neither by heaven; for it is God's throne:

— Matthew 5:34

How can any Christian swear and pledge the pledge of allegiance if one is not supposed to swear even by heaven?

Quote from: Solar on July 13, 2019, 07:44:06 AM
Now you're grasping at straws. Knock it off if you want to be taken seriously!

Am I grasping at straws or am I asking questions of things I don't grasp or understand?

Quote from: Solar on July 13, 2019, 07:44:06 AM
Disrespect is still disrespect

Of course disrespect is still disrespect.  That's a tautology.  It's like saying a bachelor is an unmarried person.  But, you still have not explained well why kneeling is disrespect.

Quote from: Solar on July 13, 2019, 07:44:06 AM
It's called societal norms, if you don't like it, then Fuckin Leave, no one is stopping you, but then, who will feed you?

Societal Norms huh?   Yet, the same society that says be yourself, be true to yourself, be who you truly are yet demands things like eye contact even if I literally can't do it b/c it is fucking painful.  A homosexual person who you all are against expressing who he is in front street and want him to go back to the closet and pretend that everything is fine and be double minded.    If we're all expected to follow these societal norms in which we have no vote or say in while at the same time expected to be ourselves and be true to who we are then are we really free, do we really follow the principles of freedom and liberty or is it really Orwell's 1984 in which people don't say what they mean and mean what they say? 

Society:  Be Yourself!
Society:  Not Like that!

Society:  You're free!
Society:  But we don't want you to be free in this way!

And, this makes absolutely 100% perfect sense to you.   

My response to your love it or leave it! 

Hotel California in which one can check out but one can never leave.

In other words, one has no right to reside anywhere.  If one has to have a destination to go to in order to leave and one has no right to another destination besides one's birth country then logically one has no right to leave his birth country.   Departure requires a destination.  No one has a right to a destination.  Therefore no one has a right to depart.

So, love it or leave it makes no sense.

One
As for SSDI, it is not welfare.  It doesn't come from the taxpayers.  It is money that was put in by myself and my employer when I could.  So it is my money that I EARNED!!

As for how would I feed myself.  If my SSDI is threatened Well, I'm going to learn the Bible better then I know and all the relevant quotes of the poor, disabled, etc.   I will have some shirts with neurodiversity.com shirts with a cross on it and differing relevant quotes

Quote from: Solar on July 13, 2019, 07:44:06 AM
They all stop and face the flag as well, nothing changes just because you're standing in line.

Some do!  But not all!  Some stay on their cell phones!

Quote from: Solar on July 13, 2019, 07:44:06 AM
What is wrong with you, that you can't show a little respect for those that fought and died protecting your freedoms?

Nothing is wrong with me except for my autism, concentration and motor coordination problems.  Let's not forget the executive functioning and possibly central auditory processing disorder as well.

As for them dying for my freedoms?  In some of our recent wars like the Gulf war in 91, war in Afghanistan, etc how were they protecting and fighting for my freedoms?   What freedoms did Saddam Hussein take away from me, you and other people in the USA?  Ya, he was a tin pot dictator who we as a nation helped to prop up and support and ya he took away freedoms in Iraq.  But, how were my freedoms, your freedoms and everyone's freedoms here were taken away by Saddam Hussein?  How have the wars we been in  recently protected my freedoms?    What about the United States invasion of Grenada by Ronald Reagan?  What freedoms did that country take away or threaten to take away from us?   

And, if we are truthfully free then why are men forced to sign a piece of paper under the selective service act that forces one to be called upon to fight in a war one might find objectionable.

As for showing respect for disrespect.  Well, who are the definers of what respect and disrespect are?  Me?   God?  the USA?   And where was Walkstall's respect for Mexicans?  How was using a racist slur of "wetback" showing respect?   And, how was calling a Muslim, Muscum respect hmmmm?   What does respect even mean?  To me, it seems to mean whatever you all say it means and disrespect is whatever you all say it means?  So, does that mean respect and disrespect is simply arbitrary and capricious? 

Quote from: Sick Of Silence on July 15, 2019, 01:29:32 AM
They are there to watch a game. People will stand during the anthem like they would with any sporting event. If they are not in their seats at time, we will not generally fault them given the situation. The players who kneel during the anthem do so intentionally. That is what this thread is about.

Intent exists, yes but what is that intent geared for?   Is it really intended to be disrespectful and hatred for one's country or is it intended to still show respect while at the same time pointing out an issue?

Quote from: Sick Of Silence on July 15, 2019, 01:29:32 AM
There is no problem. Most things Liberals point out is not a problem. It's fake outrage.

So, what is considered respect and disrespect are arbitrary and their enforcement by society is capricious and arbitrary then?

Quote from: Sick Of Silence on July 15, 2019, 01:29:32 AM
No, they should not close the concession stands. The only thing they should do is stop price-gauging to a captive audience. But, that is a different discussion.

Point is, if it is really about the flag, anthem and respect for the nation then what would be considered respectful would be applied consistently across the board.  It is not.

Quote from: Sick Of Silence on July 15, 2019, 01:29:32 AM
Having the American flag on a T-shirt isn't a big deal. The only people complaining about that are people who hate the American flag.

Not according to the flag code.