There may yet be hope for the Republicans...

Started by Darth Fife, December 21, 2012, 07:35:12 AM

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thefirebrand

Quote from: Darth Fife on December 21, 2012, 02:11:27 PM
You are just plain wrong.

Look at the chart I posted based on data provided by the IRS itself.

The top 1% make 19% of the total income in this country, yet pay 37% of all Income Tax Revenue.

Now, if you are playing at semantics (as Liberals love to do)  , talking about "wealth" rather than "income", here is news for you. Raising the tax rate doesn't affect "wealth" of the so-called Rich!

Alright, let's get this right first: I am not a liberal. I'm independent. One of the largest issues I see in our country today is extremism, denoted by the fact that liberals and conservatives hold to very disparate sides of the issues. If someone does not completely subscribe to a school of thought, it does not automatically dump them into the opposing group.

The reason I was "playing at semantics" is that the tax issue is a complex one; and you demonstrated it well by citing the numbers above. The 19% that you are talking about does not include income from capital gains, dividends and interest, which are increasingly becoming a source of great income for wealthy people. The reason I referenced "wealth" is because it is a more accurate picture of not just what is being earned in the form of paychecks, but ALL of the income generated by our economy. 

Darth Fife

Quote from: thefirebrand on December 21, 2012, 02:17:51 PM
Alright, let's get this right first: I am not a liberal. I'm independent. One of the largest issues I see in our country today is extremism, denoted by the fact that liberals and conservatives hold to very disparate sides of the issues. If someone does not completely subscribe to a school of thought, it does not automatically dump them into the opposing group.

The reason I was "playing at semantics" is that the tax issue is a complex one; and you demonstrated it well by citing the numbers above. The 19% that you are talking about does not include income from capital gains, dividends and interest, which are increasingly becoming a source of great income for wealthy people. The reason I referenced "wealth" is because it is a more accurate picture of not just what is being earned in the form of paychecks, but ALL of the income generated by our economy.

Most people who claim to be "independents" are usually just Liberals in sheep's clothing. I'm not saying that is what you are, I'm just saying that that is my experience.

As for the "wealth" issue, so what? It is their money, they earned it. On what moral basis do you take someone's earned property (which is what capital gains is) and give it to someone else?


Solar

Quote from: thefirebrand on December 21, 2012, 02:00:39 PM
Wait...are you actually saying that adding 50 billion each year in revenue does nothing to dent the debt? Because that's what will be added by raising taxes as Obama proposes. If that is indeed what you mean, that would be like saying that getting a raise is pointless because it doesn't bring in more money.
I understand what you mean about spending, but I would wager that we differ on WHAT spending should be cut. Here's a handy graph of what comprises the national debt: http://www.laobserved.com/biz/debt3.jpeg
Two wars (unfunded), huge tax cuts for everyone, a recession (which, again, was largely due to improper and fraudulent practices by banks and the mortgage industry) and the recovery comprise most of the debt, and that's where we should be putting most of our energy. Defense spending is ridiculous, and should be decreased. Aid to other countries should be curtailed, as well as subsidies for large and VERY successful corporations. But cutting aid to poor people, children and the elderly should be the LAST idea we entertain.
We ring up 4 billion in debt everyday, and you think 50 billion is going to make an iota of difference?
I'll ask you again, why are you so hyper-focused on taxing people of their own hard earned income, when spending, borrowing and printing currency is at at all time high?
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thefirebrand

Quote from: Darth Fife on December 21, 2012, 02:35:35 PM
Most people who claim to be "independents" are usually just Liberals in sheep's clothing. I'm not saying that is what you are, I'm just saying that that is my experience.

As for the "wealth" issue, so what? It is their money, they earned it. On what moral basis do you take someone's earned property (which is what capital gains is) and give it to someone else?
Well, I hope to disabuse you of that notion :D

Well, let's put it this way. Would you rather raise taxes on a person who works two jobs and is scraping by to put food on the table, or on money that is generated without actual effort by a millionaire? Because taxes have to go up somewhere. This problem cannot be solved by cuts alone.

thefirebrand

Quote from: Solar on December 21, 2012, 02:42:25 PM
We ring up 4 billion in debt everyday, and you think 50 billion is going to make an iota of difference?
I'll ask you again, why are you so hyper-focused on taxing people of their own hard earned income, when spending, borrowing and printing currency is at at all time high?
As I said in that previous post, spending AND revenue are both issues. I spent 1/3 of that response talking about revenue, and the rest talking about where we could make cuts. Please read it and come back to me with discussion about spending if you wish.

Darth Fife

Quote from: thefirebrand on December 21, 2012, 02:47:29 PM
Well, I hope to disabuse you of that notion :D

Well, let's put it this way. Would you rather raise taxes on a person who works two jobs and is scraping by to put food on the table, or on money that is generated without actual effort by a millionaire? Because taxes have to go up somewhere. This problem cannot be solved by cuts alone.

I'd rather have our Government not spend money it doesn't have!

Here is why.

Because if they do raise taxes on those evil "Millionaires and Billionaires" they are not going to use that money to balance the budget or restore fiscal sanity to the Government.

They are going to spend it.

And when they are done spending it, they will raise the taxes again, and spend that.

And the poor will still be poor.


thefirebrand

Quote from: Darth Fife on December 21, 2012, 02:52:44 PM
I'd rather have our Government not spend money it doesn't have!

Here is why.

Because if they do raise taxes on those evil "Millionaires and Billionaires" they are not going to use that money to balance the budget or restore fiscal sanity to the Government.

They are going to spend it.

And when they are done spending it, they will raise the taxes again, and spend that.

And the poor will still be poor.

Well, again, I will reference the CRS tax report that looked at tax rates over time and came to the conclusion that lower tax rates for the wealthy do not spur economic growth. http://www.ombwatch.org/node/12273

In light of that, raising taxes on the wealthy will bring in needed income without a great cost to the economy. So that's good. As far as your issue with the way we spend it, I agree. We have a bloated government that sucks up way too much money. Do you want to get down to the nitty gritty and debate what spending should be cut? :)

Solar

Quote from: thefirebrand on December 21, 2012, 02:47:29 PM
Well, I hope to disabuse you of that notion :D

Well, let's put it this way. Would you rather raise taxes on a person who works two jobs and is scraping by to put food on the table, or on money that is generated without actual effort by a millionaire? Because taxes have to go up somewhere. This problem cannot be solved by cuts alone.
Do you even understand liquidity?
These people have their money working for them in investments and lending institutions.
This is where growth starts, someone comes up with an idea, he looks for investors, but if the Govt is siphoning off the cream, there's not much left for investment. You can only squeeze a turnip of blood for so long till it quits producing.

But again, why are you so focused on theft of other peoples property?

You forget, we are a Capitalist Nation, one where people make their money work for them.
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BILLY Defiant

Quote from: thefirebrand on December 21, 2012, 02:17:51 PM
Alright, let's get this right first: I am not a liberal. I'm independent. One of the largest issues I see in our country today is extremism, denoted by the fact that liberals and conservatives hold to very disparate sides of the issues. If someone does not completely subscribe to a school of thought, it does not automatically dump them into the opposing group.

The reason I was "playing at semantics" is that the tax issue is a complex one; and you demonstrated it well by citing the numbers above. The 19% that you are talking about does not include income from capital gains, dividends and interest, which are increasingly becoming a source of great income for wealthy people. The reason I referenced "wealth" is because it is a more accurate picture of not just what is being earned in the form of paychecks, but ALL of the income generated by our economy.

Do you understand that by raising capitol gains taxes we are screwing ourselves out of Billions and Billions of dollars of revenue from foreign investors?

Billy


Evil operates best when it is disguised for what it truly is.

Darth Fife

Quote from: thefirebrand on December 21, 2012, 03:02:11 PM
Well, again, I will reference the CRS tax report that looked at tax rates over time and came to the conclusion that lower tax rates for the wealthy do not spur economic growth. http://www.ombwatch.org/node/12273

In light of that, raising taxes on the wealthy will bring in needed income without a great cost to the economy. So that's good. As far as your issue with the way we spend it, I agree. We have a bloated government that sucks up way too much money. Do you want to get down to the nitty gritty and debate what spending should be cut? :)

Raising taxes, on anybody, just to give it to the Government which has a long and proven history of irresponsible spending is like giving an alcoholic another beer. 

We don't have a "revenue" problem, we have a spending problem.

Solar

Quote from: Darth Fife on December 21, 2012, 09:54:06 PM
Raising taxes, on anybody, just to give it to the Government which has a long and proven history of irresponsible spending is like giving an alcoholic another beer. 

We don't have a "revenue" problem, we have a spending problem.
Went right over his head, he has swallowed the big leftist lie of the evil, greedy millionaire, the class warfare mantra.
Yet he's convinced himself this makes him a moderate because he's willing to compromise between theft and cutting the budget.
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mdgiles

Quote from: thefirebrand on December 21, 2012, 12:29:44 PM
Also re: rich people paying the "lion's share": The top 1% of earners make 35% of the ENTIRE wealth in this country as of last year, and the top 10% make 75%, while the bottom 50% earned 1.1% of the wealth. That's combined. If we REALLY wanted to make it fair, everyone would pay the taxes they owed corresponding to how much they actually had.
(And before you accuse me of liberal news sources, this is where I get my info: http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/RL33433.pdf
First of all, before you say anything as stupid again; learn the difference between WEALTH and INCOME. THEY'RE NOT THE SAME. And the continual attempt of the left to conflate the two, is simply another attempt to muddy the waters, not to mention an example of a Marxist mindset still anchored in the pre-industrial Germany of the early 19th century.
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Patriot

Quote from: mdgiles on December 22, 2012, 05:57:17 AM
First of all, before you say anything as stupid again; learn the difference between WEALTH and INCOME. THEY'RE NOT THE SAME. And the continual attempt of the left to conflate the two, is simply another attempt to muddy the waters, not to mention an example of a Marxist mindset still anchored in the pre-industrial Germany of the early 19th century.

The far left clearly understands the difference between taxes on income versus wealth.  Their dream is to use taxes for wealth redistribution and only secondarily for revenue.  They believe the only way to help the poor is to take from the rich.  Their view is total wealth is fixed and have no conception of wealth creation - in other words, a zero sum.  That is as far from a conservative, market-focused philosophy as you can get.

I read opinions from multiple sources and viewpoints, but have found discussing that with most on the far left is a pointless exercise.  I completely ignore such posts on conservative sites.  If I wanted to engage in far left discussions, there are plenty of sites such as the Daily Kos.