Quote from: Shanghai Dan on August 12, 2011, 08:33:31 PM
Yeah, and while we're on that...  They want us to call it Holland, they call it the Netherlands, and they consider themselves Dutch.  WTF is with that?  Is it Holland, the Netherlands, or Dutch?  Give me a friggin break!  You don't get 3 names, no how, no way!

Maybe they deserve to capsize too, or have some of those boys with their fingers in the dike take a break...

Ah Hell, I just call it Deutschland. :D

Not sure if I agree with the graph above Shanghi Dan.

There was subsistance level farming in Greenland  in the 11th thru 13th centuries that is not possbile today. Historical tax records show wine growing in northern England around that same time. Hard to believe it was actually cooler than today if the agriculture at the time seems to be reacting to warmer temperatures than we see today.

Quote from: Solar on August 13, 2011, 07:48:15 AM
Ah Hell, I just call it Deutschland. :D

uber alles?

Deutschland über alles - German National Anthem

Quote from: Solar on July 26, 2011, 02:34:00 PM
Lets assume the poles shift this year, will it really effect more than simply a compass, or will it have an even bigger affect on humanity?


http://www.newsbad.com/story/alarming-noaa-data-rapid-pole-shift/july20113348

First, we have to remember that pole shifts aren't the same as pole reversals; although the current wobbling of the magnetic poles (not to be confused with earth's magnetic dipole) may indicate a full polar reversal isn't far off. No big deal; it's happened hundreds of times since the earth cooled enough to maintain a realtively static, solid crust.

It'll play merry hob with all our instruments currently dependent on the poles set as they are, but that's what recalibration knobs are for. As for migratory organisms that use magnetism as one way to guide their travels; it may mess with them a bit, but even a full magnetic reversal shouldn't discombobulate them entirely since they'll still have other cues, such as the position of the sun and the directionality of ocean currents, to orient them.

Quote from: Arelcey on August 30, 2011, 10:40:02 AM
First, we have to remember that pole shifts aren't the same as pole reversals; although the current wobbling of the magnetic poles (not to be confused with earth's magnetic dipole) may indicate a full polar reversal isn't far off. No big deal; it's happened hundreds of times since the earth cooled enough to maintain a realtively static, solid crust.

It'll play merry hob with all our instruments currently dependent on the poles set as they are, but that's what recalibration knobs are for. As for migratory organisms that use magnetism as one way to guide their travels; it may mess with them a bit, but even a full magnetic reversal shouldn't discombobulate them entirely since they'll still have other cues, such as the position of the sun and the directionality of ocean currents, to orient them.

Welcome to the forum Arecley. 8)

I agree, once the poles shift, they will bounce all over the place until they settle in, it will be one Hell of an inconvenience, like switching to the metric system...
Oh wait, we have been doing that since the 70s and still have yet to accept it. ;)

Birds and other critters rely on the poles to navigate, but who really knows how they do it, maybe Nature has a built in failsafe for them, considering they are still around after millions of years.

Quote from: Solar on August 30, 2011, 11:00:06 AM
Welcome to the forum Arecley. 8)

I agree, once the poles shift, they will bounce all over the place until they settle in, it will be one Hell of an inconvenience, like switching to the metric system...
Oh wait, we have been doing that since the 70s and still have yet to accept it. ;)

Birds and other critters rely on the poles to navigate, but who really knows how they do it, maybe Nature has a built in failsafe for them, considering they are still around after millions of years.

Much obliged.

The poles are on the move almost constantly, but usually in incremental distances (maybe only a few tens or hundreds of meters per year, in random directions) which are insignificant in terms of the instruments we focus on them. I once saw a photo taken in the high Arctic, where they plant flags to mark the current position of the North Pole: in the background of the picture you could see at least two dozen flags from various previous years, dotting the ice. But these latest shifts are actually throwing things off. Should be interesting to keep an eye on. I think it'd be sorta cool to live to witness a full global magnetic field-reversal -- a little something to take into oblivion with me when I die.

Quote from: Arelcey on August 30, 2011, 02:54:41 PM
Much obliged.

The poles are on the move almost constantly, but usually in incremental distances (maybe only a few tens or hundreds of meters per year, in random directions) which are insignificant in terms of the instruments we focus on them. I once saw a photo taken in the high Arctic, where they plant flags to mark the current position of the North Pole: in the background of the picture you could see at least two dozen flags from various previous years, dotting the ice. But these latest shifts are actually throwing things off. Should be interesting to keep an eye on. I think it'd be sorta cool to live to witness a full global magnetic field-reversal -- a little something to take into oblivion with me when I die.

Welcome Arecley!  You seem to have lots of lernin'...

Quote from: Arelcey on August 30, 2011, 02:54:41 PM
Much obliged.

The poles are on the move almost constantly, but usually in incremental distances (maybe only a few tens or hundreds of meters per year, in random directions) which are insignificant in terms of the instruments we focus on them. I once saw a photo taken in the high Arctic, where they plant flags to mark the current position of the North Pole: in the background of the picture you could see at least two dozen flags from various previous years, dotting the ice. But these latest shifts are actually throwing things off. Should be interesting to keep an eye on. I think it'd be sorta cool to live to witness a full global magnetic field-reversal -- a little something to take into oblivion with me when I die.

:)) :)) :))
I have a feeling you just might get your wish.
At least it may not be a full reversal, but definitely a major disruption.

It really would be a cool thing to experience, considering the last time it happened, there was no such thing as a compass to even know it happened.

This is akin to a meteor strike, or a new Continent being formed, even a new mountain range forming.
I too look forward with trepidation.... :o

Quote from: taxed on August 30, 2011, 03:04:14 PM

Welcome Arecley!  You seem to have lots of lernin'...

Thank you. ...And, yes, you could say I've picked up a few things here and there.  ;)

Quote from: Arelcey on August 30, 2011, 10:40:02 AM
...As for migratory organisms that use magnetism as one way to guide their travels; it may mess with them a bit, but even a full magnetic reversal shouldn't discombobulate them entirely since they'll still have other cues, such as the position of the sun and the directionality of ocean currents, to orient them...

I don't know if migratory organisms work with cues. IMHO, either their orientation system relies on the relative position of the north and south pole and they'll fly in one direction until they die of whatever'll kill them first (kinda like lemmings) or it doesn't in which case they won't be affected at all. But I seriously doubt that primitive animals have back up systems capable of taking over when the primary ones fail.

Quote from: Realvalues on September 02, 2011, 02:12:35 PM
I don't know if migratory organisms work with cues. IMHO, either their orientation system relies on the relative position of the north and south pole and they'll fly in one direction until they die of whatever'll kill them first (kinda like lemmings) or it doesn't in which case they won't be affected at all. But I seriously doubt that primitive animals have back up systems capable of taking over when the primary ones fail.

The magnetic signatures entombed in sea floor rock suggests otherwise.

The Earth obviously goes through pole reversals fairly often on a geological basis. Often enough to be of relevance to migratory species. Those species that arise, and are entirely dependent on the current state of the poles, would hardly stand a chance of surviving a polar reversal.

Maybe there's evidence of die-offs associated with polar reversals but the die-offs can't have been very significant else the evidence would show up all over the place. It doesn't appear to have. Not definitive evidence pole reversals don't result in die-offs I'll grant but the absence of evidence does, at least, support the idea that poll reversals don't result in large-scale die-offs.

Piling one supposition on another, if there's no evidence of large-scale die-offs associated with pole reversals that either suggests a magnetic sense isn't that important migratory species or that migratory species rely more cues then just sensing the magnetic field.

I'm going with door number two.

Multiple cues means that when one cue fails the others are still guiding the individual critter towards their goal.

The failing cue becomes a survival deficit selectively leading those individuals towards extinction which are too dependent on that cue while advantaging those individuals capable of ignoring the bad directions. One or two reproductive cycles and all the critters that depend to too great and extent on the previous magnetic field direction for navigation are gone.

Nature tends toward redundancy where the redundancy doesn't exact too great a penalty.

Quote from: Solar on August 13, 2011, 07:48:15 AM
Ah Hell, I just call it Deutschland. :D

Geography troll.

Quote from: arpad on September 03, 2011, 06:52:08 AM
The magnetic signatures entombed in sea floor rock suggests otherwise.

The Earth obviously goes through pole reversals fairly often on a geological basis. Often enough to be of relevance to migratory species. Those species that arise, and are entirely dependent on the current state of the poles, would hardly stand a chance of surviving a polar reversal.

Maybe there's evidence of die-offs associated with polar reversals but the die-offs can't have been very significant else the evidence would show up all over the place. It doesn't appear to have. Not definitive evidence pole reversals don't result in die-offs I'll grant but the absence of evidence does, at least, support the idea that poll reversals don't result in large-scale die-offs.

Piling one supposition on another, if there's no evidence of large-scale die-offs associated with pole reversals that either suggests a magnetic sense isn't that important migratory species or that migratory species rely more cues then just sensing the magnetic field.

I'm going with door number two.

Multiple cues means that when one cue fails the others are still guiding the individual critter towards their goal.

The failing cue becomes a survival deficit selectively leading those individuals towards extinction which are too dependent on that cue while advantaging those individuals capable of ignoring the bad directions. One or two reproductive cycles and all the critters that depend to too great and extent on the previous magnetic field direction for navigation are gone.

Nature tends toward redundancy where the redundancy doesn't exact too great a penalty.

Beside the ability to distinguish direction. they also have a built in calendar to work from.
At some point something triggers the seasonal clock and off they fly.
One has to figure they have something more than just a compass to work with, possibly the angle of the Sun?
Which would negate the importance of the poles.

I'm with you on this, I see no evidence of huge die offs, quite the opposite, we see birds that have been around for millions of years.

Quote from: Solar on August 30, 2011, 11:00:06 AM
Welcome to the forum Arecley. 8)

I agree, once the poles shift, they will bounce all over the place until they settle in, it will be one Hell of an inconvenience, like switching to the metric system...
Oh wait, we have been doing that since the 70s and still have yet to accept it. ;)

Birds and other critters rely on the poles to navigate, but who really knows how they do it, maybe Nature has a built in failsafe for them, considering they are still around after millions of years.

I would go two steps further. One, I've accepted it. Two, I hate it, and will never stop hating it.

Get me when I'm young and teach me the tens, OK. Grab me now, after a half-century of living with twelves and threes and sevens and sixteens and thirty-twos and eights... ANYTHING BUT tens... and I'm gonna be grumpy. I'm gonna bust you upside the head. I don't need the grief, ya know?  :P :P :P

Absolutely!
Metric would have been a freakin breeze for a kid, but as an adult, it's a damned conspiracy!
They want to sell us litres at the pump instead of gallons because they know the can raise the price and us old farts won't do the math because we hate the system. ::) :))