Quote from: arpad on December 31, 2010, 05:50:21 PM
1. Gee, that's a nice story. You don't mind if I call the class to order, do you? I thought not.

2. A charter school is a public school that's not part of a school district. That's about it.

3. Of course that's all the difference you need.

4. Parents choose charters and their continued existence depends on keeping kids safe and convincing parents their kids are getting at least a better education then they'd get from district schools. If you were familiar with Detroit Public Schools, or pretty much all big city school districts you'd know that's not a very high standard.

5. District schools, by contrast, are forever. The kids learn, the kids don't learn, kids are shot or beaten up, it doesn't matter. The school will be there, probably with exactly the same staff, when the next school year starts.


6. Periodically the media does stories about the decrepit state of public education infrastructure and there are a couple of schools in the Detroit Public Schools district in which it wouldn't be much of an exaggeration to say a thoughful farmer wouldn't willingly stable his animals.


7. Oh, and to Berggie's claim that private schools are pricey, let's see what the facts are:

Average tuition private schools - $8,549
Average per student expenditure public schools - $10,041

Of course there are school districts that spend way more then the national average. Washington D.C., notable for their shytty schools claimed it spent $15,000 per student. Andrew Coulson, of the Cato Institute did a bit of digging and lo! it turns out the people who run the D.C. district aren't quite as truthful as they might be. He figures their per student spending is more like $28,000 per student.

8.  No, I'm not from Louisiana. I do, however, know a bit about the difference in response following Katrina of charter schools versus the New Orlean school district. The district was about a year and a half behind the charters in opening schools. Now New Orleans has the distinction of having more then half the public school kids going to independent charters. I had hoped that the lower cost of charters, and their obvious success, would have motivated Bobby Jindahl and the legislature to do away with the district but it looks like I'll have to wait.


9. So no, I'm not from Louisiana.

1.  Why the silly ad homenim still?

2.  Actually, that is not about it; there is much more to it.

3.  Only an uninformed novice would make that statement.

4.  Charter schools are overrated.  Some are, of course, very good; but most fall far short of the expectations and the PR that puts the "good face" on them.

5.  We do not disagree on this point.

6.  We do not disagree on this point either.

7.  Private schools are indeed pricey for most people.  Those same people who have to come up with the private tuition must continue to pay their burden to the public school from which they get absolutely no benefit.  My school is among the least expensive private schools.  We charge a tuition of $3,000.00 per year; yet, most of the parents in our demographic pool are hard-pressed to pay the tuition, particularly if they have more than one child.  No private school tuition covers the full cost of a private school.  Our tuition covers about forty-percent of our costs.  We cover the rest through donations and fund raising which takes up much of my time.  Many private school accept, in addition to tuition and doing fund raising, local, state and federal funds in some form.  At that moment, they are hooked.  We do not.

8.  Charter schools, although they are public schools, usually respond better in such crises because of the number of students served and the infrastructure.  Were a charter school as large as a school district with all of its problems, the charter school would likely fair little better with such problems as Katrina.

9. Too bad.  I would have invited you to meet me and tour the school at which I am Headmaster and Principal.

Quote from: Berggeist on December 31, 2010, 06:13:17 PM
1.  Why the silly ad homenim still?

Is it silly when they're well and properly earned?

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2.  Actually, that is not about it; there is much more to it.

Yes, it's all very, very complicated. Far to intricate and delicate for any but trained professionals to even comprehend let alone deal with.

Bullshyt.

It reall is as simple as who's in charge. In the district system parents aren't in charge and are generally considered a nuisance. Among charters and private schools parents are in charge which is why those schools are considered to be superior. At the very least they can't get away with treating parents like dirt.

[quote
3.  Only an uninformed novice would make that statement.
And only a professional unused having his weighty pronouncement contradicted would make that statement.

Quote
4.  Charter schools are overrated.  Some are, of course, very good; but most fall far short of the expectations and the PR that puts the "good face" on them.

Screw you. Charters exist because the district schools suck. Otherwise why would parent bother with the general lack of convenience of charters.

Quote
5.  We do not disagree on this point.

I'm thrilled.

Quote
6.  We do not disagree on this point either.

Too bad you can't see through to the obvious conclusion.

Quote
7.  Private schools are indeed pricey for most people.  Those same people who have to come up with the private tuition must continue to pay their burden to the public school from which they get absolutely no benefit.  My school is among the least expensive private schools.  We charge a tuition of $3,000.00 per year; yet, most of the parents in our demographic pool are hard-pressed to pay the tuition, particularly if they have more than one child.  No private school tuition covers the full cost of a private school.  Our tuition covers about forty-percent of our costs.  We cover the rest through donations and fund raising which takes up much of my time.  Many private school accept, in addition to tuition and doing fund raising, local, state and federal funds in some form.  At that moment, they are hooked.  We do not.

Sorry, I've already proved that private schools aren't pricey. Try to keep up.

Quote
8.  Charter schools, although they are public schools, usually respond better in such crises because of the number of students served and the infrastructure.  Were a charter school as large as a school district with all of its problems, the charter school would likely fair little better with such problems as Katrina.

The problems of the school district are all of its own manufacture. If one charter's more responsive then a district a hundred charters are each, individually, more responsive then a district. You see, it's that unnecessary and valueless district that compounds the problems of education.

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9. Too bad.  I would have invited you to meet me and tour the school at which I am Headmaster and Principal.

We've got charters in Michigan. They've all got waiting lists but the various beneficiaries of the educational status quo are fighting tooth and nail to prevent a raising of the cap. I'm sure that's for the benefit of the public and the kids.

Quote from: arpad on December 31, 2010, 09:01:45 PM
Is it silly when they're well and properly earned?
Yes, it's all very, very complicated. Far to intricate and delicate for any but trained professionals to even comprehend let alone deal with.

Bullshyt.

It reall is as simple as who's in charge. In the district system parents aren't in charge and are generally considered a nuisance. Among charters and private schools parents are in charge which is why those schools are considered to be superior. At the very least they can't get away with treating parents like dirt.
Screw you. Charters exist because the district schools suck. Otherwise why would parent bother with the general lack of convenience of charters.
I'm thrilled.
Too bad you can't see through to the obvious conclusion.
Sorry, I've already proved that private schools aren't pricey. Try to keep up.
The problems of the school district are all of its own manufacture. If one charter's more responsive then a district a hundred charters are each, individually, more responsive then a district. You see, it's that unnecessary and valueless district that compounds the problems of education.
We've got charters in Michigan. They've all got waiting lists but the various beneficiaries of the educational status quo are fighting tooth and nail to prevent a raising of the cap. I'm sure that's for the benefit of the public and the kids.

Arpad,

My father always gave me sound advice.  He told me on more than one occasion that unless I was committed to a killin' with all of the consequences thereof, I should walk away from a discussion which had turned into the proverbial "bladder context," when specifically the other guy had proved to be all bladder.  In your case, I am herewith taking my dear father's advice.

Have a happy New Year up in Michigan.

Quote from: walkstall on January 01, 2011, 11:03:05 AM

:)

Quote from: Berggeist on January 01, 2011, 10:49:14 AM
Arpad,

My father always gave me sound advice.  He told me on more than one occasion that unless I was committed to a killin' with all of the consequences thereof, I should walk away from a discussion which had turned into the proverbial "bladder context," when specifically the other guy had proved to be all bladder.  In your case, I am herewith taking my dear father's advice.

Have a happy New Year up in Michigan.

Is that what he taught you? No advice about what it is that transparent rationalizations advertise about you I assume?

Well, you've obviously managed quite well with the assumption that lies you believe are the equivalent of the truth so who am I to call attention to that oversight? Of course as a former professional in the public education system you could hardly have survived without more then a few juicy rationalizations to cling too so you can sleep at night.

For anyone who's followed this little discussion you now have a example of the attitude of those who are/were employed by the public education system towards any sort of criticism. If they can't shut you up they can certainly ignore you because one of the luxuries enjoyed by those employed by the public education system is that they don't have to concern themselves with criticism. Like all monopolists they understand that coercive power of their position. If you don't like them well, you can go screw yourself.

Fortunately, there is some activity in this area and I'm pretty pleased that the lefties haven't managed to run away with the issue. Jeb Bush has done some very worthwhile things with vouchers in Florida and there's all sorts of other activity. What's really interesting is that there are lefties - Democrats for Education Reform specifically but there are others - who are also interested in substantive reforms.

Hopefully between conservatives on one side and lefties on the other the monster that public education's become can be brought to heel.

You have a happy new year as well.

C'mon, fellas...  :-* :-*

Kiss and make up, now...  :-* :-*

Aw, c'mon...  :-* :-*

Quote from: tbone0106 on January 01, 2011, 05:29:52 PM
C'mon, fellas...  :-* :-*

Kiss and make up, now...  :-* :-*

Aw, c'mon...  :-* :-*

:)As a Christian, one must show mercy to one's enemies; therefore, before one can show mercy, one must have an enemy.  I have obviously, quite inexplicably, acquired a cyber enemy in Arpad.  That being the case, I herewith show him mercy; as we say here in the South - "A Christmas gift upon him!"

Christian duty done; now on to more productive topics and discussions!

Quote from: Berggeist on January 01, 2011, 06:38:49 PM
:)As a Christian, one must show mercy to one's enemies; therefore, before one can show mercy, one must have an enemy.  I have obviously, quite inexplicably, acquired a cyber enemy in Arpad.  That being the case, I herewith show him mercy; as we say here in the South - "A Christmas gift upon him!"

Christian duty done; now on to more productive topics and discussions!

"You're a Good Man, Charlie Brown". ;D

Quote from: Berggeist on January 01, 2011, 06:38:49 PM
:)As a Christian, one must show mercy to one's enemies; therefore, before one can show mercy, one must have an enemy.  I have obviously, quite inexplicably, acquired a cyber enemy in Arpad.  That being the case, I herewith show him mercy; as we say here in the South - "A Christmas gift upon him!"

Christian duty done; now on to more productive topics and discussions!

Oh, you sweetie! I always figured I could count on you to at least stick your arm out toward the olive branch.

Now we just have to get that pesky arpad to get on board...

(God, I'm starting to swish in spite of myself...)
:P :P :P :P

Quote from: Berggeist on January 01, 2011, 06:38:49 PM
:)As a Christian, one must show mercy to one's enemies; therefore, before one can show mercy, one must have an enemy.  I have obviously, quite inexplicably, acquired a cyber enemy in Arpad.  That being the case, I herewith show him mercy; as we say here in the South - "A Christmas gift upon him!"

Christian duty done; now on to more productive topics and discussions!

Oh jeez Berggie, don't take yourself so damned seriously. The only enmity is to your bland condescension and dismissive attitude. Well, there's the hypocrisy of going on endlessly about the Constitution, the founding fathers, original intent and all that stuff while you earned your daily bread dependent on the longest-lived socialist institution in America.

So it's hypocrisy, condescension and dismissiveness. But I forgive you.

Of course I can afford to be magnanimous since the attitudes you represent are everywhere losing favor and the means by which you defend them are entirely defensive.

Quote from: Berggeist on January 01, 2011, 06:38:49 PM
:)As a Christian, one must show mercy to one's enemies; therefore, before one can show mercy, one must have an enemy.  I have obviously, quite inexplicably, acquired a cyber enemy in Arpad.  That being the case, I herewith show him mercy; as we say here in the South - "A Christmas gift upon him!"

Christian duty done; now on to more productive topics and discussions!

Berg, what did you guys cook for New Years??

Quote from: arpad on January 01, 2011, 07:15:12 PM
Oh jeez Berggie, don't take yourself so damned seriously. The only enmity is to your bland condescension and dismissive attitude. Well, there's the hypocrisy of going on endlessly about the Constitution, the founding fathers, original intent and all that stuff while you earned your daily bread dependent on the longest-lived socialist institution in America.

So it's hypocrisy, condescension and dismissiveness. But I forgive you.

Of course I can afford to be magnanimous since the attitudes you represent are everywhere losing favor and the means by which you defend them are entirely defensive.

Priceless!

Berggeist, if I translate it correctly, arpad is saying: "You're a self-important hypocrite who doesn't believe a word he says." But he forgives you because he can afford to, seeing as how you and your worthless kind are in the decline, and deservedly so.

Youse guys can smooch it up now!  :-* :-* :-*

(I think it's as good an offer as you're gonna get....)  :P :P :P

Quote from: taxed on January 01, 2011, 07:34:09 PM
Berg, what did you guys cook for New Years??

I had a Southern Passover.  After the War Between the States, there was little to nothing to eat in much of the South.  Providence being merciful to us, allowed the old black-eyed pea and her cousins the crowder and purple-hull to come up volunteer in many cases.  A cabbage or two and a laid-by sweet potato could be found.  Sometimes, lucky folks had horded corn, buried in the ground against Yankee plunderers.  The most fortunate might have caught and killed a feral hog.

So, in honor of the Lord who provided my ancestors with the sustenance necessary to survive the waning years of the war, the aftermath of the war, including Reconstruction, and then the nearly eighty years of impoverishment up to WWII, and in honor of those ancestors, who had they not survived, I would not have been born, I had the following:  black-eyed peas, cabbage, corn bread, ham, onion, sweet potato (baked) and iced tea with lemon (General Stonewall Jackson loved lemons!).

Quote from: arpad on January 01, 2011, 07:15:12 PM
Oh jeez Berggie, don't take yourself so damned seriously. The only enmity is to your bland condescension and dismissive attitude. Well, there's the hypocrisy of going on endlessly about the Constitution, the founding fathers, original intent and all that stuff while you earned your daily bread dependent on the longest-lived socialist institution in America.

So it's hypocrisy, condescension and dismissiveness. But I forgive you.

Of course I can afford to be magnanimous since the attitudes you represent are everywhere losing favor and the means by which you defend them are entirely defensive.

On bended knee and with great humility, do I submit to the forgiveness offered by thee.  Now, do you want to discuss the young lady with the paring knife?