Conservative Political Forum

General Category => Political Discussion and Debate => Topic started by: Balto on January 30, 2013, 08:04:32 PM

Title: Yay or nay towards marajiuana?
Post by: Balto on January 30, 2013, 08:04:32 PM
I'll come out and say it. I supported legalization of pot (or Amendment 64)) in Colorado. But mainly because I believe pot can only be as if not as less harmful as alcohol. But I have a feeling before joints come like beer mugs, a lot of people will try doing what happened for alcohol: ban it.

Yay or nay?
Title: Re: Yay or nay towards marajiuana?
Post by: walkstall on January 30, 2013, 08:15:33 PM
Quote from: Balto on January 30, 2013, 08:04:32 PM
I'll come out and say it. I supported legalization of pot (or Amendment 64)) in Colorado. But mainly because I believe pot can only be as if not as less harmful as alcohol. But I have a feeling before joints come like beer mugs, a lot of people will try doing what happened for alcohol: ban it.

Yay or nay?

I don't want no pothead or alcoholic working or driving next to me.
Title: Re: Yay or nay towards marajiuana?
Post by: Balto on January 30, 2013, 08:25:07 PM
Quote from: walkstall on January 30, 2013, 08:15:33 PM
I don't want no pothead or alcoholic working or driving next to me.
This is only issue I'm not that conservative about, after that its all tea party and fox news for me.
Title: Re: Yay or nay towards marajiuana?
Post by: Solar on January 30, 2013, 08:27:41 PM
I have absolutely no use for drug users. But if they want to destroy their own life, and it doesn't effect my life in anyway, have at it as long as they stay inside.
Title: Re: Yay or nay towards marajiuana?
Post by: redlom xof on January 30, 2013, 08:39:51 PM
Quoteafter that its all tea party

If you believe in tea party principles you should want to legalize pot. Small government believers don't believe government should regulate what people do to themselves. ( As long as it doesn't effect others.)

Quotehave at it as long as they stay inside.

Wahhh ? what does this mean ?

QuoteI don't want no pothead or alcoholic working or driving next to me.

Smoking pot or drinking alcohol is completely different to driving and working while intoxicated. You're completely mixing up two issues.
Title: Re: Yay or nay towards marajiuana?
Post by: Solar on January 30, 2013, 08:50:50 PM
Quote from: redlom xof on January 30, 2013, 08:39:51 PM
If you believe in tea party principles you should want to legalize pot. Small government believers don't believe government should regulate what people do to themselves. ( As long as it doesn't effect others.)
Wrong! That's Libertarians.
QuoteWahhh ? what does this mean ?
What part about "I have no use for drug users" do you not get?

QuoteSmoking pot or drinking alcohol is completely different to driving and working while intoxicated. You're completely mixing up two issues.
I didn't say that, but if it impedes your abilities, then they are the same.
Title: Re: Yay or nay towards marajiuana?
Post by: Byteryder on January 30, 2013, 10:41:45 PM
Quote from: Solar on January 30, 2013, 08:50:50 PM
Wrong! That's Libertarians.What part about "I have no use for drug users" do you not get?
I didn't say that, but if it impedes your abilities, then they are the same.

I've burned a bowel or two.  Sucked way to much Rum and coke.  All things considered, none of it did me one ounce of good.

Couldnt really care about the legality, I wont be participating anyway.

Title: Re: Yay or nay towards marajiuana?
Post by: Eyesabide on January 30, 2013, 11:00:10 PM
With all the problems that have been proven for tobbacco smoking, why legalize another product that is going to just add to the health care problems we already have to deal with?
Title: Re: Yay or nay towards marajiuana?
Post by: Byteryder on January 30, 2013, 11:27:14 PM
Quote from: Eyesabide on January 30, 2013, 11:00:10 PM
With all the problems that have been proven for tobbacco smoking, why legalize another product that is going to just add to the health care problems we already have to deal with?

Agreed.
Title: Re: Yay or nay towards marajiuana?
Post by: Yawn on January 31, 2013, 02:18:23 AM
Do the drug legalization folks have any idea what's going on in the country?!?!?! The country is on the verge of COLLAPSE and you will NOT have a Constitutional Republic rise out of the ashes. You'll have a DICTATORSHIP!

With all that's taking place, THIS is what occupies their time!  "Useless shreds of human debris"
Title: Re: Yay or nay towards marajiuana?
Post by: The Stranger on January 31, 2013, 03:48:21 AM
IMHO Pot is no more dangerous then Alcohol. So if it has the same usage perimeters as Alcohol oh well.
But I don't think they have a way to check your blood content road side yet so I would say not at this time. I may be wrong on checking blood content and how much makes you incapacitated.
Title: Re: Yay or nay towards marajiuana?
Post by: kramarat on January 31, 2013, 04:59:58 AM
Yes.
Same rules as alcohol, in regard to age and driving.
Employers would retain the right to terminate employees that use it, at their discretion.

It's not so much about drug legalization, as it is that it's unconstitutional. The government has no constitutional authority to stop people from doing things that affect no one but themselves.

It's this same overreach that has led to Michelle Obama's food police, and mayor Bloomberg's Orwellian dictates on everything from transfat, to salt, to soda portions.

We can't call on government to stop people from doing something we disagree with, and be surprised when our turn comes around.

Title: Re: Yay or nay towards marajiuana?
Post by: kramarat on January 31, 2013, 05:17:13 AM
As evidenced here, government is incapable of stopping themselves.............

Prison time for cigarette smokers? :confused: :scared:

http://www.newsmax.com/TheWire/cigarette-prescription-drug-oregon/2013/01/24/id/472773 (http://www.newsmax.com/TheWire/cigarette-prescription-drug-oregon/2013/01/24/id/472773)
Title: Re: Yay or nay towards marajiuana?
Post by: CubaLibre on January 31, 2013, 05:21:10 AM
Quote from: Solar on January 30, 2013, 08:27:41 PM
I have absolutely no use for drug users. But if they want to destroy their own life, and it doesn't effect my life in anyway, have at it as long as they stay inside.
This is how I see it. I would never use marijuana, coke, heroin, etc. and would discourage my friends and family from using them, much as I do with tobacco use.

That said, prohibition has been a dismal failure, IMO...
Title: Re: Yay or nay towards marajiuana?
Post by: Turks on January 31, 2013, 05:25:44 AM
Quote from: kramarat on January 31, 2013, 04:59:58 AM
Yes.
Same rules as alcohol, in regard to age and driving.
Employers would retain the right to terminate employees that use it, at their discretion.

It's not so much about drug legalization, as it is that it's unconstitutional. The government has no constitutional authority to stop people from doing things that affect no one but themselves.

It's this same overreach that has led to Michelle Obama's food police, and mayor Bloomberg's Orwellian dictates on everything from transfat, to salt, to soda portions.

We can't call on government to stop people from doing something we disagree with, and be surprised when our turn comes around.



The thing that always bothered me is the fact that if drug tested one can be fired for smoking on their own time.  Let me explain.  One can smoke pot from Friday evening through Sunday evening then stop.  They go to work Monday morning with no lingering effects yet since it stays in the system for quite awhile a person can be terminated.

Anyone familar with smoking pot knows that if one smoked their last joint let's say at 10:00 PM for arguments sake.  By the time they wake up there's no lingering effects.  With alcohol there's the hangover which coulkd interfere with one's performance...not so with pot.

Just my observation on the matter.  I don't care one way or another if it's legalized.  If one wants it, it's easily available to the let's say "daily user".

Title: Re: Yay or nay towards marajiuana?
Post by: kramarat on January 31, 2013, 05:33:52 AM
Quote from: Turks on January 31, 2013, 05:25:44 AM


The thing that always bothered me is the fact that if drug tested one can be fired for smoking on their own time.  Let me explain.  One can smoke pot from Friday evening through Sunday evening then stop.  They go to work Monday morning with no lingering effects yet since it stays in the system for quite awhile a person can be terminated.

Anyone familar with smoking pot knows that if one smoked their last joint let's say at 10:00 PM for arguments sake.  By the time they wake up there's no lingering effects.  With alcohol there's the hangover which coulkd interfere with one's performance...not so with pot.

Just my observation on the matter.  I don't care one way or another if it's legalized.  If one wants it, it's easily available to the let's say "daily user".

True. It may not seem fair, but the pot smoker is not compelled to work for an employer with a zero tolerance policy. They can work somewhere else.

On the other hand, if we call on government to force employers to keep pot smokers around, again, it is unconstitutional. The government has no constitutional authority to dictate the employment criteria for a private company.
Title: Re: Yay or nay towards marajiuana?
Post by: Balto on January 31, 2013, 05:52:48 AM
Marajiuana does have some medical benefits. It can help take care of symptoms like depressio,  like I have.
Title: Re: Yay or nay towards marajiuana?
Post by: Solar on January 31, 2013, 06:26:56 AM
Why stop there, opium in it's pure form has the same calming effect as weed, you never hear of someone getting violent when he's high, or heroin, same thing, they just zombie out in a dark room?
Sure, what the Hell, lets legalize even more drugs, as long as they stay indoors, what's the harm?

The harm is, they are detrimental to society as a whole, our predecessors knew and made laws against them.
Why is it every generation thinks they're somehow smarter than those that learned the hard way?

Wake up people, this has absolutely nothing to do with Rights or personal Freedoms, and everything to do with destroying the foundation of the country from the inside out.
Title: Re: Yay or nay towards marajiuana?
Post by: kramarat on January 31, 2013, 06:29:41 AM
Quote from: Balto on January 31, 2013, 05:52:48 AM
Marajiuana does have some medical benefits. It can help take care of symptoms like depressio,  like I have.

I go to adult gatherings, (40-50 year olds), where I will drink a couple of whiskey drinks and switch to beer for the rest of the night...........getting a pretty good buzz on. Other people go outside and smoke some pot, because they can't stand the taste or effects of alcohol. I don't have a problem with it.

I can't smoke pot because it makes me instantly stupid and almost falling down. Different strokes for different folks. :wink:
Title: Re: Yay or nay towards marajiuana?
Post by: kramarat on January 31, 2013, 06:37:35 AM
Quote from: Solar on January 31, 2013, 06:26:56 AM
Why stop there, opium in it's pure form has the same calming effect as weed, you never hear of someone getting violent when he's high, or heroin, same thing, they just zombie out in a dark room?
Sure, what the Hell, lets legalize even more drugs, as long as they stay indoors, what's the harm?

The harm is, they are detrimental to society as a whole, our predecessors knew and made laws against them.
Why is it every generation thinks they're somehow smarter than those that learned the hard way?

Wake up people, this has absolutely nothing to do with Rights or personal Freedoms, and everything to do with destroying the foundation of the country from the inside out.
This was a question about only pot. There are drugs that are so detrimental to other people, aside from the user, that they can't be accepted in a functioning society. We'll probably never agree, but I don't consider pot use to be one of them.
Title: Re: Yay or nay towards marajiuana?
Post by: Turks on January 31, 2013, 06:49:17 AM
Quote from: kramarat on January 31, 2013, 05:33:52 AM
True. It may not seem fair, but the pot smoker is not compelled to work for an employer with a zero tolerance policy. They can work somewhere else.

On the other hand, if we call on government to force employers to keep pot smokers around, again, it is unconstitutional. The government has no constitutional authority to dictate the employment criteria for a private company.

There aren't many employers who aren't zero tolerance.  At least none I can name. The "at will" clause in almost all employer's agreements give them the out to fire anyone they please, for any reason.

Title: Re: Yay or nay towards marajiuana?
Post by: kramarat on January 31, 2013, 06:51:39 AM
Quote from: Turks on January 31, 2013, 06:49:17 AM
There aren't many employers who aren't zero tolerance.  At least none I can name. The "at will" clause in almost all employer's agreements give them the out to fire anyone they please, for any reason.

As it should be.
Title: Re: Yay or nay towards marajiuana?
Post by: Solar on January 31, 2013, 06:54:00 AM
Quote from: kramarat on January 31, 2013, 06:37:35 AM
This was a question about only pot. There are drugs that are so detrimental to other people, aside from the user, that they can't be accepted in a functioning society. We'll probably never agree, but I don't consider pot use to be one of them.
Of course it was. This time, but next time it will be another, and another drug after that.
It's always about the repressive man, the man got me down, all I wanna do is get high and not bother anyone.
(and draw food stamps, suck off the productive in the country, get free medical care, where I can get free weed)
Yeah, it is all about Just Weed, but you just keep believing that lie.
Title: Re: Yay or nay towards marajiuana?
Post by: raptor5618 on January 31, 2013, 07:00:51 AM
The real answer is impairment testing which really should be used for alcohol as well.  Setting a number for alcohol is just easy but does not determine the amount of impairment experienced by a person at that level. I knew some people that probably were very impaired on only a little bit of alcohol.   With Pot you could still have levels in your system weeks after smoking it.  Also they do not test for prescription drugs and some of them are far more potent than weed.   

I see no reason why it should not be legal as on any level alcohol is worse.  Neither is very good for your health especially if you abuse it and someone who is smoked up is far less of a hazard to society (others) than those who are drunk.  I never saw someone stumbling around on weed and I do not know of a single person who gets smoked up and goes out looking for a fight.

Lastly, why do we want to waste our resources chasing someone who smokes or sells dope and then putting them in jail.  It really seems like a senseless waste of our tax dollars.  So less waste and probably more revenue seems like it should be enough of a benefit for those on the fence.  I personally prefer that our police are locking up those who present a real danger to the rest of us.
Title: Re: Yay or nay towards marajiuana?
Post by: kramarat on January 31, 2013, 07:06:24 AM
Quote from: Solar on January 31, 2013, 06:54:00 AM
Of course it was. This time, but next time it will be another, and another drug after that.
It's always about the repressive man, the man got me down, all I wanna do is get high and not bother anyone.
(and draw food stamps, suck off the productive in the country, get free medical care, where I can get free weed)
Yeah, it is all about Just Weed, but you just keep believing that lie.

Then, as a society, we have a responsibility to ban alcohol.........another drug.

http://recoveryfirst.org/alcohol-related-injuries-and-deaths-in-the-us.html/ (http://recoveryfirst.org/alcohol-related-injuries-and-deaths-in-the-us.html/)
Title: Re: Yay or nay towards marajiuana?
Post by: JustKari on January 31, 2013, 07:07:40 AM
Quote from: The Stranger on January 31, 2013, 03:48:21 AM
IMHO Pot is no more dangerous then Alcohol. So if it has the same usage perimeters as Alcohol oh well.
But I don't think they have a way to check your blood content road side yet so I would say not at this time. I may be wrong on checking blood content and how much makes you incapacitated.

I would neither vote for legalization or against it.  My only issue is the one posed in this post, like alcohol, they need a test that can deturmine when it was smoked, and level of intoxication.  Also, the issue of it lingering in the blood system, if it was legal, you should not be punished for doing it on your own time.

As a bonus, they would then legalize industrial hemp, which would make getting hemp fabric much easier/cheaper.
Title: Re: Yay or nay towards marajiuana?
Post by: Solar on January 31, 2013, 07:18:14 AM
Quote from: kramarat on January 31, 2013, 07:06:24 AM
Then, as a society, we have a responsibility to ban alcohol.........another drug.

http://recoveryfirst.org/alcohol-related-injuries-and-deaths-in-the-us.html/ (http://recoveryfirst.org/alcohol-related-injuries-and-deaths-in-the-us.html/)
Some actually do, because different races are effected differently.
Personally I don't care, Pandora's box is open, people will either brew or grow their own.
Morality and shame no longer exists, it used to be embarrassing to have an addiction problem.
Now it's cool to get high? But please, ignore our elders warnings, they were just old white guys after all, what in the fuck did they know?
Title: Re: Yay or nay towards marajiuana?
Post by: Turks on January 31, 2013, 07:19:25 AM
Quote from: kramarat on January 31, 2013, 06:51:39 AM
As it should be.

That's a matter of personal preference/perspective.  As someone else posted,  I'm too am as Conservative as one gets on most issues but maybe due to the generation I grew up in, I am not a staunch anti-pot advocate.  In fact, I have no issue with legalizing it.  When it comes to pot..to me..."to each, his own".

Title: Re: Yay or nay towards marajiuana?
Post by: kramarat on January 31, 2013, 07:19:38 AM
Quote from: Solar on January 31, 2013, 06:54:00 AM
Of course it was. This time, but next time it will be another, and another drug after that.
It's always about the repressive man, the man got me down, all I wanna do is get high and not bother anyone.
(and draw food stamps, suck off the productive in the country, get free medical care, where I can get free weed)
Yeah, it is all about Just Weed, but you just keep believing that lie.

I'm probably biased. I don't know anyone that smokes pot and sucks off the productive in the country. They work every day, own homes, raise kids, own businesses............and take a few hits of pot for the same reason that I drink a six pack of beer. It doesn't bug me in the least. I just don't happen to like the way it affects me.
Title: Re: Yay or nay towards marajiuana?
Post by: kramarat on January 31, 2013, 07:23:38 AM
Quote from: Turks on January 31, 2013, 07:19:25 AM
That's a matter of personal preference/perspective.  As someone else posted,  I'm too am as Conservaive as one gets on most issues but maybe due to the generation I grew up in, I am not a staunch anti-pot advocate.  When it comes to pot..to me..."to each, his own".

Me too. It stops at pot though.

I can't get behind the legalization of things like meth or crack. The damage that those drugs cause, (beyond the user), are well documented. Not so with weed.
Title: Re: Yay or nay towards marajiuana?
Post by: raptor5618 on January 31, 2013, 07:24:05 AM
I am way past being a young guy but think that we waste too much time trying to stop behavior that is not going to be stopped by a law. I think the view that some drugs are worse than others is no different than the view of those who want to take away guns.  If all drugs were legal most people still would not take them.  When I was in college there was enough pot around that I could probably smoke some every day on some one else's dime.  I did not like the feeling I got so I did not do it. 

Take a look at what the kids are doing.  These drug laws have no effect other than ruining the lives of some who are just being young and dumb and experimenting. Hell our president admits to some serious drug use.  Not going to say that turned out well but becoming the president even if you are the worst ever is still an accomplishment.

Drug use is not without its problems but saying one is good and the other is not so good sort of provides those who want to take away our liberty an argument that cannot be contested.   

Take a heroin addict and an alcoholic and lock them up where there is no chance of getting their drug of choice.  There is a good chance that the alcoholic will die from withdrawal while the heroin addict will probably wish he died but will not. 

I always had the idea that we should have an area that is fenced in where all vices would be legal.  Go do your drugs,  your prostitution and well gambling is now legal but that was part of the original idea.  To get out you have to prove that you are no longer under the influence of any drug.   You know who is in there and you can control what drugs they get so you do not get a batch of bad stuff that kills off a bunch of people and it is away from the rest of society.   
Title: Re: Yay or nay towards marajiuana?
Post by: Turks on January 31, 2013, 07:24:13 AM
Quote from: kramarat on January 31, 2013, 06:29:41 AM
I go to adult gatherings, (40-50 year olds), where I will drink a couple of whiskey drinks and switch to beer for the rest of the night...........getting a pretty good buzz on. Other people go outside and smoke some pot, because they can't stand the taste or effects of alcohol. I don't have a problem with it.

I can't smoke pot because it makes me instantly stupid and almost falling down. Different strokes for different folks. :wink:


I agree.  I'd rather "blow a joint" (I'm dating myself with that phrase) then sit there drinking liquor.   No hangover and for me and a better overall feeling than one derives from alcohol.

The key is everyone tolerates things differently.  Some can drink but can't smoke.  Some like to smoke but don't like alcohol for whatever reason.
Title: Re: Yay or nay towards marajiuana?
Post by: Turks on January 31, 2013, 07:30:11 AM
Quote from: raptor5618 on January 31, 2013, 07:24:05 AM
I am way past being a young guy but think that we waste too much time trying to stop behavior that is not going to be stopped by a law. I think the view that some drugs are worse than others is no different than the view of those who want to take away guns.   If all drugs were legal most people still would not take them.  When I was in college there was enough pot around that I could probably smoke some every day on some one else's dime.  I did not like the feeling I got so I did not do it. 

Take a look at what the kids are doing.  These drug laws have no effect other than ruining the lives of some who are just being young and dumb and experimenting. Hell our president admits to some serious drug use.  Not going to say that turned out well but becoming the president even if you are the worst ever is still an accomplishment.

Drug use is not without its problems but saying one is good and the other is not so good sort of provides those who want to take away our liberty an argument that cannot be contested.   

Take a heroin addict and an alcoholic and lock them up where there is no chance of getting their drug of choice.  There is a good chance that the alcoholic will die from withdrawal while the heroin addict will probably wish he died but will not. 

I always had the idea that we should have an area that is fenced in where all vices would be legal.  Go do your drugs,  your prostitution and well gambling is now legal but that was part of the original idea.  To get out you have to prove that you are no longer under the influence of any drug.   You know who is in there and you can control what drugs they get so you do not get a batch of bad stuff that kills off a bunch of people and it is away from the rest of society.

Just to address that one point.  I'd agree.  Have  more than a couple of beers sounds to some as if it's not so bad.  To say you drank a bottle of Scotch or whatever, eyebrows get raised.

Everything is relative.
Title: Re: Yay or nay towards marajiuana?
Post by: Turks on January 31, 2013, 07:33:30 AM
Quote from: kramarat on January 31, 2013, 07:23:38 AM
Me too. It stops at pot though.

I can't get behind the legalization of things like meth or crack. The damage that those drugs cause, (beyond the user), are well documented. Not so with weed.

Again I would agree.  I also listen to people who say pot leads to harder drugs. All I can and will say is after 40 or so years, I have never had the desire to try anything else and I wouldn't call myself a "stoner" but I'm a bit more than just the twice a month smoker.

Again...everyone is different and everyone's tolerance level is different.
Title: Re: Yay or nay towards marajiuana?
Post by: Solar on January 31, 2013, 07:42:02 AM
Folks, it's about the tolerance level of society, it shifts with each generation.
Next generation will be demanding opium, heroin, neither of which have ill side effects, much the same as weed. However, there is a reason societies previous to ours outlawed them, they were a detriment to a functioning society.

It's a slippery slope folks, think about the next generation, much like our debt, what we do today, affects their tomorrow.

I know, why don't we do away with all drug laws, after all, it is about freedom, right?
Title: Re: Yay or nay towards marajiuana?
Post by: kramarat on January 31, 2013, 07:45:18 AM
Quote from: Solar on January 31, 2013, 07:18:14 AM
Some actually do, because different races are effected differently.
Personally I don't care, Pandora's box is open, people will either brew or grow their own.
Morality and shame no longer exists, it used to be embarrassing to have an addiction problem.
Now it's cool to get high? But please, ignore our elders warnings, they were just old white guys after all, what in the fuck did they know?

C'mon Solar, nobody's talking about addiction.

The elders?

You mean the old white guys that used to come home after work and suck down a couple of martinis or scotch and waters and a half pack of smokes before dinner?

Getting high has always been glamorized.

(https://conservativepoliticalforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi38.tinypic.com%2F25ov1q8.jpg&hash=5256f040f1f9835f0d2551259477704fa527cf3d)
Title: Re: Yay or nay towards marajiuana?
Post by: Turks on January 31, 2013, 07:47:45 AM
This is what former generations thought about pot.  Didn't exactly  turn out to be very accurate.

Reefer Madness Trailer Great marijuana movie (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L1jB7RBGVGk#)
Title: Re: Yay or nay towards marajiuana?
Post by: raptor5618 on January 31, 2013, 08:02:05 AM
I think the reality is that a person who frequently uses drugs including alcohol is not going to be as productive as someone who does not.  I oversaw the drug program for a moderately sized company and they all have a slippery slope.  Some drugs will put you into that downward spiral much quicker with more certainty than others so some of the stronger ones do have an almost guaranteed bad outcome. 

As an aside to this discussion is the other class of drugs that our govt also restricts.  I think that it is outrageous that a person dying of some disease is not able to take some experimental drug until the govt says that they can.  Yes I kind of lean toward a libertarian view which I believe does align with how our founders viewed things.  I think the govt really needs to stay out of our personal lives except for those cases where our actions will harm others.  Now we often hear about how this or that actually harms others by using some wild stretch of the imagination but I think it has to actually be a direct threat to others.  I believe part of the justification for obamacare was that the uninsured harmed us all. 

Title: Re: Yay or nay towards marajiuana?
Post by: kramarat on January 31, 2013, 08:03:02 AM
Quote from: Turks on January 31, 2013, 07:47:45 AM
This is what former generations thought about pot.  Didn't exactly  turn out to be very accurate.

Reefer Madness Trailer Great marijuana movie (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L1jB7RBGVGk#)

We should either agree that the government should be in charge of everything we do, based on a government determined social morality, or none of it.

(https://conservativepoliticalforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.legendsofamerica.com%2Fphotos-americanhistory%2FProhibitionPoster.jpg&hash=a91df1e89eff18bf326692dae65980261889009e)

(https://conservativepoliticalforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.sangrea.net%2Ffree-cartoons%2Fpolit_prohibition.jpg&hash=a8384e43c7353afbb0b185e6f21e3704a54fa67f)

(https://conservativepoliticalforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.getmadd.com%2Fimages%2Fprohibition-puzzleLG.jpg&hash=f1999f4904a5683ed47af8f4eb95a7383ff46f70)
Title: Re: Yay or nay towards marajiuana?
Post by: Solar on January 31, 2013, 08:04:13 AM
Hey, I was young once, even pushed a petition drive to legalize weed here in Ca decades ago.
But as I said, I was young, which equates to ignorant dumb ass.

So I ask again, why stop at weed, why not do away with all drug laws, that is, if it'd really about rights and freedoms?
Come on, someone give me a good argument as to why we shouldn't, and don't give me that crap about other drugs are dangerous, because inhibiting reality is what they all have in common, some to a lesser degree, but ALL inhibit reality!

If drugs impairing ones ability to deal with reality, then why stop at weed?
Title: Re: Yay or nay towards marajiuana?
Post by: Turks on January 31, 2013, 08:19:54 AM
Quote from: Solar on January 31, 2013, 08:04:13 AM
Hey, I was young once, even pushed a petition drive to legalize weed here in Ca decades ago.
But as I said, I was young, which equates to ignorant dumb ass.

So I ask again, why stop at weed, why not do away with all drug laws, that is, if it'd really about rights and freedoms?
Come on, someone give me a good argument as to why we shouldn't, and don't give me that crap about other drugs are dangerous, because inhibiting reality is what they all have in common, some to a lesser degree, but ALL inhibit reality!

If drugs impairing ones ability to deal with reality, then why stop at weed?


I don't know if there is answer to give you.  This is the same debate as gun control.  Why stop at guns?  Knives kill, baseball bats kill, cars kill.

Society evolves or some might say devolves.  Attitudes change and people's tolerances change.   More people are accepting of legalized pot.  I'm not saying that's a reason to legalize it but it might slightly address what you asked and why it seems states are dropping their objections to it.

I can only relate personal experience and for me personally, I don't have any issue if it was legalized tomorrow.  But again, that doesn't make me right or wrong.
Title: Re: Yay or nay towards marajiuana?
Post by: raptor5618 on January 31, 2013, 08:20:33 AM
I know you are thinking I am a dumb ass but I think your statement is correct.  Here is why.  I think those who think government is the answer to all our problems use the same argument.  There is a bad outcome be it drug abuse or gun violence.  Neither would be possible if there were no drugs or no guns.  Therefore to eliminate the possibility of the bad outcome ban drugs and guns.  I think that in the case of drugs or guns it kind of is one or the other but always gets watered down to some are good and some are bad.  In both cases where a drug or gun ends up in terms of it being good or bad is subjective and the rationale is often flawed.  It also ignores that often the bad outcome is not a certainty and often time does not happen at all.  Lots of people have guns and do not use them against another human and I know lots of people who are in all kinds of prestigious positions that used drugs at some time in their life including our dear president.  Actually the last three probably.

If it were possible I would wish that there could be an intelligent conversation about a lot of our laws and what ones serve the purpose of protecting society and which ones only serve to limit our freedom.

Title: Re: Yay or nay towards marajiuana?
Post by: Balto on January 31, 2013, 08:21:46 AM
Quote from: Solar on January 31, 2013, 08:04:13 AM
Hey, I was young once, even pushed a petition drive to legalize weed here in Ca decades ago.
But as I said, I was young, which equates to ignorant dumb ass.

So I ask again, why stop at weed, why not do away with all drug laws, that is, if it'd really about rights and freedoms?
Come on, someone give me a good argument as to why we shouldn't, and don't give me that crap about other drugs are dangerous, because inhibiting reality is what they all have in common, some to a lesser degree, but ALL inhibit reality!

If drugs impairing ones ability to deal with reality, then why stop at weed?
I'm starting to think I might be the youngest member here lol.

Heroin and meth, depending on how its used, can be a perscription for suicide. I personally believe someone should be able to have a greenhouse, maybe not filled but somewhat full with plants and not have handcuffs put on for it. Why not just arrest someone for growing tropical plants in their greenhouse? Solar, if we legalize many of the hardcore drugs like heroin, crack and meth it will do more bad than good healthwise.
Title: Re: Yay or nay towards marajiuana?
Post by: Turks on January 31, 2013, 08:29:46 AM
Quote from: Balto on January 31, 2013, 08:21:46 AM
I'm starting to think I might be the youngest member here lol.

Heroin and meth, depending on how its used, can be a perscription for suicide. I personally believe someone should be able to have a greenhouse, maybe not filled but somewhat full with plants and not have handcuffs put on for it. Why not just arrest someone for growing tropical plants in their greenhouse? Solar, if we legalize many of the hardcore drugs like heroin, crack and meth it will do more bad than good healthwise.

You may have raised a good point to answer Solar.  The effects of pot don't seeem to be as detrimental as the other drugs mentioned.  And as someone pointed out, it actually has medicinal value.  Then again one can say the same for morphine.  Which raise the question should it be legalized for medicinal value or recreational value...and I just don't have that answer.


I'm not looking at it from a personal right's perspective but more from a "how harmeful of a drug is it to society as a whole".
Title: Re: Yay or nay towards marajiuana?
Post by: Solar on January 31, 2013, 08:41:56 AM
I think you all know what I'm getting at, our society is a reflection of it's morals, and sadly, the more we tolerate bad behavior, the further we slide into being a non productive society.
Sure, it's only weed, it's harmless right? Wrong, I have known and still know people that simply can't function unless they're high, and they all have something in common, they are simply stupid, they've ruined the cognitive part of their brains.

Point is, society learned long ago all drugs come with varying degrees of problems effecting society at large, rather than laws, they used shame to deter it's use, but shame is no longer allowed in this Nation, in fact, if you shame someone, it's seen as rude and no PC, even regarded as hate speech.

People, do you not see where our society is headed? But it's just weed you say?
Sometimes you just have to say no to children, even if it makes you look like the bad guy, and personally I never did give a damn of what people thought of me because I stood my ground based on morals, and I stand here and you all know I'm right in wanting to draw the line stopping the slippery slope.
Title: Re: Yay or nay towards marajiuana?
Post by: Turks on January 31, 2013, 08:52:25 AM
I don't want to get into a heated battle over this since I tend to agree with you 99% of the time.  But I think you're being presumptuous to say your morals are right and everyone else's are wrong.  You frame it in the context of society as a whole rather than on the merits or lack of merit of pot itself.

Please don't get insulted but your last reply demonstrates why people are intolerant of the GOP.  You pretty much say that you're right and there is no leeway and that's the end of the story.  You may not have used those exact words but that's how it reads.

The thing to remember is that it may be the end of the story for you and that's not saying you're wrong but the nation at large doesn't seem to see it your way hence we have state after state legalizing for medicinal purposes and in time it will be for recreational as well since that's what the populace seems to want.

You're insisting you're right but others may not see quite that way. It's just my opinion but legalizing it isn't going to detour the path this nation is already on. 

Title: Re: Yay or nay towards marajiuana?
Post by: Solar on January 31, 2013, 08:59:11 AM
Quote from: Turks on January 31, 2013, 08:52:25 AM
I don't wnat to get into a heated battle over this since I tend to agree with you 99% of the time.  But I think you're being presumptuous to say your morals are right and everyone else's are wrong.  You frame it in the context of society as a whole rather than on the merits or lack of merit of pot itself.

Please don't get insulted but your last reply demonstrates why people are intolerant of the GOP.  You pretty much say that you're right and there is no leeway and that's the end of the story.  You may not have used those exact words but that's how it reads.

The thing to remember is that it may be the end of the story foir you and that's not saying you're wrong but the nation at large doesn't seem to see it your way hence we have state after state llegalizing for medicinal purposes and in time it will be for recreational as well since that's what the populace seems to want.

You're insisting you're right but others may not see quite that way.
This whole issue is a perfect example of moral relativism. It's also why we are not a Democracy.
But I'll leave it at that, I had hoped people were smart enough to leave well enough alone, but caving in because the squeaky wheel of of kids demanding change without a clue of consequence would be enough to take pause and ask why have societies looked down on drugs in the past.

Let the chips land where they may, who knows, maybe weed will make for a more productive society? :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Yay or nay towards marajiuana?
Post by: Turks on January 31, 2013, 09:04:41 AM
Quote from: Solar on January 31, 2013, 08:59:11 AM
This whole issue is a perfect example of moral relativism. It's also why we are not a Democracy.
But I'll leave it at that, I had hoped people were smart enough to leave well enough alone, but caving in because the squeaky wheel of of kids demanding change without a clue of consequence would be enough to take pause and ask why have societies looked down on drugs in the past.

Let the chips land where they may, who knows, maybe weed will make for a more productive society? :rolleyes:

Just one last point.  Is it kids or is it those that are  products of the 60s which are far from from kids?  I say it's likely both.  But you're right.  It's best left where it is.
Title: Re: Yay or nay towards marajiuana?
Post by: Solar on January 31, 2013, 09:06:45 AM
Quote from: Turks on January 31, 2013, 09:04:41 AM
Just one last point.  Is it kids or is it those that are  products of the 60s which are frpom from kids?  I say it's likely both.  But you're right.  It's best left where it is.
I agree, it's both. It's just not change for the betterment of the country is all.
Title: Re: Yay or nay towards marajiuana?
Post by: raptor5618 on January 31, 2013, 09:18:05 AM
Solar maybe it would be for the benefit of this country.  Every Friday and Saturday night our police utilize substantial resources to set up road blocks in hopes of arresting people who are over some arbitrary number in terms of alcohol.  They keep dropping the number so now some, perhaps many are less impaired than others who just worked a long shift or had a fight with their sig other or a whole host of things.  It is really a money making thing so I just wish that they made everyone pay a buck when they leave a bar and be done with it. 

So much police time and effort not to mention our courts and jails for something that does less harm to our productivity than the punishment and enforcement of those laws exerts. 

I do not understand your relative morality point as I am having a problem understanding how morality is even a factor if someone smokes some dope or not.  I see it more as a freedom and liberty issue than a moral issue.  Not being critical of your view as to morality, I just do not understand your basis for considering it a morality issue.
Title: Re: Yay or nay towards marajiuana?
Post by: Solar on January 31, 2013, 09:22:06 AM
Quote from: raptor5618 on January 31, 2013, 09:18:05 AM
Solar maybe it would be for the benefit of this country.  Every Friday and Saturday night our police utilize substantial resources to set up road blocks in hopes of arresting people who are over some arbitrary number in terms of alcohol.  They keep dropping the number so now some, perhaps many are less impaired than others who just worked a long shift or had a fight with their sig other or a whole host of things.  It is really a money making thing so I just wish that they made everyone pay a buck when they leave a bar and be done with it. 

So much police time and effort not to mention our courts and jails for something that does less harm to our productivity than the punishment and enforcement of those laws exerts. 

I do not understand your relative morality point as I am having a problem understanding how morality is even a factor if someone smokes some dope or not.  I see it more as a freedom and liberty issue than a moral issue.  Not being critical of your view as to morality, I just do not understand your basis for considering it a morality issue.
I'm just saying it's a slippery slope.
Look up moral relativism, it's what got us into this mess were in today.
Title: Re: Yay or nay towards marajiuana?
Post by: Turks on January 31, 2013, 09:28:54 AM
Quote from: raptor5618 on January 31, 2013, 09:18:05 AM
Solar maybe it would be for the benefit of this country.  Every Friday and Saturday night our police utilize substantial resources to set up road blocks in hopes of arresting people who are over some arbitrary number in terms of alcohol.  They keep dropping the number so now some, perhaps many are less impaired than others who just worked a long shift or had a fight with their sig other or a whole host of things.  It is really a money making thing so I just wish that they made everyone pay a buck when they leave a bar and be done with it. 

So much police time and effort not to mention our courts and jails for something that does less harm to our productivity than the punishment and enforcement of those laws exerts. 

I do not understand your relative morality point as I am having a problem understanding how morality is even a factor if someone smokes some dope or not.  I see it more as a freedom and liberty issue than a moral issue.  Not being critical of your view as to morality, I just do not understand your basis for considering it a morality issue.



I understand Solar's point on morality but I'd just add if we're going to look at it from the perspective of a moral issue there are far worse things lowering our morality than pot.  Just turn on a televison or play a video game.  I'd also offer that many of those that want it legalized are very moral, hard working individuals...not the basement dwelling stoner type.    They just like to relax at the end of the day with a joint as opposed to a beer, a shot, or a glass of wine.


Take this scenario.  You're home enjoying a joint.  No intentions of going out.  A police officer knocks at your door to tell you that your car's alarm is ringing or that someone just side-swipped your car down the street.  Unkown to you, your wife answers the door.  The cop smells pot.  You're screwed.  He can now enter and rest assured you're going to the slammer...at least here in NJ.

Maybe one solution should be it's legal in the confines of one's home.
Title: Re: Yay or nay towards marajiuana?
Post by: mdgiles on January 31, 2013, 09:35:20 AM
With the exception of testing for purity, safety and side effects, I would get government totally out of the drug business.  And should also point out two things. One is that millions of people use drugs, but only a certain percentage ever become addicted to them. The other is that many of the bad effects people associate with drug use, arise from their prohibition, not the drugs themselves. During Prohibition people were dying from bad liquor and gangsters were holding gun battles in the streets with automatic weapons to control the trade. Mass produced beer sucks, but no one has died from it recently. And Budweiser and Miller confine their competition to the advertising arena.
Title: Re: Yay or nay towards marajiuana?
Post by: Turks on January 31, 2013, 09:39:50 AM
http://prescription-drug.addictionblog.org/snorting-ambien/ (http://prescription-drug.addictionblog.org/snorting-ambien/)


Q: What happens when you snort Ambien?
A: When you snort ambien you fell a quick (mild) high. The rush will make you dizzy and will impair your vision and judgment. It's easiest to crush the pill down into 2 or 3 lines and snort them a few minutes apart. This eases you into the high.

To be honest, it's not the most pleasant buzz, you spend most of your time wishing you could see straight. Also when the buzz wears off after about 30 minutes or so, you tend to feel a little low, and wanna sleep.



Think about how many American have or can easily get access to this.
Title: Re: Yay or nay towards marajiuana?
Post by: kramarat on January 31, 2013, 09:52:20 AM
Quote from: Solar on January 31, 2013, 08:04:13 AM
Hey, I was young once, even pushed a petition drive to legalize weed here in Ca decades ago.
But as I said, I was young, which equates to ignorant dumb ass.

So I ask again, why stop at weed, why not do away with all drug laws, that is, if it'd really about rights and freedoms?
Come on, someone give me a good argument as to why we shouldn't, and don't give me that crap about other drugs are dangerous, because inhibiting reality is what they all have in common, some to a lesser degree, but ALL inhibit reality!

If drugs impairing ones ability to deal with reality, then why stop at weed?

When you were a young, ignorant dumb ass, were you scared of marijuana laws?

Did you stop because of the laws or did you stop because you just outgrew it?
Title: Re: Yay or nay towards marajiuana?
Post by: Solar on January 31, 2013, 10:22:49 AM
Quote from: kramarat on January 31, 2013, 09:52:20 AM
When you were a young, ignorant dumb ass, were you scared of marijuana laws?

Did you stop because of the laws or did you stop because you just outgrew it?
I found it to be nonproductive, and hindrance if you will.
And yes, laws played a huge part of it when I saw the trouble it caused in my friends lives in pursuing a career.
They all got busted, one lost a good job over it, another was relegated to middle management, and one other got fired just because he couldn't concentrate at work, he quit using and went on to do well in life though.

I see it as a generational thing, my generation pushed for it, then saw the truth.
The next generation tried again, and now this one. Nothing ever changes except perception, and the perception is it's relatively harmless, when in truth, we really don't know, we can only rely on the wisdom of those that experienced the problem and banned drugs.
But one thing history proves time and time again, is that we never learn from history and repeat the mistakes of the past.
Wrong or right, we will have to learn for ourselves.
Title: Re: Yay or nay towards marajiuana?
Post by: kramarat on January 31, 2013, 11:00:31 AM
Quote from: Solar on January 31, 2013, 10:22:49 AM
I found it to be nonproductive, and hindrance if you will.
And yes, laws played a huge part of it when I saw the trouble it caused in my friends lives in pursuing a career.
They all got busted, one lost a good job over it, another was relegated to middle management, and one other got fired just because he couldn't concentrate at work, he quit using and went on to do well in life though.

I see it as a generational thing, my generation pushed for it, then saw the truth.
The next generation tried again, and now this one. Nothing ever changes except perception, and the perception is it's relatively harmless, when in truth, we really don't know, we can only rely on the wisdom of those that experienced the problem and banned drugs.
But one thing history proves time and time again, is that we never learn from history and repeat the mistakes of the past.
Wrong or right, we will have to learn for ourselves.

My take on the whole thing has nothing to do with drugs, but with the freedom of the individual and the constitutional role of government.
I guess it's a libertarian stance, but look at what the left has been able to achieve through nanny state laws.

Not wearing a motorcycle helmet has been criminalized....
Seat belts
Smoking cigarettes
Bloomberg and the food laws
Rules for school lunches
Bicycle helmets
Bullying
Hate speach

Millions of laws:
http://theeconomiccollapseblog.com/archives/18-examples-of-the-nanny-state-gone-wild (http://theeconomiccollapseblog.com/archives/18-examples-of-the-nanny-state-gone-wild)

I'm more concerned with removing control from government, than I am with busting people for smoking pot, because I don't happen to like it.
Title: Re: Yay or nay towards marajiuana?
Post by: Solar on January 31, 2013, 12:02:27 PM
Quote from: kramarat on January 31, 2013, 11:00:31 AM
My take on the whole thing has nothing to do with drugs, but with the freedom of the individual and the constitutional role of government.
I guess it's a libertarian stance, but look at what the left has been able to achieve through nanny state laws.

Not wearing a motorcycle helmet has been criminalized....
Seat belts
Smoking cigarettes
Bloomberg and the food laws
Rules for school lunches
Bicycle helmets
Bullying
Hate speach

Millions of laws:
http://theeconomiccollapseblog.com/archives/18-examples-of-the-nanny-state-gone-wild (http://theeconomiccollapseblog.com/archives/18-examples-of-the-nanny-state-gone-wild)

I'm more concerned with removing control from government, than I am with busting people for smoking pot, because I don't happen to like it.
Yes, Govt is extremely hypocritical, cigarettes bad, weed good.
Yet we still have laws re: morality eg. naked in public, etc, and I suspect those will follow suit (no pun intended) as in the Bay area, where they had to write a law telling the naked that ride public transit need to sit on a towel.

I'm just saying we don't need to cave every time someone claims it's a Rights issue.
Title: Re: Yay or nay towards marajiuana?
Post by: kramarat on January 31, 2013, 12:11:07 PM
Quote from: Solar on January 31, 2013, 12:02:27 PM
Yes, Govt is extremely hypocritical, cigarettes bad, weed good.
Yet we still have laws re: morality eg. naked in public, etc, and I suspect those will follow suit (no pun intended) as in the Bay area, where they had to write a law telling the naked that ride public transit need to sit on a towel.

I'm just saying we don't need to cave every time someone claims it's a Rights issue.

True. While at the same time recognizing that the government doesn't have rights.

I'll settle for letting it be up to the states, and decided by popular vote.
Title: Re: Yay or nay towards marajiuana?
Post by: Balto on January 31, 2013, 01:53:16 PM
Quote from: Solar on January 31, 2013, 12:02:27 PM
Yes, Govt is extremely hypocritical, cigarettes bad, weed good.
Yet we still have laws re: morality eg. naked in public, etc, and I suspect those will follow suit (no pun intended) as in the Bay area, where they had to write a law telling the naked that ride public transit need to sit on a towel.

I'm just saying we don't need to cave every time someone claims it's a Rights issue.
As long as the libs are in power, they are going to cave in and try to takeover everything they can.
Title: Re: Yay or nay towards marajiuana?
Post by: kramarat on January 31, 2013, 02:05:10 PM
Quote from: Balto on January 31, 2013, 01:53:16 PM
As long as the libs are in power, they are going to cave in and try to takeover everything they can.

Obama, (stoner, coke freak in chief), is against legalization. Of course, he's against anything that removes control from government.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/ondcp/ondcp-fact-sheets/marijuana-legalization (http://www.whitehouse.gov/ondcp/ondcp-fact-sheets/marijuana-legalization)
Title: Re: Yay or nay towards marajiuana?
Post by: Murph on January 31, 2013, 02:33:08 PM
Cannabis is bad. Anyone who denies it is probaly smoking it. I say do a Chicago style cannabis control law; only on your own property, locked in a safe when not in use, and no one under 18 shares the home. If you wanna screw yourself I can warn against it, but not stop it.  :popcorn:
Title: Re: Yay or nay towards marajiuana?
Post by: BILLY Defiant on January 31, 2013, 03:21:30 PM
Quote from: Balto on January 30, 2013, 08:04:32 PM
I'll come out and say it. I supported legalization of pot (or Amendment 64)) in Colorado. But mainly because I believe pot can only be as if not as less harmful as alcohol. But I have a feeling before joints come like beer mugs, a lot of people will try doing what happened for alcohol: ban it.

Yay or nay?


Bully for you.

This is why we have a drug problem stemming from a devloping drug culture over the last 50 years, in this country.

This is why we drug our youth to control their behavior and frankly this is why they can't handle it, go beserk and pick up a gun and start mowing others down.

This is why adults develop a dependency on all sorts of harmful substances and set a bad example for their children to follow and perpetuate to the detriment of our society.

Congrads on your victory and guarenteeing employment for Mexican drug cartels and Columbian rebels.

Billy
Title: Re: Yay or nay towards marajiuana?
Post by: kramarat on January 31, 2013, 03:51:50 PM
Quote from: BILLY Defiant on January 31, 2013, 03:21:30 PM

Bully for you.

This is why we have a drug problem stemming from a devloping drug culture over the last 50 years, in this country.

This is why we drug our youth to control their behavior and frankly this is why they can't handle it, go beserk and pick up a gun and start mowing others down.

This is why adults develop a dependency on all sorts of harmful substances and set a bad example for their children to follow and perpetuate to the detriment of our society.

Congrads on your victory and guarenteeing employment for Mexican drug cartels and Columbian rebels.

Billy

That's a lot of connecting the wrong dots Billy.

We are intentionally drugging our youth with legal, prescription drugs. It's what all of these crazed shooters have in common.

The drug cartels do not have carte blanch in Colorado, nor should they. They are murderous gangsters.

If an adult wants to smoke a joint to relax, rather than consuming alcohol, I, for one, don't consider them to be a criminal.

The only reason that pot is still illegal, is that everyone will grow their own few plants for personal consumption, and there is no way to tax it. The entire profit motive will be eliminated.

The current law is in place to keep the government machine running. A machine in which most in law enforcement already ignore pot use.
Title: Re: Yay or nay towards marajiuana?
Post by: BILLY Defiant on January 31, 2013, 03:58:36 PM
Quote from: kramarat on January 31, 2013, 03:51:50 PM
That's a lot of connecting the wrong dots Billy.

We are intentionally drugging our youth with legal, prescription drugs. It's what all of these crazed shooters have in common.

The drug cartels do not have carte blanch in Colorado, nor should they. They are murderous gangsters.

If an adult wants to smoke a joint to relax, rather than consuming alcohol, I, for one, don't consider them to be a criminal.

The only reason that pot is still illegal, is that everyone will grow their own few plants for personal consumption, and there is no way to tax it. The entire profit motive will be eliminated.

The current law is in place to keep the government machine running. A machine in which most in law enforcement already ignore pot use.


Sorry you missed the point.

Perpetuating the drug culture is not a good idea, no matter what drug we are perpetuating.

The results are and will be Disasterous.


Billy
Title: Re: Yay or nay towards marajiuana?
Post by: kramarat on January 31, 2013, 04:52:58 PM
Quote from: BILLY Defiant on January 31, 2013, 03:58:36 PM

Sorry you missed the point.

Perpetuating the drug culture is not a good idea, no matter what drug we are perpetuating.

The results are and will be Disasterous.


Billy

The illegalization of drugs, and subsequent war on drugs have been a dismal failure. It hasn't stopped the flow or use of drugs in any meaningful way, and yet, we have spent trillions on the effort.

We also have an administration in place that:

1) Refuses to secure the border.
2) Got caught arming the drug cartels.
3) Used EP to stop questions.
4) Granted blanket amnesty by EO.
5) Sued the state of Arizona for enforcing federal law.

A criminal enterprise has taken our government; I just don't have time to be concerned with a US citizen smoking a joint. It's not a priority.

If states are willing to openly disobey the federal government, I don't care if it's pot laws, turning down Obamacare, or refusing federal gun law mandates, it's a step in the right direction.
Title: Re: Yay or nay towards marajiuana?
Post by: Turks on February 01, 2013, 03:10:08 AM
Poll: Feds should butt out of states that legalize pot

"But the poll also showed that attitudes about legalizing pot for recreational use are almost evenly split, with 49 percent opposed and 47 percent in favor, which is with in the poll's plus-or-minus 3.8 percent margin of error.

All age groups under 64 are in favor of legalization, with those 64 and older opposing it by a 54 to 41-percent margin."






Read more: http://dailycaller.com/2013/01/31/poll-feds-should-butt-out-of-states-that-legalize-pot/#ixzz2Je1xui9j (http://dailycaller.com/2013/01/31/poll-feds-should-butt-out-of-states-that-legalize-pot/#ixzz2Je1xui9j)
Title: Re: Yay or nay towards marajiuana?
Post by: Solar on February 01, 2013, 05:36:01 AM
Quote from: Turks on February 01, 2013, 03:10:08 AM
Poll: Feds should butt out of states that legalize pot

"But the poll also showed that attitudes about legalizing pot for recreational use are almost evenly split, with 49 percent opposed and 47 percent in favor, which is with in the poll's plus-or-minus 3.8 percent margin of error.

All age groups under 64 are in favor of legalization, with those 64 and older opposing it by a 54 to 41-percent margin."






Read more: http://dailycaller.com/2013/01/31/poll-feds-should-butt-out-of-states-that-legalize-pot/#ixzz2Je1xui9j (http://dailycaller.com/2013/01/31/poll-feds-should-butt-out-of-states-that-legalize-pot/#ixzz2Je1xui9j)
With age, comes wisdom. :laugh:
Title: Re: Yay or nay towards marajiuana?
Post by: raptor5618 on February 01, 2013, 06:12:23 AM
I am not so sure that is a wisdom thing as a throwback to attitudes that persist from when they were young.  My father viewed smoking pot with the same amount of disdain as someone who raped children. There was no maybe it is OK in his view.  Attitudes at that time also ramped up because racial tolerance was not what it is today so this drug also was viewed as coming from the minority community just like the music which he did not like and was disgusted by the Beatles. 

Drugs of some kind has been a part of all cultures through out time and it is nothing new to our society or country.  Watched a documentary last night on Pearl Harbor and the president had a head cold so to clear his sinuses the doctor swabbed his nasal passages with cocaine.  The 20s I think are characterized by what society evolved to all related to alcohol. 

One other issue that this thread has made me consider is how criminalizing drugs keeps them in the dark and so the history of its use kind of gets lost.   Perhaps 15 years ago Cocaine came storming back as the perfect recreational drug.  It only last for a relatively short time and at the time it was believed to have no real bad side affects.  Well it got popular and as it did the down side started showing its head.  People who used it, often maintained a normal life for a while but at some point in their usage they drop off the edge. It did not seem to be gradual either.  One day they were the person you knew and the next day they were off in wacky land.  Most were able to come back but I know a few whose mind is gone forever as well as what ever personal life and family they had before they fell off the cliff.  I am sure that if knowledge of prior users was available it might have been viewed with more caution. 

More recently, the kids who are around the age of my kids 20-30 are far more likely to dabble with heroin than people my age who saw its effects during the 60's.  I guess part of the current allure is that you can now get it at a potency that is strong enough that you do not have to inject it but the risk of addiction should be well known.  Sadly, its use was widespread and my kids have seen more people in their graduating class put into their graves than I have and my graduating class was larger than theirs.   To this day, you can tell when an especially strong batch of heroin makes it to the area because the newspapers will have a higher number of notices for young people who died suddenly at home. 

I do not think that we are becoming a more drug dependent society, the drugs might be different but even as you go back through time you can see that drugs always were present.  Wasn't it kind of a stereotype that the good housewife would greet her husband with a cocktail  to help him unwind from a hard days work in the 40's or 50's.
Title: Re: Yay or nay towards marajiuana?
Post by: Solar on February 01, 2013, 06:22:47 AM
Quote from: raptor5618 on February 01, 2013, 06:12:23 AM
I am not so sure that is a wisdom thing as a throwback to attitudes that persist from when they were young.  My father viewed smoking pot with the same amount of disdain as someone who raped children.
Probably because he saw the damage drugs do to society, much in the same way rape affects families.

Ever lived with a druggie, an alcoholic, ever seen one die from addiction? I bet he has, which is why I say wisdom, kids have yet to see first hand the damage drugs inflict on society, much the same way cancer effects the body.

Let's look a Colorado in a few years and see just how well things are going.
Title: Re: Yay or nay towards marajiuana?
Post by: kramarat on February 01, 2013, 06:25:50 AM
I can't help but wonder if full decriminalization, followed by ad campaigns in which drug users are depicted as losers, wouldn't be a better approach.

As a conservative, I'll always prefer that citizens be armed with information, and be able to make their own choices, (good or bad), rather than being dictated to by government.

Something to think about:

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2010/12/26/portugals-drug-policy-pays-eyes-lessons/ (http://www.foxnews.com/world/2010/12/26/portugals-drug-policy-pays-eyes-lessons/)
Title: Re: Yay or nay towards marajiuana?
Post by: Solar on February 01, 2013, 06:40:57 AM
Quote from: kramarat on February 01, 2013, 06:25:50 AM
I can't help but wonder if full decriminalization, followed by ad campaigns in which drug users are depicted as losers, wouldn't be a better approach.

As a conservative, I'll always prefer that citizens be armed with information, and be able to make their own choices, (good or bad), rather than being dictated to by government.

Something to think about:

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2010/12/26/portugals-drug-policy-pays-eyes-lessons/ (http://www.foxnews.com/world/2010/12/26/portugals-drug-policy-pays-eyes-lessons/)
You know, that's a damn good idea. They could depict several friends in their early 20s hanging out taking a hit off a joint, a couple suggest they go to the movies, one of them say's no man, lets just hang out and Par-taaay, the others get in a nice little car and head to the cinema, the partier gets on his bike and goes home, the camera pans around a modest home, then follows the kid to the basement full of crap where he proceeds to roll another, which happens to be his mom and dads house.
Then fast forward a decade or so and there the partyer sits surrounded by crap and his bike with a flat tire, while the camera shows his friends with nice homes and loving families around them.

I say this because it's what happened in my circle of friends, and believe it or not, Jimmy is still in the same bedroom he was when we were 7, still getting high and perpetually broke from DUIs.
Title: Re: Yay or nay towards marajiuana?
Post by: Balto on February 01, 2013, 07:26:37 AM
Quote from: Solar on February 01, 2013, 06:40:57 AM
You know, that's a damn good idea. They could depict several friends in their early 20s hanging out taking a hit off a joint, a couple suggest they go to the movies, one of them say's no man, lets just hang out and Par-taaay, the others get in a nice little car and head to the cinema, the partier gets on his bike and goes home, the camera pans around a modest home, then follows the kid to the basement full of crap where he proceeds to roll another, which happens to be his mom and dads house.
Then fast forward a decade or so and there the partyer sits surrounded by crap and his bike with a flat tire, while the camera shows his friends with nice homes and loving families around them.

I say this because it's what happened in my circle of friends, and believe it or not, Jimmy is still in the same bedroom he was when we were 7, still getting high and perpetually broke from DUIs.
A PSA showing the long term effects of pot like they do for texting and drivng? I dont think it'll keep people from doing it but it'll be something else left on Youtube. Now make it dramatic like that UK Texting and Driving video, and people might pay more attention.

Title: Re: Yay or nay towards marajiuana?
Post by: Solar on February 01, 2013, 09:01:17 AM
Quote from: Balto on February 01, 2013, 07:26:37 AM
A PSA showing the long term effects of pot like they do for texting and drivng? I dont think it'll keep people from doing it but it'll be something else left on Youtube. Now make it dramatic like that UK Texting and Driving video, and people might pay more attention.
Yep, shame those that partake, but we know why the left isn't shaming drug use, the love dependents.
Title: Re: Yay or nay towards marajiuana?
Post by: kramarat on February 01, 2013, 11:04:55 AM
Quote from: Solar on February 01, 2013, 06:40:57 AM
You know, that's a damn good idea. They could depict several friends in their early 20s hanging out taking a hit off a joint, a couple suggest they go to the movies, one of them say's no man, lets just hang out and Par-taaay, the others get in a nice little car and head to the cinema, the partier gets on his bike and goes home, the camera pans around a modest home, then follows the kid to the basement full of crap where he proceeds to roll another, which happens to be his mom and dads house.
Then fast forward a decade or so and there the partyer sits surrounded by crap and his bike with a flat tire, while the camera shows his friends with nice homes and loving families around them.

I say this because it's what happened in my circle of friends, and believe it or not, Jimmy is still in the same bedroom he was when we were 7, still getting high and perpetually broke from DUIs.

Not to mention, that the younger generation is consumed with their image. It really wouldn't be too difficult to make drug use look "uncool". Just show them reality............30 year old stoners still living with their parents..........junkies living in alleys, etc.

I'll tell you the truth; I first tried pot when I was about 14 years old. The part that I thought was the coolest, was that I was breaking the law. It's a fact.

Also, while thinking about this thread........I still know people that smoke weed on the weekends. It's not crazed habit or anything; but I was thinking; with all of our laws, even though I don't hang out with anyone that does hard drugs, I bet I could make some phone calls, and within 24 hours, get my hands on just about any drug that exists. The laws aren't stopping anything.

Like us, most people just wise up and quit drugs on their own; whether it's pot or whatever.
Title: Re: Yay or nay towards marajiuana?
Post by: pisskop on February 01, 2013, 11:44:21 AM
Nay.  Bad for the kids, bad for the brain, bad for productivity.

In addition to being psychologically addicting, it tends to destroy the cells.  Its a toxin.  It kills cells.  By definition it is bad.
Title: Re: Yay or nay towards marajiuana?
Post by: Balto on February 01, 2013, 12:17:56 PM
Quote from: pisskop on February 01, 2013, 11:44:21 AM
Nay.  Bad for the kids, bad for the brain, bad for productivity.

In addition to being psychologically addicting, it tends to destroy the cells.  Its a toxin.  It kills cells.  By definition it is bad.
Certain strains, like Jack Herer increase productivity, making you creative.
Title: Re: Yay or nay towards marajiuana?
Post by: kramarat on February 01, 2013, 12:29:47 PM
Quote from: Balto on February 01, 2013, 12:17:56 PM
Certain strains, like Jack Herer increase productivity, making you creative.
:lol:
Title: Re: Yay or nay towards marajiuana?
Post by: Solar on February 01, 2013, 12:39:17 PM
Quote from: kramarat on February 01, 2013, 12:29:47 PM
:lol:
Yeah, I caught that too.
Now if I could just find my crayons and..damn, I've got the munchies, is that a fly on the wall, or a nail......oooh, cartons are on....
Title: Re: Yay or nay towards marajiuana?
Post by: kramarat on February 01, 2013, 12:58:41 PM
Quote from: Solar on February 01, 2013, 12:39:17 PM
Yeah, I caught that too.
Now if I could just find my crayons and..damn, I've got the munchies, is that a fly on the wall, or a nail......oooh, cartons are on....

I quit 20+ years ago, when I got to CA.

When I was a kid I smoked the the old weak stuff, like Panama Red and Acapulco Gold. I got to Santa Cruz, the damned stuff was so powerful I had to drop it. Couldn't handle it. :blush:
Title: Re: Yay or nay towards marajiuana?
Post by: Solar on February 01, 2013, 01:05:12 PM
Quote from: kramarat on February 01, 2013, 12:58:41 PM
I quit 20+ years ago, when I got to CA.

When I was a kid I smoked the the old weak stuff, like Panama Red and Acapulco Gold. I got to Santa Cruz, the damned stuff was so powerful I had to drop it. Couldn't handle it. :blush:
It's true, the stuff today, is what San Simeon was to a lid of Mexican rag, at least 10 times stronger.
Title: Re: Yay or nay towards marajiuana?
Post by: kramarat on February 01, 2013, 01:51:09 PM
Quote from: Solar on February 01, 2013, 01:05:12 PM
It's true, the stuff today, is what San Simeon was to a lid of Mexican rag, at least 10 times stronger.

I can't see how they think that complete paralysis is fun. :scared:
Title: Re: Yay or nay towards marajiuana?
Post by: TowardLiberty on February 01, 2013, 02:08:58 PM
You can generally gauge the depth of a person's understanding of private property, the law, individual liberty and the role of government, on this single issue.

Title: Re: Yay or nay towards marajiuana?
Post by: kramarat on February 01, 2013, 02:16:32 PM
Quote from: TowardLiberty on February 01, 2013, 02:08:58 PM
You can generally gauge the depth of a person's understanding of private property, the law, individual liberty and the role of government, on this single issue.

I can't disagree.

My approach would be to have everything decriminalized, but at the same time, I would stop sugar coating reality, and start exposing kids, from about 11 or 12 onward, to very graphic and unedited pictures of drug overdose victims, drunk driving crashes, etc., along with the life experiences of those that had succumbed to that kind of lifestyle.

I think we would have a much more intelligent and informed population. Not more drug users.
Title: Re: Yay or nay towards marajiuana?
Post by: TowardLiberty on February 01, 2013, 02:19:33 PM
Quote from: kramarat on February 01, 2013, 02:16:32 PM
I can't disagree.

My approach would be to have everything decriminalized, but at the same time, I would stop sugar coating reality, and start exposing kids, from about 11 or 12 onward, to very graphic and unedited pictures of drug overdose victims, drunk driving crashes, etc., along with the life experiences of those that had succumbed to that kind of lifestyle.

I think we would have a much more intelligent and informed population. Not more drug users.

Certainly can't disagree with you.

I also think that doing away with public education is probably the single change that would pay off the most in terms of cultivating a more informed and intelligent population.
Title: Re: Yay or nay towards marajiuana?
Post by: kramarat on February 01, 2013, 02:36:49 PM
Quote from: TowardLiberty on February 01, 2013, 02:19:33 PM
Certainly can't disagree with you.

I also think that doing away with public education is probably the single change that would pay off the most in terms of cultivating a more informed and intelligent population.

Anything that is done in the free market, is done better than anything that government has to offer.

A limited and rational amount of, (government enforced), laws will keep the free market honest and flowing freely.
Title: Re: Yay or nay towards marajiuana?
Post by: TowardLiberty on February 01, 2013, 02:41:58 PM
Quote from: kramarat on February 01, 2013, 02:36:49 PM
Anything that is done in the free market, is done better than anything that government has to offer.

A limited and rational amount of, (government enforced), laws will keep the free market honest and flowing freely.

Well I agree with the first statement- entirely.

And the second statement introduces an exception that I just can't agree with.

It is my contention that law is best produced in a private market, just as anything else.

I would further argue that when the state takes over the production and enforcement of the law, that the product is diminished greatly.
Title: Re: Yay or nay towards marajiuana?
Post by: BILLY Defiant on February 01, 2013, 02:55:15 PM
Quote from: Turks on February 01, 2013, 03:10:08 AM
Poll: Feds should butt out of states that legalize pot

"But the poll also showed that attitudes about legalizing pot for recreational use are almost evenly split, with 49 percent opposed and 47 percent in favor, which is with in the poll's plus-or-minus 3.8 percent margin of error.

All age groups under 64 are in favor of legalization, with those 64 and older opposing it by a 54 to 41-percent margin."






Read more: http://dailycaller.com/2013/01/31/poll-feds-should-butt-out-of-states-that-legalize-pot/#ixzz2Je1xui9j (http://dailycaller.com/2013/01/31/poll-feds-should-butt-out-of-states-that-legalize-pot/#ixzz2Je1xui9j)

Well another FLAWED poll....I'm under 64 so..... :lol:

Seriously

Young kids and Drugs....you really want that in our society?
More and more Youth and more and more people in general dependant on GOVT REGULATED drugs?

C'mon.....


NEVER TAKE WHAT YOUR ENEMY OFFERS.
Or

BEWARE GREEKS BEARING GIFTS.


Billy


Title: Re: Yay or nay towards marajiuana?
Post by: kramarat on February 01, 2013, 03:04:53 PM
Quote from: TowardLiberty on February 01, 2013, 02:41:58 PM
Well I agree with the first statement- entirely.

And the second statement introduces an exception that I just can't agree with.

It is my contention that law is best produced in a private market, just as anything else.

I would further argue that when the state takes over the production and enforcement of the law, that the product is diminished greatly.

That's where we part ways. I think the founders' thoughts on government's role were pretty good.
Title: Re: Yay or nay towards marajiuana?
Post by: Turks on February 01, 2013, 03:06:29 PM
Quote from: BILLY Defiant on February 01, 2013, 02:55:15 PM
Well another FLAWED poll....I'm under 64 so..... :lol:

Seriously

Young kids and Drugs....you really want that in our society?
More and more Youth and more and more people in general dependant on GOVT REGULATED drugs?

C'mon.....


NEVER TAKE WHAT YOUR ENEMY OFFERS.
Or

BEWARE GREEKS BEARING GIFTS.


Billy

"Well another FLAWED poll....I'm under 64 so...". :lol:


"Young kids and Drugs....you really want that in our society?"


I posted the poll to further the discussion but I would add that one exception hardly constitutes an entire poll or that it's representative of all those polled.   :huh:  So just because one is under 64, I'd say it's a stretch to conclude the poll is flawed on that factor alone. :biggrin:





I think it's safe to say that we already have that ("Young kids and Drugs") regardless of the debate over pot legalization.


Title: Re: Yay or nay towards marajiuana?
Post by: BILLY Defiant on February 01, 2013, 03:09:13 PM
Quote from: kramarat on January 31, 2013, 04:52:58 PM
If states are willing to openly disobey the federal government, I don't care if it's pot laws, turning down Obamacare, or refusing federal gun law mandates, it's a step in the right direction.


AHHHH funny you should mention the So called "War on drugs" and Obamaocare. Thanks to Obamaocare we are going to be shelling out even more for the rehab and treatment aspect of the WOD

See, I know for a fact that more than HALF of those trillions of dollars  vis a vis WOD were spent on REHABILITATION and TREATMENT as well as education.

Both were apparent failures, the Methadone program half way houses Govt rehab programs have about a 3% recovery rate. Education, aimed at YOUTH and the ONLY THING THAT COULD HAVE WORKED obviously failed because we have more kids using Marijuana and other drugs now than ever before...thanks to the influence DRUG CULTURE.
It seems now that the schools have gotten on board with the FDA and the Psychiatric establisment and almost seem to PROMOTE the drugging of our youth who exhibit "behavioral problems".

You don't think there might be a realtionship between saturating young people and the increase in violent behavior do you? Nahhhhh, didn't think so... :rolleyes:

Title: Re: Yay or nay towards marajiuana?
Post by: kramarat on February 01, 2013, 03:31:09 PM
QuoteYou don't think there might be a realtionship between saturating young people and the increase in violent behavior do you? Nahhhhh, didn't think so...

Considering that virtually all of the prescription drugs that they are being saturated with, say, "May cause increased depression and suicidal thoughts", on the label; I'd say there's no question about it.
Title: Re: Yay or nay towards marajiuana?
Post by: TowardLiberty on February 01, 2013, 04:09:07 PM
Quote from: kramarat on February 01, 2013, 03:04:53 PM
That's where we part ways. I think the founders' thoughts on government's role were pretty good.

Well, they were.

But they weren't the end all be all of human thought on the subject.
Title: Re: Yay or nay towards marajiuana?
Post by: kramarat on February 01, 2013, 04:15:47 PM
Quote from: TowardLiberty on February 01, 2013, 04:09:07 PM
Well, they were.

But they weren't the end all be all of human thought on the subject.

That's exactly what the liberals say, as they call for further government control over our lives, and utter dependency on them for everything.

When something better comes along than our founding documents, and I see it working perfectly in another country, maybe we could consider some minor changes. I won't be holding my breath.
Title: Re: Yay or nay towards marajiuana?
Post by: TowardLiberty on February 01, 2013, 04:28:49 PM
Quote from: kramarat on February 01, 2013, 04:15:47 PM
That's exactly what the liberals say, as they call for further government control over our lives, and utter dependency on them for everything.

Sure.

And I am saying the same thing only with a different conclusion- the founders had the right goals, they simply chose the wrong means.

Rather than expanding the government from the disfunctional articles, with a constitution, the logical path would be even further de-centralization, toward a market based society.

Quote
When something better comes along than our founding documents, and I see it working perfectly in another country, maybe we could consider some minor changes. I won't be holding my breath.

I dont think man is capable of tinkering with, or designing, a better system than natural liberty.

So the very idea that someone would look to the actions of another government for ideas about how to plan society here at home, strike me as fundamentally unsound.

Rather, I see society as a spontaneous order.

Nothing new needs to be invented.

It just needs freedom to evolve.
Title: Re: Yay or nay towards marajiuana?
Post by: kramarat on February 01, 2013, 04:38:13 PM
Quote from: TowardLiberty on February 01, 2013, 04:28:49 PM
Sure.

And I am saying the same thing only with a different conclusion- the founders had the right goals, they simply chose the wrong means.

Rather than expanding the government from the disfunctional articles, with a constitution, the logical path would be even further de-centralization, toward a market based society.

I dont think man is capable of tinkering with, or designing, a better system than natural liberty.

So the very idea that someone would look to the actions of another government for ideas about how to plan society here at home, strike me as fundamentally unsound.

Rather, I see society as a spontaneous order.

Nothing new needs to be invented.

It just needs freedom to evolve.

One thing that the founders dealt with, (probably the main thing), is human nature.

It's something that liberals and your style of libertarianism don't take into consideration. Both assume that humans are inherently good, and will default to doing the right thing.

History has repeatedly proven otherwise.

The founders despised the entire notion of centralized government; they also knew that it was necessary, but had to be strictly limited.

Those limitations are being slowly wiped away.
Title: Re: Yay or nay towards marajiuana?
Post by: TowardLiberty on February 01, 2013, 05:12:08 PM
Quote from: kramarat on February 01, 2013, 04:38:13 PM
One thing that the founders dealt with, (probably the main thing), is human nature.

It's something that liberals and your style of libertarianism don't take into consideration. Both assume that humans are inherently good, and will default to doing the right thing.



It definitely applies to liberals, conservatives and statists, (even believers in limited government) but the charge rings hollow when laid on libertarians.

I said this, earlier:

Quote
Though, I do find the idea that in putting the protection of property and person into the hands of a compulsory monopolist, we should expect efficiency in this realm, or in any other that has been monopolized in such a fashion, to be somewhat utopian.

I would turn Hobbes' argument upside down and claim that the flawed nature of man necessitates decentralized and voluntary forms of decision making, otherwise the incentives are such that men will use others, not as ends, but merely as means.

And then life will be nasty, brutish and short.

The implication of this line of argument is that those who put mere mortals in power and expect a rational order are but fooling themselves.

The nature of man is such that power corrupts him.

Therefore, no rational system of governing is possible- it is just not in the nature of man.

So I would turn the argument around and say that it is the anarchist libertarians who have a realistic understanding of human nature.

Where as liberals, statists and so on all share an irrational view of man, rooted in the thought of Thomas Hobbes.

I would even go so far as to say the Hobbesian view is utopian in the extreme.



Title: Re: Yay or nay towards marajiuana?
Post by: kramarat on February 01, 2013, 05:24:30 PM
Quote from: TowardLiberty on February 01, 2013, 05:12:08 PM
It definitely applies to liberals, conservatives and statists, (even believers in limited government) but the charge rings hollow when laid on libertarians.

I said this, earlier:

The implication of this line of argument is that those who put mere mortals in power and expect a rational order are but fooling themselves.

The nature of man is such that power corrupts him.

Therefore, no rational system of governing is possible- it is just not in the nature of man.

So I would turn the argument around and say that it is the anarchist libertarians who have a realistic understanding of human nature.

Where as liberals, statists and so on all share an irrational view of man, rooted in the thought of Thomas Hobbes.

I would even go so far as to say the Hobbesian view is utopian in the extreme.

Mere mortals, (in the US), were never intended to be in power. They were intended to represent the people.

I don't know who Thomas Hobbes is, but there will always be government.

It doesn't require a belief in God to recognize the duality of human nature. The evil, (or ill intentioned), will always seek to control the good..............and will; if we assume that the majority are good people, then a representative government, (in theory), should fall on the side of good. We are losing that. I think it's part of the reason that the GOP can't gain traction; they want to control, not represent.

The democrats also want to have complete control, but they are willing to give away the farm to get there. The pubs are a little more pragmatic.
Title: Re: Yay or nay towards marajiuana?
Post by: TowardLiberty on February 01, 2013, 05:36:24 PM
Quote from: kramarat on February 01, 2013, 05:24:30 PM
Mere mortals, (in the US), were never intended to be in power. They were intended to represent the people.

Well, what was intended was mighty different from what came to pass.

One need only look at the 10th amendment for that lesson.

Quote

I don't know who Thomas Hobbes is, but there will always be government.

I am kind of surprised to see you say that. Thomas Hobbes is a giant in political philosophy.

And there is no reason to think that there will always be a government.

People have free will. Choice exists.

Quote

It doesn't require a belief in God to recognize the duality of human nature. The evil, (or ill intentioned), will always seek to control the good..............and will; if we assume that the majority are good people, then a representative government, (in theory), should fall on the side of good. We are losing that. I think it's part of the reason that the GOP can't gain traction; they want to control, not represent.

The democrats also want to have complete control, but they are willing to give away the farm to get there. The pubs are a little more pragmatic.

I can't think in those partisan terms. For me they are both mechanisms of control and enforced serfdom.

Title: Re: Yay or nay towards marajiuana?
Post by: TowardLiberty on February 01, 2013, 05:38:44 PM
Thomas Hobbes argued that men's natures are such that they are given to using each other rather than cooperating.

So he posited that a state of nature or an environment without central authority, would devolve into chaos.

The error in his reasoning is to forget that his central authority is populated by those same flawed humans, and the nature that led one to predate on another, in the state of nature, still exists, and is magnified even further, when power is attained over others.
Title: Re: Yay or nay towards marajiuana?
Post by: kramarat on February 01, 2013, 06:46:30 PM
Quote from: TowardLiberty on February 01, 2013, 05:38:44 PM
Thomas Hobbes argued that men's natures are such that they are given to using each other rather than cooperating.

So he posited that a state of nature or an environment without central authority, would devolve into chaos.

The error in his reasoning is to forget that his central authority is populated by those same flawed humans, and the nature that led one to predate on another, in the state of nature, still exists, and is magnified even further, when power is attained over others.

Ever read Lord of the Flies?

Does free thought exist, or is every human being shaped by the thoughts of others?

Philosophical babble is fun and thought provoking, but it is emmitted by other flawed humans, and therefore, should be taken with a grain of salt.

I run on the concept that things are incredibly simple, recognizing it is the hard part.
Title: Re: Yay or nay towards marajiuana?
Post by: TowardLiberty on February 01, 2013, 08:16:46 PM
Quote from: kramarat on February 01, 2013, 06:46:30 PM
Ever read Lord of the Flies?

No, I have not. But I have a rudimentary idea of what it is about.[/quote]

Does free thought exist, or is every human being shaped by the thoughts of others?[/quote]

It is both.

They have free will but they are influenced by others, and are acting with limited knowledge, under genuine uncertainty about the future.

Sort of a feedback loop.

Quote
Philosophical babble is fun and thought provoking, but it is emmitted by other flawed humans, and therefore, should be taken with a grain of salt.

I run on the concept that things are incredibly simple, recognizing it is the hard part.

I share that view.
Title: Re: Yay or nay towards marajiuana?
Post by: kramarat on February 01, 2013, 08:22:45 PM
Quote from: TowardLiberty on February 01, 2013, 08:16:46 PM
No, I have not. But I have a rudimentary idea of what it is about.

Does free thought exist, or is every human being shaped by the thoughts of others?

It is both.

They have free will but they are influenced by others, and are acting with limited knowledge, under genuine uncertainty about the future.

Sort of a feedback loop.

I share that view.

If you get a chance, you should read that book. I read it in about 1977, and I still draw off it's insights.............which I didn't get at the time.
Title: Re: Yay or nay towards marajiuana?
Post by: Rockntractor on February 01, 2013, 09:08:24 PM
Legalize pot, I don't really care, it isn't going to save the world and it won't end it.
With the problems we have in this country right now that are coming to a head, this is not even on my top 500 list.

Did they every find a real way to get rid of ring around the collar?
Title: Re: Yay or nay towards marajiuana?
Post by: walkstall on February 01, 2013, 09:22:16 PM
Quote from: Rockntractor on February 01, 2013, 09:08:24 PM
Legalize pot, I don't really care, it isn't going to save the world and it won't end it.
With the problems we have in this country right now that are coming to a head, this is not even on my top 500 list.

Did they every find a real way to get rid of ring around the collar?

Yes they just removed the collar.