Quote from: Hoofer on July 23, 2017, 07:11:50 AM
Rand Paul .... sigh. Why do they always put Libertarianism on the top and Conservative to the right of the center?
Really need to redue this thing like an IQ test, Conservatives on top, Liberals on the bottom, Libertarians on the left & RINOs on the right,
(https://conservativepoliticalforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ontheissues.org%2Fimages%2Fs060_090.gif&hash=259e6271d2b5b1f8947ffb803e0769c64d03e584)
... sigh, as the years tread on, so does Rand Paul, sounding more and more like his father *and* a Washington insider.
I've always taken issue with the graph too. I believe this to be most representative of the political spectrum, with one exception, anarchism.
Anarchism belongs on the extreme left, communism requires anarchism for it to be welcomed as a soothing power, though it usually comes to power under the guise of Nationalism.
So pretend anarchism is on the left and this graph makes total sense, especially when one considers our own founding, it was not born out of riot nor carnage, rather those who sought free trade, security, and piece amongst districts.
(https://conservativepoliticalforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F3.bp.blogspot.com%2F_TI8bO8GurcI%2FTM1o46ME7OI%2FAAAAAAAACXY%2FQ9VUDjjjaco%2Fs1600%2FPolitical%2BSpectrum%2BDiagram%2B-%2BForeign%2BRelations.jpg&hash=72ff8fb2a87f38c47cc1d5aa22b8056f08d3b7f1)
Gee.... from the way Rand Paul runs a campaign as a Libertarian-conservative, but after it's over, becomes a free-wheeling, lawless, anything-goes-liberal, why should anyone trust this guy?
Quote from: Solar on July 23, 2017, 07:47:19 AM
(https://conservativepoliticalforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F3.bp.blogspot.com%2F_TI8bO8GurcI%2FTM1o46ME7OI%2FAAAAAAAACXY%2FQ9VUDjjjaco%2Fs1600%2FPolitical%2BSpectrum%2BDiagram%2B-%2BForeign%2BRelations.jpg&hash=72ff8fb2a87f38c47cc1d5aa22b8056f08d3b7f1)
I would modify the diagram as follows:
Swap Libertarian with Conservative,
and make the whole thing a circle,
with Communist and Anarchist at the bottom.
Anarchy means there's no government to prevent criminals from abusing everyone else.
The only difference between Anarchy and Communism is,
under Communism, the government IS the criminal abusing everyone else!
Quote from: je_freedom on July 23, 2017, 06:17:52 PM
I would modify the diagram as follows:
Swap Libertarian with Conservative,
and make the whole thing a circle,
with Communist and Anarchist at the bottom.
Anarchy means there's no government to prevent criminals from abusing everyone else.
The only difference between Anarchy and Communism is,
under Communism, the government IS the criminal abusing everyone else!
NO, Libertarian is closer to anarchist, Conservatives believe in extremely limited govt, Libertarian's border on none at all, literally next to none which is the end of the list, and no, the circle is not what happens in real life, where destruction is concerned, there is no way it will be directly connected to a working society which is why anarchism is directly connected to communism, history proves this to be true.
I find that too often, people see true Libertarianism as a form of Utopia, nothing could be further from the truth, in fact, it is society that dictates behavior, laws are merely a reminder to most as to right and wrong, but when no law exists, you'll always have people demanding their special right to whatever, stepping all over what constitutes a working society.
Anarchism is the absence of law, Libertarians don't like societal rules, meaning the first thing that happens, is a demand for a stronger govt with stricter laws to quell a collapsing society.
If one were to query 100 Libertarians, they would find that not one person would agree on laws governing society, or what constitutes a functioning govt.
As I've pointed out many times, San Fran used to be the epitome of a Libertarian society, where looking the other way when societal rules were violated, under the idea that "'it's another's personal Liberties being exercised."
Look at it today, where riding butt ass naked on public transportation is a Right, shaming those that reject such behavior will not be tolerated, but outlawing guns leads to peace?
Fact is, laws like the Bill of Rights do more to collar govt than any form of Libertarianism, while our Founding documents were about as close to perfect as any society could hope to achieve, the Libertarian wants even less govt, as if that were even possible.
SF now represents dictatorial powers over people because they went from near anarchism after Libertarian rule or lack thereof.
Yeah, Libertarian Utopia works sooo well, doesn't it?
Society decides what works best regarding laws based on millennia of successes and failures, it recognizes uncontrolled drug use as destructive to society, while Libertarians want to ignore history in this area.
Society functions because of law not for lack of law.
Spin this off for a new thread - it's a subject worthy of indepth discussion (again).
Quote from: Hoofer on July 24, 2017, 06:16:12 AM
Spin this off for a new thread - it's a subject worthy of indepth discussion (again).
Maybe Walks will break it off for us. My browser doesn't allow me the things he's able to do.
Amazing isn't it, I own the forum and he has more control than me. :lol:
Quote from: Solar on July 24, 2017, 07:08:34 AM
Maybe Walks will break it off for us. My browser doesn't allow me the things he's able to do.
Amazing isn't it, I own the forum and he has more control than me. :lol:
Change browsers. :lol:
Quote from: quiller on July 24, 2017, 07:12:33 AM
Change browsers. :lol:
I use 5 actually, and Chrome is the only one with the most functionality and add ons.
I believe it's some sort of network issue in my OS that interferes, and as long as I have Walks, I see no reason to break my pooter in hopes of claiming a bit more functionality.
He does a fine job, even faster than me at times.
Quote from: Solar on July 24, 2017, 07:16:41 AM
I use 5 actually, and Chrome is the only one with the most functionality and add ons.
I believe it's some sort of network issue in my OS that interferes, and as long as I have Walks, I see no reason to break my pooter in hopes of claiming a bit more functionality.
He does a fine job, even faster than me at times.
I've known you all too long to get mean here, but we're all getting older. Joke all we want, the inevitable question is: what happens if....? For example: if Taxed drops dead, can you PROVE You own this forum? If *I* drop dead, who criticizes the obvious? THINK, man! Learn your PC!
:lol:
Quote from: quiller on July 24, 2017, 07:51:51 AM
I've known you all too long to get mean here, but we're all getting older. Joke all we want, the inevitable question is: what happens if....? For example: if Taxed drops dead, can you PROVE You own this forum? If *I* drop dead, who criticizes the obvious? THINK, man! Learn your PC!
:lol:
To be honest, I used to love tinkering, perfecting the actions of my PC, that is, until I hit that God Damned deer on my Harley and took a serious shot to the head, removing all of my fillings in the process and resulting in memory loss for at least a year, and don't ask what I forgot, as so many do, like asking a blind man "Why don't you drive"?
My days of genius slowly came to a halt in the following years, Hell, I find myself puzzled at my own electrical and construction work I did decades ago on my own home, and this brings a stark reminder that I'm no longer as sharp as I used to be.
But where one ends, another begins, so my interests changed as did my intellect, maybe even for the better, as does an old man taking interest in watching his garden grow.
I know I lost about 20% of my mental function (Yet I can still outwit any lib with both brains tied behind my back), and that really sucked, because I used to have a truly quick wit, that shit no longer exists. Or maybe I never had it, I can't seem to remember. :laugh:
Quote from: Solar on July 24, 2017, 07:08:34 AM
Maybe Walks will break it off for us. My browser doesn't allow me the things he's able to do.
Amazing isn't it, I own the forum and he has more control than me. :lol:
At what Reply # would you like the split started?
Solar's rely, #10 would work. It might be interesting to discuss these charts, maybe come up with a sensible one.
Quote from: walkstall on July 24, 2017, 03:14:44 PM
At what Reply # would you like the split started?
Yeah, #10 is good.
Thanks Walks. Let's hear a round for Walks. :thumbsup:
Quote from: Solar on July 24, 2017, 04:02:59 PM
Yeah, #10 is good.
Thanks Walks. Let's hear a round for Walks. :thumbsup:
:thumbup:
Ever see these political spectrum charts? I look at these things, and find myself not landing anywhere. Here's a couple.
(https://conservativepoliticalforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.conservativedailynews.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2015%2F08%2FSpectrum3.png&hash=8d645a405de90f82f0dd7e4964cce5ca411c0922)
another one
(https://conservativepoliticalforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fthoughtsaloud.com%2Fimages%2Fpolitical_circle_small.jpg&hash=e1f2ee805627b0ce48963c886c46b67f1346d68c)
and another
(https://conservativepoliticalforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.rationalrevolution.net%2Fimages%2Fnolan.gif&hash=7e02713e11ba9104b85f77f4e3d56cd6188c0368)
one with individuals (as an example)
(https://conservativepoliticalforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fstatic.onepoliticalplaza.com%2Fupload%2F2015%2F5%2F20%2Fthumb-1432135169190-safari_3.jpg&hash=4999ab2f31136647c0a2e44b528894a71c85eff8)
Historical ...?
(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/4f/5d/23/4f5d238d0c768d5428c102eb3633b931.jpg)
Horseshoe?
(https://pics.onsizzle.com/political-horse-shoe-sam-harris-me-liberalism-bad-people-center-2936890.png)
I hate these things. They don't apply to me, my family and assumes you can't believe one thing, and still belong to another, similar thing.
[/quote]
Quote from: Hoofer on July 25, 2017, 06:18:26 AM
and another
(https://conservativepoliticalforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.rationalrevolution.net%2Fimages%2Fnolan.gif&hash=7e02713e11ba9104b85f77f4e3d56cd6188c0368)
When does my personal liberty and economic liberty end in anything but a Constitutional Conservatism?
...and the opposite of that is a Populist?
What's a Centrist then - the guy who answers surveys with, "Not sure" & "No Opinion"?
Quote from: Solar on July 24, 2017, 06:11:01 AM
NO, Libertarian is closer to anarchist, Conservatives believe in extremely limited govt, Libertarian's border on none at all, literally next to none which is the end of the list, and no, the circle is not what happens in real life, where destruction is concerned, there is no way it will be directly connected to a working society which is why anarchism is directly connected to communism, history proves this to be true.
Etc.
That's kind of what I was saying.
I would put Libertarianism next to Anarchy, next to Communism.
Under Anarchy, there is no government to restrain street gangs.
It's just one more tiny step to Communism,
where the street gangs proclaim themselves to BE the government.
There are two ways to get to Communism:
increasing government control, which gradually builds Communism,
and NO government control, where Communism pops up to fill the vacuum.
Conservatives are Libertarians who understand
how personal behavior affects the community,
and therefore understand how behavior must be restrained
by a limited government.
Conservatives are afraid of heights?
Quote from: The Boo Man... on July 26, 2017, 01:56:18 AM
Conservatives are afraid of heights?
No, more like ground level, whereas liberals are the ones down in the sewers, and unable to climb up and out.
Quote from: quiller on July 26, 2017, 02:40:59 PM
No, more like ground level, whereas liberals are the ones down in the sewers, and unable to climb up and out.
... liberals are the ones down in the sewers, and
unable unWILLING to climb up and out.
There! Fixed it!
Hi everyone, I'm new here, nice to meet you. Now to the topic, I have seen these things laid out in a number of ways. If you tried to describe world-view as it truly is I am afraid it would be some kind of unillustratable ten dimensional monster. Just in this thread people have illustrated:
social lib -vs- social cons.
fiscal lib -vs- fiscal cons.
globalist -vs- nationalist
totalitarianism -vs- liberty
left ideology -vs- right ideology
Sort of the classical version of these graphs as I understand it has the two dimensions being social beliefs and fiscal beliefs with
Conservatives being both fiscally and socially conservative (Ted Cruz),
Liberals both fiscally and socially liberal (Obama),
Libertarians being fiscally conservative and socially liberal (Rand Paul),
and Populists being socially conservative and fiscally liberal(Mike Huckabee).
Fiscal Liberals believe that if you imagine it to be then it will be, and that math is not something concrete.
Fiscal Conservatives believe that math is real and that if you spend more than you make you will have a problem.
Social Liberals believe that morals are not real and are just based on societal norms, therefor if you change society you can change proper morals. They are generally for same sex marriage, abortion, etc...
Social Conservatives believe that morals are based in reality and are not fluid. Typically that they are determined by God.
The graph that was originally posted here is the one that libertarians use which re-imagines social liberalism as social liberty making libertarianism the pinnacle of liberty.
Quote from: JasonTarmon on July 31, 2017, 12:09:59 PM
Hi everyone, I'm new here, nice to meet you. Now to the topic, I have seen these things laid out in a number of ways. If you tried to describe world-view as it truly is I am afraid it would be some kind of unillustratable ten dimensional monster. Just in this thread people have illustrated:
social lib -vs- social cons.
fiscal lib -vs- fiscal cons.
globalist -vs- nationalist
totalitarianism -vs- liberty
left ideology -vs- right ideology
Sort of the classical version of these graphs as I understand it has the two dimensions being social beliefs and fiscal beliefs with
Conservatives being both fiscally and socially conservative (Ted Cruz),
Liberals both fiscally and socially liberal (Obama),
Libertarians being fiscally conservative and socially liberal (Rand Paul),
and Populists being socially conservative and fiscally liberal(Mike Huckabee).
Fiscal Liberals believe that if you imagine it to be then it will be, and that math is not something concrete.
Fiscal Conservatives believe that math is real and that if you spend more than you make you will have a problem.
Social Liberals believe that morals are not real and are just based on societal norms, therefor if you change society you can change proper morals. They are generally for same sex marriage, abortion, etc...
Social Conservatives believe that morals are based in reality and are not fluid. Typically that they are determined by God.
The graph that was originally posted here is the one that libertarians use which re-imagines social liberalism as social liberty making libertarianism the pinnacle of liberty.
Welcome to the forum.
I think you did an excellent job with your descriptions.
Quote from: JasonTarmon on July 31, 2017, 12:09:59 PM
Hi everyone, I'm new here, nice to meet you. Now to the topic, I have seen these things laid out in a number of ways. If you tried to describe world-view as it truly is I am afraid it would be some kind of unillustratable ten dimensional monster. Just in this thread people have illustrated:
social lib -vs- social cons.
fiscal lib -vs- fiscal cons.
globalist -vs- nationalist
totalitarianism -vs- liberty
left ideology -vs- right ideology
Sort of the classical version of these graphs as I understand it has the two dimensions being social beliefs and fiscal beliefs with
Conservatives being both fiscally and socially conservative (Ted Cruz),
Liberals both fiscally and socially liberal (Obama),
Libertarians being fiscally conservative and socially liberal (Rand Paul),
and Populists being socially conservative and fiscally liberal(Mike Huckabee).
Fiscal Liberals believe that if you imagine it to be then it will be, and that math is not something concrete.
Fiscal Conservatives believe that math is real and that if you spend more than you make you will have a problem.
Social Liberals believe that morals are not real and are just based on societal norms, therefor if you change society you can change proper morals. They are generally for same sex marriage, abortion, etc...
Social Conservatives believe that morals are based in reality and are not fluid. Typically that they are determined by God.
The graph that was originally posted here is the one that libertarians use which re-imagines social liberalism as social liberty making libertarianism the pinnacle of liberty.
Pretty spot on Jason, well done. Welcome to the forum by the way, good to have you aboard, you seem to have a solid grasp on the political world.
Quote from: JasonTarmon on July 31, 2017, 12:09:59 PM
Hi everyone, I'm new here, nice to meet you. Now to the topic, I have seen these things laid out in a number of ways. If you tried to describe world-view as it truly is I am afraid it would be some kind of unillustratable ten dimensional monster. Just in this thread people have illustrated:
social lib -vs- social cons.
fiscal lib -vs- fiscal cons.
globalist -vs- nationalist
totalitarianism -vs- liberty
left ideology -vs- right ideology
Sort of the classical version of these graphs as I understand it has the two dimensions being social beliefs and fiscal beliefs with
Conservatives being both fiscally and socially conservative (Ted Cruz),
Liberals both fiscally and socially liberal (Obama),
Libertarians being fiscally conservative and socially liberal (Rand Paul),
and Populists being socially conservative and fiscally liberal(Mike Huckabee).
Fiscal Liberals believe that if you imagine it to be then it will be, and that math is not something concrete.
Fiscal Conservatives believe that math is real and that if you spend more than you make you will have a problem.
Social Liberals believe that morals are not real and are just based on societal norms, therefor if you change society you can change proper morals. They are generally for same sex marriage, abortion, etc...
Social Conservatives believe that morals are based in reality and are not fluid. Typically that they are determined by God.
The graph that was originally posted here is the one that libertarians use which re-imagines social liberalism as social liberty making libertarianism the pinnacle of liberty.
Interesting.... I understand why Libertarians would wish to elevate themselves as the best of all for Liberty - to appeal to voters.
If a person is a Constitutional Conservative, I assume they would be the the best part of a Libertarian & Conservative & an Individualist (or Independent?).... right? Not an argument, but looking for greater understanding.
I'm all for the freedom of conscience of the individual, as the Bible & Constitution allows, call those natural rights, endowed by the Creator.
But, the typical conservative seems to be "drifting" away from the founding documents and principles (and retaining the name, Conservative).
So these charts, though interesting, basically place that position nowhere that makes sense. Either it's my lack of understanding, or someone is changing the 'standard' - so called.
I'd like to see an "honest" chart.
Welcome and thank for your input.
Quote from: Hoofer on July 31, 2017, 05:44:27 PM
Interesting.... I understand why Libertarians would wish to elevate themselves as the best of all for Liberty - to appeal to voters.
If a person is a Constitutional Conservative, I assume they would be the the best part of a Libertarian & Conservative & an Individualist (or Independent?).... right? Not an argument, but looking for greater understanding.
I'm all for the freedom of conscience of the individual, as the Bible & Constitution allows, call those natural rights, endowed by the Creator.
But, the typical conservative seems to be "drifting" away from the founding documents and principles (and retaining the name, Conservative).
So these charts, though interesting, basically place that position nowhere that makes sense. Either it's my lack of understanding, or someone is changing the 'standard' - so called.
I'd like to see an "honest" chart.
Welcome and thank for your input.
Today's true Conservative is yesteryears Classic liberal, so we have not changed, it's the leftist gop'E that's attempting to usurp tyhe very meaning of Conservative via the help of the LSM that's making you question its meaning.
I assure you, Conservatives have not changed, the very meaning of the term.
Here is a chart I ran across today that graphs voters in the 2016 presidential election based on the same ideological categories that I outlined earlier in this thread. Libertarians are a loud group but, at least according to this study, basically don't exist.
It is also a bit concerning how centrist Republicans are fiscally. Bad news.
(https://pixel.nymag.com/imgs/daily/intelligencer/2017/06/16/16-left-vs-right-chart-1.nocrop.w710.h2147483647.png)
Quote from: JasonTarmon on August 10, 2017, 03:33:30 PM
Here is a chart I ran across today that graphs voters in the 2016 presidential election based on the same ideological categories that I outlined earlier in this thread. Libertarians are a loud group but, at least according to this study, basically don't exist.
It is also a bit concerning how centrist Republicans are fiscally. Bad news.
Libertarians cover the entire plot, almost evenly, IMHO, makes them non-existent & neutered as a political force - ie., Rand Paul as a perfect example. If the guy was only paid for productivity, he would be starving and homeless.