Borrowed the following from the thread about 1000 gun owners, etc, etc...

QuoteFed up with the passage of an 18½-page incoherent, rambling, unconstitutional gun control initiative that was bankrolled by billionaires, gun owners across Washington state held the largest felony civil disobedience rally in the nation's history, brazenly titled "I Will Not Comply." No one was hurt and no stores were looted. Between 1,000 and 3,000 lawful gun owners showed up openly armed at the state capitol in Olympia, Wash., on Saturday to defy the newly passed gun control law, I-594.


Organizer Gavin Seim made the extraordinary nature of the rally very clear, "This isn't just a protest. We are here to openly violate the law." Attendees publicly transferred their guns to each other in violation of I-591's background check provisions, and some even bought and sold guns just a few feet away from law enforcement. A fire pit blazed throughout the rally, and at the conclusion, gun owners lined up to burn their concealed weapons permits. A petition was circulated affirming gun owners' refusal to follow I-594, which ended with, "We pledge our blood. We will not comply."


As the RSVPs in advance of the rally grew to over 6,000, the police - most who probably detest I-594 - decided not to enforce the law. The Washington State Patrol announced there would be no arrests for exchanging guns - not even for selling guns. Seim refused to obtain a permit to hold the rally, citing the right of people to peaceably assemble.

Okay, here is my question...

What if the cops had decided to enforce the law?

How many of those "law abiding gun owners" would have actively resisted?

How many would have actually have been prepared to spill the blood of cops, or have their own blood spilled by cops to stand by their pledge "Not to Comply"?

Keep in mind these folks all have jobs to go to, families to come home to, mortgages and car payments to be made. It's play-off season for football...

My guess is, damned few - if any!

Like Rush Limbaugh, I live in Realville. If the cops want your guns, they are going to get them, one way or another, and few people, if any will do anything about it.

Darth

Quote from: Darth Fife on December 19, 2014, 09:13:40 AM
Borrowed the following from the thread about 1000 gun owners, etc, etc...

Okay, here is my question...

What if the cops had decided to enforce the law?

How many of those "law abiding gun owners" would have actively resisted?

How many would have actually have been prepared to spill the blood of cops, or have their own blood spilled by cops to stand by their pledge "Not to Comply"?

Keep in mind these folks all have jobs to go to, families to come home to, mortgages and car payments to be made. It's play-off season for football...

My guess is, damned few - if any!

Like Rush Limbaugh, I live in Realville. If the cops want your guns, they are going to get them, one way or another, and few people, if any will do anything about it.

Darth

Then why didn't you post it there, why a new thread?
But to answer your question. You really don't get "Core Values", do you?
These people were prepared to hold their ground, it's why they didn't file a permit, it's also why police left well enough alone, they knew they were serious.

Quote from: Solar on December 19, 2014, 10:22:00 AM
Then why didn't you post it there, why a new thread?
But to answer your question. You really don't get "Core Values", do you?
These people were prepared to hold their ground, it's why they didn't file a permit, it's also why police left well enough alone, they knew they were serious.

I started it here because I think it is worthy of its own discussion and I didn't want to derail the original thread.

And, I do get "core values". Those values begin at home - providing for one's home and family. It's kind of hard to do that if you are locked up in jail for resisting arrest, or shot dead in a shoot out with cops over "gun rights".

I feel that most Americans, and even most gun owners, feel this way.

I think that if most gun owners were given the choice of surrendering their guns peaceably to the government, and being allowed to continue their lives otherwise unmolested, or to end up as an outlaw on the run, they'd hand over their guns in a heartbeat.

This isn't the 1770s! With very few exceptions guns are not an integral part of a person's life. They are for most folks, a hobby.

I don't know many people willing to give up their livelihoods - or lives - for a hobby!

Darth

Quote from: Darth Fife on December 19, 2014, 10:44:49 AM
I started it here because I think it is worthy of its own discussion and I didn't want to derail the original thread.

And, I do get "core values". Those values begin at home - providing for one's home and family. It's kind of hard to do that if you are locked up in jail for resisting arrest, or shot dead in a shoot out with cops over "gun rights".

I feel that most Americans, and even most gun owners, feel this way.

I think that if most gun owners were given the choice of surrendering their guns peaceably to the government, and being allowed to continue their lives otherwise unmolested, or to end up as an outlaw on the run, they'd hand over their guns in a heartbeat.

This isn't the 1770s! With very few exceptions guns are not an integral part of a person's life. They are for most folks, a hobby.

I don't know many people willing to give up their livelihoods - or lives - for a hobby!

Darth

So, the lawlessness and despots and criminal rule 10 miles into Mexico..........could never effect us  ?  Especially with impotent, or actively subversive, presidents like Obama  ?

Exremely shortsighted and naive on your part.

Quote from: Darth Fife on December 19, 2014, 10:44:49 AM
I started it here because I think it is worthy of its own discussion and I didn't want to derail the original thread.

And, I do get core values". Those values begin at home - providing for one's home and family. It's kind of hard to do that if you are locked up in jail for resisting arrest, or shot dead in a shoot out with cops over "gun rights".

Obviously you don't. Fighting for ones Liberties is a core value of Conservatism, just like one fights to protect his family.
Most patriots, including the ones that attended the protest were ready to lay their lives down for the sake of their progeny' freedoms.

QuoteI feel that most Americans, and even most gun owners, feel this way.

"FEEL"? Try thinking, it tends to carry more validity.

QuoteI think that if most gun owners were given the choice of surrendering their guns peaceably to the government, and being allowed to continue their lives otherwise unmolested, or to end up as an outlaw on the run, they'd hand over their guns in a heartbeat.

And you'd be dead wrong! Which I'm sure you're about to find out when others read your "Feelings" on the issue.

QuoteThis isn't the 1770s! With very few exceptions guns are not an integral part of a person's life. They are for most folks, a hobby.

I don't know many people willing to give up their livelihoods - or lives - for a hobby!

Darth

Again, you'd be wrong, especially when you compare the numbers of people fighting the British during the Tea party, to those of today. They had less support back then, than gun ownership today and the will to protect said Right.

For someone that claims to love history, you certainly have a tenuous grasp of it's meaning.

Quote from: Solar on December 19, 2014, 11:07:52 AM
Obviously you don't. Fighting for ones Liberties is a core value of Conservatism, just like one fights to protect his family.

And I repeat - it is damned hard to take care of your family when you are 1) in Jail, 2) a fugitive on the run from the law or 3) DEAD!

Most grown ups realizes this reality.

QuoteMost patriots, including the ones that attended the protest were ready to lay their lives down for the sake of their progeny' freedoms.

If the cops had started arresting people, most of the rest would have left rather quickly. If the cops had started shooting, everybody would have run for the hills.

Quote"FEEL"? Try thinking, it tends to carry more validity.

My feelings are grounded in facts.

QuoteAnd you'd be dead wrong! Which I'm sure you're about to find out when others read your "Feelings" on the issue.

Bravery on an internet forum is one thing. Bravery when facing down an armed police officer who is willing to kill you to achieve his goal, is something else. It is very rare these days.

QuoteAgain, you'd be wrong, especially when you compare the numbers of people fighting the British during the Tea party, to those of today. They had less support back then, than gun ownership today and the will to protect said Right.

The British fielded a force (including Indians, Loyalist and mercanaries) of about 120,000 during the Revolution.

Today, the Federal Government alone fields a force of "law enforcement officers" equal to that of the British Army during the Revolution. State and local law enforcement agencies total about 900,000 "sworn" officers/agents.

Yes, there are a whole shitload of gun owners in this country - and not one in 10 (more like 1 in 100) would ever think of resisting a cop, or, worse, firing on a police officer!

Do you naively think that the Government is going to come out and say, "We're a tyrannical oligarchy now, and we demand you surrender your guns so we can crush the life out of you and make you all slaves!"

No, they're not going to do that.

They are going to identify individuals and groups, on the fringe at first, as dangers to society. They will be the first to be disarmed.

Then, anyone who shows sympathy with those groups will be demonized - look at what the SPLC is doing even as we speak - and then they will be disarmed.

Despite all of its money and power, the NRA will either be outlawed or sued into insolvency - as will any other "gun-rights" organization.

And no one will lift a finger to stop it because they don't want to be next on the list!

But, it will just be a matter of time as the Government propaganda mill does the same thing to the remaining gun owners that it has already done to smokers.

Oh, there will be a few hardcore hold outs, and that will make for some ratings grabbing video on the nightly news, but in the end, the Government will win and the populace will be disarmed.

I would say within a generation - two at the most - America will be, for all intents and purposes, disarmed. 

Darth

Quote from: AndyJackson on December 19, 2014, 11:06:12 AM
So, the lawlessness and despots and criminal rule 10 miles into Mexico..........could never effect us  ?  Especially with impotent, or actively subversive, presidents like Obama  ?

Exremely shortsighted and naive on your part.

You miss the point. I'm not the Government. I'm not the one who is going to be taking your guns away from you.

Now, if you asked, does all of that matter to the Government bureaucrats and politicians who are determined to disarm the average American citizen...

Well, I think we both know the answer to that question!

Darth

Quote from: Darth Fife on December 19, 2014, 09:13:40 AM
Okay, here is my question...

What if the cops had decided to enforce the law?

How many of those "law abiding gun owners" would have actively resisted?

You present a hypothetical question to initiate a debate on something that didn't happen. 

Quote from: kit saginaw on December 19, 2014, 02:59:23 PM
You present a hypothetical question to initiate a debate on something that didn't happen.

But very well could have. And, it is not inconceivable that it might happen in the not to distant future.

Eventually, there is going to be a "showdown"...

Darth

Quote from: Darth Fife on December 19, 2014, 02:46:59 PM
And I repeat - it is damned hard to take care of your family when you are 1) in Jail, 2) a fugitive on the run from the law or 3) DEAD!

One word describes a true patriot conservative. Statesman.
Most grown ups realizes this reality.
You didn't, which is why I had to explain it.
You see, I, as a Conservative Patriot realize much more is at stake than my happiness, it's the stability of the nation, it's laws and culture and most importantly, our Bill of Rights. Something worth dying over.
Is this a nation you'd want to live in if our Rights were stolen?

QuoteIf the cops had started arresting people, most of the rest would have left rather quickly. If the cops had started shooting, everybody would have run for the hills.

Really, then why did they not draw a permit to rally, why did they come full armed if they expected to get arrested and lose their weapons?

QuoteMy feelings are grounded in facts.

Your "feelings" are not facts.

QuoteBravery on an internet forum is one thing. Bravery when facing down an armed police officer who is willing to kill you to achieve his goal, is something else. It is very rare these days.

OK, I get it, you're a coward. I'm not!
Cops have families as well, and I have no doubt that was taken into consideration when they decided not to risk the lives of innocent police officers. Also keep in mind, many if not most of the officers were probably supporters of what these protesters were doing, regardless of your unfounded "Feelings" toward law enforcement

QuoteThe British fielded a force (including Indians, Loyalist and mercanaries) of about 120,000 during the Revolution.

Today, the Federal Government alone fields a force of "law enforcement officers" equal to that of the British Army during the Revolution. State and local law enforcement agencies total about 900,000 "sworn" officers/agents.

Counter that with an armed populace in the US. There's no comparison.

QuoteYes, there are a whole shitload of gun owners in this country - and not one in 10 (more like 1 in 100) would ever think of resisting a cop, or, worse, firing on a police officer!

Most are also law abiding, but if the police decide to break that law, all bets are off.

Quote

• Do you naively think that the Government is going to come out and say, "We're a tyrannical oligarchy now, and we demand you surrender your guns so we can crush the life out of you and make you all slaves!"
  
  No, they're not going to do that.
  
  They are going to identify individuals and groups, on the fringe at first, as dangers to society. They will be the first to be disarmed.

[/list
Then, anyone who shows sympathy with those groups will be demonized - look at what the SPLC is doing even as we speak - and then they will be disarmed.

You mean like those that stood off the govt at the Bundy ranch? Yeah, the govt showed them.

QuoteDespite all of its money and power, the NRA will either be outlawed or sued into insolvency - as will any other "gun-rights" organization.

And no one will lift a finger to stop it because they don't want to be next on the list!

But, it will just be a matter of time as the Government propaganda mill does the same thing to the remaining gun owners that it has already done to smokers.

Oh, there will be a few hardcore hold outs, and that will make for some ratings grabbing video on the nightly news, but in the end, the Government will win and the populace will be disarmed.

I would say within a generation - two at the most - America will be, for all intents and purposes, disarmed. 

Darth

What the Hell? Are you on medication? You should be.

Quote from: Darth Fife on December 19, 2014, 09:13:40 AM
Borrowed the following from the thread about 1000 gun owners, etc, etc...

Okay, here is my question...

What if the cops had decided to enforce the law?

How many of those "law abiding gun owners" would have actively resisted?

How many would have actually have been prepared to spill the blood of cops, or have their own blood spilled by cops to stand by their pledge "Not to Comply"?

Keep in mind these folks all have jobs to go to, families to come home to, mortgages and car payments to be made. It's play-off season for football...

My guess is, damned few - if any!

Like Rush Limbaugh, I live in Realville. If the cops want your guns, they are going to get them, one way or another, and few people, if any will do anything about it.

Darth

Until/Unless these people  are prepared to take up arms against the goverment, along with all the consequences that may follow, no American ought to engage in any form of armed act of defiance of any law.  We are a nation of laws and an armed protest is not a lawful act of civil disobedience.  Like the Boston Masacre it doesn't take very much for a demonstration to turn very lethal very quickly. (It's said that either Sam Adams himself or one of his supporters fired the first shot).  Just like the 'demonstrators' in Furgeson have no real control over what others in their midst may do, during an armed demonstration flauantling the law, one idiot could cause a tragic unintended consequence.  John Adams defended the soldiers who fired into the crowd.  Like the cops, they were only doing their job!

I don't support either anarchy or insurection.  Anything we do to counter the lawlessness of temporary holders of our elected public offices, needs to be within our own Constitutional Rights.  We may organize to change laws we do not do not like. , However, if citizens may choose on their own, which laws to obey and which ones to ignor, we will have anarchy!

While we're on the subject of "realsville" do you really think the cops would dedicate the manpower (Read OVERTIME) to arrest 1,000, 2,000 or even 500 people?.....No way...they would spend the next two months doing paperwork (which most despise) processing evidence (the guns) all of which would have to be test fired and cleared through NCIC/ATF data base check for stolen more time more paperwork....the Commander in charge of the lock up would have to turn most of the arrestee's away, release on personal recognizance or no bail.

The prosecutors office would likewise be swamped with paperwork and would have to appoint a special team of Attorneys to prepare the cases....Then there would be Probable Cause hearings, GRAND JURY   (What if a jury of their peers decided NOT TO INDICT!!!!!)  IT WOULD BREAK THE BUDGET OF BOTH THE POLICE AND THE PROSECUTORS.

Get real, the Cops can;t keep track of five million illegals which somehow grew to around 20 million NOW, you think they could track, confiscate and prosecute 5 million gun owners....

Simple math sports fans....an eight man team going door to door, executing search warrants, 4 hrs minimum to search a three bedroom home, two hours to process evidence and prisoners...thats an eight hour shift, now times that by however many million gun owners we have in the US...should take about fifty years.

Now my last shot (pun intended) is gonna be this....what you think is going on in the minds of your average cop on the street right now with all this BS over the recent grand jury decisions and Obamao and Holder talking about indicting them the next time they shot a minority...despite what a grand jury returns?

That has a good possibilty of happening folks...AND THAT IS REAL DANGEROUS....The left has embrased this "Ombudsman" heory before, back in the 60's, then again in the 70's and 80's...this has long been the darling idea of the left and you hear that ass SHarpton and Holder conspiring to do just the very thing....and ombudsman replaces a grand jury....it is a federally appointed prosecutor whi decides what and whom to change....NOT A JURY OF YOUR PEERS IN YOUR COMMUNITY.

Good you say...serves the cops right for being brutal bastards...yeah well Bucko, the might just turn around and apply that same ombudsman bullshit to the next homeowner who shoots down a minority home invader bent on mayhem.

Right now there is a lot of talk among the cops and speculation THEY would be disarmed along with everyone else....MAYBE DISARMED BY THE FEDS FIRST....Lots of cops are gun owners besides their duty weapon...what would happen (they think out loud) if they were forced to turn in all their firearms privately owned and forced to surrender their duty weapon after their shift was over only to retrieve it again when reporting for duty....at the personal okay of their immediate commander/precinct Capt etc....

The police also knew these were law abiding citizens. These were not the type of people who put the police's lives in danger every day. These are the type of people who build civilizations not loot and burn them down. The police realize this, they know the difference. OUR GOVERNMENT DOES NOT! To take away our weapons, out government will need an army of thugs.

Quote from: s3779m on December 20, 2014, 03:26:14 AM
The police also knew these were law abiding citizens. These were not the type of people who put the police's lives in danger every day. These are the type of people who build civilizations not loot and burn them down. The police realize this, they know the difference. OUR GOVERNMENT DOES NOT! To take away our weapons, out government will need an army of thugs.

Very true.

Billy made some great observations.  It really is a lot of work to arrest somebody- searches, paperwork etc.  Plus there is no room in the jails and the government would just release them anyway.  That would be a waste of the officers time.

I come from a police background and currently work with sworn officers.  Most of them are conservative and will keep me up on where the best ammo sales are and such.  A couple are always asking me if we have enough ammo, have I been practicing with my "new" shotgun, and am I ready for the "war" that is to come.

Toy