What Single Issue Would Prevent You From Voting for the Next Prez?

Started by Yawn, January 31, 2013, 05:39:24 PM

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TowardLiberty

#105
Quote from: Solar on February 03, 2013, 09:40:03 AM
Nice dodge, now explain how your Utopia will deal with such events.

Let me say this, to you, Solar.

If you are hedging your bets that this is something I can't explain, and is some form of "utopia," that I merely have faith in.. then that is a bet that I myself would be unwilling to take, if I were you.

Think back to our other discussions on this issue. Think back to the paragraphs and paragraphs of explanation I have typed out to you, and the command of the customary law literature that I have demonstrated.

Then think to the economics, finance and ethical debates we have had, and the complex arguments you have seen me make there in.

It is sunday, I have the day off and it is a beautiful day outside.

There are a million and one things I could be doing.

Think about that, before you put too much stock in the notion that I can't explain or argue this point.

Out of all people, you should know me better than that!

I would be hesitant to doubt my ability to prattle on at length about legal systems, economic system, moral systems...

You might say, this is what I do.

kramarat

Quote from: TowardLiberty on February 03, 2013, 09:32:20 AM
Sounds like you are judging the merits of a concept you are pretty unsure about.

You know what they say about "assumptions."

Much like liberalism, your ideal world relies on the concept that all people are inherently "good". They are not.

Because of that realization, conservatives are bashed and spit upon on a daily basis.

We could start your world tomorrow; if not for the human capacity of pure nastiness and evil.

Solar

Quote from: TowardLiberty on February 03, 2013, 10:12:06 AM
Let me say this, to you, Solar.

If you are hedging your bets that this is something I can't explain, and is some form of "utopia," that I merely have faith in.. then that is a bet that I myself would be unwilling to take, if I were you.

Think back to our other discussions on this issue. Think back to the paragraphs and paragraphs of explanation I have typed out to you, and the command of the customary law literature that I have demonstrated.

Then think to the economics, finance and ethical debates we have had, and the complex arguments you have seen me make there in.

It is sunday, I have the day off and it is a beautiful day outside.

There are a million and one things I could be doing.

Think about that, before you put too much stock in the notion that I can't explain or argue this point.

Out of all people, you should know me better than that!

I would be hesitant to doubt my ability to prattle on at length about legal systems, economic system, moral systems...

You might say, this is what I do.
I have no doubt you believe in what you are purporting as a way of life, I on the other hand am trying to understand how you think you can have a civil society, one not based in law with teeth to support it's foundation.
As Kram and I have pointed out, not all people share your concept and as history has proven, idealists never succeed.
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supsalemgr

I like Rush, like to believe I live in "Realville". In my several decades on this planet I have figured there are some things I might like just ain't going happen. When I was in HS I thought how nice it would be if everybody just had all the same stuff. Three summers working on survey crew opened my eyes to what reality is. In my mind, this is why libs are so often prove their way is too idealistic. I think our SS ponzi scheme is a perfect example. It sounded so good 80 years ago when there were 16 workers for every retiree and the life expectancy was below 65. Now there are only 2 workers for every retiree and life expectancy is way beyond 65. Yet the idealistic dems ignore the fact the scheme is finally coming apart.

The point is idealogues are always waiting for the ultimate desired result.
"If you can't run with the big dawgs, stay on the porch!"

kramarat

Quote from: supsalemgr on February 03, 2013, 12:43:23 PM
I like Rush, like to believe I live in "Realville". In my several decades on this planet I have figured there are some things I might like just ain't going happen. When I was in HS I thought how nice it would be if everybody just had all the same stuff. Three summers working on survey crew opened my eyes to what reality is. In my mind, this is why libs are so often prove their way is too idealistic. I think our SS ponzi scheme is a perfect example. It sounded so good 80 years ago when there were 16 workers for every retiree and the life expectancy was below 65. Now there are only 2 workers for every retiree and life expectancy is way beyond 65. Yet the idealistic dems ignore the fact the scheme is finally coming apart.

The point is idealogues are always waiting for the ultimate desired result.

You know what's really sad?

We'll never know if the SS ponzi scheme would have worked. I think it could have, (maybe), but they broke their promise to the PEOPLE, and spent it. :sad:

TowardLiberty

Quote from: kramarat on February 03, 2013, 10:57:31 AM
Much like liberalism, your ideal world relies on the concept that all people are inherently "good". They are not.

You just proved you have no clue about what I am talking about.

Nowhere is this assumption made.

And it is not in liberalism, either.

Quote
Because of that realization, conservatives are bashed and spit upon on a daily basis.

We could start your world tomorrow; if not for the human capacity of pure nastiness and evil.

I hate to break it to you, but this line of attack, while compelling to the laymen, is toothless when you actually begin to look at what I am saying.

I am not saying this to be rude or dodge an argument.

It is the truth.

There is nothing in my views that necessitates a change in human nature.

Nothing.

TowardLiberty

Quote from: Solar on February 03, 2013, 11:27:07 AM
I have no doubt you believe in what you are purporting as a way of life, I on the other hand am trying to understand how you think you can have a civil society, one not based in law with teeth to support it's foundation.
As Kram and I have pointed out, not all people share your concept and as history has proven, idealists never succeed.

Whoever said you could have society without law?

I merely claim you can have law without government.

Really, if we are going to discuss this stuff, you have to know where I am coming from.

Solar

Quote from: TowardLiberty on February 04, 2013, 02:37:30 PM
Whoever said you could have society without law?

I merely claim you can have law without government.

Really, if we are going to discuss this stuff, you have to know where I am coming from.
And this is a failure on my part, how?
If you have some solid evidence that your form of society is functioning today, then post it.
I wouldn't use a reference to the past, that merely evidences it's failure.
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TowardLiberty

Quote from: Solar on February 04, 2013, 02:55:24 PM
And this is a failure on my part, how?
If you have some solid evidence that your form of society is functioning today, then post it.
I wouldn't use a reference to the past, that merely evidences it's failure.

I have explained all of this stuff at least 3 and maybe even 4 times in the past.

On another occasion I have posted the essay by Bob Murphy that makes all of this stuff easy to understand.

And I have posted articles by legal scholar Bruce Benson on the history of customary law.

I can tell from our conversations that you did not read this material nor retain what I had explained in previous conversations.

We start over from zero every time.

It is like we have never had the conversation at all!

TowardLiberty

#114
Quote from: Solar on February 04, 2013, 02:55:24 PM

If you have some solid evidence that your form of society is functioning today, then post it.


You are familiar with the concept of international commercial law?

Commercial law is not enforced by a government (because not state has jurisdiction over foreigners), but by ostracism, agreement, and reciprocity.
Quote

I wouldn't use a reference to the past, that merely evidences it's failure.

Democracy failed in the past, in the Greek city states and it is in use today, and failing again.

This statement you have made here is actually quite naive.

A civilization can be overwhelmed by a stronger civilization and this can either be related or unrelated to its legal system.

There is no a priori reason to assume a customary law society was over run because of its customary legal system.

In fact, the reverse is often claimed regarding private law Ireland.

Solar

Quote from: TowardLiberty on February 04, 2013, 02:59:46 PM
I have explained all of this stuff at least 3 and maybe even 4 times in the past.

On another occasion I have posted the essay by Bob Murphy that makes all of this stuff easy to understand.

And I have posted articles by legal scholar Bruce Benson on the history of customary law.

I can tell from our conversations that you did not read this material nor retain what I had explained in previous conversations.

We start over from zero every time.

It is like we have never had the conversation at all!
I remember the conversation, though it must have made much of an impression.
Though I do remember pointing out what you propose is a mkt based idea, and in a mkt based society fines carry a heavy cost towards compliance.
But what happens when murder takes place, fine the individual?

But feel free to show just how well this system worked in the past, or is presently.

TL, don't get me wrong, I wish this system were feasible, it would be phenomenal,but human nature simply goes against the principal that all can agree to do the right thing.
Coups would quickly arise as bantering groups vie for power, feuds are inevitable, it's what people do.

Maybe instead of theorizing, or rather, dreaming of a better tomorrow, we all try and fix today's problem.
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Yawn

That's the problem with Socialists and pure Libertarians (but only pure on SOCIAL issues). They don't understand human nature or the human heart. Most people take advantage if they can. People seek power over others. It's in the nature of Man. That's why the Founders saw the need to list GOD-Given rights that neither government nor individuals can usurp. The ONLY reason for the existence of the Federal Government is to protect those rights. It has no other legitimate purpose.

TowardLiberty

Quote from: Yawn on February 04, 2013, 06:11:32 PM
That's the problem with Socialists and pure Libertarians (but only pure on SOCIAL issues). They don't understand human nature or the human heart. Most people take advantage if they can. People seek power over others. It's in the nature of Man. That's why the Founders saw the need to list GOD-Given rights that neither government nor individuals can usurp. The ONLY reason for the existence of the Federal Government is to protect those rights. It has no other legitimate purpose.

Libertarians understand that truth better than anyone.

Hence their opposition to the creation of an entity with the legal right to use force.

Hobbes had it wrong!

TowardLiberty

Quote from: Solar on February 04, 2013, 03:17:05 PM
I remember the conversation, though it must have made much of an impression.
Though I do remember pointing out what you propose is a mkt based idea, and in a mkt based society fines carry a heavy cost towards compliance.
But what happens when murder takes place, fine the individual?

But feel free to show just how well this system worked in the past, or is presently.

TL, don't get me wrong, I wish this system were feasible, it would be phenomenal,but human nature simply goes against the principal that all can agree to do the right thing.
Coups would quickly arise as bantering groups vie for power, feuds are inevitable, it's what people do.

Maybe instead of theorizing, or rather, dreaming of a better tomorrow, we all try and fix today's problem.

Before you can judge the feasibility of a system you have to comprehend it, understand it and possess it.

We are still working on getting there.

Solar

Quote from: TowardLiberty on February 04, 2013, 06:25:57 PM
Before you can judge the feasibility of a system you have to comprehend it, understand it and possess it.

We are still working on getting there.
The closest thing I can think of that worked for just about ever, is the hawala system of banking, but even that is backed by a political system disguised as a Religion.
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