Author Topic: What Single Issue Would Prevent You From Voting for the Next Prez?  (Read 2455 times)

Offline Shooterman

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Re: What Single Issue Would Prevent You From Voting for the Next Prez?
« Reply #45 on: February 02, 2013, 07:16:17 AM »
TL, as one that has seen the transformational growth of a young man from an early admirer and determinant to be an Austrian, I am going to say this. You are full of shit. Life does mot need your approval, it does require your participation.

The pure anarchy you propose can only exist in a vacuum. Even the old loners that would go into the mountains to trap and hunt, ( anarchists in their own way ) still had to fight for survival and not just against the elements, but others who would readily take their lives daily. By not participating, their survival rate was low.

You take pride in being an Anarchist, yet your survival depends not wholly upon your own prowess, but that of others as well. Von Mises certainly participated in the system, as did Rothbard, and the other myriad Austrian economists.

You are a hypocrite. The very act of participating in a political forum belies your contention that you refuse to participate in the system. As for hoping to convert others, you are pissing into a roaring gale and will only get piss all over you.

I despise the system as it has evolved, but I also recognize I am still a part of it, maybe in a minor way, but still a participant whether I like the results or not. Withdrawing from society, and sticking one's head into the sand is not conducive to converting anyone to an anarchist point of view.

Make not mistake, Obama, as the titular head of government is every much the enemy, as the state. The government is the state.

Freedom is restraint of government and government can never be restrained by secluding one's self in a dark place and crying , Nah! Nah! Nah! 
There's no ticks like Polyticks-bloodsuckers all Davy Crockett 1786-1836

Yankees are like castor oil. Even a small dose is bad.


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Offline kramarat

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Re: What Single Issue Would Prevent You From Voting for the Next Prez?
« Reply #46 on: February 02, 2013, 08:13:50 AM »

I have one of those as one of my best friends.  He's getting so inane that after 25 years, I've told my wife that one more remark and I'm actually at the point that I'd just walk away from the friendship.


His wife calls him Jimmy Hoffa since he refuses to buy anything but a FORD even though she hates their vehicles.   He praises Local 3 the Electrical Workers Union and then in the next breath complains that because of their policies he retired early which makes no sense.

And no matter what facts you throw at him...he votes Democrat down the line.  I really can't take people like him anymore.


There is a great deal of truth concerning the dangers of the low info voter.  They're the ones destroying the country more than the politicians.  Why?  Because they are the ones returning the same losers to power election after election.  Case in point...Obama.

If he's a friend of yours, just talk about other stuff besides politics. I've got friends that refuse to see the truth, but it doesn't make them bad people. We just stay away from politics.

Offline Turks

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Re: What Single Issue Would Prevent You From Voting for the Next Prez?
« Reply #47 on: February 02, 2013, 08:16:00 AM »
If he's a friend of yours, just talk about other stuff besides politics. I've got friends that refuse to see the truth, but it doesn't make them bad people. We just stay away from politics.

My wife tells me that all the time but the funny thing is that he's the one that usually starts with the "politics".  I'm just not going to let him get away with repeating DNC talking points. 

Offline kramarat

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Re: What Single Issue Would Prevent You From Voting for the Next Prez?
« Reply #48 on: February 02, 2013, 08:20:54 AM »
TL, as one that has seen the transformational growth of a young man from an early admirer and determinant to be an Austrian, I am going to say this. You are full of shit. Life does mot need your approval, it does require your participation.

The pure anarchy you propose can only exist in a vacuum. Even the old loners that would go into the mountains to trap and hunt, ( anarchists in their own way ) still had to fight for survival and not just against the elements, but others who would readily take their lives daily. By not participating, their survival rate was low.

You take pride in being an Anarchist, yet your survival depends not wholly upon your own prowess, but that of others as well. Von Mises certainly participated in the system, as did Rothbard, and the other myriad Austrian economists.

You are a hypocrite. The very act of participating in a political forum belies your contention that you refuse to participate in the system. As for hoping to convert others, you are pissing into a roaring gale and will only get piss all over you.

I despise the system as it has evolved, but I also recognize I am still a part of it, maybe in a minor way, but still a participant whether I like the results or not. Withdrawing from society, and sticking one's head into the sand is not conducive to converting anyone to an anarchist point of view.

Make not mistake, Obama, as the titular head of government is every much the enemy, as the state. The government is the state.

Freedom is restraint of government and government can never be restrained by secluding one's self in a dark place and crying , Nah! Nah! Nah!


Well said!!!! :thumbsup:

Lots of common sense stuff on this site, but I can't find anything about the benefits of dropping out. They appear to be fully engaged.

http://mises.org/

Online Solar

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Re: What Single Issue Would Prevent You From Voting for the Next Prez?
« Reply #49 on: February 02, 2013, 08:23:35 AM »
TL, as one that has seen the transformational growth of a young man from an early admirer and determinant to be an Austrian, I am going to say this. You are full of shit. Life does mot need your approval, it does require your participation.

The pure anarchy you propose can only exist in a vacuum. Even the old loners that would go into the mountains to trap and hunt, ( anarchists in their own way ) still had to fight for survival and not just against the elements, but others who would readily take their lives daily. By not participating, their survival rate was low.

You take pride in being an Anarchist, yet your survival depends not wholly upon your own prowess, but that of others as well. Von Mises certainly participated in the system, as did Rothbard, and the other myriad Austrian economists.

You are a hypocrite. The very act of participating in a political forum belies your contention that you refuse to participate in the system. As for hoping to convert others, you are pissing into a roaring gale and will only get piss all over you.

I despise the system as it has evolved, but I also recognize I am still a part of it, maybe in a minor way, but still a participant whether I like the results or not. Withdrawing from society, and sticking one's head into the sand is not conducive to converting anyone to an anarchist point of view.

Make not mistake, Obama, as the titular head of government is every much the enemy, as the state. The government is the state.

Freedom is restraint of government and government can never be restrained by secluding one's self in a dark place and crying , Nah! Nah! Nah!
That was my point as well.
I have to say I like TL, but sadly his anger is his misunderstanding of the world around him, it's never been ideal to anyone, which is why libs pursue a fairytale Utopian world, yet unattainable on any level.
We all hate politics, but politics by it's very nature is a pursuit of power, and it behooves all of us to fight to contain the monster that is Government.
Checking out does nothing but empower the monster in it's pursual to wield dangerously over the people.
Koolaid is for kids, TEA is for adults

Offline kramarat

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Re: What Single Issue Would Prevent You From Voting for the Next Prez?
« Reply #50 on: February 02, 2013, 08:30:48 AM »
That was my point as well.
I have to say I like TL, but sadly his anger is his misunderstanding of the world around him, it's never been ideal to anyone, which is why libs pursue a fairytale Utopian world, yet unattainable on any level.
We all hate politics, but politics by it's very nature is a pursuit of power, and it behooves all of us to fight to contain the monster that is Government.
Checking out does nothing but empower the monster in it's pursual to wield dangerously over the people.

I think TL's assertion that he's disengaged, is greatly exaggerated. He might hate the game, but his posts indicate that he's into it up to his neck.....................just like the rest of us. :tounge:

Offline TowardLiberty

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Re: What Single Issue Would Prevent You From Voting for the Next Prez?
« Reply #51 on: February 02, 2013, 08:32:31 AM »
Maybe so, but not participating doesn't do any good.


I would argue it does.

It is the only thing that does do any good- along with other forms of peaceful non-compliance.
Quote

That's BS anyway. You're participating, just by being on this forum. I doubt you'll win any converts to anarcism, but most of what you say seems to align with basic conservatism. Or maybe it's just me agreeing with a lot of libertarianism.

I am not participating in the political association.

I never said I wouldn't participate in the exchange of ideas.
Only the individual thinks. Only the individual reasons. Only the individual acts. Ludwig von Mises

Offline TowardLiberty

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Re: What Single Issue Would Prevent You From Voting for the Next Prez?
« Reply #52 on: February 02, 2013, 08:36:41 AM »
Wasn't when I was born, and just because it was in your time is no reason to quit fighting.

Unless you were alive before the 1920s, it indeed was.

Quote
Do you merely roll over quite as easily after a break in and say"oh well, it was happening long before I was born, I refuse to recognize it by participating"?
You are in this country as a citizen, you have a responsibility to effect change as a citizen enjoying certain freedoms granted you under it's protection.

Merely checking out and not fighting is an extremely selfish move, much like a family farm struggling to feed itself, you refuse to work the farm because you hate the seed packaging company, so you refuse to work with the rest harvesting.
Yet you expect to share in the food because you took the higher ground claiming warrior status as an anarchist?

Think about that for a moment, here you are sharing in the Rights and Freedoms our Fore Fathers fought for, yet refuse to continue to fight because the enemy is winning?

I share in none of that.

My rights have nothing at all to do with the government, the founders or any man made document.

You dont realize my point: I am fighting the system in a way that I argue is even more effective than yours.

By participating in the political process you actually play right into the hand of the entity you are trying to defeat.

A couple quotes by √Čtienne de la Bo√©tie that capture my motives:

"I do not ask that you place hands upon the tyrant to topple him over," he wrote, "but simply that you support him no longer; then you will behold him, like a great Colossus whose pedestal has been pulled away, fall of his own weight and break in pieces."

"Resolve to serve no more, and you are at once freed."
Only the individual thinks. Only the individual reasons. Only the individual acts. Ludwig von Mises

Online Solar

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Re: What Single Issue Would Prevent You From Voting for the Next Prez?
« Reply #53 on: February 02, 2013, 08:36:50 AM »
I would argue it does.

It is the only thing that does do any good- along with other forms of peaceful non-compliance.
I am not participating in the political association.

I never said I wouldn't participate in the exchange of ideas.
You can still institute change at the lower levels, by backing those of like mind into entry level office.
It's what the Tea party is all about, making change at the ground level.
Koolaid is for kids, TEA is for adults

Offline kramarat

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Re: What Single Issue Would Prevent You From Voting for the Next Prez?
« Reply #54 on: February 02, 2013, 08:48:36 AM »
I would argue it does.

It is the only thing that does do any good- along with other forms of peaceful non-compliance.
I am not participating in the political association.

I never said I wouldn't participate in the exchange of ideas.


Interesting........

Kind of like using nonparticipation to fight a cause that has no clear objective, and can never be won, or even gain traction.

Cool! :wink:

http://www.anarchism.net/anarchism_anarchismandpoliticsinhistory.htm

Offline TowardLiberty

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Re: What Single Issue Would Prevent You From Voting for the Next Prez?
« Reply #55 on: February 02, 2013, 08:54:52 AM »
TL, as one that has seen the transformational growth of a young man from an early admirer and determinant to be an Austrian, I am going to say this. You are full of shit. Life does mot need your approval, it does require your participation.

The pure anarchy you propose can only exist in a vacuum. Even the old loners that would go into the mountains to trap and hunt, ( anarchists in their own way ) still had to fight for survival and not just against the elements, but others who would readily take their lives daily. By not participating, their survival rate was low.

You take pride in being an Anarchist, yet your survival depends not wholly upon your own prowess, but that of others as well. Von Mises certainly participated in the system, as did Rothbard, and the other myriad Austrian economists.

You are a hypocrite. The very act of participating in a political forum belies your contention that you refuse to participate in the system. As for hoping to convert others, you are pissing into a roaring gale and will only get piss all over you.

I despise the system as it has evolved, but I also recognize I am still a part of it, maybe in a minor way, but still a participant whether I like the results or not. Withdrawing from society, and sticking one's head into the sand is not conducive to converting anyone to an anarchist point of view.

Make not mistake, Obama, as the titular head of government is every much the enemy, as the state. The government is the state.

Freedom is restraint of government and government can never be restrained by secluding one's self in a dark place and crying , Nah! Nah! Nah!

With all due respect, Shooterman, you could make these points in a much more civil manner.

I will refrain from addressing you in the same manner.

I will address your main points, starting from the top and working my way down. Let me know if I leave anything out or miss something you thought was a strong point.

First, thanks for the kind words about transformational growth. I have to assume this is sincere.

Now, on to the claim that life needs my approval.

Actually, you are wrong here. It does.

As a rational moral agent, I am morally responsible for my actions. So when I find that certain actions are morally wrong, it is on me to stop them. To be a moral person I need to be able to logically defend all of my actions.

I can't do that with participation in the political process- not even close.

So "life" does not need my approval, but my actions do need to be defendable. Hence my anarchism.

Regarding my "participation in life," I have not made the first claim about sitting out "life." I am not talking of bowing out of society, life, or anything else voluntarily agreed to.

I am simply not going to participate in those acts that I feel are violent, immoral or in some fashion harmful to me or society.
 
I do not propose "pure" anarchy..

I propose ordered anarchy. And this concept is entirely realistic.

We know from history that the legal system, money, language and property rights were not originally the product of any government or authority.

They were private goods. And better for it.

Yes, my survival depends on my ability to produce, and yes, Rothbard and Mises both participated in society.

And at the same time, Rothbard was an anarchist and Mises believed government in its best form would let it's citizens individually secede.

So let's make sure we know exactly what is being discussed here.

We are talking about ordered anarchism, rather than some primitive social isolation.

Now, on to the hypocrite charge.

So the charge is that sense I participate in the exchange of ideas I am involved in the political process.

Well, you are mistaken. I don't vote, I don't support candidates and I have no political group I wish to rally people behind.

If participating in the exchange of ideas is to consent to the political system then Rothbard was a hypocrite for writing all those books on anarchy. Same with Spooner, Tucker, Molinari, Proudhon.. etc

Surely, such a charge collapses into absurdity..

Simply speaking your mind, even on political topics, is not necessarily acting politically.

The rest of the post really doesn't lay any whoopers at my feet, so excuse me if it doesnt get the same love.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2013, 09:01:41 AM by TowardLiberty »
Only the individual thinks. Only the individual reasons. Only the individual acts. Ludwig von Mises

Offline TowardLiberty

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Re: What Single Issue Would Prevent You From Voting for the Next Prez?
« Reply #56 on: February 02, 2013, 08:57:29 AM »
Well said!!!! :thumbsup:

Lots of common sense stuff on this site, but I can't find anything about the benefits of dropping out. They appear to be fully engaged.

http://mises.org/


They are anarchists and classical liberals. Most are anarchists.

I spent a week there in the summer of 2012. Probably one of the best weeks of my life!

Read some daily articles by Hoppe, Block, Murphy, Rockwell, Rothbard and you will see what I mean about their anarchism.

The Mises Institute is the premier institution for scholarly research in the tradition of Austrian economics and libertarian anarchism.

They are a diverse group- not all are anarchists. But all of them believe in sound money, economic freedom, individual liberty and the rule of law.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2013, 09:02:04 AM by TowardLiberty »
Only the individual thinks. Only the individual reasons. Only the individual acts. Ludwig von Mises

Offline TowardLiberty

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Re: What Single Issue Would Prevent You From Voting for the Next Prez?
« Reply #57 on: February 02, 2013, 09:09:28 AM »
I think TL's assertion that he's disengaged, is greatly exaggerated. He might hate the game, but his posts indicate that he's into it up to his neck.....................just like the rest of us. :tounge:
Well, lets be very clear about what I am saying.

I never claimed to disengage from society or from the exchange of ideas.

I am just not going to participate in the political system- no voting, no campaigning, no political donations, and generally, no support for the government at all.

Rather, I say, "burn the whole thing down."

And I say this with the goal of having a more rational, peaceful and ultimately, social, pattern of living together.

This is all about how to best live together, as free individuals.
Only the individual thinks. Only the individual reasons. Only the individual acts. Ludwig von Mises

Offline kramarat

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Re: What Single Issue Would Prevent You From Voting for the Next Prez?
« Reply #58 on: February 02, 2013, 09:09:53 AM »
They are anarchists and classical liberals. Most are anarchists.

I spent a week there in the summer of 2012. Probably one of the best weeks of my life!

Read some daily articles by Hoppe, Block, Murphy, Rockwell, Rothbard and you will see what I mean about their anarchism.

The Mises Institute is the premier institution for scholarly research in the tradition of Austrian economics and libertarian anarchism.

They are a diverse group- not all are anarchists. But all of them believe in sound money, economic freedom, individual liberty and the rule of law.

I wouldn't be surprised to find constitutional conservatives there.

Maybe it's my imagination, but there seems to be a substantial amount of overlapping principles with, say..........The Heritage Foundation.

Offline TowardLiberty

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Re: What Single Issue Would Prevent You From Voting for the Next Prez?
« Reply #59 on: February 02, 2013, 09:13:20 AM »
You can still institute change at the lower levels, by backing those of like mind into entry level office.
It's what the Tea party is all about, making change at the ground level.

I have no desire to institute any changes, at any level.

In a free society, we make decisions only for ourselves.

Only the individual thinks. Only the individual reasons. Only the individual acts. Ludwig von Mises

 

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