Conservative Political Forum

General Category => Political Discussion and Debate => Topic started by: Yawn on January 31, 2013, 05:39:24 PM

Title: What Single Issue Would Prevent You From Voting for the Next Prez?
Post by: Yawn on January 31, 2013, 05:39:24 PM
Just curious if you have a single issue that would prevent you from voting for the GOP candidate? For me, it would be if I don't believe he'd appoint Justices to the Supreme Court that would overturn Roe v Wade. Next on my list is GOP supporters of amnesty for the new special class--the illegal Mexican voter. My two favorites are Rubio and Rand Paul, but both support amnesty for these "special" Mexicans. I may not vote if this is the best we can do.
Title: Re: What Single Issue Would Prevent You From Voting for the Next Prez?
Post by: Byteryder on January 31, 2013, 06:56:45 PM
Quote from: Yawn on January 31, 2013, 05:39:24 PM
Just curious if you have a single issue that would prevent you from voting for the GOP candidate? For me, it would be if I don't believe he'd appoint Justices to the Supreme Court that would overturn Roe v Wade. Next on my list is GOP supporters of amnesty for the new special class--the illegal Mexican voter. My two favorites are Rubio and Rand Paul, but both support amnesty for these "special" Mexicans. I may not vote if this is the best we can do.

The point here is how hard will this hypothetical President move on these issues?  They all talk a good line, but they dont all take it as The Word of God.
Title: Re: What Single Issue Would Prevent You From Voting for the Next Prez?
Post by: Yawn on February 01, 2013, 02:23:11 AM
Problem is, they both are already ON RECORD that they support amnesty for ILLEGAL INVADERS. I will have a hard time even voting for them, let alone "supporting" them. Wasn't that every establishment RINO'S problem--a lack of enthusiastic support from the Republican base?
Title: Re: What Single Issue Would Prevent You From Voting for the Next Prez?
Post by: The Stranger on February 01, 2013, 03:33:35 AM
Anti Gun, Chris Christie.
Title: Re: What Single Issue Would Prevent You From Voting for the Next Prez?
Post by: kramarat on February 01, 2013, 03:48:08 AM
Yeah. That sitting out elections is working out wonderfully.

The people that stayed home, really showed the GOP who's boss.

Assuming we still have only two parties, nothing would prevent me from voting for the GOP candidate.

I'd rather be on here bitching about a RINO, than living in fear of a socialist.
Title: Re: What Single Issue Would Prevent You From Voting for the Next Prez?
Post by: Turks on February 01, 2013, 04:42:19 AM
Quote from: The Stranger on February 01, 2013, 03:33:35 AM
Anti Gun, Chris Christie.


I'm not sure.  I say not voting is a vote for the opposition but having said that, I would never vote for Christie. 
Title: Re: What Single Issue Would Prevent You From Voting for the Next Prez?
Post by: Reality on February 01, 2013, 05:16:25 AM
I agree with "kramarat". 

As conservatives we give more thought to what our candidate supports but that indivdual doesn't always match lock step to what I want and/or believe. Dems line up behind thier candiate no matter what and therein lies the difference in now having their guy for his second term and not having our guy as the POTUS. 

Is, and/or, will our candiate in 2016 match my position on all the issues on the table at that time.  I doubt it but I'm convinced whoever the dem opponent is will come nowhere near my position on the issues.  There are some core beliefs of the dems that I cannot support and those core beliefs will never go away. 

Supossedly there were pubs, and/or conservatives, that disagreed with Romney and decided to stay home on election day and not support him.  Obvioulsy they did not support Obama but the net effect of their stubborness and failure to vote was a vote for Obama.  Are those people happy with the outcome?  If they aren't they have no one to blame but themselves.
Title: Re: What Single Issue Would Prevent You From Voting for the Next Prez?
Post by: supsalemgr on February 01, 2013, 05:42:53 AM
Quote from: Reality on February 01, 2013, 05:16:25 AM
I agree with "kramarat". 

As conservatives we give more thought to what our candidate supports but that indivdual doesn't always match lock step to what I want and/or believe. Dems line up behind thier candiate no matter what and therein lies the difference in now having their guy for his second term and not having our guy as the POTUS. 

Is, and/or, will our candiate in 2016 match my position on all the issues on the table at that time.  I doubt it but I'm convinced whoever the dem opponent is will come nowhere near my position on the issues.  There are some core beliefs of the dems that I cannot support and those core beliefs will never go away. 

Supossedly there were pubs, and/or conservatives, that disagreed with Romney and decided to stay home on election day and not support him.  Obvioulsy they did not support Obama but the net effect of their stubborness and failure to vote was a vote for Obama.  Are those people happy with the outcome?  If they aren't they have no one to blame but themselves.

I am with Reality 100%. we will never have a candidate we will ever agree with on every issue. My litmus test is to just look at the dem candidate and what they offer. That makes my decision very easy. A non vote is a vote for a lib.
Title: Re: What Single Issue Would Prevent You From Voting for the Next Prez?
Post by: Bowhntr on February 01, 2013, 06:12:23 AM
Reality and sup have nailed it.  I did not support Romney in the primaries but the guy that most agreed with my positions lost and Romney was the candidate up against Obama.  With that said I went and gladly cast my vote for Romney.  No candidate is ever going to match individual issue positions 100%.  However, up against the liberals/democrats a GOP candidate comes much closer to matching mine.
Title: Re: What Single Issue Would Prevent You From Voting for the Next Prez?
Post by: The Stranger on February 01, 2013, 06:30:18 AM
I've never missed a state or fed election  my life. I did not agree with Romney on all issues but voted for him and liked his work ethic and family values so there were Positives over Negatives. But look how hard it was to pull the lever for McCain, Dole and such in the past.
I'm tired of not only the candidates but the stupidity of the Rep party, the infighting which was part of Romney's doom. The lackluster effort to attack the OTHER guy.
It's just where we are at. I liked Newt, I liked Cain but they had no chance and party crushed themselves.
Title: Re: What Single Issue Would Prevent You From Voting for the Next Prez?
Post by: raptor5618 on February 01, 2013, 06:36:01 AM
Nothing would prevent me from voting. I suspect that the Dem candidate will be Obama II so there is no way I would vote for who ever it is.  I do not think I could vote for Christie because while I thought he was for small govt and fiscally conservative as well as willing to do what he said he would do,  his true colors came out and perhaps he is just an egotistical loudmouth.  If the GOP candidate is vowing to focus on social issues I probably would not vote for him. 

I am fine with being against abortions, and thinking that gay marriage should be an issue for the churches to decide.  If they say they even want to eliminate gay unions I might not want to vote for them.  Immigration reform without border security again no vote for the GOP candidate.

As far as abortion goes I think the GOP would be well served if they attacked it in a different way.  If they said that they would change the law to only allow abortions up to the time that a fetus could be born and live.  I know abortions would still be able to be performed but they are able to keep babies alive at an earlier and earlier time than ever before.  I think that technology will advance to where a fetus could be saved at a very early time in the pregnancy making it pretty much illegal.  I think even this is abhorrent to those who believe that abortion is murder and I get that point but I think it is an issue that the Dem's are very good at twisting into a focal issue which it should not be.  Which is my point the GOP should no make this one of its key issues.  It is primarily a moral issue and I think I am a typical independent who wants the govt to stick to protecting us from invasion and from harming each other.   

But if the GOP was all about social issue I probably would vote for the libertarian or constitutional party candidate.   I just think that not voting is allowing the people with a vested interest to control things. If all the people who are disgusted with our politicians of either party still voted it is likely that Obama never would have been president.  We might have Ron Paul instead which is also a bit scary to me mostly because of his views on national defense but our voting apathy in a very real way rewards the politician who basically secures his voting base with goodies he hands out.
Title: Re: What Single Issue Would Prevent You From Voting for the Next Prez?
Post by: Reality on February 01, 2013, 07:27:42 AM
All POTUS candidates carry a "big stick" when they are on the campaign trail but when the winner gets the "let me tell you like it really is briefing" from the out going POTUS, especially in matters relating to foreign policy and military defense, I'm guessing the response is "no shi*, you got to be kidding me". Paul may have sung a different tune when he saw what the real musical score was.

Look at Obammy's "hope and change" BS.  All the hope is still there amd most if not all of his so called change BS hasn't occurred.  GITMO is a good example.  Nope, what you see on the campaign trail is not what you get when the rubber meets the road.  Carter comes close and we know what happened to him.  Reagan made it happen but it took two terms to do it.

Christy is on my shi* list.  His lovein with Obammy and his alligator mouth is over the top.

Title: Re: What Single Issue Would Prevent You From Voting for the Next Prez?
Post by: Shooterman on February 01, 2013, 07:45:49 AM
A question for the 'GOP Candidate At Any Cost Crowd'. Is there any issue that will grab you, other than 'winning' that will prohibit a vote for a PUB Candidate foe President. If there isn't you are a fool ( generic before getting panties twisted )  and if there are, you are a hypocrite for castigating others for what you may do yourself.

I would suggest the Little Vote Fairy doesn't automatically take any vote for other that a GOP Dickhead PUB and place it in a Democrat Dick vote tally.

I will repeat this. If every vote that was cast for a third party instead of McCain in '08, had gone to McCain, the results would not have changed.

Clinging to a dying misfit party such as PUBS will guarantee a further degenerating country.

Morphing parties originally created the regional party known as Republicans. The PUBS are now, have been before, and shall remain in the process of morphing into the Socialist Lite Party.
Title: Re: What Single Issue Would Prevent You From Voting for the Next Prez?
Post by: JustKari on February 01, 2013, 08:19:38 AM
In a lot of ways, I agree with Kram, I am not a single issue voter.  I voted for Romney even when he said he listed his first 15 executive orders, which I hate.  I voted for him even when he talked about starting programs for this and that, while they may have been good ideas, were not fiscally conservative.

Also, the candidates promise is only as good as his/her allies in the congress.  It really does not matter how much Rubio or Paul push immigration, if the house and senate refuse to take up the cause.

If the republicans continue to drift further left though, they will lose my vote.
Title: Re: What Single Issue Would Prevent You From Voting for the Next Prez?
Post by: TowardLiberty on February 01, 2013, 02:00:02 PM
The election itself!

Seeing as though I would never again vote in one.
Title: Re: What Single Issue Would Prevent You From Voting for the Next Prez?
Post by: kramarat on February 01, 2013, 02:09:10 PM
Quote from: TowardLiberty on February 01, 2013, 02:00:02 PM
The election itself!

Seeing as though I would never again vote in one.

Good thinking!!!!

Do me a favor and get the word out, that conservative republicans are behind the entire election process; maybe the libs will boycott the next one. :laugh:
Title: Re: What Single Issue Would Prevent You From Voting for the Next Prez?
Post by: TowardLiberty on February 01, 2013, 02:11:58 PM
Quote from: kramarat on February 01, 2013, 02:09:10 PM
Good thinking!!!!

Do me a favor and get the word out, that conservative republicans are behind the entire election process; maybe the libs will boycott the next one. :laugh:

I wouldnt know how to begin distinguishing them...
Title: Re: What Single Issue Would Prevent You From Voting for the Next Prez?
Post by: kramarat on February 01, 2013, 02:18:33 PM
Quote from: TowardLiberty on February 01, 2013, 02:11:58 PM
I wouldnt know how to begin distinguishing them...

Hang out at Code Pink meetings, coffee shops, and abortion clinics. :biggrin:
Title: Re: What Single Issue Would Prevent You From Voting for the Next Prez?
Post by: TowardLiberty on February 01, 2013, 02:21:21 PM
Quote from: kramarat on February 01, 2013, 02:18:33 PM
Hang out at Code Pink meetings, coffee shops, and abortion clinics. :biggrin:

I guess you're right.

I suppose on the hot button issues the divide is rather clear.

It is only on the business of governing, finance, war and individual liberty that we see such symmetry.
Title: Re: What Single Issue Would Prevent You From Voting for the Next Prez?
Post by: kramarat on February 01, 2013, 02:32:56 PM
Quote from: TowardLiberty on February 01, 2013, 02:21:21 PM
I guess you're right.

I suppose on the hot button issues the divide is rather clear.

It is only on the business of governing, finance, war and individual liberty that we see such symmetry.

Do you consider Rand Paul to be a no go?
Title: Re: What Single Issue Would Prevent You From Voting for the Next Prez?
Post by: TowardLiberty on February 01, 2013, 02:37:57 PM
Quote from: kramarat on February 01, 2013, 02:32:56 PM
Do you consider Rand Paul to be a no go?

As an anarchist I am philosophically against the idea of political leadership.

Leadership in terms of voluntary associations is a completely different beast and one I have no issue with.

So even if I find myself in agreement with the platform of one politco relative to others, the entire enterprise is one I reject so I remain neutral in the matter.

For example, I am a student of Austrian economics and human action, and in many ways I can trace this interest back to the first few times I became aware of the Ron Paul message, sometime around 2006.

And this study has taken me from the partisan mindset we all know so well, to the one rooted in absolute individual liberty and ordered anarchy, that I hold today.

So my views have become even more radical than that of Ron Paul, and I suspect even more so of his son.

Though, I share his perspective on economics, it is on the issue of limited government vs ordered anarchy, where we diverge.
Title: Re: What Single Issue Would Prevent You From Voting for the Next Prez?
Post by: kramarat on February 01, 2013, 02:42:15 PM
Quote from: TowardLiberty on February 01, 2013, 02:37:57 PM
As an anarchist I am philosophically against the idea of political leadership.

Leadership in terms of voluntary associations is a completely different beast and one I have no issue with.

So even if I find myself in agreement with the platform of one politco relative to others, the entire enterprise is one I reject so I remain neutral in the matter.

For example, I am student of Austrian economics and human action, and in many ways I can trace this interest back to the first few times I became aware of the Ron Paul message, sometime around 2006.

And this study has taken me from the partisan mindset we all know so well, to the one rooted in absolute individual liberty and ordered anarchy, that I hold today.

So my views have become even more radical than that of Ron Paul, and I suspect even more so of his son.

Though, I share his perspective on economics, it is on the issue of limited government vs ordered anarchy, where we diverge.

Well, I like ya Liberty; but that dream is just as utopian as the big government socialist dream.

There was a time that it may have worked, but there are simply too many stupid people at this point, to even consider the possibility.
Title: Re: What Single Issue Would Prevent You From Voting for the Next Prez?
Post by: TowardLiberty on February 01, 2013, 02:46:22 PM
Quote from: kramarat on February 01, 2013, 02:42:15 PM
Well, I like ya Liberty; but that dream is just as utopian as the big government socialist dream.

There was a time that it may have worked, but there are simply too many stupid people at this point, to even consider the possibility.

Well on this we must disagree.

I see nothing utopian about it.

Though, I do find the idea that in putting the protection of property and person into the hands of a compulsory monopolist, we should expect efficiency in this realm, or in any other that has been monopolized in such a fashion, to be somewhat utopian.

I would turn Hobbes' argument upside down and claim that the flawed nature of man necessitates decentralized and voluntary forms of decision making, otherwise the incentives are such that men will use others, not as ends, but merely as means.

And then life will be nasty, brutish and short.

(this makes for an interesting topic for a poli sci paper, if anyone needs one!)
Title: Re: What Single Issue Would Prevent You From Voting for the Next Prez?
Post by: JustKari on February 01, 2013, 02:47:13 PM
Quote from: kramarat on February 01, 2013, 02:42:15 PM
Well, I like ya Liberty; but that dream is just as utopian as the big government socialist dream.

There was a time that it may have worked, but there are simply too many stupid people at this point, to even consider the possibility.

I don't know that our idea of governance is any less of a pipe dream, for the same reason.  :sad:
Title: Re: What Single Issue Would Prevent You From Voting for the Next Prez?
Post by: TowardLiberty on February 01, 2013, 02:56:17 PM
Quote from: JustKari on February 01, 2013, 02:47:13 PM
I don't know that our idea of governance is any less of a pipe dream, for the same reason.  :sad:

Touche.

And the point is made again in the quote in your sig.
Title: Re: What Single Issue Would Prevent You From Voting for the Next Prez?
Post by: kramarat on February 01, 2013, 03:02:04 PM
Quote from: JustKari on February 01, 2013, 02:47:13 PM
I don't know that our idea of governance is any less of a pipe dream, for the same reason.  :sad:

Good point! :wink:
Title: Re: What Single Issue Would Prevent You From Voting for the Next Prez?
Post by: BILLY Defiant on February 01, 2013, 03:13:29 PM
National defense/security issues....like Giving aide and weapons like f-16 fighters and tanks to the enemy.

Title: Re: What Single Issue Would Prevent You From Voting for the Next Prez?
Post by: Charliemyboy on February 01, 2013, 04:04:34 PM
I just want to be sure he isn't a Muslim.  That's a deal breaker for me.
Title: Re: What Single Issue Would Prevent You From Voting for the Next Prez?
Post by: BILLY Defiant on February 01, 2013, 04:07:30 PM
Quote from: Charliemyboy on February 01, 2013, 04:04:34 PM
I just want to be sure he isn't a Muslim.  That's a deal breaker for me.


....or a Marxist...


Billy
Title: Re: What Single Issue Would Prevent You From Voting for the Next Prez?
Post by: Yawn on February 01, 2013, 05:16:49 PM
So Jeb Bush vs Hillary Clinton.  You'll all VOTE for Bush?
Title: Re: What Single Issue Would Prevent You From Voting for the Next Prez?
Post by: Solar on February 01, 2013, 05:20:55 PM
Quote from: TowardLiberty on February 01, 2013, 02:37:57 PM
As an anarchist I am philosophically against the idea of political leadership.

Leadership in terms of voluntary associations is a completely different beast and one I have no issue with.

So even if I find myself in agreement with the platform of one politco relative to others, the entire enterprise is one I reject so I remain neutral in the matter.

For example, I am a student of Austrian economics and human action, and in many ways I can trace this interest back to the first few times I became aware of the Ron Paul message, sometime around 2006.

And this study has taken me from the partisan mindset we all know so well, to the one rooted in absolute individual liberty and ordered anarchy, that I hold today.

So my views have become even more radical than that of Ron Paul, and I suspect even more so of his son.

Though, I share his perspective on economics, it is on the issue of limited government vs ordered anarchy, where we diverge.
Sorry TL, but you are taking the path of the pacifist, as in, I refuse to fight, regardless of what the enemy does to my family.

Husein is the enemy of the country, (our family), and holding a gun to our very way of life, yet you claim to take the higher ground because you are opposed to both sides?
Those are the words of a Coward, not a Patriot. We are at war for our very way of life in our fight against Marxism, and you want to sit it out over principal?

I don't care how you explain it away, that thinking is completely inexcusable!
Find another country if this onesucks that bad.
Title: Re: What Single Issue Would Prevent You From Voting for the Next Prez?
Post by: TowardLiberty on February 01, 2013, 05:42:23 PM
Quote from: Solar on February 01, 2013, 05:20:55 PM
Sorry TL, but you are taking the path of the pacifist, as in, I refuse to fight, regardless of what the enemy does to my family.

Quite the opposite.

I am saying the entire thing is illegitimate and I will not legitimate it by taking part in the farce.

Quote

Husein is the enemy of the country, (our family), and holding a gun to our very way of life, yet you claim to take the higher ground because you are opposed to both sides?


The enemy is not Obama.

The enemy is the state. Obama is just the latest dupe to hold one of it's offices.

Quote
Those are the words of a Coward, not a Patriot. We are at war for our very way of life in our fight against Marxism, and you want to sit it out over principal?

I don't care how you explain it away, that thinking is completely inexcusable!
Find another country if this onesucks that bad.

I don't understand your reasoning.

By participating in politics you give legitimacy to the very process which puts people like Obama in power.

There is no real difference between these clowns. It is all a popularity contest.

No offense- but you are too "in the matrix" to see it for what it is.
Title: Re: What Single Issue Would Prevent You From Voting for the Next Prez?
Post by: kramarat on February 01, 2013, 05:53:43 PM
Quote from: TowardLiberty on February 01, 2013, 05:42:23 PM
Quite the opposite.

I am saying the entire thing is illegitimate and I will not legitimate it by taking part in the farce.

The enemy is not Obama.

The enemy is the state. Obama is just the latest dupe to hold one of it's offices.

I don't understand your reasoning.

By participating in politics you give legitimacy to the very process which puts people like Obama in power.

There is no real difference between these clowns. It is all a popularity contest.

No offense- but you are too "in the matrix" to see it for what it is.

Very noble, but what do you hope to accomplish by not participating?

I'm sure that you're aware that any freedom you have left will continue to be taken.

Both sides may suck, but neither one cares if you starve yourself to death in protest of the status quo.

Will you die, proud of the fact that you checked out?
Title: Re: What Single Issue Would Prevent You From Voting for the Next Prez?
Post by: kramarat on February 01, 2013, 06:03:00 PM
The Matrix is what it is. A refusal to acknowledge it, doesn't make it cease to exist.

A refusal to fight against it, would suggest that a particular individual is far deeper entrenched than he can possibly imagine.
Title: Re: What Single Issue Would Prevent You From Voting for the Next Prez?
Post by: TowardLiberty on February 01, 2013, 06:10:26 PM
Quote from: kramarat on February 01, 2013, 05:53:43 PM
Very noble, but what do you hope to accomplish by not participating?

I'm sure that you're aware that any freedom you have left will continue to be taken.

Both sides may suck, but neither one cares if you starve yourself to death in protest of the status quo.

Will you die, proud of the fact that you checked out?

By not participating and encouraging others to do the same I hope to weaken the legitimacy of the political association and strengthen that of private associations.

Am I be proud that I saw politics for what it is- I guess. Probably so.
Title: Re: What Single Issue Would Prevent You From Voting for the Next Prez?
Post by: TowardLiberty on February 01, 2013, 06:13:31 PM
Quote from: kramarat on February 01, 2013, 06:03:00 PM
The Matrix is what it is. A refusal to acknowledge it, doesn't make it cease to exist.

A refusal to fight against it, would suggest that a particular individual is far deeper entrenched than he can possibly imagine.

No doubt.

Those are true words.

And one can not fight against it by participating in it and supporting it or believing in it.

Title: Re: What Single Issue Would Prevent You From Voting for the Next Prez?
Post by: kramarat on February 01, 2013, 06:25:05 PM
Quote from: TowardLiberty on February 01, 2013, 06:13:31 PM
No doubt.

Those are true words.

And one can not fight against it by participating in it and supporting it or believing in it.

Which is the role of the constitutional conservative.

A person does not have to like the game, to participate in it.

If the weak kneed GOP is capable of constantly caving in to socialists, they will surely cave in to conservative pressure. It requires turning up the heat, not running away from it.

The battle not fought, can never be won.
Title: Re: What Single Issue Would Prevent You From Voting for the Next Prez?
Post by: Solar on February 01, 2013, 06:37:35 PM
Quote from: TowardLiberty on February 01, 2013, 05:42:23 PM
Quite the opposite.

I am saying the entire thing is illegitimate and I will not legitimate it by taking part in the farce.

The enemy is not Obama.

The enemy is the state. Obama is just the latest dupe to hold one of it's offices.

I don't understand your reasoning.

By participating in politics you give legitimacy to the very process which puts people like Obama in power.

There is no real difference between these clowns. It is all a popularity contest.

No offense- but you are too "in the matrix" to see it for what it is.
The same words is what I hear from pacifists not wanting to partake in a war involving their country, because they don't believe either side is right, despite the fact that they may lose their lives and country.

And yes, the left is the enemy, they want to take a Capitalist society and turn it into a state controlled Mkt. and that isn't enough to maybe wake you up and see your pacifism might be the wrong course?
What will you do when you no longer have the Right to vote, claim it's not your fault, you refused to fight vote?
Title: Re: What Single Issue Would Prevent You From Voting for the Next Prez?
Post by: TowardLiberty on February 01, 2013, 09:03:37 PM
Quote from: kramarat on February 01, 2013, 06:25:05 PM
Which is the role of the constitutional conservative.

A person does not have to like the game, to participate in it.

If the weak kneed GOP is capable of constantly caving in to socialists, they will surely cave in to conservative pressure. It requires turning up the heat, not running away from it.

The battle not fought, can never be won.

I don't even know what any of that means.

Really, I don't.
Title: Re: What Single Issue Would Prevent You From Voting for the Next Prez?
Post by: TowardLiberty on February 01, 2013, 09:06:56 PM
Quote from: Solar on February 01, 2013, 06:37:35 PM
The same words is what I hear from pacifists not wanting to partake in a war involving their country, because they don't believe either side is right, despite the fact that they may lose their lives and country.

And yes, the left is the enemy, they want to take a Capitalist society and turn it into a state controlled Mkt. and that isn't enough to maybe wake you up and see your pacifism might be the wrong course?
What will you do when you no longer have the Right to vote, claim it's not your fault, you refused to fight vote?

What capitalist society?

Nothing has changed.

The financial system has been subverted before we even popped onto the scene.

And war is a racket that no one should support.

There is a philosophic divide here, I would argue, that is larger than the one separating the democrats from the republicans.
Title: Re: What Single Issue Would Prevent You From Voting for the Next Prez?
Post by: kramarat on February 02, 2013, 04:37:23 AM
Quote from: TowardLiberty on February 01, 2013, 09:06:56 PM
What capitalist society?

Nothing has changed.

The financial system has been subverted before we even popped onto the scene.

And war is a racket that no one should support.

There is a philosophic divide here, I would argue, that is larger than the one separating the democrats from the republicans.

Maybe so, but not participating doesn't do any good.

That's BS anyway. You're participating, just by being on this forum. I doubt you'll win any converts to anarcism, but most of what you say seems to align with basic conservatism. Or maybe it's just me agreeing with a lot of libertarianism.
Title: Re: What Single Issue Would Prevent You From Voting for the Next Prez?
Post by: Solar on February 02, 2013, 04:49:39 AM
Quote from: TowardLiberty on February 01, 2013, 09:06:56 PM
What capitalist society?

Nothing has changed.

The financial system has been subverted before we even popped onto the scene.

And war is a racket that no one should support.

There is a philosophic divide here, I would argue, that is larger than the one separating the democrats from the republicans.
Wasn't when I was born, and just because it was in your time is no reason to quit fighting.
Do you merely roll over quite as easily after a break in and say"oh well, it was happening long before I was born, I refuse to recognize it by participating"?
You are in this country as a citizen, you have a responsibility to effect change as a citizen enjoying certain freedoms granted you under it's protection.

Merely checking out and not fighting is an extremely selfish move, much like a family farm struggling to feed itself, you refuse to work the farm because you hate the seed packaging company, so you refuse to work with the rest harvesting.
Yet you expect to share in the food because you took the higher ground claiming warrior status as an anarchist?

Think about that for a moment, here you are sharing in the Rights and Freedoms our Fore Fathers fought for, yet refuse to continue to fight because the enemy is winning?
Title: Re: What Single Issue Would Prevent You From Voting for the Next Prez?
Post by: kramarat on February 02, 2013, 05:17:57 AM
Quote from: Solar on February 02, 2013, 04:49:39 AM
Wasn't when I was born, and just because it was in your time is no reason to quit fighting.
Do you merely roll over quite as easily after a break in and say"oh well, it was happening long before I was born, I refuse to recognize it by participating"?
You are in this country as a citizen, you have a responsibility to effect change as a citizen enjoying certain freedoms granted you under it's protection.

Merely checking out and not fighting is an extremely selfish move, much like a family farm struggling to feed itself, you refuse to work the farm because you hate the seed packaging company, so you refuse to work with the rest harvesting.
Yet you expect to share in the food because you took the higher ground claiming warrior status as an anarchist?

Think about that for a moment, here you are sharing in the Rights and Freedoms our Fore Fathers fought for, yet refuse to continue to fight because the enemy is winning?

I've got a brother with the same attitude.
He's got a small organic farm in NM, and keeps bees.
Refuses to participate in any political process, and yet stays upset about the crap that Monsanto, (friends of Obama), are getting away with. It's one of the things that I agree with libs on. That company pulls some outrageous shit, and is actively working to shut down the small farmer.
Title: Re: What Single Issue Would Prevent You From Voting for the Next Prez?
Post by: The Stranger on February 02, 2013, 06:20:56 AM
The non voting it's not my government so I don't care folks are the one that cry the loudest and longest. I unfortunately have a nephew like this and I am not proud to say I can't stand him. He complains endlessly about the process but belittles those who vote or are involved. Here's an even better one he is a UNION employee who would jump off a bridge if they told him to. Put the UNION down in front of him and he will go crazy though. Go figure.
Title: Re: What Single Issue Would Prevent You From Voting for the Next Prez?
Post by: Turks on February 02, 2013, 06:56:01 AM
Quote from: The Stranger on February 02, 2013, 06:20:56 AM
The non voting it's not my government so I don't care folks are the one that cry the loudest and longest. I unfortunately have a nephew like this and I am not proud to say I can't stand him. He complains endlessly about the process but belittles those who vote or are involved. Here's an even better one he is a UNION employee who would jump off a bridge if they told him to. Put the UNION down in front of him and he will go crazy though. Go figure.


I have one of those as one of my best friends.  He's getting so inane that after 25 years, I've told my wife that one more remark and I'm actually at the point that I'd just walk away from the friendship.


His wife calls him Jimmy Hoffa since he refuses to buy anything but a FORD even though she hates their vehicles.   He praises Local 3 the Electrical Workers Union and then in the next breath complains that because of their policies he retired early which makes no sense.

And no matter what facts you throw at him...he votes Democrat down the line.  I really can't take people like him anymore.


There is a great deal of truth concerning the dangers of the low info voter.  They're the ones destroying the country more than the politicians.  Why?  Because they are the ones returning the same losers to power election after election.  Case in point...Obama.
Title: Re: What Single Issue Would Prevent You From Voting for the Next Prez?
Post by: Shooterman on February 02, 2013, 07:16:17 AM
TL, as one that has seen the transformational growth of a young man from an early admirer and determinant to be an Austrian, I am going to say this. You are full of shit. Life does mot need your approval, it does require your participation.

The pure anarchy you propose can only exist in a vacuum. Even the old loners that would go into the mountains to trap and hunt, ( anarchists in their own way ) still had to fight for survival and not just against the elements, but others who would readily take their lives daily. By not participating, their survival rate was low.

You take pride in being an Anarchist, yet your survival depends not wholly upon your own prowess, but that of others as well. Von Mises certainly participated in the system, as did Rothbard, and the other myriad Austrian economists.

You are a hypocrite. The very act of participating in a political forum belies your contention that you refuse to participate in the system. As for hoping to convert others, you are pissing into a roaring gale and will only get piss all over you.

I despise the system as it has evolved, but I also recognize I am still a part of it, maybe in a minor way, but still a participant whether I like the results or not. Withdrawing from society, and sticking one's head into the sand is not conducive to converting anyone to an anarchist point of view.

Make not mistake, Obama, as the titular head of government is every much the enemy, as the state. The government is the state.

Freedom is restraint of government and government can never be restrained by secluding one's self in a dark place and crying , Nah! Nah! Nah! 
Title: Re: What Single Issue Would Prevent You From Voting for the Next Prez?
Post by: kramarat on February 02, 2013, 08:13:50 AM
Quote from: Turks on February 02, 2013, 06:56:01 AM

I have one of those as one of my best friends.  He's getting so inane that after 25 years, I've told my wife that one more remark and I'm actually at the point that I'd just walk away from the friendship.


His wife calls him Jimmy Hoffa since he refuses to buy anything but a FORD even though she hates their vehicles.   He praises Local 3 the Electrical Workers Union and then in the next breath complains that because of their policies he retired early which makes no sense.

And no matter what facts you throw at him...he votes Democrat down the line.  I really can't take people like him anymore.


There is a great deal of truth concerning the dangers of the low info voter.  They're the ones destroying the country more than the politicians.  Why?  Because they are the ones returning the same losers to power election after election.  Case in point...Obama.

If he's a friend of yours, just talk about other stuff besides politics. I've got friends that refuse to see the truth, but it doesn't make them bad people. We just stay away from politics.
Title: Re: What Single Issue Would Prevent You From Voting for the Next Prez?
Post by: Turks on February 02, 2013, 08:16:00 AM
Quote from: kramarat on February 02, 2013, 08:13:50 AM
If he's a friend of yours, just talk about other stuff besides politics. I've got friends that refuse to see the truth, but it doesn't make them bad people. We just stay away from politics.

My wife tells me that all the time but the funny thing is that he's the one that usually starts with the "politics".  I'm just not going to let him get away with repeating DNC talking points. 
Title: Re: What Single Issue Would Prevent You From Voting for the Next Prez?
Post by: kramarat on February 02, 2013, 08:20:54 AM
Quote from: Shooterman on February 02, 2013, 07:16:17 AM
TL, as one that has seen the transformational growth of a young man from an early admirer and determinant to be an Austrian, I am going to say this. You are full of shit. Life does mot need your approval, it does require your participation.

The pure anarchy you propose can only exist in a vacuum. Even the old loners that would go into the mountains to trap and hunt, ( anarchists in their own way ) still had to fight for survival and not just against the elements, but others who would readily take their lives daily. By not participating, their survival rate was low.

You take pride in being an Anarchist, yet your survival depends not wholly upon your own prowess, but that of others as well. Von Mises certainly participated in the system, as did Rothbard, and the other myriad Austrian economists.

You are a hypocrite. The very act of participating in a political forum belies your contention that you refuse to participate in the system. As for hoping to convert others, you are pissing into a roaring gale and will only get piss all over you.

I despise the system as it has evolved, but I also recognize I am still a part of it, maybe in a minor way, but still a participant whether I like the results or not. Withdrawing from society, and sticking one's head into the sand is not conducive to converting anyone to an anarchist point of view.

Make not mistake, Obama, as the titular head of government is every much the enemy, as the state. The government is the state.

Freedom is restraint of government and government can never be restrained by secluding one's self in a dark place and crying , Nah! Nah! Nah!

Well said!!!! :thumbsup:

Lots of common sense stuff on this site, but I can't find anything about the benefits of dropping out. They appear to be fully engaged.

http://mises.org/ (http://mises.org/)
Title: Re: What Single Issue Would Prevent You From Voting for the Next Prez?
Post by: Solar on February 02, 2013, 08:23:35 AM
Quote from: Shooterman on February 02, 2013, 07:16:17 AM
TL, as one that has seen the transformational growth of a young man from an early admirer and determinant to be an Austrian, I am going to say this. You are full of shit. Life does mot need your approval, it does require your participation.

The pure anarchy you propose can only exist in a vacuum. Even the old loners that would go into the mountains to trap and hunt, ( anarchists in their own way ) still had to fight for survival and not just against the elements, but others who would readily take their lives daily. By not participating, their survival rate was low.

You take pride in being an Anarchist, yet your survival depends not wholly upon your own prowess, but that of others as well. Von Mises certainly participated in the system, as did Rothbard, and the other myriad Austrian economists.

You are a hypocrite. The very act of participating in a political forum belies your contention that you refuse to participate in the system. As for hoping to convert others, you are pissing into a roaring gale and will only get piss all over you.

I despise the system as it has evolved, but I also recognize I am still a part of it, maybe in a minor way, but still a participant whether I like the results or not. Withdrawing from society, and sticking one's head into the sand is not conducive to converting anyone to an anarchist point of view.

Make not mistake, Obama, as the titular head of government is every much the enemy, as the state. The government is the state.

Freedom is restraint of government and government can never be restrained by secluding one's self in a dark place and crying , Nah! Nah! Nah!
That was my point as well.
I have to say I like TL, but sadly his anger is his misunderstanding of the world around him, it's never been ideal to anyone, which is why libs pursue a fairytale Utopian world, yet unattainable on any level.
We all hate politics, but politics by it's very nature is a pursuit of power, and it behooves all of us to fight to contain the monster that is Government.
Checking out does nothing but empower the monster in it's pursual to wield dangerously over the people.
Title: Re: What Single Issue Would Prevent You From Voting for the Next Prez?
Post by: kramarat on February 02, 2013, 08:30:48 AM
Quote from: Solar on February 02, 2013, 08:23:35 AM
That was my point as well.
I have to say I like TL, but sadly his anger is his misunderstanding of the world around him, it's never been ideal to anyone, which is why libs pursue a fairytale Utopian world, yet unattainable on any level.
We all hate politics, but politics by it's very nature is a pursuit of power, and it behooves all of us to fight to contain the monster that is Government.
Checking out does nothing but empower the monster in it's pursual to wield dangerously over the people.

I think TL's assertion that he's disengaged, is greatly exaggerated. He might hate the game, but his posts indicate that he's into it up to his neck.....................just like the rest of us. :tounge:
Title: Re: What Single Issue Would Prevent You From Voting for the Next Prez?
Post by: TowardLiberty on February 02, 2013, 08:32:31 AM
Quote from: kramarat on February 02, 2013, 04:37:23 AM
Maybe so, but not participating doesn't do any good.


I would argue it does.

It is the only thing that does do any good- along with other forms of peaceful non-compliance.
Quote

That's BS anyway. You're participating, just by being on this forum. I doubt you'll win any converts to anarcism, but most of what you say seems to align with basic conservatism. Or maybe it's just me agreeing with a lot of libertarianism.

I am not participating in the political association.

I never said I wouldn't participate in the exchange of ideas.
Title: Re: What Single Issue Would Prevent You From Voting for the Next Prez?
Post by: TowardLiberty on February 02, 2013, 08:36:41 AM
Quote from: Solar on February 02, 2013, 04:49:39 AM
Wasn't when I was born, and just because it was in your time is no reason to quit fighting.

Unless you were alive before the 1920s, it indeed was.

Quote
Do you merely roll over quite as easily after a break in and say"oh well, it was happening long before I was born, I refuse to recognize it by participating"?
You are in this country as a citizen, you have a responsibility to effect change as a citizen enjoying certain freedoms granted you under it's protection.

Merely checking out and not fighting is an extremely selfish move, much like a family farm struggling to feed itself, you refuse to work the farm because you hate the seed packaging company, so you refuse to work with the rest harvesting.
Yet you expect to share in the food because you took the higher ground claiming warrior status as an anarchist?

Think about that for a moment, here you are sharing in the Rights and Freedoms our Fore Fathers fought for, yet refuse to continue to fight because the enemy is winning?

I share in none of that.

My rights have nothing at all to do with the government, the founders or any man made document.

You dont realize my point: I am fighting the system in a way that I argue is even more effective than yours.

By participating in the political process you actually play right into the hand of the entity you are trying to defeat.

A couple quotes by Étienne de la Boétie that capture my motives:

"I do not ask that you place hands upon the tyrant to topple him over," he wrote, "but simply that you support him no longer; then you will behold him, like a great Colossus whose pedestal has been pulled away, fall of his own weight and break in pieces."

"Resolve to serve no more, and you are at once freed."
Title: Re: What Single Issue Would Prevent You From Voting for the Next Prez?
Post by: Solar on February 02, 2013, 08:36:50 AM
Quote from: TowardLiberty on February 02, 2013, 08:32:31 AM
I would argue it does.

It is the only thing that does do any good- along with other forms of peaceful non-compliance.
I am not participating in the political association.

I never said I wouldn't participate in the exchange of ideas.
You can still institute change at the lower levels, by backing those of like mind into entry level office.
It's what the Tea party is all about, making change at the ground level.
Title: Re: What Single Issue Would Prevent You From Voting for the Next Prez?
Post by: kramarat on February 02, 2013, 08:48:36 AM
Quote from: TowardLiberty on February 02, 2013, 08:32:31 AM
I would argue it does.

It is the only thing that does do any good- along with other forms of peaceful non-compliance.
I am not participating in the political association.

I never said I wouldn't participate in the exchange of ideas.

Interesting........

Kind of like using nonparticipation to fight a cause that has no clear objective, and can never be won, or even gain traction.

Cool! :wink:

http://www.anarchism.net/anarchism_anarchismandpoliticsinhistory.htm (http://www.anarchism.net/anarchism_anarchismandpoliticsinhistory.htm)
Title: Re: What Single Issue Would Prevent You From Voting for the Next Prez?
Post by: TowardLiberty on February 02, 2013, 08:54:52 AM
Quote from: Shooterman on February 02, 2013, 07:16:17 AM
TL, as one that has seen the transformational growth of a young man from an early admirer and determinant to be an Austrian, I am going to say this. You are full of shit. Life does mot need your approval, it does require your participation.

The pure anarchy you propose can only exist in a vacuum. Even the old loners that would go into the mountains to trap and hunt, ( anarchists in their own way ) still had to fight for survival and not just against the elements, but others who would readily take their lives daily. By not participating, their survival rate was low.

You take pride in being an Anarchist, yet your survival depends not wholly upon your own prowess, but that of others as well. Von Mises certainly participated in the system, as did Rothbard, and the other myriad Austrian economists.

You are a hypocrite. The very act of participating in a political forum belies your contention that you refuse to participate in the system. As for hoping to convert others, you are pissing into a roaring gale and will only get piss all over you.

I despise the system as it has evolved, but I also recognize I am still a part of it, maybe in a minor way, but still a participant whether I like the results or not. Withdrawing from society, and sticking one's head into the sand is not conducive to converting anyone to an anarchist point of view.

Make not mistake, Obama, as the titular head of government is every much the enemy, as the state. The government is the state.

Freedom is restraint of government and government can never be restrained by secluding one's self in a dark place and crying , Nah! Nah! Nah!

With all due respect, Shooterman, you could make these points in a much more civil manner.

I will refrain from addressing you in the same manner.

I will address your main points, starting from the top and working my way down. Let me know if I leave anything out or miss something you thought was a strong point.

First, thanks for the kind words about transformational growth. I have to assume this is sincere.

Now, on to the claim that life needs my approval.

Actually, you are wrong here. It does.

As a rational moral agent, I am morally responsible for my actions. So when I find that certain actions are morally wrong, it is on me to stop them. To be a moral person I need to be able to logically defend all of my actions.

I can't do that with participation in the political process- not even close.

So "life" does not need my approval, but my actions do need to be defendable. Hence my anarchism.

Regarding my "participation in life," I have not made the first claim about sitting out "life." I am not talking of bowing out of society, life, or anything else voluntarily agreed to.

I am simply not going to participate in those acts that I feel are violent, immoral or in some fashion harmful to me or society.

I do not propose "pure" anarchy..

I propose ordered anarchy. And this concept is entirely realistic.

We know from history that the legal system, money, language and property rights were not originally the product of any government or authority.

They were private goods. And better for it.

Yes, my survival depends on my ability to produce, and yes, Rothbard and Mises both participated in society.

And at the same time, Rothbard was an anarchist and Mises believed government in its best form would let it's citizens individually secede.

So let's make sure we know exactly what is being discussed here.

We are talking about ordered anarchism, rather than some primitive social isolation.

Now, on to the hypocrite charge.

So the charge is that sense I participate in the exchange of ideas I am involved in the political process.

Well, you are mistaken. I don't vote, I don't support candidates and I have no political group I wish to rally people behind.

If participating in the exchange of ideas is to consent to the political system then Rothbard was a hypocrite for writing all those books on anarchy. Same with Spooner, Tucker, Molinari, Proudhon.. etc

Surely, such a charge collapses into absurdity..

Simply speaking your mind, even on political topics, is not necessarily acting politically.

The rest of the post really doesn't lay any whoopers at my feet, so excuse me if it doesnt get the same love.
Title: Re: What Single Issue Would Prevent You From Voting for the Next Prez?
Post by: TowardLiberty on February 02, 2013, 08:57:29 AM
Quote from: kramarat on February 02, 2013, 08:20:54 AM
Well said!!!! :thumbsup:

Lots of common sense stuff on this site, but I can't find anything about the benefits of dropping out. They appear to be fully engaged.

http://mises.org/ (http://mises.org/)

They are anarchists and classical liberals. Most are anarchists.

I spent a week there in the summer of 2012. Probably one of the best weeks of my life!

Read some daily articles by Hoppe, Block, Murphy, Rockwell, Rothbard and you will see what I mean about their anarchism.

The Mises Institute is the premier institution for scholarly research in the tradition of Austrian economics and libertarian anarchism.

They are a diverse group- not all are anarchists. But all of them believe in sound money, economic freedom, individual liberty and the rule of law.
Title: Re: What Single Issue Would Prevent You From Voting for the Next Prez?
Post by: TowardLiberty on February 02, 2013, 09:09:28 AM
Quote from: kramarat on February 02, 2013, 08:30:48 AM
I think TL's assertion that he's disengaged, is greatly exaggerated. He might hate the game, but his posts indicate that he's into it up to his neck.....................just like the rest of us. :tounge:
Well, lets be very clear about what I am saying.

I never claimed to disengage from society or from the exchange of ideas.

I am just not going to participate in the political system- no voting, no campaigning, no political donations, and generally, no support for the government at all.

Rather, I say, "burn the whole thing down."

And I say this with the goal of having a more rational, peaceful and ultimately, social, pattern of living together.

This is all about how to best live together, as free individuals.
Title: Re: What Single Issue Would Prevent You From Voting for the Next Prez?
Post by: kramarat on February 02, 2013, 09:09:53 AM
Quote from: TowardLiberty on February 02, 2013, 08:57:29 AM
They are anarchists and classical liberals. Most are anarchists.

I spent a week there in the summer of 2012. Probably one of the best weeks of my life!

Read some daily articles by Hoppe, Block, Murphy, Rockwell, Rothbard and you will see what I mean about their anarchism.

The Mises Institute is the premier institution for scholarly research in the tradition of Austrian economics and libertarian anarchism.

They are a diverse group- not all are anarchists. But all of them believe in sound money, economic freedom, individual liberty and the rule of law.

I wouldn't be surprised to find constitutional conservatives there.

Maybe it's my imagination, but there seems to be a substantial amount of overlapping principles with, say..........The Heritage Foundation.
Title: Re: What Single Issue Would Prevent You From Voting for the Next Prez?
Post by: TowardLiberty on February 02, 2013, 09:13:20 AM
Quote from: Solar on February 02, 2013, 08:36:50 AM
You can still institute change at the lower levels, by backing those of like mind into entry level office.
It's what the Tea party is all about, making change at the ground level.

I have no desire to institute any changes, at any level.

In a free society, we make decisions only for ourselves.

Title: Re: What Single Issue Would Prevent You From Voting for the Next Prez?
Post by: TowardLiberty on February 02, 2013, 09:18:39 AM
Quote from: kramarat on February 02, 2013, 08:48:36 AM
Interesting........

Kind of like using nonparticipation to fight a cause that has no clear objective, and can never be won, or even gain traction.

Cool! :wink:

http://www.anarchism.net/anarchism_anarchismandpoliticsinhistory.htm (http://www.anarchism.net/anarchism_anarchismandpoliticsinhistory.htm)

Something like that.

The idea being that the fight between the parties is itself a rouse and that only by seeing it for what it is, and rejecting them both, can we hope to achieve real freedom.

I would be from the camp that is referred to as the individualist anarchist, by the article.

We do not see eye to eye, not even a little bit, with the collectivist anarchist.

Here is a Mises article by Robert Murphy on just what we mean by the term.

http://mises.org/daily/1778 (http://mises.org/daily/1778)
Title: Re: What Single Issue Would Prevent You From Voting for the Next Prez?
Post by: TowardLiberty on February 02, 2013, 09:21:14 AM
Quote from: kramarat on February 02, 2013, 09:09:53 AM
I wouldn't be surprised to find constitutional conservatives there.

Maybe it's my imagination, but there seems to be a substantial amount of overlapping principles with, say..........The Heritage Foundation.

Oh, there are.

Judge Napolitano is a regular speaker and supporter.

(He is also an anarchist- but that was something said in private)

Yes, there is a lot of overlap. But Heritage and Cato are more in the world of politics. They do policy research.

The Mises folks are in the world of economic theory, ethics and philosophy. They are more scholars than technocrats.
Title: Re: What Single Issue Would Prevent You From Voting for the Next Prez?
Post by: kramarat on February 02, 2013, 09:26:29 AM
Quote from: TowardLiberty on February 02, 2013, 09:09:28 AM
Well, lets be very clear about what I am saying.

I never claimed to disengage from society or from the exchange of ideas.

I am just not going to participate in the political system- no voting, no campaigning, no political donations, and generally, no support for the government at all.

Rather, I say, "burn the whole thing down."

And I say this with the goal of having a more rational, peaceful and ultimately, social, pattern of living together.

This is all about how to best live together, as free individuals.

That is completely naive.

Just to start, it would have to assume that millions of individuals that have come to fully depend on government; could just stop.

I saw a documentary, where a film crew was allowed into North Korea, and could interview people. The degree to which these people had been conditioned by government, and their absolute devotion to the same, was astounding. We see that here also.

As bad as a lot of aspects of it are, to burn it down would result in complete mayhem.
Title: Re: What Single Issue Would Prevent You From Voting for the Next Prez?
Post by: TowardLiberty on February 02, 2013, 09:36:43 AM
Quote from: kramarat on February 02, 2013, 09:26:29 AM
That is completely naive.

Well, we can characterize it anyway you want, but just be clear on what I am saying and what I am not.

I am not talking about disengaging from society, just from the state.

Quote

Just to start, it would have to assume that millions of individuals that have come to fully depend on government; could just stop.

Well, they could.

Just like people used to living large just stop when the money runs out.

If the check doesn't come in the mail they dont eat.

A hungry belly is a powerful motivator.

Dont ever discount the power of the urge to survive.

People are lazy and spoiled. They are entitled.

But that is because they can be.

It is not a permanently fixed dynamic.

A starving welfare queen will find the strength to get a job. It will come from inside, deep down.
Quote

I saw a documentary, where a film crew was allowed into North Korea, and could interview people. The degree to which these people had been conditioned by government, and their absolute devotion to the same, was astounding. We see that here also.

Certainly.

It exists most clearly in partisan politics- where people are conditioned to root for one side and hate the other, oblivious to the fact that they are nearly the same teams.
Quote

As bad as a lot of aspects of it are, to burn it down would result in complete mayhem.

I disagree.

To refuse to burn it down will result in complete mayhem.

Title: Re: What Single Issue Would Prevent You From Voting for the Next Prez?
Post by: kramarat on February 02, 2013, 09:48:05 AM
Quote from: TowardLiberty on February 02, 2013, 09:36:43 AM
Well, we can characterize it anyway you want, but just be clear on what I am saying and what I am not.

I am not talking about disengaging from society, just from the state.

Well, they could.

Just like people used to living large just stop when the money runs out.

If the check doesn't come in the mail they dont eat.

A hungry belly is a powerful motivator.

Dont ever discount the power of the urge to survive.

People are lazy and spoiled. They are entitled.

But that is because they can be.

It is not a permanently fixed dynamic.

A starving welfare queen will find the strength to get a job. It will come from inside, deep down.
Certainly.

It exists most clearly in partisan politics- where people are conditioned to root for one side and hate the other, oblivious to the fact that they are nearly the same teams.
I disagree.

To refuse to burn it down will result in complete mayhem.

Mayhem is coming regardless, it's just a matter of when.

You have a lot more faith in the people that rely on government, than I do. They already firmly believe that they have a right to other people's money. If the inflow is suddenly stopped, they will attempt to get it by force, not go get a job.
Title: Re: What Single Issue Would Prevent You From Voting for the Next Prez?
Post by: Solar on February 02, 2013, 09:55:08 AM
Quote from: TowardLiberty on February 02, 2013, 09:13:20 AM
I have no desire to institute any changes, at any level.

In a free society, we make decisions only for ourselves.
Even free societies have Govt. Like it or not, not everyone agrees on what is right and what is wrong.
What you are striving for is what extreme libs strive for, Utopia, and the very concept is unachievable.
Title: Re: What Single Issue Would Prevent You From Voting for the Next Prez?
Post by: TowardLiberty on February 02, 2013, 09:59:57 AM
Quote from: kramarat on February 02, 2013, 09:48:05 AM
Mayhem is coming regardless, it's just a matter of when.

You have a lot more faith in the people that rely on government, than I do. They already firmly believe that they have a right to other people's money. If the inflow is suddenly stopped, they will attempt to get it by force, not go get a job.

If they attempt to get it by force they will have more stress, labor, pain and sacrifice in store for them than anything found in a job.
Title: Re: What Single Issue Would Prevent You From Voting for the Next Prez?
Post by: TowardLiberty on February 02, 2013, 10:01:26 AM
Quote from: Solar on February 02, 2013, 09:55:08 AM
Even free societies have Govt. Like it or not, not everyone agrees on what is right and what is wrong.
What you are striving for is what extreme libs strive for, Utopia, and the very concept is unachievable.

I would argue government is incompatible with freedom- in an elementary way.

I am striving for utopia?

That is news to me..

That doesn't hold any water for me. It is just words.

No logic behind it.

Though, belief in the possibility of limited government is utopian, as history shows.
Title: Re: What Single Issue Would Prevent You From Voting for the Next Prez?
Post by: kramarat on February 02, 2013, 10:12:44 AM
Quote from: TowardLiberty on February 02, 2013, 09:59:57 AM
If they attempt to get it by force they will have more stress, labor, pain and sacrifice in store for them than anything found in a job.

It would be fun to run a hypothetical scenario, in which all government was eliminated, as per your dream.

Personally, I believe we would quickly descend into warring tribes. Human history pretty much bears this out.
Title: Re: What Single Issue Would Prevent You From Voting for the Next Prez?
Post by: TowardLiberty on February 02, 2013, 10:26:26 AM
Quote from: kramarat on February 02, 2013, 10:12:44 AM


Personally, I believe we would quickly descend into warring tribes. Human history pretty much bears this out.

Must be a history I am unfamiliar with.

The existence of law, money, language and society itself implies the opposite. These were not the creations of any authority.

Rather, they come from voluntary associations and an invisible hand.

Indeed, your point of view leaves us without an explanation for society at all.

I will side with Mises. Society is what happens when people realize that they are better off producing in cooperation, under a division of labor, than in social isolation.

Society is rational.

It does not need to be forced on to us.
Title: Re: What Single Issue Would Prevent You From Voting for the Next Prez?
Post by: Solar on February 02, 2013, 10:26:44 AM
Quote from: TowardLiberty on February 02, 2013, 10:01:26 AM
I would argue government is incompatible with freedom- in an elementary way.

I am striving for utopia?

That is news to me..

That doesn't hold any water for me. It is just words.

No logic behind it.

Though, belief in the possibility of limited government is utopian, as history shows.
It sounded like you were arguing against any Govt. to me.
Title: Re: What Single Issue Would Prevent You From Voting for the Next Prez?
Post by: TowardLiberty on February 02, 2013, 10:29:50 AM
Quote from: Solar on February 02, 2013, 10:26:44 AM
It sounded like you were arguing against any Govt. to me.

Well, I am.

And in this way- I am arguing against a utopia, not for it.

It is my contention that Hobbes was wrong.

He had it completely backward.
Title: Re: What Single Issue Would Prevent You From Voting for the Next Prez?
Post by: kramarat on February 02, 2013, 10:37:48 AM
Quote from: TowardLiberty on February 02, 2013, 10:26:26 AM
Must be a history I am unfamiliar with.

The existence of law, money, language and society itself implies the opposite. These were not the creations of any authority.

Rather, they come from voluntary associations and an invisible hand.

Indeed, your point of view leaves us without an explanation for society at all.

I will side with Mises. Society is what happens when people realize that they are better off producing in cooperation, under a division of labor, than in social isolation.

Society is rational.

It does not need to be forced on to us.

Sounds similar to Marxism:

There's another reason why Marxism has something to teach us as we struggle through economic depression, other than its analysis of class struggle. It is in its analysis of economic crisis. In his formidable new tome Less Than Nothing: Hegel and the Shadow of Dialectical Materialism, Slavoj Žižek tries to apply Marxist thought on economic crises to what we're enduring right now. Žižek considers the fundamental class antagonism to be between "use value" and "exchange value".

What's the difference between the two? Each commodity has a use value, he explains, measured by its usefulness in satisfying needs and wants. The exchange value of a commodity, by contrast, is traditionally measured by the amount of labour that goes into making it. Under current capitalism, Žižek argues, exchange value becomes autonomous. "It is transformed into a spectre of self-propelling capital which uses the productive capacities and needs of actual people only as its temporary disposable embodiment. Marx derived his notion of economic crisis from this very gap: a crisis occurs when reality catches up with the illusory self-generating mirage of money begetting more money – this speculative madness cannot go on indefinitely, it has to explode in even more serious crises. The ultimate root of the crisis for Marx is the gap between use and exchange value: the logic of exchange-value follows its own path, its own made dance, irrespective of the real needs of real people."

Title: Re: What Single Issue Would Prevent You From Voting for the Next Prez?
Post by: Solar on February 02, 2013, 10:46:00 AM
Quote from: TowardLiberty on February 02, 2013, 10:29:50 AM
Well, I am.

And in this way- I am arguing against a utopia, not for it.

It is my contention that Hobbes was wrong.

He had it completely backward.
Then you are hoping for a Utopia, for without govt, even the smallest agreed upon Govt, you have democracy, "Mob Rule", whatever the opinion is of the majority, is the current law of the land, of course that would change as does the opinion of man, and a different set of rules would ensue.

Without a defined set of laws/rules agreed upon, you have pure anarchy.
If you decide upon basic rules, then you have formed a rudimentary Govt.
Title: Re: What Single Issue Would Prevent You From Voting for the Next Prez?
Post by: supsalemgr on February 02, 2013, 11:10:45 AM
After reading all these posts it seems to me that TL is looking for a world that does not, or will ever, exist. Totally being free is only available for one who can find a place with no organized structure. Even if one buys 250,000 acres in MT and is self sufficient to the point of never having leave the property he would still be subject to laws of MT. Dropping out means giving up the opportunity to work for realistic freedom as the founding fathers envisioned.
Title: Re: What Single Issue Would Prevent You From Voting for the Next Prez?
Post by: kramarat on February 02, 2013, 11:23:22 AM
Quote from: supsalemgr on February 02, 2013, 11:10:45 AM
After reading all these posts it seems to me that TL is looking for a world that does not, or will ever, exist. Totally being free is only available for one who can find a place with no organized structure. Even if one buys 250,000 acres in MT and is self sufficient to the point of never having leave the property he would still be subject to laws of MT. Dropping out means giving up the opportunity to work for realistic freedom as the founding fathers envisioned.

But he also wants society.

When I pointed out human history, it shows that a lack of cohesive government will never last long. The strong will simply overpower the weak, and implement whatever government and rules that they please. The weak can comply or die.
Title: Re: What Single Issue Would Prevent You From Voting for the Next Prez?
Post by: TowardLiberty on February 02, 2013, 12:21:49 PM
Quote from: kramarat on February 02, 2013, 10:37:48 AM
Sounds similar to Marxism:

There's another reason why Marxism has something to teach us as we struggle through economic depression, other than its analysis of class struggle. It is in its analysis of economic crisis. In his formidable new tome Less Than Nothing: Hegel and the Shadow of Dialectical Materialism, Slavoj Žižek tries to apply Marxist thought on economic crises to what we're enduring right now. Žižek considers the fundamental class antagonism to be between "use value" and "exchange value".

What's the difference between the two? Each commodity has a use value, he explains, measured by its usefulness in satisfying needs and wants. The exchange value of a commodity, by contrast, is traditionally measured by the amount of labour that goes into making it. Under current capitalism, Žižek argues, exchange value becomes autonomous. "It is transformed into a spectre of self-propelling capital which uses the productive capacities and needs of actual people only as its temporary disposable embodiment. Marx derived his notion of economic crisis from this very gap: a crisis occurs when reality catches up with the illusory self-generating mirage of money begetting more money – this speculative madness cannot go on indefinitely, it has to explode in even more serious crises. The ultimate root of the crisis for Marx is the gap between use and exchange value: the logic of exchange-value follows its own path, its own made dance, irrespective of the real needs of real people."


In what way?
Title: Re: What Single Issue Would Prevent You From Voting for the Next Prez?
Post by: TowardLiberty on February 02, 2013, 12:23:08 PM
Quote from: Solar on February 02, 2013, 10:46:00 AM

Without a defined set of laws/rules agreed upon, you have pure anarchy.

True.

I do not support pure anarchy.

Quote
If you decide upon basic rules, then you have formed a rudimentary Govt.

Obviously, that is not true, as we know from history itself, let alone modern institutions, such as international commercial law.
Title: Re: What Single Issue Would Prevent You From Voting for the Next Prez?
Post by: TowardLiberty on February 02, 2013, 12:24:16 PM
Quote from: kramarat on February 02, 2013, 11:23:22 AM
But he also wants society.

When I pointed out human history, it shows that a lack of cohesive government will never last long. The strong will simply overpower the weak, and implement whatever government and rules that they please. The weak can comply or die.

It lasted a long time in Ireland- which is probably how they resisted British colonial aggression for so long.

Title: Re: What Single Issue Would Prevent You From Voting for the Next Prez?
Post by: TowardLiberty on February 02, 2013, 12:26:12 PM
Quote from: supsalemgr on February 02, 2013, 11:10:45 AM
After reading all these posts it seems to me that TL is looking for a world that does not, or will ever, exist. Totally being free is only available for one who can find a place with no organized structure.

Disagree completely.

People can form laws and institutions voluntarily and still be free.

Quote

Even if one buys 250,000 acres in MT and is self sufficient to the point of never having leave the property he would still be subject to laws of MT. Dropping out means giving up the opportunity to work for realistic freedom as the founding fathers envisioned.


This is not about self sufficient.

If anything, it is about a more richer and peaceful society and getting closer to the vision of the founders.
Title: Re: What Single Issue Would Prevent You From Voting for the Next Prez?
Post by: supsalemgr on February 02, 2013, 01:13:03 PM
In all due respect, I think TL is going in circles.
Title: Re: What Single Issue Would Prevent You From Voting for the Next Prez?
Post by: TowardLiberty on February 02, 2013, 01:14:56 PM
Quote from: supsalemgr on February 02, 2013, 01:13:03 PM
In all due respect, I think TL is going in circles.

Add it to the list!  :cool:

It has been said I am a utopian, a hypocrite and that I think like a Marxist.

So why not say I am going in circles, too?

At some point, there comes the business of actually trying to understand what it is I am saying- if only for the purpose of defeating it.

But I really doubt that anyone here, other than myself, actually understands what I am meaning by the term ordered anarchy, customary law or anarcho-capitalism.

These might as well be words from a foreign language.
Title: Re: What Single Issue Would Prevent You From Voting for the Next Prez?
Post by: Yawn on February 02, 2013, 04:35:46 PM
TL, explain how your society would function without any form of government. How would you function without police (as much as I despise most of them).  Vigilantism?
Title: Re: What Single Issue Would Prevent You From Voting for the Next Prez?
Post by: TowardLiberty on February 02, 2013, 04:46:52 PM
Quote from: Yawn on February 02, 2013, 04:35:46 PM
TL, explain how your society would function without any form of government. How would you function without police (as much as I despise most of them).  Vigilantism?

The same way international commercial law is enforced today- reciprocal relationships, insurance and ostracism.

We are talking some pretty heady stuff, here.

Rather than clumsily stumble through this argument myself, I would rather point you to an already written and well thought out essay on the matter.

www.mises.org/books/chaostheory.pdf (http://www.mises.org/books/chaostheory.pdf)

This is the routine introduction point for explaining how society works without a state.

Judicial functions, police, insurance and national defense are considered.
Title: Re: What Single Issue Would Prevent You From Voting for the Next Prez?
Post by: Yawn on February 02, 2013, 05:01:02 PM
I will read it a little later. I think you're advocating Anarchy because you grew up under a very oppressive form of Godvernment the Founders never intended. They did intend government though. George Washington warned that government was like a "beast" or a "fire." It is a useful and necessary tool, but if you overfeed it, it will quickly get out of control and DEMAND even more until it consumes all. We're at that point now. We also need a military, but NOT as it is today.
Title: Re: What Single Issue Would Prevent You From Voting for the Next Prez?
Post by: Solar on February 02, 2013, 05:02:24 PM
Quote from: TowardLiberty on February 02, 2013, 12:23:08 PM
True.

I do not support pure anarchy.

Obviously, that is not true, as we know from history itself, let alone modern institutions, such as international commercial law.
Pure semantics! The rule of law is a form of Govt, you may call it anything you like, but when you set rules, you are establishing govt.
I know we've beaten this horse into the ground, but setting rules is merely governing by another name.
Title: Re: What Single Issue Would Prevent You From Voting for the Next Prez?
Post by: Reality on February 02, 2013, 05:53:34 PM
TL said "In a free society, we make decisions only for ourselves."

Good luck!

Title: Re: What Single Issue Would Prevent You From Voting for the Next Prez?
Post by: Reality on February 02, 2013, 07:26:36 PM
.. added, Tl, since your version of the way it should be relies solely on total agreement, I take it we all go to the ice cream store and accept the only flavor available; vanilla.  Utopia, yes!  Real world, no!
Title: Re: What Single Issue Would Prevent You From Voting for the Next Prez?
Post by: walkstall on February 02, 2013, 07:50:45 PM
Quote from: Reality on February 02, 2013, 05:53:34 PM
TL said "In a free society, we make decisions only for ourselves."

Good luck!

Even in a free society. I would not let a kid play with a loaded gun.   But that's just me. 
Title: Re: What Single Issue Would Prevent You From Voting for the Next Prez?
Post by: TowardLiberty on February 02, 2013, 09:25:19 PM
Quote from: Solar on February 02, 2013, 05:02:24 PM
Pure semantics! The rule of law is a form of Govt, you may call it anything you like, but when you set rules, you are establishing govt.
I know we've beaten this horse into the ground, but setting rules is merely governing by another name.
I will never cease to claim you are dead wrong on this issue.

A government is a very specific relationship.

The word doesn't just mean whatever we want it to.

If there is no coercive authority, then there is no government. Pure and simple.
Title: Re: What Single Issue Would Prevent You From Voting for the Next Prez?
Post by: TowardLiberty on February 02, 2013, 09:26:20 PM
Quote from: Reality on February 02, 2013, 07:26:36 PM
.. added, Tl, since your version of the way it should be relies solely on total agreement, I take it we all go to the ice cream store and accept the only flavor available; vanilla.  Utopia, yes!  Real world, no!

Sounds like a straw man to me.

Show me where I said anything about "total agreement."
Title: Re: What Single Issue Would Prevent You From Voting for the Next Prez?
Post by: TowardLiberty on February 02, 2013, 09:26:49 PM
Quote from: walkstall on February 02, 2013, 07:50:45 PM
Even in a free society. I would not let a kid play with a loaded gun.   But that's just me.

And you are not alone in that.

Not even close.
Title: Re: What Single Issue Would Prevent You From Voting for the Next Prez?
Post by: TowardLiberty on February 02, 2013, 09:27:59 PM
Quote from: Yawn on February 02, 2013, 05:01:02 PM
I will read it a little later. I think you're advocating Anarchy because you grew up under a very oppressive form of Godvernment the Founders never intended. They did intend government though. George Washington warned that government was like a "beast" or a "fire." It is a useful and necessary tool, but if you overfeed it, it will quickly get out of control and DEMAND even more until it consumes all. We're at that point now. We also need a military, but NOT as it is today.
I will look forward to the future discussion.
Title: Re: What Single Issue Would Prevent You From Voting for the Next Prez?
Post by: Solar on February 02, 2013, 09:48:08 PM
Quote from: TowardLiberty on February 02, 2013, 09:25:19 PM
I will never cease to claim you are dead wrong on this issue.

A government is a very specific relationship.

The word doesn't just mean whatever we want it to.

If there is no coercive authority, then there is no government. Pure and simple.
So in your commune, for lack of a better term, who will determine punishment for infractions, one or all people, and if so, how will you enforce such rule, and what if the person flat out refuses to follow your rules, will you simply turn the other cheek and ignore him and hope he goes away?
If I remember correctly, sounds to me like you are proposing a true Democracy, which is just another form of Govt.
Title: Re: What Single Issue Would Prevent You From Voting for the Next Prez?
Post by: Phillip on February 02, 2013, 11:17:17 PM
Quote from: Yawn on January 31, 2013, 05:39:24 PM
Just curious if you have a single issue that would prevent you from voting for the GOP candidate? For me, it would be if I don't believe he'd appoint Justices to the Supreme Court that would overturn Roe v Wade. Next on my list is GOP supporters of amnesty for the new special class--the illegal Mexican voter. My two favorites are Rubio and Rand Paul, but both support amnesty for these "special" Mexicans. I may not vote if this is the best we can do.



There's not really a single plausible issue that would keep me from voting for a politician. Much better to evaluate candidates based on an overview of their policy rather than single issues. I didn't vote for Mike McWherter for governor because he was too conservative despite running against Haslam as a Democrat in the 2010 Gubernatorial race. That was based on far more than one issue.
Title: Re: What Single Issue Would Prevent You From Voting for the Next Prez?
Post by: Yawn on February 03, 2013, 05:06:49 AM
Most who won't vote parrot the line "not a dime's worth of difference" but there is.

The problem is, when you see the ones you would otherwise respect follow the Demons, and you discover just how naive they really are, and you see that THEIR plans will destroy the country, at what point do you give up or voter 3rd party?

Republican support of amnesty will destroy this country and put additional BURDEN on the already stressed and ever shrinking taxpayer base (those who hold jobs).

How can you support these people?! The country will NOT be better for their "contribution" it will be WORSE.  How can you support them?!

Bash Romney all you want as a "RINO, but he didn't support amnesty, and he promised tyo build that damn fence!
Title: Re: What Single Issue Would Prevent You From Voting for the Next Prez?
Post by: The Stranger on February 03, 2013, 06:24:36 AM
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-d-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/598693_223273961130988_2090762077_n.jpg)
Title: Re: What Single Issue Would Prevent You From Voting for the Next Prez?
Post by: TowardLiberty on February 03, 2013, 08:30:25 AM
Quote from: The Stranger on February 03, 2013, 06:24:36 AM
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-d-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/598693_223273961130988_2090762077_n.jpg)

That is an amazing quote.

I would count those of us who vote as literally "doing nothing."
Title: Re: What Single Issue Would Prevent You From Voting for the Next Prez?
Post by: Solar on February 03, 2013, 08:48:45 AM
Quote from: TowardLiberty on February 03, 2013, 08:30:25 AM
That is an amazing quote.

I would count those of us who vote as literally "doing nothing."
This is an interesting POV. To do nothing, is equivalent to fighting, yet fighting is a futile attempt at nothing?
Do they really have money trees with hamburger bearing vines and cherry soda rain pouring down in your world?
Title: Re: What Single Issue Would Prevent You From Voting for the Next Prez?
Post by: TowardLiberty on February 03, 2013, 08:50:12 AM
Quote from: Solar on February 02, 2013, 09:48:08 PM
So in your commune, for lack of a better term, who will determine punishment for infractions, one or all people, and if so, how will you enforce such rule, and what if the person flat out refuses to follow your rules, will you simply turn the other cheek and ignore him and hope he goes away?

If I remember correctly, sounds to me like you are proposing a true Democracy, which is just another form of Govt.

Commune?

I know that is not meant to come across in a positive way!!

Who determines punishment? No one person.

What happens is people agree to certain terms of a contract, with certain penalties for breaking it. If the penalties are too onerous, they do not sign.

If they do not sign, then the exchange does not happen or the association ends.

So the law, fines and punishment is something determined contractually, by both parties. For example, between the insurer and the insured.

Enforcement is also voluntary.

You either abide by the punishment determined in the private arbitration process, or you are ostracized in future dealings.

The person becomes a man unto them self- cut off from the benefits of society.

So we quickly see that law is formed and order is had, without a central body to create or enforce law.

Do you remember this from your readings of customary law?
Title: Re: What Single Issue Would Prevent You From Voting for the Next Prez?
Post by: TowardLiberty on February 03, 2013, 08:51:18 AM
Quote from: Solar on February 03, 2013, 08:48:45 AM
This is an interesting POV. To do nothing, is equivalent to fighting, yet fighting is a futile attempt at nothing?
Do they really have money trees with hamburger bearing vines and cherry soda rain pouring down in your world?

In the matrix, everything is an illusion.

Debt is money. War is peace. Poverty is prosperity. Propaganda is knowledge. Poison is food. And voting makes a difference.
Title: Re: What Single Issue Would Prevent You From Voting for the Next Prez?
Post by: Solar on February 03, 2013, 09:03:14 AM
Quote from: TowardLiberty on February 03, 2013, 08:50:12 AM
Commune?

I know that is not meant to come across in a positive way!!

Who determines punishment? No one person.

What happens is people agree to certain terms of a contract, with certain penalties for breaking it. If the penalties are too onerous, they do not sign.

If they do not sign, then the exchange does not happen or the association ends.

So the law, fines and punishment is something determined contractually, by both parties. For example, between the insurer and the insured.

Enforcement is also voluntary.

You either abide by the punishment determined the private arbitration process, or you are ostracized in future dealings.

The person becomes a man unto them self- cut off from the benefits of society.

So we quickly see that law is formed and order is had, without a central body to create or enforce law.

Do you remember this from your readings of customary law?
First it was not a slight, considering no place exists on Earth, you would need a communal type setting on a small scale.

But you assume an ideal world in your scenario.
What if someone murders someone, will you simply ostracize, shun them in future dealings, what if there were no witness to the crime, you all were certain it were murder.
What of rape? You aren't willing to write laws, merely a contract with absolutely no teeth.
So many what ifs, as in the case a group decides they don't like the rules and change them, the majority says, nay, yet the group, one which happens to control imports say, Yes we will, we have the power of monopoly.

Without repercussion, you have nothing, it's not like you can take your ball and go home, they control all import and export, you will have to deal with them, like it or not.

You simply don't take into account human nature and greed, not everyone is interested in the same goals as you, some come with the sole intention of taking over, but again, without laws and the will to back them, you have nothing, nothing but ignorant trusting sheep.
Title: Re: What Single Issue Would Prevent You From Voting for the Next Prez?
Post by: TowardLiberty on February 03, 2013, 09:32:20 AM
Quote from: Solar on February 03, 2013, 09:03:14 AM
First it was not a slight, considering no place exists on Earth, you would need a communal type setting on a small scale.

But you assume an ideal world in your scenario.
What if someone murders someone, will you simply ostracize, shun them in future dealings, what if there were no witness to the crime, you all were certain it were murder.
What of rape? You aren't willing to write laws, merely a contract with absolutely no teeth.
So many what ifs, as in the case a group decides they don't like the rules and change them, the majority says, nay, yet the group, one which happens to control imports say, Yes we will, we have the power of monopoly.

Without repercussion, you have nothing, it's not like you can take your ball and go home, they control all import and export, you will have to deal with them, like it or not.

You simply don't take into account human nature and greed, not everyone is interested in the same goals as you, some come with the sole intention of taking over, but again, without laws and the will to back them, you have nothing, nothing but ignorant trusting sheep.

Sounds like you are judging the merits of a concept you are pretty unsure about.

You know what they say about "assumptions."
Title: Re: What Single Issue Would Prevent You From Voting for the Next Prez?
Post by: Solar on February 03, 2013, 09:40:03 AM
Quote from: TowardLiberty on February 03, 2013, 09:32:20 AM
Sounds like you are judging the merits of a concept you are pretty unsure about.

You know what they say about "assumptions."
Nice dodge, now explain how your Utopia will deal with such events.
Title: Re: What Single Issue Would Prevent You From Voting for the Next Prez?
Post by: quiller on February 03, 2013, 09:51:57 AM
What would prevent me? Premature death.
Title: Re: What Single Issue Would Prevent You From Voting for the Next Prez?
Post by: TowardLiberty on February 03, 2013, 10:12:06 AM
Quote from: Solar on February 03, 2013, 09:40:03 AM
Nice dodge, now explain how your Utopia will deal with such events.

Let me say this, to you, Solar.

If you are hedging your bets that this is something I can't explain, and is some form of "utopia," that I merely have faith in.. then that is a bet that I myself would be unwilling to take, if I were you.

Think back to our other discussions on this issue. Think back to the paragraphs and paragraphs of explanation I have typed out to you, and the command of the customary law literature that I have demonstrated.

Then think to the economics, finance and ethical debates we have had, and the complex arguments you have seen me make there in.

It is sunday, I have the day off and it is a beautiful day outside.

There are a million and one things I could be doing.

Think about that, before you put too much stock in the notion that I can't explain or argue this point.

Out of all people, you should know me better than that!

I would be hesitant to doubt my ability to prattle on at length about legal systems, economic system, moral systems...

You might say, this is what I do.
Title: Re: What Single Issue Would Prevent You From Voting for the Next Prez?
Post by: kramarat on February 03, 2013, 10:57:31 AM
Quote from: TowardLiberty on February 03, 2013, 09:32:20 AM
Sounds like you are judging the merits of a concept you are pretty unsure about.

You know what they say about "assumptions."

Much like liberalism, your ideal world relies on the concept that all people are inherently "good". They are not.

Because of that realization, conservatives are bashed and spit upon on a daily basis.

We could start your world tomorrow; if not for the human capacity of pure nastiness and evil.
Title: Re: What Single Issue Would Prevent You From Voting for the Next Prez?
Post by: Solar on February 03, 2013, 11:27:07 AM
Quote from: TowardLiberty on February 03, 2013, 10:12:06 AM
Let me say this, to you, Solar.

If you are hedging your bets that this is something I can't explain, and is some form of "utopia," that I merely have faith in.. then that is a bet that I myself would be unwilling to take, if I were you.

Think back to our other discussions on this issue. Think back to the paragraphs and paragraphs of explanation I have typed out to you, and the command of the customary law literature that I have demonstrated.

Then think to the economics, finance and ethical debates we have had, and the complex arguments you have seen me make there in.

It is sunday, I have the day off and it is a beautiful day outside.

There are a million and one things I could be doing.

Think about that, before you put too much stock in the notion that I can't explain or argue this point.

Out of all people, you should know me better than that!

I would be hesitant to doubt my ability to prattle on at length about legal systems, economic system, moral systems...

You might say, this is what I do.
I have no doubt you believe in what you are purporting as a way of life, I on the other hand am trying to understand how you think you can have a civil society, one not based in law with teeth to support it's foundation.
As Kram and I have pointed out, not all people share your concept and as history has proven, idealists never succeed.
Title: Re: What Single Issue Would Prevent You From Voting for the Next Prez?
Post by: supsalemgr on February 03, 2013, 12:43:23 PM
I like Rush, like to believe I live in "Realville". In my several decades on this planet I have figured there are some things I might like just ain't going happen. When I was in HS I thought how nice it would be if everybody just had all the same stuff. Three summers working on survey crew opened my eyes to what reality is. In my mind, this is why libs are so often prove their way is too idealistic. I think our SS ponzi scheme is a perfect example. It sounded so good 80 years ago when there were 16 workers for every retiree and the life expectancy was below 65. Now there are only 2 workers for every retiree and life expectancy is way beyond 65. Yet the idealistic dems ignore the fact the scheme is finally coming apart.

The point is idealogues are always waiting for the ultimate desired result.
Title: Re: What Single Issue Would Prevent You From Voting for the Next Prez?
Post by: kramarat on February 03, 2013, 01:04:34 PM
Quote from: supsalemgr on February 03, 2013, 12:43:23 PM
I like Rush, like to believe I live in "Realville". In my several decades on this planet I have figured there are some things I might like just ain't going happen. When I was in HS I thought how nice it would be if everybody just had all the same stuff. Three summers working on survey crew opened my eyes to what reality is. In my mind, this is why libs are so often prove their way is too idealistic. I think our SS ponzi scheme is a perfect example. It sounded so good 80 years ago when there were 16 workers for every retiree and the life expectancy was below 65. Now there are only 2 workers for every retiree and life expectancy is way beyond 65. Yet the idealistic dems ignore the fact the scheme is finally coming apart.

The point is idealogues are always waiting for the ultimate desired result.

You know what's really sad?

We'll never know if the SS ponzi scheme would have worked. I think it could have, (maybe), but they broke their promise to the PEOPLE, and spent it. :sad:
Title: Re: What Single Issue Would Prevent You From Voting for the Next Prez?
Post by: TowardLiberty on February 04, 2013, 02:36:13 PM
Quote from: kramarat on February 03, 2013, 10:57:31 AM
Much like liberalism, your ideal world relies on the concept that all people are inherently "good". They are not.

You just proved you have no clue about what I am talking about.

Nowhere is this assumption made.

And it is not in liberalism, either.

Quote
Because of that realization, conservatives are bashed and spit upon on a daily basis.

We could start your world tomorrow; if not for the human capacity of pure nastiness and evil.

I hate to break it to you, but this line of attack, while compelling to the laymen, is toothless when you actually begin to look at what I am saying.

I am not saying this to be rude or dodge an argument.

It is the truth.

There is nothing in my views that necessitates a change in human nature.

Nothing.
Title: Re: What Single Issue Would Prevent You From Voting for the Next Prez?
Post by: TowardLiberty on February 04, 2013, 02:37:30 PM
Quote from: Solar on February 03, 2013, 11:27:07 AM
I have no doubt you believe in what you are purporting as a way of life, I on the other hand am trying to understand how you think you can have a civil society, one not based in law with teeth to support it's foundation.
As Kram and I have pointed out, not all people share your concept and as history has proven, idealists never succeed.

Whoever said you could have society without law?

I merely claim you can have law without government.

Really, if we are going to discuss this stuff, you have to know where I am coming from.
Title: Re: What Single Issue Would Prevent You From Voting for the Next Prez?
Post by: Solar on February 04, 2013, 02:55:24 PM
Quote from: TowardLiberty on February 04, 2013, 02:37:30 PM
Whoever said you could have society without law?

I merely claim you can have law without government.

Really, if we are going to discuss this stuff, you have to know where I am coming from.
And this is a failure on my part, how?
If you have some solid evidence that your form of society is functioning today, then post it.
I wouldn't use a reference to the past, that merely evidences it's failure.
Title: Re: What Single Issue Would Prevent You From Voting for the Next Prez?
Post by: TowardLiberty on February 04, 2013, 02:59:46 PM
Quote from: Solar on February 04, 2013, 02:55:24 PM
And this is a failure on my part, how?
If you have some solid evidence that your form of society is functioning today, then post it.
I wouldn't use a reference to the past, that merely evidences it's failure.

I have explained all of this stuff at least 3 and maybe even 4 times in the past.

On another occasion I have posted the essay by Bob Murphy that makes all of this stuff easy to understand.

And I have posted articles by legal scholar Bruce Benson on the history of customary law.

I can tell from our conversations that you did not read this material nor retain what I had explained in previous conversations.

We start over from zero every time.

It is like we have never had the conversation at all!
Title: Re: What Single Issue Would Prevent You From Voting for the Next Prez?
Post by: TowardLiberty on February 04, 2013, 03:05:36 PM
Quote from: Solar on February 04, 2013, 02:55:24 PM

If you have some solid evidence that your form of society is functioning today, then post it.


You are familiar with the concept of international commercial law?

Commercial law is not enforced by a government (because not state has jurisdiction over foreigners), but by ostracism, agreement, and reciprocity.
Quote

I wouldn't use a reference to the past, that merely evidences it's failure.

Democracy failed in the past, in the Greek city states and it is in use today, and failing again.

This statement you have made here is actually quite naive.

A civilization can be overwhelmed by a stronger civilization and this can either be related or unrelated to its legal system.

There is no a priori reason to assume a customary law society was over run because of its customary legal system.

In fact, the reverse is often claimed regarding private law Ireland.
Title: Re: What Single Issue Would Prevent You From Voting for the Next Prez?
Post by: Solar on February 04, 2013, 03:17:05 PM
Quote from: TowardLiberty on February 04, 2013, 02:59:46 PM
I have explained all of this stuff at least 3 and maybe even 4 times in the past.

On another occasion I have posted the essay by Bob Murphy that makes all of this stuff easy to understand.

And I have posted articles by legal scholar Bruce Benson on the history of customary law.

I can tell from our conversations that you did not read this material nor retain what I had explained in previous conversations.

We start over from zero every time.

It is like we have never had the conversation at all!
I remember the conversation, though it must have made much of an impression.
Though I do remember pointing out what you propose is a mkt based idea, and in a mkt based society fines carry a heavy cost towards compliance.
But what happens when murder takes place, fine the individual?

But feel free to show just how well this system worked in the past, or is presently.

TL, don't get me wrong, I wish this system were feasible, it would be phenomenal,but human nature simply goes against the principal that all can agree to do the right thing.
Coups would quickly arise as bantering groups vie for power, feuds are inevitable, it's what people do.

Maybe instead of theorizing, or rather, dreaming of a better tomorrow, we all try and fix today's problem.
Title: Re: What Single Issue Would Prevent You From Voting for the Next Prez?
Post by: Yawn on February 04, 2013, 06:11:32 PM
That's the problem with Socialists and pure Libertarians (but only pure on SOCIAL issues). They don't understand human nature or the human heart. Most people take advantage if they can. People seek power over others. It's in the nature of Man. That's why the Founders saw the need to list GOD-Given rights that neither government nor individuals can usurp. The ONLY reason for the existence of the Federal Government is to protect those rights. It has no other legitimate purpose.
Title: Re: What Single Issue Would Prevent You From Voting for the Next Prez?
Post by: TowardLiberty on February 04, 2013, 06:24:12 PM
Quote from: Yawn on February 04, 2013, 06:11:32 PM
That's the problem with Socialists and pure Libertarians (but only pure on SOCIAL issues). They don't understand human nature or the human heart. Most people take advantage if they can. People seek power over others. It's in the nature of Man. That's why the Founders saw the need to list GOD-Given rights that neither government nor individuals can usurp. The ONLY reason for the existence of the Federal Government is to protect those rights. It has no other legitimate purpose.

Libertarians understand that truth better than anyone.

Hence their opposition to the creation of an entity with the legal right to use force.

Hobbes had it wrong!
Title: Re: What Single Issue Would Prevent You From Voting for the Next Prez?
Post by: TowardLiberty on February 04, 2013, 06:25:57 PM
Quote from: Solar on February 04, 2013, 03:17:05 PM
I remember the conversation, though it must have made much of an impression.
Though I do remember pointing out what you propose is a mkt based idea, and in a mkt based society fines carry a heavy cost towards compliance.
But what happens when murder takes place, fine the individual?

But feel free to show just how well this system worked in the past, or is presently.

TL, don't get me wrong, I wish this system were feasible, it would be phenomenal,but human nature simply goes against the principal that all can agree to do the right thing.
Coups would quickly arise as bantering groups vie for power, feuds are inevitable, it's what people do.

Maybe instead of theorizing, or rather, dreaming of a better tomorrow, we all try and fix today's problem.

Before you can judge the feasibility of a system you have to comprehend it, understand it and possess it.

We are still working on getting there.
Title: Re: What Single Issue Would Prevent You From Voting for the Next Prez?
Post by: Solar on February 04, 2013, 08:04:24 PM
Quote from: TowardLiberty on February 04, 2013, 06:25:57 PM
Before you can judge the feasibility of a system you have to comprehend it, understand it and possess it.

We are still working on getting there.
The closest thing I can think of that worked for just about ever, is the hawala system of banking, but even that is backed by a political system disguised as a Religion.
Title: Re: What Single Issue Would Prevent You From Voting for the Next Prez?
Post by: TowardLiberty on February 05, 2013, 06:42:29 AM
Quote from: Solar on February 04, 2013, 08:04:24 PM
The closest thing I can think of that worked for just about ever, is the hawala system of banking, but even that is backed by a political system disguised as a Religion.

Well you would need to first get an understanding of just what I am talking about, and then we can see how close particular events in reality have been.

The closest thing today is commercial international law.
Title: Re: What Single Issue Would Prevent You From Voting for the Next Prez?
Post by: Solar on February 05, 2013, 07:29:34 AM
Quote from: TowardLiberty on February 05, 2013, 06:42:29 AM
Well you would need to first get an understanding of just what I am talking about, and then we can see how close particular events in reality have been.

The closest thing today is commercial international law.
OK, lets cut to the chase, not all countries have a vested interest in getting along, they want to dominate other regions, that's human nature.
Communists have no interest in Capitalism, except when it furthers their cause of total domination over those they conquered and currently rule or are pursuing.

Which brings us full circle, you claim we simply need to quit participating and our system would collapse and from it's ashes would magically appear a Capitalist system of trade, no govt and freedom for all.

Again, let me reiterate, human nature has yet to be placed in context, you ignore the fact that half the country likes socialism, these people have no interest in seeing Capitalism prevail.
So tell me again, how will this fantasy world of yours succeed?

This is the reason I live in a factual world, not a theoretical one, theory is fine for the dreamer, but even the best laid plans can never account for human stupidity.

Let me be blunt, your dream is beyond fiction and to think it even has a chance of replacing our current form of Govt is nothing short of the dreams of a naive kid.
Get off your cloud and join the rest of us in fighting the monster at hand, once slain, we can talk about your ideas...
Title: Re: What Single Issue Would Prevent You From Voting for the Next Prez?
Post by: TowardLiberty on February 13, 2013, 07:07:49 AM
Quote from: Solar on February 05, 2013, 07:29:34 AM
OK, lets cut to the chase, not all countries have a vested interest in getting along, they want to dominate other regions, that's human nature.
Communists have no interest in Capitalism, except when it furthers their cause of total domination over those they conquered and currently rule or are pursuing.

Which brings us full circle, you claim we simply need to quit participating and our system would collapse and from it's ashes would magically appear a Capitalist system of trade, no govt and freedom for all.

Yes.

That is the magic of the spontaneous order.

It is also the product of self interest.

Remember, Adam Smith and the invisible hand?

That explanation covers more than just markets. It explains society, law, money and language, no less.

Quote
Again, let me reiterate, human nature has yet to be placed in context, you ignore the fact that half the country likes socialism, these people have no interest in seeing Capitalism prevail.

Human nature is always front and center in these debates.

Without praxeology we are lost in trying to understand human action.

Half the country can like whatever it wants. But when you have to produce to eat, you become a capitalist.

Quote
So tell me again, how will this fantasy world of yours succeed?

Just like it did in the past.

Rewind to beginning of society and you will see my argument.
Quote

This is the reason I live in a factual world, not a theoretical one, theory is fine for the dreamer, but even the best laid plans can never account for human stupidity.

There is no factual world apart from the theoretical.

You can't separate them that clearly.

Well, you can, but you would be wrong to do so.

Quote

Let me be blunt, your dream is beyond fiction and to think it even has a chance of replacing our current form of Govt is nothing short of the dreams of a naive kid.
Get off your cloud and join the rest of us in fighting the monster at hand, once slain, we can talk about your ideas...

Let me be blunt.

I believe you.

I believe you see my arguments in that light.

I also believe you don't really have a clue about what we are talking about.
Title: Re: What Single Issue Would Prevent You From Voting for the Next Prez?
Post by: Solar on February 13, 2013, 07:39:57 AM
Quote from: TowardLiberty on February 13, 2013, 07:07:49 AM
Yes.

That is the magic of the spontaneous order.

It is also the product of self interest.

Remember, Adam Smith and the invisible hand?

That explanation covers more than just markets. It explains society, law, money and language, no less.

Human nature is always front and center in these debates.

Without praxeology we are lost in trying to understand human action.

Half the country can like whatever it wants. But when you have to produce to eat, you become a capitalist.

Just like it did in the past.

Rewind to beginning of society and you will see my argument.
There is no factual world apart from the theoretical.

You can't separate them that clearly.

Well, you can, but you would be wrong to do so.

Let me be blunt.

I believe you.

I believe you see my arguments in that light.

I also believe you don't really have a clue about what we are talking about.
I absolutely do, it's the same argument socialists make, both have an ideal vision of society that simply isn't sustainable.

Lets take war for example, lets assume the private sector is in charge of security, but as with human nature, you have those that have grown tired of corruption and want to overthrow your society.

Without laws with teeth, how are they punished? Remember, you said there is no Govt only commercial agreements.

But lets take a closer look at security, is it one corporation in charge, or is it all business in charge of security?
This means you'll need a full time Military, one with rules and regs of engagement, pay scale, command structure.
Damn, sounds like Govt, but lets continue, what happens when a rather large corporation decides it wants it's own security force, and builds a bigger stronger force than that of society?

There won't be a thing you can do about it, because you didn't have laws with teeth.
Now there is a shift in power, contracts are in peril of being nullified, the new corporate power is in control.

But of course, that would never happen in a total Democracy, right? :rolleyes:
Title: Re: What Single Issue Would Prevent You From Voting for the Next Prez?
Post by: TowardLiberty on February 14, 2013, 07:32:04 AM
Quote from: Solar on February 13, 2013, 07:39:57 AM
I absolutely do, it's the same argument socialists make, both have an ideal vision of society that simply isn't sustainable.

Lets take war for example, lets assume the private sector is in charge of security, but as with human nature, you have those that have grown tired of corruption and want to overthrow your society.

Without laws with teeth, how are they punished? Remember, you said there is no Govt only commercial agreements.

But lets take a closer look at security, is it one corporation in charge, or is it all business in charge of security?
This means you'll need a full time Military, one with rules and regs of engagement, pay scale, command structure.
Damn, sounds like Govt, but lets continue, what happens when a rather large corporation decides it wants it's own security force, and builds a bigger stronger force than that of society?

There won't be a thing you can do about it, because you didn't have laws with teeth.
Now there is a shift in power, contracts are in peril of being nullified, the new corporate power is in control.

But of course, that would never happen in a total Democracy, right? :rolleyes:

Like I said. You have literally no clue at all about what I am talking about.

How to do deal with violent outlaws?

Self defense is the always just and after the act is done, a private arbitration process, followed by the possibility of social ostracism, is the enforcement mechanism.

Though, I am not going to spend too much time describing this because it has been done to death.

Your knowledge can only grow from here by doing some independent study.

Total democracy? Who brought the state into this discussion??!

Before we can discuss anarchy and the state, we have to understand human nature. And I can tell from our discussions that human nature is something many assume they understand, because they are human. But when we actually start discussing the issue, it is clear that the subject is one not widely understood.

The fact is, centralized political authority is incompatible with human nature.
Title: Re: What Single Issue Would Prevent You From Voting for the Next Prez?
Post by: Solar on February 14, 2013, 08:22:53 AM
Quote from: TowardLiberty on February 14, 2013, 07:32:04 AM
Like I said. You have literally no clue at all about what I am talking about.
No, it's obviously you that is clueless.
How to do deal with violent outlaws?

Self defense is the always just and after the act is done, a private arbitration process, followed by the possibility of social ostracism, is the enforcement mechanism.
[/quote]
That's all well and good, but what if they weren't able to protect themselves and the perp got away with murder, do you think simple arbitration and ostracism is really any kind of deterrent?
QuoteThough, I am not going to spend too much time describing this because it has been done to death.
Your knowledge can only grow from here by doing some independent study.

No, in your mind you're convinced you've made a case, but clearly you have not or we wouldn't be discussing it.
Total democracy? Who brought the state into this discussion??!
Quote
Before we can discuss anarchy and the state, we have to understand human nature. And I can tell from our discussions that human nature is something many assume they understand, because they are human. But when we actually start discussing the issue, it is clear that the subject is one not widely understood.
Read Sun Tzu and get back to me on that.
QuoteThe fact is, centralized political authority is incompatible with human nature.
Wrong, hierarchy is human nature, in fact it spans across the animal kingdom.

We are equal as individuals, but there will always be those wanting to rule over others they see as weak, that is human nature, even I, someone that believes in fairness, will shred someone I perceive as weak and unwilling to pull their fair share and participate, and that goes for voting as well, don't participate, don't expect respect.
Title: Re: What Single Issue Would Prevent You From Voting for the Next Prez?
Post by: Cryptic Bert on February 14, 2013, 07:53:04 PM
    
QuoteWhat Single Issue Would Prevent You From Voting for the Next Prez?

Rogering under age Dominican Prostitutes comes to mind...
Title: Re: What Single Issue Would Prevent You From Voting for the Next Prez?
Post by: keyboarder on February 15, 2013, 01:25:25 AM
Hmm, Heard alot of good ideas and also alot that I cannot agree with.  I can also see where some on here are trying to be arbitrators or at the very least neutral lite, like taxed and Turks, who really have kept my interest because just when I think i've had enough one of them will punt another quip across and I lose it one more time( :lol:).

With all of that aside, my theory is that "without counsel, the masses will fall".  That counsel has to be fair but that's where the line is drawn in the sand and i'll give you one fine example and shutup.  But first an explanation of my point.

  From our beginnings in America, we had strong religious views and these views were contrary with other religious views but these were the rule when the country was founded.  Even those views weren't perfect though.  Wonder why each religion thought it's views were perfect and ought to overshadow the others?  I guess when you get right down to the bottom line, everybody has an opinion and we could talk for days and get nothing accomplished.  Should there be fairness or should we just go with feelings or maybe even just our own understanding of situations based on sometimes ineffectual witness of situations and or people?  Getting to my point.

  Can anyone see why we had to get away from being governed by or controlled by religious types?  I don't have a problem with my religion because it aligns itself with what is accepted as the truth that is found in the Bible.  Being a product of my rearing, I adhere to it's teachings.  In other words, I have been conditioned to follow after a certain set of rules that does include respecting the rule of law.  Here comes that "line in the sand thingy again".  My understanding of situations that I face depends upon how much time I have devoted to studying these situations and contemplating different possibilities but always with much meditation to the precepts of fairness that I have learned in and by life experiences.  Think maybe that's how we wound up with the founding fathers in the first place.  Whew!  Are they rolling in their graves right now or what?  It certainly has evolved into something different now, hasn't it?

  Think back to the Salem witch trials in the 1600's.  Religious types were the authority back then and innocent people were burned at the stake because of customary law, even though the victims were at the mercy of the collective opinions of folks that conjured up gossip and lies-heck, even imaginary devils that these victims were in league with just because they may have actually enjoyed the feminine past-time of dancing in the moonlight with other girls, just at play.  That is what I thought of when TL mentioned "ostracizing".  Hey, they all agreed except the ones that got cooked.  I can see where some if not all of the people in this "cult"had their drawers in a wad when they agreed to any such doings if they didn't apply the rules of their "utopia" to themselves before they agreed to them.   Someone had to intervene that had a little common sense, but look how long that took.

The system can be righted and we do need an intervention.  Sorry folks, Obunglar isn't the one to right our wrongs and "Mr. Deeds" types aren't around anymore.  But we can't separate ourselves from the tribe(s).  What we can do is be vocal about our beliefs and exercise our right to them (that means-vote).  We aren't going to move any mountains by just our vote alone, but we can collectively strive to make our opinion(s) known.  That's where the term counts that implies a win by "strategy in numbers".     I'm not really sure of TL's ideaology but sure enough to know that it's one not commonly held by members of this forum and also one not apt to garner any followers amongst us either.

I've been tempted to "not vote" because I don't trust today's voting process and I do think that dems have done enough homework to be able to turn the process to their favor by using means they've already tested and succeeded at in other areas of their interests.  The republican party will have to re-educate themselves in areas that will help them gain an edge over contenders for the WH.  Until then, I will remain a conservative and vote against liberalism, marxism, dumbdemisms, socialisms, Islamisms, rinoisms. and communisms.   : :woot: 

Title: Re: What Single Issue Would Prevent You From Voting for the Next Prez?
Post by: Yawn on February 15, 2013, 02:47:23 AM
Quote from: keyboarder on February 15, 2013, 01:25:25 AM

  Think back to the Salem witch trials in the 1600's.  Religious types were the authority back then and innocent people were burned at the stake because of customary law, even though the victims were at the mercy of the collective opinions of folks that conjured up gossip and lies-heck, even imaginary devils that these victims were in league with just because they may have actually enjoyed the feminine past-time of dancing in the moonlight with other girls, just at play. 

Although this belongs in the religion section, do you have any idea HOW MANY in America were executed as witches (http://www.wallbuilders.com/libissuesarticles.asp?id=100)? Do you know how many in EUROPE (funny how you never hear about that!)?  Google it, and you'll be amazed!  Now, how many have died because of a LACK of religious instruction--basic moral teaching? Crime and violence has skyrocketed since we threw Go out of the classroom. SOMETHING will always fill a vacuum.