What exactly is a "corporate cheerleader"?

  To me its someone who finds no fault with any company or corporation and who acts like they are always victimized by their workers.

Unions ARE detrimental to business.  Again, we aren't on the same page here.

Yes but not always, just like business is detrimental to workers at times. Miners that work for big mining corporations who never fix their regulatory and saftey violations to save money and kill miners. Or BP who wouldnt pay overtime to awaken sleeping employees and other safety violations to save money that cost thousands upon thousands their jobs and livilhoods for a period and other small business' to lose lots of money Its a two way street, taxed you need to realize that and admit it.

This question is dependent on what you mean by "screw".  Your range seems pretty broad, so help me understand how we are defining it before I answer your question the best I can.

    Heres a few examples of screw...Worldcom, Enron,  Pabst blue ribbon that just illegally took all their employees pensions and lost in court 20 yrs later and had to pay them all back, yup my father got screwed almost till the day he died on that.  Benjamin Moore Paint and Sherwin Williams paint have factories right next to each other they have been there over 40 yrs that i know of...Sherwin Williiama has always been union Benjamin has never been...sherwin williams employees made more money had more benefits...sherwin williams is still in business...alot of times its just about the poor company wants  more and more ..not about the mean ole greedy employees wanting more.

I have never dodged any questions or statements.  You should have no problem producing an example to support your assertion.  I'll be waiting...
 
You have never produced proof of a thing young man :) your a professional proof requester...practice what you preach...let YOUR fingers do the walking, im not playing that game and im not buying that lie either.

You can't support your arguments.  What bad stuff are they doing.  Zip, are you ever going to address this?

    There ya go the Taxed in denial or dishonest taxed I keep addressing it in every post....I guess you dont read anyones post you just see the word corporation and you jump into your cheerleading outfit with the big C on the chest....Ive produced many expamples and  you like always.  produce none and accuse everyone else of not providing any, then to cover that you ask more quetions.  because you have no answers for what was provided and you demand more proof over an over ad nauseam...yarite ill buy that lol


Those employees found other jobs.  Skilling went to prison.  Lay died but was right behind him.  Great example.  People break the law, they go to prison.

I look forward to you supporting your claims someday.

   This statement by itself PROVES how uninformed or dishonest you are. Those employees found other jobs? provide proof please..:)  How about all of skillings employees that were retired and lost ALL their income in their 60s, active employees that lost their jobs losing  what they paid into their 401ks people already. ..Are you insinuating that because skilling went to prison that makes what he and the rest of the corporate scum did to all those employees ok ? I guess Bernie Madholff victims should feel ecstatic because he got life..Are you also insinuating that because ken lay died the employees should feel better about him destroying them ??? ...what is wrong with you taxed ? what in your life has made you think like this.
   You look forward to me supporting my claims? whatcha got anything to support yours? lol your a real treat...taxed I honestly believed you were smarter than this...but your not, my impressions were all correct...you will defend corporations tooth and nail no matter what is provided to you no matter how much you dont know
     I look forward to your supporting your cheerleading one day with some facts not just endless  questions and dodges

  I owned two pizzerias with a partne,  another cop..we bought an existing one and we started one from scratch...we owned 4 laundramats...not big business but we had several employees and 3 managers working for us....WE never had employee problems like other same business' ..because we treated our employess better than everyone else  and we paid more than any other pizzerias around...and we made damn good money...same with the laundramats we had two employees for years....My wife has started owned and ran 3 salons...so I guess I can be considered a very small business owner...
    The business that treated their employees like shit...got robbed, had employees  not show up regularly,  quit on the spot to stick it to them, tear up delivery vehicles to get even, tore up equiptment .....we had none of that and in the end..we had far more successful business's   Employees are as good to you as you are to them...theres always bad employees so you do your best to screen hires and you fire non performers...but you dont have to SCREW THEM and look down your nose at them like they exist only to work like a dog for you because its your investment and you took the risks...

    Lastly taxed you come off as one callous indvidual.
   

Zip!
     You gave a short history of why unions were formed, no disagreements about that. You presented an angle to it that will get me to do a little more research on it. Thanks.
     Can't argue that there are good and bad people everywhere, and what really struck me was the realisation that Unions have become big business. The classic maxim that "You had better be carefull when fighting monsters, lest you become one of them." in full form.
      What I am understanding you to say, is that the core ideal of the union is to protect the workers from exploitation. To me that is a good thing.
      My perception is that unions in general have gone beyond that, much like some major corporations, and are exploiting workers as well. For instance, a mandatory portion of a public school system workers pay  used to go directly to support the Democratic Party. in the late eighties, early nineties, after much resistance, it was no longer referred to as going to the Party, but you had no choice, and no explanation as to where it went, as I recall.
      Zip, Do you think that unions have attained so much political might that they have any power to influence voters who might vote the way the unions want them to, not for the good of state or the entire country, for all people, but for fear of losing their jobs? 
      Were programs like OSHA  formed to address the same issues that unions champion, that unions have become a redundancy? Great and needed in the beginning, but expensive to the worker for something now provided for by law?
      Zip, thanks again for presenting something I know little about. Something to chew on.
   

Good point Eyes, Unions are in many cases bigger and stronger than the business they infect.
Based on Zips description of an evil greedy corporate monster, they have become the very thing they set out to destroy.

Quite the conundrum.

Quote from: zip on December 14, 2010, 08:58:02 AM
    I always chuckle after I post these FACTS...I know that none of the union haters will respond...its a real bitch when your confronted with the truth and the truth doesnt quantify of most of your corporate cheerleading its like your kneeling and paying homage to the gods on Mount Olympus lol

Try not to be too smug. The fall hurts more from a greater height.

First, unions didn't come about because of sweatshops. If that were the case there would've been unions in ancient Egypt and pretty much every country in every period in history. Unions are nothing more then a means by which a relatively small number of people screw a much larger number of people out of not very much per person. The only way a relatively small number of people can successfully screw a larger number of people is via the use of political power. Otherwise the people being screwed say "screw you" and find a more pleasant relationship.

Second, I don't hate unions nor do I bash them although if I wanted to I'd certainly have the experience to do so on a factual basis having been a member of two unions, the Pressmen and the UAW. Oh yeah, I watched my dad screwed out of a lot of money by a union he belonged too. As a VP of the PBA you either saw "brothers" being screwed or participated in the screwing. I know more then enough about unions to know that the truth is one or the other but not neither.

My beef with unions is that they're parasitic in nature. Like a leach or a mosquito.

Sorry if that offends you but if you can come up with some value unions bring to free enterprise you'll be a lot smarter then every union defender to date.

Even in your defense of unions the focus is on you. What you got in terms of pay and benefits. But that's just a rationalization to avoid coming to terms with the fact that you didn't earn what you got, you just got it because you had the power to take it. You want to celebrate the goodies you got because you were in a position to twist arms? That's your privilege but I'm not going to participate.

Of course most union people, especially when no one else is around, don't bother with the rationalizations. They take pleasure in knowing they've gotten what they didn't earn and are happy to go back and get more. Hey, who wouldn't? Right?

My interest in unions is really academic. I want to understand what unions are, where they came from and what the future holds for them. That's why I made my predictions. Not because I hate unions but because I believe I understand unions and what brought them into being. I'm playing scientist by making a prediction. If my prediction turns out I'm a happy guy because it means I'm right in my hypothesis. I'm also glad because some degree of injustice will have gone out of the world as well but I'm not responsible for that happening so my feelings are about the same as they are when it stops raining on my picnic; I'm glad but not because I'm responsible.

I'm going to guess that either your chuckle has been erased to be replaced by a look of slack-jawed amazement it the pure light of my brilliance or you've fallen asleep. In any case, off to do other things.

Quote from: zip on December 15, 2010, 04:11:39 AM
What exactly is a "corporate cheerleader"?

  To me its someone who finds no fault with any company or corporation and who acts like they are always victimized by their workers.

Quote
Unions ARE detrimental to business.  Again, we aren't on the same page here.

Yes but not always, just like business is detrimental to workers at times.

Business is detrimental to the people who have jobs because of the business?

Quote
Miners that work for big mining corporations who never fix their regulatory and saftey violations to save money and kill miners.

Is that legal?

Quote
Or BP who wouldnt pay overtime to awaken sleeping employees and other safety violations to save money that cost thousands upon thousands their jobs and livilhoods for a period and other small business' to lose lots of money

Are these scenarios legal?

Quote
Its a two way street, taxed you need to realize that and admit it.

I believe in putting those that break the law in jail.  Please show me where I have strayed from that, but as usual with you, I don't expect it.

Quote
This question is dependent on what you mean by "screw".  Your range seems pretty broad, so help me understand how we are defining it before I answer your question the best I can.

    Heres a few examples of screw...Worldcom, Enron,  Pabst blue ribbon that just illegally took all their employees pensions and lost in court 20 yrs later and had to pay them all back, yup my father got screwed almost till the day he died on that.

You call it "screw", I call it "breaking the law".  I don't appreciate your suggestion that I support criminal activity.  If you can show me posts where I have, then please post them.  Otherwise, that isn't cool.

Quote
  Benjamin Moore Paint and Sherwin Williams paint have factories right next to each other they have been there over 40 yrs that i know of...Sherwin Williiama has always been union Benjamin has never been...sherwin williams employees made more money had more benefits...sherwin williams is still in business...

Sherwin Williams has a great product and is in business in spite of the unions.  They would take care of their employees without unions.  I am sure you will disagree with that.

Quote
alot of times its just about the poor company wants  more and more ..not about the mean ole greedy employees wanting more.

Zip, here you go with a broad sweep of business.  When I hear a company wants more and more, I think of them increasing sales.  If they are bad to their employees, the employees leave.  If they are good and have a good work environment, they get hire higher quality of talent.

Quote
I have never dodged any questions or statements.  You should have no problem producing an example to support your assertion.  I'll be waiting...
 
You have never produced proof of a thing young man :) your a professional proof requester...practice what you preach...let YOUR fingers do the walking, im not playing that game and im not buying that lie either.

You made the accusation.  I am just defending it.

Quote
You can't support your arguments.  What bad stuff are they doing.  Zip, are you ever going to address this?

    There ya go the Taxed in denial or dishonest taxed I keep addressing it in every post....I guess you dont read anyones post you just see the word corporation and you jump into your cheerleading outfit with the big C on the chest....Ive produced many expamples and  you like always.  produce none and accuse everyone else of not providing any, then to cover that you ask more quetions.  because you have no answers for what was provided and you demand more proof over an over ad nauseam...yarite ill buy that lol

You just keep posting Enron and Worldcom, who went under and management went to jail.  Yet, you use them as evidence of the overall corporate and business culture.

Quote
Those employees found other jobs.  Skilling went to prison.  Lay died but was right behind him.  Great example.  People break the law, they go to prison.

I look forward to you supporting your claims someday.

   This statement by itself PROVES how uninformed or dishonest you are. Those employees found other jobs? provide proof please..:)

Being in telecom for years, I personally know of a bunch.  Calling me a dishonest person because I 1) know of personal examples, and 2) I don't believe those people haven't worked since, isn't very cool.

Quote
  How about all of skillings employees that were retired and lost ALL their income in their 60s, active employees that lost their jobs losing  what they paid into their 401ks people already.

Lots of people did, not just them.  I used to work for a billiion-dollar telecom company, back in those days, that went belly up.  One time a VP flew down, gave us a pep talk, and recommended we sop our contributions away in company stock.  I kept preaching to others that it isn't smart.  Some of us didn't.  Those that did lost it all.  Read the quote in my sig line.

Quote
..Are you insinuating that because skilling went to prison that makes what he and the rest of the corporate scum did to all those employees ok ?

Great argument Zip.  You are really using your brain now.  Yes zip.  I also say what Manson did to his victims is OK because he is in jail.

Quote
I guess Bernie Madholff victims should feel ecstatic because he got life..Are you also insinuating that because ken lay died the employees should feel better about him destroying them ??? ...what is wrong with you taxed ? what in your life has made you think like this.

Wow.

Quote
   You look forward to me supporting my claims? whatcha got anything to support yours? lol your a real treat...taxed I honestly believed you were smarter than this...but your not, my impressions were all correct...you will defend corporations tooth and nail no matter what is provided to you no matter how much you dont know
     I look forward to your supporting your cheerleading one day with some facts not just endless  questions and dodges

I have been simply asking for evidence of your accusations, all the while on defense, while supporting these crooks going to jail.

Quote
  I owned two pizzerias with a partne,  another cop..we bought an existing one and we started one from scratch...we owned 4 laundramats...not big business but we had several employees and 3 managers working for us....WE never had employee problems like other same business' ..because we treated our employess better than everyone else  and we paid more than any other pizzerias around...and we made damn good money...same with the laundramats we had two employees for years....My wife has started owned and ran 3 salons...so I guess I can be considered a very small business owner...

Why didn't you hire more?

Quote
    The business that treated their employees like shit...got robbed, had employees  not show up regularly,  quit on the spot to stick it to them, tear up delivery vehicles to get even, tore up equiptment .....we had none of that and in the end..we had far more successful business's

Were you guys unionized, out of curiosity?

Quote
   Employees are as good to you as you are to them...theres always bad employees so you do your best to screen hires and you fire non performers...but you dont have to SCREW THEM and look down your nose at them like they exist only to work like a dog for you because its your investment and you took the risks...

I'll never know where the hell you keep getting this from.

Quote
    Lastly taxed you come off as one callous indvidual.

I really am.   You should see me around Christmas time when I am handing out bonuses.  Employees hate that.

Quote from: zip on December 14, 2010, 11:41:02 AM
    I agreed they were on the decline if you read my whole post and I agreed that they have gone too far and need to be reeled in...
I just get tired of the same people bashing  unions and hailing  greedy corporations like they are gods when their mistreatment of workers are what caused the  unions to be created in the first place....
    The only reason more workers arent being abused is  because the laws and REGULATIONS that stop sweat shops  and made them proivde safe workplaces.  Let workers be treated like they were that caused unions to be created and watch the same response happen all over again, the greedy mentality and I want more attitude of corporations and their owners and ceo's  hasnt changed, its just been forced to stop... watch unions make a real big comeback if they start their fecal matter again.
    The only ones that benefit from illegal mexicans invading our country is the greedy bastards that hire them and dont want to pay a decent wage to americans and thats not all big corps that gasp small business greedsters...

      Tbone just for you buddy :) ...I dont care  about feeling comfy on this board or any other...and I have no problem disagreeing with all my buddies on here...I do not play follow the leader...just .because union bashing and bowing to corporate gods is a popular thing to do here...I wont do it but most of these guys already know that :)

it.

   

Zip, I agree, unions were a good thing. Key work being were. Now we have labor laws that prevent abusing employees. The unions here in California are now full of illegals(with fake documentation), so the corporations aren't the only ones hiring them. every city in this state is struggling to balance their budgets, the main reason has been funding pensions., along with greedy councilmen and mayors of course. I personally don't have a problem with the police or fireman's union. They have a difficult and dangerous job, and they are professionals. I have several cops in the family. The problem I have is with state and federal employees, if you have ever dealt with the city on any matter, it doesn't take long to realize most are just incompetent and rude.  I don't begrudge someone making a decent living, but it has gotten way out of hand with the demands. The corruption has become so blatant, with the attitude that they can do just about anything they want. They need to be reined in, and the cities should contract labor to the private sector. It's much more efficient and cheaper in the long run. But the democrats in the city council fight it all the way. That's how it is in California anyway, owned and operated by democrats for over 35 years.

Quote from: Eyesabide on December 15, 2010, 06:14:38 AM
Zip!
     You gave a short history of why unions were formed, no disagreements about that. You presented an angle to it that will get me to do a little more research on it. Thanks.
     Can't argue that there are good and bad people everywhere, and what really struck me was the realisation that Unions have become big business. The classic maxim that "You had better be carefull when fighting monsters, lest you become one of them." in full form.
      What I am understanding you to say, is that the core ideal of the union is to protect the workers from exploitation. To me that is a good thing.
      My perception is that unions in general have gone beyond that, much like some major corporations, and are exploiting workers as well. For instance, a mandatory portion of a public school system workers pay  used to go directly to support the Democratic Party. in the late eighties, early nineties, after much resistance, it was no longer referred to as going to the Party, but you had no choice, and no explanation as to where it went, as I recall.
      Zip, Do you think that unions have attained so much political might that they have any power to influence voters who might vote the way the unions want them to, not for the good of state or the entire country, for all people, but for fear of losing their jobs? 
      Were programs like OSHA  formed to address the same issues that unions champion, that unions have become a redundancy? Great and needed in the beginning, but expensive to the worker for something now provided for by law?
      Zip, thanks again for presenting something I know little about. Something to chew on.
   

     
       I am not for unions, I am for workers, I was hoping to convey that in my post. No one makes money without workers, I couldnt make a dime without my employees, the stores would have been shuttered...I NEEDED them as much as they needed me. Unions today are political machines I agree an the union boss's are every bit as bad as the CEO's

       Why do you think osha is law, why do you think it was created. Because Company Owners and corporations wouldnt  spend the  money, need to keep their workers safe and provide a safe work environment....which brings me to another point I made...Corporations and companies cannot be allowed to be totally unregulated...they proved they are not trustworthy and some still prove that with the laws and regulations in place. Some hear harp incessantly about big business and small need NO regulations, nonesense if they didnt have any regulations we would soon be right back to the environement that started the unions in the first place.
       Wheres the greed heh, hard to imagine you needed to ask that question. The greed isnt the entity Worldcom, or GE the greed eminates from the decision makers. The skillings, lays, the CFOs who dont OWN the company, they didnt take the risks or make the investment...they have stocks yes just like everyone else does and they have a CONTRACT...thats says even if they FAIL and screw all their employees they get THEIRS and the better their numbers look the more THEY GET...thats the problem...thats the greed, that promotes cookin the books that promotes crime and not giving a shit what their actions do to other human beings...thats why there MUST be laws and regulations...
       For a couple of years on LNF and another political forum I read post after post about unions and this one makes to much and the need to get rid of regulations and laws that impede big business before I said a word about it....Someone needed to put some reality to the subject someone besides sioux rebel needed to tell them HOLD ON corporations and companies and business owners dont all have halos and all union workers and unions dont have have horns...its a two way street...but theres a few posters on here that would choke to death on those words rather than have them come out of their mouth.
     

Quote from: arpad on December 15, 2010, 07:06:06 AM
Try not to be too smug. The fall hurts more from a greater height.

First, unions didn't come about because of sweatshops. If that were the case there would've been unions in ancient Egypt and pretty much every country in every period in history. Unions are nothing more then a means by which a relatively small number of people screw a much larger number of people out of not very much per person. The only way a relatively small number of people can successfully screw a larger number of people is via the use of political power. Otherwise the people being screwed say "screw you" and find a more pleasant relationship.

Second, I don't hate unions nor do I bash them although if I wanted to I'd certainly have the experience to do so on a factual basis having been a member of two unions, the Pressmen and the UAW. Oh yeah, I watched my dad screwed out of a lot of money by a union he belonged too. As a VP of the PBA you either saw "brothers" being screwed or participated in the screwing. I know more then enough about unions to know that the truth is one or the other but not neither.

My beef with unions is that they're parasitic in nature. Like a leach or a mosquito.

Sorry if that offends you but if you can come up with some value unions bring to free enterprise you'll be a lot smarter then every union defender to date.

Even in your defense of unions the focus is on you. What you got in terms of pay and benefits. But that's just a rationalization to avoid coming to terms with the fact that you didn't earn what you got, you just got it because you had the power to take it. You want to celebrate the goodies you got because you were in a position to twist arms? That's your privilege but I'm not going to participate.

Of course most union people, especially when no one else is around, don't bother with the rationalizations. They take pleasure in knowing they've gotten what they didn't earn and are happy to go back and get more. Hey, who wouldn't? Right?

My interest in unions is really academic. I want to understand what unions are, where they came from and what the future holds for them. That's why I made my predictions. Not because I hate unions but because I believe I understand unions and what brought them into being. I'm playing scientist by making a prediction. If my prediction turns out I'm a happy guy because it means I'm right in my hypothesis. I'm also glad because some degree of injustice will have gone out of the world as well but I'm not responsible for that happening so my feelings are about the same as they are when it stops raining on my picnic; I'm glad but not because I'm responsible.

I'm going to guess that either your chuckle has been erased to be replaced by a look of slack-jawed amazement it the pure light of my brilliance or you've fallen asleep. In any case, off to do other things.

  Provide proof to your claim that worldcom etc employees all found other jobs

Quote from: Solar on December 15, 2010, 06:22:45 AM
Good point Eyes, Unions are in many cases bigger and stronger than the business they infect.
Based on Zips description of an evil greedy corporate monster, they have become the very thing they set out to destroy.

Quite the conundrum.

   I never said unions are good now...what I am saying that all of you that tell me how good corps and companies are...are wrong, very simple solar..

    There are thousands upon thousands of companies that co exist with their unions with no problems at all.

    Everyone here loves to bash the auto union and you will get no argument from me that they SUCK....but you will get an argument that they and the workers ruined gm and chrysler all by themselves.....GM and chrysler was ruined by the management always being behind the curve with what americans wanted to buy...they got stuck on suvs and stayed there and it KILLED THEM...they could never build a decent small car to compete with anything toyota honda or hyundai made till recently....those companies were run like shit and the boss's loved their excess's.

Zip,
      I understand you are for workers, not unions. I concur. My question may have been lost in the length of my post.
      Do you agree that many unions have become redundant to the laws and regulations that have been put in place by the United States government?

Quote from: zip on December 16, 2010, 04:13:24 AM
  Provide proof to your claim that worldcom etc employees all found other jobs

Gotcha. You don't have anything worthwhile to respond with so you'll respond with bullshit.

Quote from: arpad on December 13, 2010, 05:31:24 AM

As for Afghanistan, and Pakistan, no time. Got to go shovel some snow but both of them will succumb to the rapid drop in the price of consumer electronics. People like Ossama Bin Ladin depend on the isolation of poor people. If people have access to a the wider world out there it becomes much clearer that the message Al Queda is peddling isn't nearly as widely-supported at Ossama makes out. When every kid's got a cell phone and can see/read/listen to whatever he wants how are you going to make sure the only message they get is yours?

You ARE BATTING A THOUSAND!!!!!


I always said the best way to catch OBL would be to drop a few million pre programed cell phones in Waziristan.

The internet and cellphones will defeat those people, that is why they are so against them.


Billy