House Freedom Caucus files petition for Obamacare 'clean repeal'

Started by Bronx, August 11, 2017, 11:42:08 AM

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topside

Quote from: Solar on August 16, 2017, 04:50:08 PM
Yeah, that's the Conservative thing to do, run away. :rolleyes:
You float this magical illusion that "some kind of "deal" can be struck" yet failed in explaining what that entails. Go ahead, give it a shot, I've been waiting to hear your plan, but all you do is claim that I don't get it, get what?

Here's a simple fact, give them an inch and they'll take 100 miles, then compromise and give you a pittance of what you demand.
We've been down this road the last 3 decades and you still live under the illusion you can work with these scum.

You claim we're in agreement with full repeal, so why are you looking for a compromise with the enemy? You make absolutely no sense whatsoever, because being Conservative means working from a set of core values and principles, and in this case, that means no govt intrusion into the free market place.
Remember how much cheaper HC was before Commiecare? So why in the world, (while we have the RINO on the run), are you willing to give into these scum?

All business works off a profit and loss system and hospitals are one of those entities, doctors too, and they will gladly take cash and give you the best care far cheaper. The cut insurance takes out of his payment for your care is close to half, so you can work a better deal by paying cash yourself, assuming govt doesn't stand in the way.

I get it, you think there's a solution, problem is, it somehow involves govt.
So here's the way it works, you go to a doctor, you pay cash, you need surgery, he calls a hospital, he explains that you are willing to pay cash, they rent him a surgical facility, it's that simple, you just cut out the middle man, the insurance company.

So why in the world are you wanting govt involved in something that's between you, your doctor and the hospital?
Do you even understand this subject? Something tells me you do not and that's why you're tripping and stumbling through this thread.

I get it, you think there's a solution, problem is, it involves govt meddling.

Well, if you call working toward a clean repeal government meddling, then I understand you. I don't run - but I don't keep running at brick walls either. A few falls tells me that I should find a more productive vector. I respect you Solar but sometimes you get so stubborn. Probably comes with the age. I've yet to see you ever admit you are wrong on any point. But the value you add exceeds the cost - so you're worth the trouble.  :cool:

BTW - medicare and medicaid also need to go. More government meddling. It's a ponzi scheme. But good luck with that - right. The only way it will go is when it collapses hard - after about 10000 attempt to prop it up.

Also - to some of the other comments. Thanks for the response. It does seem nearly impossible to repeal an entitlement in the US culture. It's because we seem to act like a democracy even though we're not. That selfish nature dominates many / most in our nation and can't get past itself. When you get right down to it, that's the root cause of all of the HC gap.

Solar

Quote from: topside on August 17, 2017, 11:03:46 AM
Well, if you call working toward a clean repeal government meddling, then I understand you. I don't run - but I don't keep running at brick walls either. A few falls tell me that I should find a more productive vector. I respect you Solar but sometimes you get so stubborn. Probably comes with the age.
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Right you are, and it's backed by wisdom.
QuoteI've yet to see you ever admit you are wrong on any point.
That's because I'm never wrong where Conservatism is concerned.

QuoteBut the value you add exceeds the cost - so you're worth the trouble.  :cool:
Wait, I'm not all that irritating? I'll have to work on that. :biggrin:

QuoteBTW - medicare and medicaid also need to go. More government meddling. It's a ponzi scheme. But good luck with that - right. The only way it will go is when it collapses hard - after about 10000 attempt to prop it up.
That's kind of been my point all along, once a social program gets a green light, there's no reversing it.

QuoteAlso - to some of the other comments. Thanks for the response. It does seem nearly impossible to repeal an entitlement in the US culture. It's because we seem to act like a democracy even though we're not. That selfish nature dominates many / most in our nation and can't get past itself. When you get right down to it, that's the root cause of all of the HC gap.
And this is why I've been hammering the point, that you can't compromise, the Marxists see this as a weakness and exploit it.
The only way we're going to stop this leftward downfall, is if we stand our ground and quit looking for middle ground within to work.

A perfect example is our recent history of the last 70 years in the way the left demands the world, and the gOP compromised and gave a little acreage.
It's time we stopped and demanded the world for ourselves and make the scum compromise for a change.
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supsalemgr

I do not want to derail the primary subject of this thread, but I am going to vent.

Notice we are hearing a lot about a "clean" healthcare bill and a "clean" tax bill. "Clean" has apparently become the exception in Washington. Damn, shouldn't every bill be "clean"? However congress critters have to add their own bells and whistles to expand the national debt. Throw them all out.

Thanks, now back to original thread.
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Solar

Quote from: supsalemgr on August 17, 2017, 11:37:37 AM
I do not want to derail the primary subject of this thread, but I am going to vent.

Notice we are hearing a lot about a "clean" healthcare bill and a "clean" tax bill. "Clean" has apparently become the exception in Washington. Damn, shouldn't every bill be "clean"? However congress critters have to add their own bells and whistles to expand the national debt. Throw them all out.

Thanks, now back to original thread.
You're right, "Clean" is the new disguise term for writing new Legislation from scratch and throwing on trailers Bills to get the pork they can't get with the existing Bills.
Which begs the question, Why do we need a "Clean Repeal Bill" when one has already been put to a vote?
What's in this so called "Clean Bill", what's different from the first one demanding all of Commiecare be heaped on the bonfire?
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Hoofer

Quote from: Solar on August 17, 2017, 11:44:39 AM
You're right, "Clean" is the new disguise term for writing new Legislation from scratch and throwing on trailers Bills to get the pork they can't get with the existing Bills.
Which begs the question, Why do we need a "Clean Repeal Bill" when one has already been put to a vote?
What's in this so called "Clean Bill", what's different from the first one demanding all of Commiecare be heaped on the bonfire?

My thoughts, exactly.  Interesting discussion.   Sincerely hope we get the government OUT of the insurance business, so they quit screwing up the Healthcare - the very thing that matters.
All animals are created equal; Some just take longer to cook.   Survival is keeping an eye on those around you...

Solar

Quote from: Hoofer on August 17, 2017, 12:26:36 PM
My thoughts, exactly.  Interesting discussion.   Sincerely hope we get the government OUT of the insurance business, so they quit screwing up the Healthcare - the very thing that matters.
Though I'd love that, I doubt that's ever going to happen. It's like unions, it's a cancer that keeps looking for new victims.
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topside

Quote from: supsalemgr on August 17, 2017, 11:37:37 AM
I do not want to derail the primary subject of this thread, but I am going to vent.

Notice we are hearing a lot about a "clean" healthcare bill and a "clean" tax bill. "Clean" has apparently become the exception in Washington. Damn, shouldn't every bill be "clean"? However congress critters have to add their own bells and whistles to expand the national debt. Throw them all out.

Thanks, now back to original thread.

Hmm. Maybe Sup found the disconnect. My understanding of a "clean HC repeal" means that the current Obamacare law is repealed and there is no replacement. HC returns to the private sector under capitalistic competition. I'll avoid the use of "clean" from now on ... Solar beat it out of me! Rather, we simply want to work toward a full repeal of Obamacare and return the HC market and it's related insurance market to the free market. That's exactly what I've been trying to say in this thread - maybe the "clean" term was confusing the issue? This thread was trying to find ways to motivate that and the finding was that the best way is probably to pit those who want entitlements against those who want low costs ... I think low costs have more representation and could be a catalyst for the simple full repeal.

One surprise in the thread is how Solar separated insurance from HC. I do try and just work directly with the HC organizations in Ohio since I have no classical insurance. I hate insurance companies. But HC costs are high and the insurance products are the norm. So it's more nominal to be coupled than not. While I appreciate your view, Solar, that insurance companies (probably because they are under lots of govt. regulations) are about govt. control, there is no real movement that I've seen to get rid of them or deregulate them. Insurance companies with no government involvement and acting on their own will would be a conservative's view of insurance companies. That's a far reach today - maybe someday. But if you, Solar, or others act directly with the doctors and hospitals then it's definitely more supported of the Conservative way than working through insurance companies. But, unless you're really wealthy, one heart issue that requires surgery is more than most of us can pay. So a real conservative would either take out a loan and pay it back or realize they can't afford it and choose to die. Most people, even conservatives, don't think in those terms. Insurance is a synonomous with HC these days. So the point about removing insurance companies from the equation is pure from a conservative viewpoint, but not the normative reality. There are many more conservative hoops we'll have to make progress on before we see much progress on "conservative" insurance companies.   

And, Sup, you bring up a good point about the coming tax reforms (we hope are coming). I've not heard "clean" associated with "tax reform" but maybe I'm out of date. But a reduction in taxes with a related reduction in either / or in laws and regulations amounts to reducing government control - a move toward conservatism.

Oh ... we also need to repeal Social Security ... another ponzi scheme that will be defended by Congress to the teeth until it becomes unsupportable and fails hard.

We were only a few votes from full repeal. Seems like it's more workable than some of these other issues. 



Solar

Quote from: topside on August 17, 2017, 05:45:15 PM
Hmm. Maybe Sup found the disconnect. My understanding of a "clean HC repeal" means that the current Obamacare law is repealed and there is no replacement. HC returns to the private sector under capitalistic competition. I'll avoid the use of "clean" from now on ... Solar beat it out of me! Rather, we simply want to work toward a full repeal of Obamacare and return the HC market and it's related insurance market to the free market. That's exactly what I've been trying to say in this thread - maybe the "clean" term was confusing the issue? This thread was trying to find ways to motivate that and the finding was that the best way is probably to pit those who want entitlements against those who want low costs ... I think low costs have more representation and could be a catalyst for the simple full repeal.

One surprise in the thread is how Solar separated insurance from HC. I do try and just work directly with the HC organizations in Ohio since I have no classical insurance. I hate insurance companies. But HC costs are high and the insurance products are the norm. So it's more nominal to be coupled than not. While I appreciate your view, Solar, that insurance companies (probably because they are under lots of govt. regulations) are about govt. control, there is no real movement that I've seen to get rid of them or deregulate them. Insurance companies with no government involvement and acting on their own will would be a conservative's view of insurance companies. That's a far reach today - maybe someday. But if you, Solar, or others act directly with the doctors and hospitals then it's definitely more supported of the Conservative way than working through insurance companies. But, unless you're really wealthy, one heart issue that requires surgery is more than most of us can pay. So a real conservative would either take out a loan and pay it back or realize they can't afford it and choose to die. Most people, even conservatives, don't think in those terms. Insurance is a synonomous with HC these days. So the point about removing insurance companies from the equation is pure from a conservative viewpoint, but not the normative reality. There are many more conservative hoops we'll have to make progress on before we see much progress on "conservative" insurance companies.   

And, Sup, you bring up a good point about the coming tax reforms (we hope are coming). I've not heard "clean" associated with "tax reform" but maybe I'm out of date. But a reduction in taxes with a related reduction in either / or in laws and regulations amounts to reducing government control - a move toward conservatism.

Oh ... we also need to repeal Social Security ... another ponzi scheme that will be defended by Congress to the teeth until it becomes unsupportable and fails hard.

We were only a few votes from full repeal. Seems like it's more workable than some of these other issues.
Again, the problem isn't HC, it's govt forcing people to purchase insurance, that's not how it was before Commiecare, but now insurance has become synonymous with HC, giving the illusion that one can't see a doctor without it, and to date, this still is not the case.

Health insurance is no different than any other insurance, you purchase it if you need it. Take hurricane policies, where I live I don't need it, so I don't purchase it.
This is the problem with Commiecare, it mandates that even women in their 80s buy pregnancy insurance, and guess why that is?
That's right, insurance companies profit heavily from selling you shit you don't need.

So you raise the point about heart surgery and claim you'd have to be rich to afford it on your own, yes, this is true, but if you're in your 20s and healthy, you'd be an idiot to purchase it over that of catastrophic insurance. (It's Hurricane insurance all over again)
Instead, you should take that money and invest it for when the day comes you may need to purchase HC.

Even though you say you now see a separation between HC and insurance, it would appear in your mind you still conflate the two as necessary evils, regardless.
Try and wrap your mind around the fact that it's the insurance and pharmaceutical companies were the ones behind designing Commiecare in the first place.
Now, with that knowledge in mind, look at the Establishment RINO and try and guess why they're fighting to keep certain mandates in place and refuse a full repeal.



























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