Conservative Political Forum

General Category => Political Discussion and Debate => Topic started by: walkstall on November 10, 2012, 09:36:53 AM

Title: US donates $34 million to UN plan to help Syria
Post by: walkstall on November 10, 2012, 09:36:53 AM
b o at work.    :thumbdown:


GENEVA — A U.N. plan to provide $836 million in emergency aid to Syrians battered by their nation's civil war ran into funding problems Friday despite an additional U.S. donation of $34 million.


more @
http://xfinity.comcast.net/articles/news-world-europe/20121109/Syria.Aid/ (http://xfinity.comcast.net/articles/news-world-europe/20121109/Syria.Aid/)

Title: Re: US donates $34 million to UN plan to help Syria
Post by: Sci Fi Fan on November 11, 2012, 06:49:08 AM
Wait...how is this a bad thing?   :huh:

Does international cooperation escape your mind?  Is America supposed to feign omnipotence?
Title: Re: US donates $34 million to UN plan to help Syria
Post by: republicans2 on November 11, 2012, 07:01:25 AM
Quote from: Sci Fi Fan on November 11, 2012, 06:49:08 AM
Wait...how is this a bad thing?   :huh:

Does international cooperation escape your mind?  Is America supposed to feign omnipotence?

So we borrow money to give to others?  Others that more than likely despise us?  When we are digging out from beneath our own tragedies and people complaining about their standard of living?  How much money was sent to us after Sandy from other nations?
Title: Re: US donates $34 million to UN plan to help Syria
Post by: Sci Fi Fan on November 11, 2012, 07:04:15 AM
Quote from: republicans2 on November 11, 2012, 07:01:25 AM
So we borrow money to give to others?  Others that more than likely despise us?  When we are digging out from beneath our own tragedies and people complaining about their standard of living?  How much money was sent to us after Sandy from other nations?

Whine all you want about the current economic condition; you're still better off than >99.99% of the world.  This is the equivalent of a rich person complaining why nobody gives him charity.
Title: Re: US donates $34 million to UN plan to help Syria
Post by: kramarat on November 11, 2012, 07:07:08 AM
Quote from: Sci Fi Fan on November 11, 2012, 06:49:08 AM
Wait...how is this a bad thing?   :huh:

Does international cooperation escape your mind?  Is America supposed to feign omnipotence?

Somehow, our money has a way of finding it's way to the bad guys. The UN is also a corrupt, criminal organization.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/44171605/ns/politics/t/taliban-criminals-get-million-us-taxes/ (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/44171605/ns/politics/t/taliban-criminals-get-million-us-taxes/)

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-18563_162-20100094/u-s-money-is-talibans-no-2-revenue-source/ (http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-18563_162-20100094/u-s-money-is-talibans-no-2-revenue-source/)

http://frontpagemag.com/2012/dgreenfield/obama-funds-terrorists/ (http://frontpagemag.com/2012/dgreenfield/obama-funds-terrorists/)

Until we get some transparency and answers from the Obama administration, we need to put a lock on any funding that is going to the Middle East. They have not been honest with us. No more cash until they are..........if then.
Title: Re: US donates $34 million to UN plan to help Syria
Post by: Sci Fi Fan on November 11, 2012, 07:10:59 AM
But...Reagan sold money weapons to terrorists!   :unsure: :love:
Title: Re: US donates $34 million to UN plan to help Syria
Post by: kramarat on November 11, 2012, 07:22:15 AM
Quote from: Sci Fi Fan on November 11, 2012, 07:10:59 AM
But...Reagan sold money to terrorists!   :unsure: :love:

You're dodging again.

Reagan sold money to terrorists? How much did he get for it?

If he got them to buy money for more than it was worth, it would be a good deal, and the terrorists would have less money than they started with. :biggrin:
Title: Re: US donates $34 million to UN plan to help Syria
Post by: Yawn on November 11, 2012, 07:32:26 AM
Quote from: Sci Fi Fan on November 11, 2012, 06:49:08 AM
Wait...how is this a bad thing?   :huh:

Does international cooperation escape your mind?  Is America supposed to feign omnipotence?

The Syrian "freedom fighters" are terrorists, hostile to the few remaining Christians and Jews.  They are a part of Obama's plan to establish a Caliphate in the Middle East.  Look how well it wen for Egypt and Libya.  Muslims in the Middle East don't understand "democracy" any more than Democrats in the USA.  For them "democracy" is a way to acquire power over their enemies through Sharia Law.

No Arab nation should be subsidized by the USA.
Title: Re: US donates $34 million to UN plan to help Syria
Post by: Sci Fi Fan on November 11, 2012, 07:34:22 AM
Quote from: kramarat on November 11, 2012, 07:22:15 AM
You're dodging again.

I don't see how your random links prove anything, since they don't control against the efficiency of purely American aid and shipments.  Or did you think that intercontinental transfers of resources were supposed to be 100% efficient?

Quote
Reagan sold money to terrorists? How much did he get for it?

If he got them to buy money for more than it was worth, it would be a good deal, and the terrorists would have less money than they started with. :biggrin:

Wow, nice job missing the point. 
Title: Re: US donates $34 million to UN plan to help Syria
Post by: republicans2 on November 11, 2012, 07:35:38 AM
Quote from: Sci Fi Fan on November 11, 2012, 07:04:15 AM
Whine all you want about the current economic condition; you're still better off than >99.99% of the world.  This is the equivalent of a rich person complaining why nobody gives him charity.

You didn't bother to answer.  If we are rich, why so much debt?  Are you really rich if you have to borrow from others to exist? 
Title: Re: US donates $34 million to UN plan to help Syria
Post by: kramarat on November 11, 2012, 07:39:20 AM
Quote from: Sci Fi Fan on November 11, 2012, 07:34:22 AM
Dutch barrier forts


I don't see how your random links prove anything, since they don't control against the efficiency of purely American aid and shipments.  Or did you think that intercontinental transfers of resources were supposed to be 100% efficient?

Wow, nice job missing the point.

We're not talking about efficiency, dummy. We're talking about US money going to directly to terrorist groups. Even the left wing media sees it. That's why I linked to them.
Title: Re: US donates $34 million to UN plan to help Syria
Post by: Sci Fi Fan on November 11, 2012, 07:42:01 AM
Quote from: kramarat on November 11, 2012, 07:39:20 AM
We're not talking about efficiency, dummy. We're talking about US money going to directly to terrorist groups. Even the left wing media sees it. That's why I linked to them.

You have an odd definition of "directly".

Quote

But until a special task force assembled by Gen. David Petraeus began its investigation last year, the coalition had little visibility into the connections many Afghan companies and their vast network of subcontractors had with insurgents and criminals — groups military officials call "malign actors."

In a murky process known as "reverse money laundering," payments from the U.S. pass through companies hired by the military for transportation, construction, power projects, fuel and other services to businesses and individuals with ties to the insurgency or criminal networks, according to interviews and task force documents obtained by the AP.

"Funds begin as clean monies," according to one document, then "either through direct payments or through the flow of funds in the subcontractor network, the monies become tainted."

I see no indication that the United Nations is directly funding the taliban.  You'd realize this if you were able to read your own sources.
Title: Re: US donates $34 million to UN plan to help Syria
Post by: kramarat on November 11, 2012, 07:44:54 AM
Quote from: Sci Fi Fan on November 11, 2012, 07:42:01 AM
You have an odd definition of "directly".

Does it matter? If our money is going to fund terrorists, it's time to stop sending money. Is that confusing for you? :rolleyes:
Title: Re: US donates $34 million to UN plan to help Syria
Post by: Sci Fi Fan on November 11, 2012, 07:47:24 AM
Quote from: kramarat on November 11, 2012, 07:44:54 AM
Does it matter? If our money is going to fund terrorists, it's time to stop sending money. Is that confusing for you? :rolleyes:

So by this logic, if any proportion of money sent to charities is lost or wasted, charity is altogether useless.   :rolleyes:
Title: Re: US donates $34 million to UN plan to help Syria
Post by: kramarat on November 11, 2012, 07:49:50 AM
QuoteI see no indication that the United Nations is directly funding the taliban.  You'd realize this if you were able to read your own sources.

I never said that. I said that the UN is a corrupt and criminal organization, which they are.

http://www.defenddemocracy.org/united-nations-corruption-and-the-need-for-reform/ (http://www.defenddemocracy.org/united-nations-corruption-and-the-need-for-reform/)

We also need to stop funding the UN..............which is a completely different issue from funding terrorists.
Title: Re: US donates $34 million to UN plan to help Syria
Post by: kramarat on November 11, 2012, 07:52:24 AM
Quote from: Sci Fi Fan on November 11, 2012, 07:47:24 AM
So by this logic, if any proportion of money sent to charities is lost or wasted, charity is altogether useless.   :rolleyes:

Another shoot and miss...............

We aren't talking about lost or wasted money. We are talking about US taxpayer money, ending up in the hands of terrorists that want to kill us. Please try to stay focused.
Title: Re: US donates $34 million to UN plan to help Syria
Post by: Sci Fi Fan on November 11, 2012, 09:18:43 AM
Quote from: kramarat on November 11, 2012, 07:52:24 AM
We aren't talking about lost or wasted money. We are talking about US taxpayer money, ending up in the hands of terrorists that want to kill us. Please try to stay focused.

You don't understand the fact that the perpetrators of this fraud are Afghan companies, not the UN, according to your own damn sources.
Title: Re: US donates $34 million to UN plan to help Syria
Post by: kramarat on November 11, 2012, 09:39:26 AM
Quote from: Sci Fi Fan on November 11, 2012, 09:18:43 AM
You don't understand the fact that the perpetrators of this fraud are Afghan companies, not the UN, according to your own damn sources.

Sorry. I see you're confused again. My fault. I went into two different topics. Let me clear it up for you............

1) We need to stop giving money to the UN, because they are a corrupt organization.

2) We need to stop funneling money into the mid east, because it ends up in the hands of terrorists.

How's that? :wink:
Title: Re: US donates $34 million to UN plan to help Syria
Post by: Sci Fi Fan on November 11, 2012, 09:57:03 AM
Quote from: kramarat on November 11, 2012, 09:39:26 AM
Sorry. I see you're confused again. My fault. I went into two different topics. Let me clear it up for you............

1) We need to stop giving money to the UN, because they are a corrupt organization.
2) We need to stop funneling money into the mid east, because it ends up in the hands of terrorists.

How's that? :wink:

As clarification: did you support the War in Iraq, and do you support the War in Afghanistan?
Title: Re: US donates $34 million to UN plan to help Syria
Post by: kramarat on November 11, 2012, 10:07:11 AM
Quote from: Sci Fi Fan on November 11, 2012, 09:57:03 AM
As clarification: did you support the War in Iraq, and do you support the War in Afghanistan?

No and no. Not with ground troops anyway. We should have used satellite intelligence, drones, and bomb strikes............every day. Continuing until they were crushed. The wars would have been short, and we would have broken their backs quickly. We should not become involved in "politically correct" warfare. The focus always should to be to destroy our enemies as quickly and efficiently as possible.

Both wars were voted on by republican and democrat members of congress. It was a bipartisan decision.
Title: Re: US donates $34 million to UN plan to help Syria
Post by: Sci Fi Fan on November 11, 2012, 10:09:03 AM
Quote from: kramarat on November 11, 2012, 10:07:11 AM
No and no. Not with ground troops anyway. We should have used satellite intelligence, drones, and bomb strikes............every day. Continuing until they were crushed. The wars would have been short, and we would have broken their backs quickly. We should not become involved in "politically correct" warfare. The focus always should to be to destroy our enemies as quickly and efficiently as possible.

Do you have any idea how much collateral damage that would have caused?

I would note that, if you have such an isolationist foreign policy stance, I don't have much to argue with you over.  I don't necessarily agree, but I don't feel motivated to contest such a position.
Title: Re: US donates $34 million to UN plan to help Syria
Post by: Yawn on November 11, 2012, 10:12:44 AM
Do you have any idea how we fight Nazi Germany?  How Nazi Germany fought Russia?  We no longer have the stomach to fight wars to win.  Because of that, even more people die and suffer.  The Bible talks about Joseph (USA & Britain) fighting as a "Consuming FIRE" to our enemies.  We WERE that, and the world respected the might of the USA.  Not today.
Title: Re: US donates $34 million to UN plan to help Syria
Post by: Sci Fi Fan on November 11, 2012, 10:14:55 AM
Quote from: Yawn on November 11, 2012, 10:12:44 AM
Do you have any idea how we fight Nazi Germany?

One sad chapter that we ignore is how much pro-Nazi-sympathy existed in America.  FDR had to pull lots of strings just to get the Right to agree to ship aid to Britain.

QuoteHow Nazi Germany fought Russia?

By failing epically?

QuoteWe no longer have the stomach to fight wars to win.  Because of that, even more people die and suffer.  The Bible talks about Joseph (USA & Britain) fighting as a "Consuming FIRE" to our enemies.  We WERE that, and the world respected the might of the USA.  Not today.

No, but you see, that's the problem here.  Neo cons are treating the conflicts in the Middle East as Us vs Them wars that can be won through sheer military force.  It's a primitive, and ridiculous notion that you can nation build by bombing shit.

Do you see Costa Rica being bombed by Al Qaeda?
Title: Re: US donates $34 million to UN plan to help Syria
Post by: Yawn on November 11, 2012, 10:20:21 AM
QuoteIt's a primitive, and ridiculous notion that you can nation build by bombing shit.

I'm not interested in nation building.  If an enemy strikes against this country or its citizens abroad, you respond quickly and with devastating strength.  You crush them so they, and other hostile nations will think long and hard about attacking the USA.  It's how you fight to win and minimize future conflicts.
Title: Re: US donates $34 million to UN plan to help Syria
Post by: Sci Fi Fan on November 11, 2012, 10:36:06 AM
Quote from: Yawn on November 11, 2012, 10:20:21 AM
I'm not interested in nation building.  If an enemy strikes against this country or its citizens abroad, you respond quickly and with devastating strength.  You crush them so they, and other hostile nations will think long and hard about attacking the USA.  It's how you fight to win and minimize future conflicts.

Even ignoring the ethics of causing massive civilian casualties just to show your tough you are, this strategy clearly isn't working.  Our approval rating in Pakistan has dropped to 12%.

And here's a newsflash: crazy religious terrorists don't fear us!  Do you seriously think suicide bombers will actually be deterred by military force?  They don't care if they, their families or their country get crushed.  Deterrence doesn't work when your enemy lacks self preservation.
Title: Re: US donates $34 million to UN plan to help Syria
Post by: Cryptic Bert on November 11, 2012, 10:43:58 AM
Quote from: Sci Fi Fan on November 11, 2012, 10:36:06 AM
Even ignoring the ethics of causing massive civilian casualties just to show your tough you are, this strategy clearly isn't working.  Our approval rating in Pakistan has dropped to 12%.

And here's a newsflash: crazy religious terrorists don't fear us!  Do you seriously think suicide bombers will actually be deterred by military force?  They don't care if they, their families or their country get crushed.  Deterrence doesn't work when your enemy lacks self preservation.
So Bush was right then...
Title: Re: US donates $34 million to UN plan to help Syria
Post by: Sci Fi Fan on November 11, 2012, 10:45:12 AM
Quote from: The Boo Man... on November 11, 2012, 10:43:58 AM
So Bush was right then...

No, Bush was wrong.   :mellow:
Title: Re: US donates $34 million to UN plan to help Syria
Post by: Cryptic Bert on November 11, 2012, 10:46:08 AM
Quote from: Sci Fi Fan on November 11, 2012, 10:45:12 AM
No, Bush was wrong.   :mellow:
But now that Obama is in office Bush's policies are right.

Got it.
Title: Re: US donates $34 million to UN plan to help Syria
Post by: kramarat on November 11, 2012, 11:10:38 AM
QuoteAnd here's a newsflash: crazy religious terrorists don't fear us!  Do you seriously think suicide bombers will actually be deterred by military force?  They don't care if they, their families or their country get crushed.  Deterrence doesn't work when your enemy lacks self preservation.

So you do get it!!!

We should have located them and bombed the crap out of them. It wouldn't have taken long for the civilian population to turn their backs on Al Queda, and not allowed them to hide behind women and children. By going there, we made enemies out of ourselves.

How long do you think it would have taken for the people to figure out that every time Al Qaeda showed up, everything got blown up? Not long. They would have run out of hiding places within weeks or months, not years.

I'm sure you're aware that Obama has replaced waterboarding with drone strikes. Maybe you should write him a letter.
Title: Re: US donates $34 million to UN plan to help Syria
Post by: Sci Fi Fan on November 11, 2012, 11:14:54 AM
Quote from: kramarat on November 11, 2012, 11:10:38 AM
So you do get it!!!

We should have located them and bombed the crap out of them. It wouldn't have taken long for the civilian population to turn their backs on Al Queda, and not allowed them to hide behind women and children. By going there, we made enemies out of ourselves.

How long do you think it would have taken for the people to figure out that every time Al Qaeda showed up, everything got blown up? Not long. They would have run out of hiding places within weeks or months, not years.

This is disgusting.

You can't possibly be arguing that we indiscriminately kill civilians ("women and children") to flush Al Qaeda out.

If we do that, we'd be far, far worse than the same terrorists that are supposed to be the bad guys.
Title: Re: US donates $34 million to UN plan to help Syria
Post by: kramarat on November 11, 2012, 11:18:49 AM
Quote from: Sci Fi Fan on November 11, 2012, 11:14:54 AM
This is disgusting.

You can't possibly be arguing that we indiscriminately kill civilians ("women and children") to flush Al Qaeda out.

If we do that, we'd be far, far worse than the same terrorists that are supposed to be the bad guys.

Absolutely not. We only target al qaeda. The rest of the population, (that didn't want to die), would either stay the hell away from them, or kill them themselves.

Pretty simple really.
Title: Re: US donates $34 million to UN plan to help Syria
Post by: mdgiles on November 11, 2012, 11:19:28 AM
Quote from: Sci Fi Fan on November 11, 2012, 10:36:06 AM
Even ignoring the ethics of causing massive civilian casualties just to show your tough you are, this strategy clearly isn't working.  Our approval rating in Pakistan has dropped to 12%.

And here's a newsflash: crazy religious terrorists don't fear us!  Do you seriously think suicide bombers will actually be deterred by military force?  They don't care if they, their families or their country get crushed.  Deterrence doesn't work when your enemy lacks self preservation.
Explain why the United States should worry about the well being of the citizens of terrorist nations when their fellow citizens or government don't? As for crazy religious terrorists, eventually their countrymen will turn on them. When your house ends up getting bombed because "Achmed" down the street wants 72 virgins, eventually the neighborhood will either tire of "Achmed" - or be destroyed along with him. Oh and what do you think our approval rating was in Japan, round about August 7, 1945 - and why should we have cared?
Title: Re: US donates $34 million to UN plan to help Syria
Post by: Sci Fi Fan on November 11, 2012, 11:23:20 AM
Quote from: kramarat on November 11, 2012, 11:18:49 AM
Absolutely not. We only target al qaeda. The rest of the population, (that didn't want to die), would either stay the hell away from them, or kill them themselves.

Pretty simple really.

What makes you think all of Al Qaeda's human shields are willing participants?  What makes you think everybody knows who is a member of Al Qaeda any more than we do?

You're trying desperately hard to justify slaughtering civilians, but you're failing miserably.





Quote from: mdgiles on November 11, 2012, 11:19:28 AM
Explain why the United States should worry about the well being of the citizens of terrorist nations when their fellow citizens or government don't?

That's a rather morally bankrupt position.  So if civilians are oppressed by their government and fellow citizens, they can always rely on the Beacon of Hope and Leader of the Free World for hel-oops!

QuoteAs for crazy religious terrorists, eventually their countrymen will turn on them.  When your house ends up getting bombed because "Achmed" down the street wants 72 virgins, eventually the neighborhood will either tire of "Achmed" - or be destroyed along with him. Oh and what do you think our approval rating was in Japan, round about August 7, 1945 - and why should we have cared?

So you're actually saying that we should bomb (and kill) innocent men, women and children to flush the terrorists out.

Great.  Glad to see the Right reveal its true colors.
Title: Re: US donates $34 million to UN plan to help Syria
Post by: kramarat on November 11, 2012, 11:23:50 AM
Quote from: mdgiles on November 11, 2012, 11:19:28 AM
Explain why the United States should worry about the well being of the citizens of terrorist nations when their fellow citizens or government don't? As for crazy religious terrorists, eventually their countrymen will turn on them. When your house ends up getting bombed because "Achmed" down the street wants 72 virgins, eventually the neighborhood will either tire of "Achmed" - or be destroyed along with him. Oh and what do you think our approval rating was in Japan, round about August 7, 1945 - and why should we have cared?

Exactly. Pakistan was hiding Bin Laden, and scifi is worried about US approval ratings. What a joke.
Title: Re: US donates $34 million to UN plan to help Syria
Post by: kramarat on November 11, 2012, 11:29:20 AM
QuoteWhat makes you think all of Al Qaeda's human shields are willing participants?  What makes you think everybody knows who is a member of Al Qaeda any more than we do?

You don't think much of those people, do you?

We're talking small towns and villages for the most part. You are assuming that, not only do the people not know each other, but that they are too stupid to recognize that a gang of armed strangers showing up, might be a threat.

I think they're smarter than that. You are a racist.
Title: Re: US donates $34 million to UN plan to help Syria
Post by: Sci Fi Fan on November 11, 2012, 11:32:09 AM
Quote from: kramarat on November 11, 2012, 11:29:20 AM
You don't think much of those people, do you?

Given that you clearly have no qualms with slaughtering them at the slightest excuse, you shouldn't be running your mouth.

Quote
We're talking small towns and villages for the most part. You are assuming that, not only do the people not know each other, but that they are too stupid to recognize that a gang of armed strangers showing up, might be a threat.

Wait, so you admit that Al Qaeda has weapons and arnaments that would allow them to subjugate and hold villages hostage...what, are you expecting them to rise up and risk their livelihood to attack the group of heavily armed men FOR THE USA!!!!?

Do you complain that the police just blow up the building that a gunman is holding a dozen civilians hostage in?  After all, according to you, the hostages deserve to die.   :rolleyes:

Quote
I think they're smarter than that. You are a racist.

Me?   :lol:

Here's a hypothetical:

Do you think you would support such a tactic used against a predominately white European nation?
Title: Re: US donates $34 million to UN plan to help Syria
Post by: Darth Fife on November 11, 2012, 11:32:55 AM
FUCK SYRIA!
Title: Re: US donates $34 million to UN plan to help Syria
Post by: kramarat on November 11, 2012, 11:40:32 AM
QuoteDo you think you would support such a tactic used against a predominately white European nation?

Absolutely!! Ask the Germans.

But there's a better way. The countries where al qaeda operates should just institute gun laws. That would stop them.

They work so well in the US, that the bad guys would just turn in their weapons. No need for war.
Title: Re: US donates $34 million to UN plan to help Syria
Post by: mdgiles on November 11, 2012, 11:43:44 AM
Quote from: Sci Fi Fan on November 11, 2012, 11:23:20 AM
What makes you think all of Al Qaeda's human shields are willing participants?  What makes you think everybody knows who is a member of Al Qaeda any more than we do?
You're trying desperately hard to justify slaughtering civilians, but you're failing miserably.
Have you read a history of the Second World War recently? Obviously you haven't, since you're trying to re-argue questions that were settled seventy years ago.
QuoteThat's a rather morally bankrupt position.  So if civilians are oppressed by their government and fellow citizens, they can always rely on the Beacon of Hope and Leader of the Free World for hel-oops!
So it's up to us to save them while taking care that we harm as few of them as possible. Hmmm, here's an idea, why don't "they" take some steps on their own to free themselves of that tyranny.
QuoteSo you're actually saying that we should bomb (and kill) innocent men, women and children to flush the terrorists out.
And they're innocent because they only cheer on the terrorists, and give them monetary, and other support; as opposed to actually going on suicide bomb missions.
QuoteGreat.  Glad to see the Right reveal its true colors.
Yes, we on the right thing that war is a filthy , dirty, business, where hard choices have to be made; as opposed to the parlor game leftists believe it is.
Title: Re: US donates $34 million to UN plan to help Syria
Post by: Sci Fi Fan on November 11, 2012, 11:44:25 AM
It looks like you just decided to skip defending your "massacre women and children to flush Al Qaeda out!" lunacy.

Quote from: kramarat on November 11, 2012, 11:40:32 AM
They work so well in the US, that the bad guys would just turn in their weapons. No need for war.

If you're going to change the subject, take into mind that nations with far stricter gun control laws than over here have far lower crime rates.
Title: Re: US donates $34 million to UN plan to help Syria
Post by: mdgiles on November 11, 2012, 12:24:13 PM
QuoteIf you're going to change the subject, take into mind that nations with far stricter gun control laws than over here have far lower crime rates.
And those are?
Title: Re: US donates $34 million to UN plan to help Syria
Post by: Sci Fi Fan on November 11, 2012, 12:29:28 PM
Quote from: mdgiles on November 11, 2012, 12:24:13 PM
And those are?

The UK, Canada, Japan, France, Poland, (yes) China.  And that's just off the drop of a hat.
Title: Re: US donates $34 million to UN plan to help Syria
Post by: kramarat on November 11, 2012, 01:03:18 PM
QuoteIt looks like you just decided to skip defending your "massacre women and children to flush Al Qaeda out!" lunacy.

Go tell your president. It seems that your pimp daddy has developed a taste for blood. :biggrin:

I want him to keep on killing. I can't disagree with him on this one.


http://www.cjr.org/feature/covering_obamas_secret_war.php?page=all (http://www.cjr.org/feature/covering_obamas_secret_war.php?page=all)

http://www.cnn.com/2012/09/25/world/asia/pakistan-us-drone-strikes/index.html (http://www.cnn.com/2012/09/25/world/asia/pakistan-us-drone-strikes/index.html)

http://www.worldpolicy.org/blog/2012/06/18/collateral-damage-losing-war-al-qaida (http://tp://www.worldpolicy.org/blog/2012/06/18/collateral-damage-losing-war-al-qaida)
Title: Re: US donates $34 million to UN plan to help Syria
Post by: Sci Fi Fan on November 11, 2012, 01:05:12 PM
Quote from: kramarat on November 11, 2012, 01:03:18 PM
Go tell your president. It seems that your pimp daddy has developed a taste for blood. :biggrin:

Oh, you think that's funny?

Quote
I want him to keep on killing. I can't disagree with him on this one.

Wait, you just responded to a statement about killing women and children...

So you want him to continue killing innocent civilians?

Wow, you're majorly fucked up.
Title: Re: US donates $34 million to UN plan to help Syria
Post by: kramarat on November 11, 2012, 01:12:26 PM
Quote from: Sci Fi Fan on November 11, 2012, 01:05:12 PM
Oh, you think that's funny?

Wait, you just responded to a statement about killing women and children...

So you want him to continue killing innocent civilians?

Wow, you're majorly fucked up.

You got me on that one. I didn't realize he was targeting innocent civilians.

Do you wish you didn't vote for him? :cry:

TO LATE  :ttoung: :lol: :ttoung: :lol: :ttoung: :lol:
Title: Re: US donates $34 million to UN plan to help Syria
Post by: Sci Fi Fan on November 11, 2012, 01:14:57 PM
Quote from: kramarat on November 11, 2012, 01:12:26 PM
You got me on that one. I didn't realize he was targeting innocent civilians.

Do you wish you didn't vote for him? :cry:

TO LATE  :ttoung: :lol: :ttoung: :lol: :ttoung: :lol:

Whether or not the premise of your argument (that Obama intentionally kills civilians) is correct has no relevance to the fact that you believed this premise to be true and thereby supported such killings.

Really, your foreign policy stance is effectively that of the ancient Romans. 
Title: Re: US donates $34 million to UN plan to help Syria
Post by: kramarat on November 11, 2012, 01:21:34 PM
Quote from: Sci Fi Fan on November 11, 2012, 01:14:57 PM
Whether or not the premise of your argument (that Obama intentionally kills civilians) is correct has no relevance to the fact that you believed this premise to be true and thereby supported such killings.

Really, your foreign policy stance is effectively that of the ancient Romans.

I never believed that Obama intentionally targeted civilians. In fact, I didn't know how many he was taking out until I read the links I just posted. It was a learning experience. Obama is far more hated in the middle east, than Bush was. By golly, your pimp daddy is fomenting American hatred. That sucks.

Are you calling our commander in chief a cold blooded murderer? I sure hope not. We're looking at 4 more years of these killings.
Title: Re: US donates $34 million to UN plan to help Syria
Post by: kramarat on November 11, 2012, 01:32:37 PM
Darn scifi. I can only imagine your disappointment. :sad:

If only our media would have vetted Mr Obama.......................maybe we would have known.
Title: Re: US donates $34 million to UN plan to help Syria
Post by: mdgiles on November 11, 2012, 01:52:55 PM
Quote from: Sci Fi Fan on November 11, 2012, 12:29:28 PM
The UK, Canada, Japan, France, Poland, (yes) China.  And that's just off the drop of a hat.
The crime rate is worse in the UK and has been for rising - unlike ours which is falling for years.
Japan, Poland, and China were, and in the case of China still, are/were police states, where the citizenry were never a free people who were allowed to own weapons.
France is a case unto it self, they've gone through three monarchies, two empires, and six republics, in the period in which the US has had one stable government. I would be willing to guess that the French government is simply afraid of the people.
Different countries, different histories.
Title: Re: US donates $34 million to UN plan to help Syria
Post by: Sci Fi Fan on November 11, 2012, 02:01:00 PM
Quote from: mdgiles on November 11, 2012, 01:52:55 PM
The crime rate is worse in the UK

Wha-?

The intentional homicide rate in the UK is 1.2 per 100,000 people, compared to 4.2 per 100,000 people.

Quote
Japan, Poland, and China were, and in the case of China still, are/were police states, where the citizenry were never a free people who were allowed to own weapons.

Doesn't change the fact that their crime rates are lower, which was my point.

Quote
France is a case unto it self, they've gone through three monarchies, two empires, and six republics, in the period in which the US has had one stable government. I would be willing to guess that the French government is simply afraid of the people.

But - but, France is an Evil Socialist STate!  :unsure:

Quote
Different countries, different histories.

This would be a legitimate argument if I only cited a singular example to prove my point.  But it's clear that, as a general trend, countries with stricter gun control laws have lower homicide rates.  It's difficult for you to accept, but the numbers speak for themselves.
Title: Re: US donates $34 million to UN plan to help Syria
Post by: mdgiles on November 11, 2012, 02:36:53 PM
Quote from: Sci Fi Fan on November 11, 2012, 02:01:00 PM
Wha-?

The intentional homicide rate in the UK is 1.2 per 100,000 people, compared to 4.2 per 100,000 people.
Try reading for comprehension.
QuoteThe crime rate is worse in the UK and has been for rising - unlike ours which is falling for years.
In any case the US gun murder rate is currently 2.97 per 100,000, down from 5.6 per 100,000 in 2001
in the UK the current rate is 0.03 per 100,000, but it has grow 89% in the last decade.
But you are right it is much lower than in the US. However they seen a rise in the types of crimes usually not seen in the US. For example in the US, robberies seldom happen when the owners are home. Home invasions are the exception rather than the rule. It's just the opposite in the UK, where it's illegal for the homeowner to defend themselves.
QuoteDoesn't change the fact that their crime rates are lower, which was my point.
But the US crime rate has been going down steadily for two decades, and the United Kingdom has been going up. And if you're not connecting their lower crime rate with no gun ownership, why bring it up. BTW, as it's immigrant population rises, and the society becomes more heterogeneous - as the US has been for years - the crime rate  is rising in the UK - just as it is in other countries in Europe that are starting to have large immigrant populations. Homogeneous societies, where everyone is of the same culture (Poland, Japan) tend to have lower crime rates. And why exactly do you trust China on their crime rates. Police states aren't noted for their official honesty.
QuoteBut - but, France is an Evil Socialist STate!  :unsure:
And that affects my point how exactly.
QuoteThis would be a legitimate argument if I only cited a singular example to prove my point.  But it's clear that, as a general trend, countries with stricter gun control laws have lower homicide rates.  It's difficult for you to accept, but the numbers speak for themselves.
Yeah right. Mexico has far stricter gun control laws than the US. Want to talk about their homicide rate. And How does it effect your argument if - as it was in Europe - they had lower homicide rates BEFORE they initiated strict gun control laws. IOW it wasn't the gun control laws.
Title: Re: US donates $34 million to UN plan to help Syria
Post by: kramarat on November 11, 2012, 02:59:00 PM
QuoteThis would be a legitimate argument if I only cited a singular example to prove my point.  But it's clear that, as a general trend, countries with stricter gun control laws have lower homicide rates.  It's difficult for you to accept, but the numbers speak for themselves.

Excellent work scifi.  :thumbup:

Some countries cut the hands off of thieves. They have a lower rate of theft. Should we adopt those laws too?

You're so smart. :love:

So if we simply cede all power over to the government, we can enjoy low crime rates like in China. Brilliant my man.........just brilliant.
Title: Re: US donates $34 million to UN plan to help Syria
Post by: Darth Fife on November 11, 2012, 03:50:15 PM
How about we don't spend that money on Syria, but instead, use it to assist the people in the Northeastern United States who are still hurting from Superstorm Sandy?

Just a thought... :rolleyes:

Title: Re: US donates $34 million to UN plan to help Syria
Post by: walkstall on November 11, 2012, 04:20:33 PM
Quote from: Darth Fife on November 11, 2012, 03:50:15 PM
How about we don't spend that money on Syria, but instead, use it to assist the people in the Northeastern United States who are still hurting from Superstorm Sandy?

Just a thought... :rolleyes:

What a concept, take care of you own people first.   :popcorn:
Title: Re: US donates $34 million to UN plan to help Syria
Post by: Sci Fi Fan on November 13, 2012, 01:14:08 PM
Quote from: mdgiles on November 11, 2012, 02:36:53 PM
Try reading for comprehension.

Try not throwing out ridiculous red herrings.

QuoteIn any case the US gun murder rate is currently 2.97 per 100,000, down from 5.6 per 100,000 in 2001
in the UK the current rate is 0.03 per 100,000, but it has grow 89% in the last decade.
But you are right it is much lower than in the US. However they seen a rise in the types of crimes usually not seen in the US. For example in the US, robberies seldom happen when the owners are home. Home invasions are the exception rather than the rule. It's just the opposite in the UK, where it's illegal for the homeowner to defend themselves.But the US crime rate has been going down steadily for two decades, and the United Kingdom has been going up. And if you're not connecting their lower crime rate with no gun ownership, why bring it up. BTW, as it's immigrant population rises, and the society becomes more heterogeneous - as the US has been for years - the crime rate  is rising in the UK - just as it is in other countries in Europe that are starting to have large immigrant populations. Homogeneous societies, where everyone is of the same culture (Poland, Japan) tend to have lower crime rates. And why exactly do you trust China on their crime rates. Police states aren't noted for their official honesty. And that affects my point how exactly. Yeah right. Mexico has far stricter gun control laws than the US. Want to talk about their homicide rate. And How does it effect your argument if - as it was in Europe - they had lower homicide rates BEFORE they initiated strict gun control laws. IOW it wasn't the gun control laws.

I'd like to see numbers of home robberies and other such crimes you cite.

You should also already know that more self inflicted wounds are caused by personally owned guns than are crimes deterred.

You should also note that singular examples (ie Mexico) hardly betray the general societal trend.

Overall, I don't understand why you deny tight gun control laws at all.  I never said we should outlaw guns.  I said we should intact stricter laws to keep them out of the hands of criminals, alcoholics, stupid people, the underaged, etc.   
Title: Re: US donates $34 million to UN plan to help Syria
Post by: kramarat on November 13, 2012, 02:59:35 PM
Quote from: Sci Fi Fan on November 13, 2012, 01:14:08 PM
Try not throwing out ridiculous red herrings.

I'd like to see numbers of home robberies and other such crimes you cite.

You should also already know that more self inflicted wounds are caused by personally owned guns than are crimes deterred.

You should also note that singular examples (ie Mexico) hardly betray the general societal trend.

Overall, I don't understand why you deny tight gun control laws at all.  I never said we should outlaw guns.  I said we should intact stricter laws to keep them out of the hands of criminals, alcoholics, stupid people, the underaged, etc.

Here's an idea: Why don't we enforce our existing laws and go after the criminals?

Wow!! We could even hand out death penalties and actually mean it.

Gee whiz, maybe we could even stop thinking about prisoner rights, and start thinking about the rights of the victims.

How about this? Instead of having prisons be workout and recreation centers, we could make it suck for the prisoners. Work from sunrise to sunset.

Hey.............we could even treat them like we treat our deployed soldiers. No air conditioning, minimal comforts of home..........

How does that sound, you petulant little boy genius?   :glare:
Title: Re: US donates $34 million to UN plan to help Syria
Post by: Yawn on November 13, 2012, 03:24:02 PM
QuoteI never said we should outlaw guns.  I said we should intact stricter laws

"A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."

Criminals don't obey laws. That's why they're criminals.
Title: Re: US donates $34 million to UN plan to help Syria
Post by: Sci Fi Fan on November 13, 2012, 03:32:47 PM
Quote from: kramarat on November 13, 2012, 02:59:35 PM
Here's an idea: Why don't we enforce our existing laws and go after the criminals?

We should do that too.  We should also make sure that those criminals can't casually buy an assault rifle off the streets.

Quote
Wow!! We could even hand out death penalties and actually mean it.

I support the death penalty on the assumption that the legal system is at least respectable; which it is, I guess.

Quote
Gee whiz, maybe we could even stop thinking about prisoner rights, and start thinking about the rights of the victims.

Dude, how does wanting to strip felons of weapons imply that I want to give prisoners more rights?

Quote
How about this? Instead of having prisons be workout and recreation centers, we could make it suck for the prisoners. Work from sunrise to sunset.

You can't possibly think that prisons are "workout and recreation centers".   :rolleyes:

Quote
Hey.............we could even treat them like we treat our deployed soldiers. No air conditioning, minimal comforts of home..........
How does that sound, you petulant little boy genius?   :glare:

I love how you happen to agree with everything that I said, and then act as though you've destroyed something in my argument.
Title: Re: US donates $34 million to UN plan to help Syria
Post by: kramarat on November 13, 2012, 03:54:10 PM
Quote from: Sci Fi Fan on November 13, 2012, 03:32:47 PM
We should do that too.  We should also make sure that those criminals can't casually buy an assault rifle off the streets.

I support the death penalty on the assumption that the legal system is at least respectable; which it is, I guess.

Dude, how does wanting to strip felons of weapons imply that I want to give prisoners more rights?

You can't possibly think that prisons are "workout and recreation centers".   :rolleyes:

I love how you happen to agree with everything that I said, and then act as though you've destroyed something in my argument.

Now that "fast and furious" has exposed how filthy and corrupt our government is..........right up to the president, it wouldn't surprise me a bit to find out that our justice dept is dumping guns onto US streets, simply to keep the criminal justice system running and growing.

I'm not talking about the cops either.................they are just collateral damage in the effort to keep a bloated bureaucracy going.
Title: Re: US donates $34 million to UN plan to help Syria
Post by: Sci Fi Fan on November 13, 2012, 04:03:34 PM
Quote from: Yawn on November 13, 2012, 03:24:02 PM
"A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."

And I said that guns shouldn't be outlawed.  But you seem to think that the right to bear arms is absolute.  No right is absolute.  The right to free speech certainly isn't, nor is the right to peacefully assemble or worship your faith.  Not even the right to life or liberty is absolute - death penalty and incarceration? 

So why is it so terrible to enact gun laws that stop potentially dangerous people from owning firearms?

And tell me again why it is necessary to own a barret 50 caliber to stop a bank robber?   :rolleyes:
Title: Re: US donates $34 million to UN plan to help Syria
Post by: kramarat on November 13, 2012, 04:32:20 PM
QuoteNo right is absolute.

You got that one right.

The founders came up with an almost perfect system. The only thing they didn't see coming were liberals and democrats. Our rights are being stripped on a daily basis.
Title: Re: US donates $34 million to UN plan to help Syria
Post by: Sci Fi Fan on November 13, 2012, 04:34:01 PM
Now that we're regressing into founding fathers worship...

Quote from: kramarat on November 13, 2012, 04:32:20 PM
You got that one right.

The founders came up with an almost perfect system. The only thing they didn't see coming were liberals and democrats. Our rights are being stripped on a daily basis.

Name me one democratic position that can't be traced back to a founding father.

No, really.  Excluding highly contextual cases, you'll be hard pressed to find any.

Title: Re: US donates $34 million to UN plan to help Syria
Post by: Solar on November 13, 2012, 04:59:32 PM
Quote from: Sci Fi Fan on November 13, 2012, 04:03:34 PM
And I said that guns shouldn't be outlawed.  But you seem to think that the right to bear arms is absolute.  No right is absolute.  The right to free speech certainly isn't, nor is the right to peacefully assemble or worship your faith.  Not even the right to life or liberty is absolute - death penalty and incarceration? 

So why is it so terrible to enact gun laws that stop potentially dangerous people from owning firearms?

And tell me again why it is necessary to own a barret 50 caliber to stop a bank robber?   :rolleyes:
Because criminals will always have guns, regardless of stupid laws.
That's like putting a sign on your lawn stating you may not trespass and thinking you will never ever have to worry about anyone ever entering your property without your permission.

Oh, and the reason we have the 2nd is not so much personal protection, but protection against an overbearing Govt, so yes, a 50 cal is probably the best line of defense in this case.

You really need to study history more....
Title: Re: US donates $34 million to UN plan to help Syria
Post by: Sci Fi Fan on November 13, 2012, 05:03:31 PM
Quote from: Solar on November 13, 2012, 04:59:32 PM
Because criminals will always have guns, regardless of stupid laws.

Of course.  But having strict laws and enforcing them will sure as hell make it harder for them.

Quote
That's like putting a sign on your lawn stating you may not trespass and thinking you will never ever have to worry about anyone ever entering your property without your permission.

No, but it will decrease the frequency of said entrances, won't it?  Especially if you have have a sign stating that you can flaunt federal authority, and have a trained pitbull in the doorway.

Quote
Oh, and the reason we have the 2nd is not so much personal protection, but protection against an overbearing Govt, so yes, a 50 cal is probably the best line of defense in this case.

You need to study up on the progression of the military.  Not only has the threat of our armed forces turning on the citizenry pretty much past; it's an all volunteer civilian program, home owners with guns can do jack and shit against a mechanized military.
Title: Re: US donates $34 million to UN plan to help Syria
Post by: Solar on November 13, 2012, 05:14:50 PM
Quote from: Sci Fi Fan on November 13, 2012, 05:03:31 PM
Of course.  But having strict laws and enforcing them will sure as hell make it harder for them.
The laws have always been in place, and it still hasn't stopped a criminal from acquiring a gun.

QuoteNo, but it will decrease the frequency of said entrances, won't it?  Especially if you have have a sign stating that you can flaunt federal authority, and have a trained pitbull in the doorway.
And like gun laws it is worthless preventing criminals from trespassing.
Quote
You need to study up on the progression of the military.  Not only has the threat of our armed forces turning on the citizenry pretty much past; it's an all volunteer civilian program, home owners with guns can do jack and shit against a mechanized military.
Wrong!!!
Most likely the Military would side with us in a civil action and we would already be armed against the troops supporting the Govt.
See how that works? The Founders knew what they were talking about, and you don't!
Title: Re: US donates $34 million to UN plan to help Syria
Post by: kramarat on November 13, 2012, 05:39:34 PM
QuoteName me one democratic position that can't be traced back to a founding father.

You're kidding right?

How about Obamacare?
Title: Re: US donates $34 million to UN plan to help Syria
Post by: Sci Fi Fan on November 13, 2012, 05:44:23 PM
Quote from: Solar on November 13, 2012, 05:14:50 PM
The laws have always been in place, and it still hasn't stopped a criminal from acquiring a gun.

False dilemma.  Stopping and mitigating are very different.

Quote
And like gun laws it is worthless preventing criminals from trespassing.

You seem to think that a <100% success rate equates to worthlessness.

QuoteWrong!!!
Most likely the Military would side with us in a civil action and we would already be armed against the troops supporting the Govt.

If the military sides with us, the government is screwed, whether or not the army is accompanied by some civilians with hunting rifles.

Quote
See how that works? The Founders knew what they were talking about, and you don't!

The Founders never grew up in a time where the military has weapons orders of magnitude more destructive than anything a criminal could reasonably get his hands on, who in turn can shoot up dozens of people in the timespan of a few minutes.

You need to understand the morality of the founders you so worship.
Title: Re: US donates $34 million to UN plan to help Syria
Post by: Solar on November 13, 2012, 06:23:43 PM
Quote from: Sci Fi Fan on November 13, 2012, 05:44:23 PM
False dilemma.  Stopping and mitigating are very different.
False dilemma? Then you follow up with some nonsense in semantics?
You are a complete waste of my time, you run away from posts you can't debate and post utter nonsense in hopes no one will question you on it because it made absolutely no sense whatsoever.

You're a complete waste of bandwidth.
Title: Re: US donates $34 million to UN plan to help Syria
Post by: Darth Fife on November 13, 2012, 06:27:26 PM
Quote from: Sci Fi Fan on November 13, 2012, 04:34:01 PM
Now that we're regressing into founding fathers worship...

Name me one democratic position that can't be traced back to a founding father.

Homosexual marriage.

No soup for you for a year! NEXT!