United States health care in my opinion is one issue that is effecting  Americans the most. Here are some statistics that I find important.

1. WHO ( world health organisation) has our health care system as 37th in the world.
http://www.photius.com/rankings/healthranks.html
I would like to mention that this is health care SYSTEMS. No one is arguing that America doesn't have some of the best doctors and equipment, but the system which we have to deliver this stuff to the American people is inefficient.

2. America spends roughly 16 % of its GDP on health care. Compared to many other western countries such as Canada, England, France, Australia and Israel who spend between 8 - 11 % of GDP. ( They have a government option)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_care_in_the_United_States
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_care_system

3. The worst statistic I have come across is by a Harvard medical research team which states that 45,000 Americans die each year due to no health care or not having the proper one. This was posted in the New York times.
http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE58G6W520090917

4. 60 % of United States bankruptcy's can be attributed to health care costs/problems. 3/4 of these people/small business had health care insurance but still this happened to them.

Also, to add to this point, it costs $1000 less to manufacture a car in Canada than across the river in Detriot. This is because business owners don't have to pay for health care insurance for their workers.


So what do you guys think ? I know conservatives in America have generally not been a huge supporter of Government involvement in health care. Has anyone ever had any problems with their health care insurers or know anyone that has ?

This is just a clip from Michael Moor's capitalism: A love Story. It's to do with the contradictions of extreme capitalism and the message of Jesus. I'm not trying to promote this film or its message, just thought this scene was interesting.

Capitalist Jesus

Quote from: redlom xof on January 08, 2011, 11:19:43 PM
United States health care in my opinion is one issue that is effecting  Americans the most. Here are some statistics that I find important.

1. WHO ( world health organisation) has our health care system as 37th in the world.
http://www.photius.com/rankings/healthranks.html
I would like to mention that this is health care SYSTEMS. No one is arguing that America doesn't have some of the best doctors and equipment, but the system which we have to deliver this stuff to the American people is inefficient.

2. America spends roughly 16 % of its GDP on health care. Compared to many other western countries such as Canada, England, France, Australia and Israel who spend between 8 - 11 % of GDP. ( They have a government option)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_care_in_the_United_States
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_care_system

3. The worst statistic I have come across is by a Harvard medical research team which states that 45,000 Americans die each year due to no health care or not having the proper one. This was posted in the New York times.
http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE58G6W520090917

4. 60 % of United States bankruptcy's can be attributed to health care costs/problems. 3/4 of these people/small business had health care insurance but still this happened to them.

Also, to add to this point, it costs $1000 less to manufacture a car in Canada than across the river in Detriot. This is because business owners don't have to pay for health care insurance for their workers.


So what do you guys think ? I know conservatives in America have generally not been a huge supporter of Government involvement in health care. Has anyone ever had any problems with their health care insurers or know anyone that has ?

This is just a clip from Michael Moor's capitalism: A love Story. It's to do with the contradictions of extreme capitalism and the message of Jesus. I'm not trying to promote this film or its message, just thought this scene was interesting.

Capitalist Jesus

The United States has a population of over 300 million, half of them pay zero taxes , plus another 20-30 million illegals. Canada has a population of 34 million. So what you have is 30 40 million that will receive free, or partially supported health car, and another 20- 30 million illegals that will get it free. Obama and the Pelosi gang have already increased entitlement spending by 45% since he took office in 2008. Obama tried to sell the idea as a way to lower the cost of health care that in turn would make it possible for people to be able to afford it. Of course the people who can't afford it will get it free along with their free housing cell phones and Internet, and of course the free food. The rest of us who pay for this will be forced to buy, or be fined or jailed. Make no mistake, you will go to jail eventually if you refuse to either buy or pay the fine. Anyone who doesn't measure up to their form of compliance with their lifestyle will be charged accordingly, what ever they deem unacceptable will not be tolerated. Kind of like bake sales in schools, or those Girl scout cookies you indulge in occasionally. For some their employer provided, with a reduced rate, health care has risen as much as 15-50 % because of the bill. Of course this doesn't include government employees or politicians, they are excluded from the program. That includes some Unions also. You tell me how this is going to work out. Every program and service they provide is in the red. But some how government involvement in health care is going to make it so much better. Moore the lard ass is a muti millionaire, he thinks Cuba has a splended heath care. What do you think?
http://www.therealcuba.com/Page10.htm

You should think about airing your fantasies one at a time, rather than casting them out here by the handful.  :P :P :P

1. The World Health Organization is nothing but a branch of the United Nations, a completely discredited and irrelevant body of statists and socialists. I frankly don't care what they think. Neither should you.

2. We spend more on health care in the US because we have the best on earth and it costs money. Duh. When was the last time you read about someone traveling from the US to, say, England to have heart surgery?

3. I'm not sure I'd waste a lot of time bragging about a statistic that was cooked up at Harvard and published in the New York Times. Sheesh! That's like spreading cat shit on a cow patty and calling it supper.

4. A pound of cane sugar costs less in Canada too, but that's because the damn US federal government sticks is nose into the sugar business. Stupid shit like that happens when governments get involved -- every single time they get involved. I don't know where your numbers come from (you forgot to say), but if all of this is true, why isn't there a mass migration from the US to Canada? Or why aren't we all at least driving Canadian cars?

It's not that I don't support government involvement in health care. It's more that I utterly detest the idea of government involvement in practically anything, including health care. What made this nation great is not government involvement in things. It's the utter lack of it.

Hmm, I could refer you to a couple of my Canadian relatives who enjoyed the bountiful benefits of socialized medicine. The conversation's necessarily going to be one-sided since they both died in the care of the Canadian health care system but hey, I'm sure you can find people who think it's peachy.

By the way, against all political calculation, a couple of years ago the Quebec Supreme Court cleared the way for private health care insurance by finding that being put on a waiting list until you die doesn't quite fulfill the letter of the law concerning the Canadian health care system. Of course the ruling only applies to Quebec but maybe when the citizens of a couple of more provinces get tired of watching older relatives die waiting for health care that'll change.

Oh, and save your Micheal Moore clips for audiences who are willing to overlook the fact that "Capitalism: A Love Story" was the product of a very successful capitalist.

Quote1. The World Health Organization is nothing but a branch of the United Nations, a completely discredited and irrelevant body of statists and socialists. I frankly don't care what they think. Neither should you.

Why would you discredit everything they say ? What evidence do you have that everything they do shouldn't be trusted ? As for them being socialist.. please provide proof because I have never heard the WTO been discribed as socialist.

Quote2. We spend more on health care in the US because we have the best on earth and it costs money.

As I states before I'm talking about health care systems and not health care. America is the richest country in the world so of course it will have some of the best care. If you were referring to America's health care system being the being the best please explain why and source any major study that agrees with you.

QuoteWhen was the last time you read about someone traveling from the US to, say, England to have heart surgery?

England I have no idea about. Canada on the other hand I have heard of people travelling there to get treatment. Plus why does it matter if some rich Englishmen or Canadian gets his/her treatment in the USA? Just means The USA can provide treatment to rich overseas people and not to some of its own people.

Quote3. I'm not sure I'd waste a lot of time bragging about a statistic that was cooked up at Harvard and published in the New York Times. Sheesh! That's like spreading cat shit on a cow patty and calling it supper

You can't just dismiss a study because you don't like what it presents or because you don't like the newspaper it was in. Harvard College is regarded as one of the best in the world. Any evidence as to why this study is false?

QuoteBy the way, against all political calculation, a couple of years ago the Quebec Supreme Court cleared the way for private health care insurance by finding that being put on a waiting list until you die doesn't quite fulfill the letter of the law concerning the Canadian health care system. Of course the ruling only applies to Quebec but maybe when the citizens of a couple of more provinces get tired of watching older relatives die waiting for health care that'll change.

What evidence do you have that people die due to being put on a waiting list? There has been a huge scare campagin against universial health care in America. Don't believe everything that some 'journalists' say.

Quote from: redlom xof on January 09, 2011, 10:10:18 AM
Why would you discredit everything they say ? What evidence do you have that everything they do shouldn't be trusted ? As for them being socialist.. please provide proof because I have never heard the WTO been discribed as socialist.

Fox, the WTO rankings don't make a whole lot of sense.  For instance, the more families that can afford health care out of pocket, the less the ranking.  Does that make any sense to you?  If so, please say why.  Otherwise, please try to use a ranking system that uses common sense.

For instance, what country in the world do all the world's dignitaries and rich people fly to when they need health care?  That is the country who is #1.

Quote
As I states before I'm talking about health care systems and not health care. America is the richest country in the world so of course it will have some of the best care.

Obama is trying to undo that....

Quote
If you were referring to America's health care system being the being the best please explain why and source any major study that agrees with you.

First response...

Quote
England I have no idea about. Canada on the other hand I have heard of people travelling there to get treatment. Plus why does it matter if some rich Englishmen or Canadian gets his/her treatment in the USA? Just means The USA can provide treatment to rich overseas people and not to some of its own people.

The crackhead shot in the ass at 2am can get into a hospital like a billionaire.  Doctors, equipment, and innovation cost money.  That is why people pay money for health care.  It is very simple.

Quote
What evidence do you have that people die due to being put on a waiting list? There has been a huge scare campagin against universial health care in America. Don't believe everything that some 'journalists' say.

Ask Canadian PM Danny Williams what would have happened if he followed his doctor's advice...

I would like to add that our health care is not bad but the Obama system of health care is evil. (my opinion) I have read a few books on health care and basically there are only about three types among what we call civilized countries. plus a few combinations of the original three. I,m not promoting socialized medic in but if you get a chance study up on what Germany has. One still pays but very little, Would be doctors get free schooling but don't make as much as our doctors. So instead of making a half a mill they would only make about 200,000 a year. They pay very little in malpractice insurance and the law suites are limited to a small amount. They have hardly any waiting period and tend to treat the problem as apposed to a symptom. You also have to remember we already have socialized medic in here already in the form of medicare Medicaid and the VA. all run by the government. Plus we have a huge glut of us baby boomers getting on the older side which will put a huge burdin on our healthcare system we have now, not to mention the burdin it will put on the Seniors if Obama care comes into fruition. What we have isn't bad but it could use a lot of help also. And on top of that any system that government proposes should have every ear mark taken out before it's even submitted.

As always, the facts about health care AND health care systems favor the US in every way. And as taxed so correctly pointed out, the crackhead has access to the same state-of-the-art health care technology that Bill Gates does in an emergency.

But we have to be careful not to lose sight of the true issue. Obamacare is not about health care at all, and never was. Obamacare is a carefully crafted nose-under-the-tent-flap scheme to dismantle the private health care insurance system and replace it completely with a single-payer system run by the government. It was from the very beginning a plan to take over a huge chunk of the American economy and extend government control over our lives. Almost everything Congress and the Obama White House have done since January 20, 2009 has been a power grab, which is why 2,400-page bills are passed practically on Christmas Eve on a weekend when nobody's paying attention.

THAT is why repealing Obamacare is so important. It has nothing to do with health care, but a great deal to do with stopping a runaway power-mad government.

Good point TBone.

Here's what I think is immoral, fox. The Democrats in Congress and the WH are setting out to destroy the private health care insurance industry so they can expand the federal government and further 'redistribute wealth.' (Which, incidentally, is the general goal of the UN and WHO on a global scale, and the agenda of the global warming/climate change alarmist pukes.) Here's how it works...

Say you're CEO of a successful privately-held insurance company and one of your profitable lines of insurance coverage happens to be health care insurance. You've employed an army of actuaries, accountants, sales professionals, and other staff to keep tabs on costs and maintain a healthy profit and dividends for your stockholders. (If this sounds unfamiliar to you, it's how business is done in the United States.)

Along comes the federal government, which tells you that you're about to change some of the fundamental ways in which you do business. First of all, you'll have to follow the fed's rules to get into the state and regional insurance "pools" that are soon to be the primary source of insurance for tens of millions of Americans. (Hammer #1)

Your rules about cutting kids out of family health insurance plans once they finish college or get a job after high school are no longer allowable. You have to continue to carry them on their parents' policies until they're 26. (Hammer #2)

Your line of discount low-coverage health insurance policies marketed to low-income wage-earners is no longer acceptable to the feds, and you have to stop selling it. (This is the one that's been the source of the more than 200 waivers -- so far.) (Hammer #3)

The feds are going to cut Medicare payments in order to finance the expected massive influx of poor people into Medicaid. This means that doctors and hospitals that are already overcharging for privately insured medical treatment will have no choice but to raise the overcharges yet again to make up the difference. But raising your premiums to cover this increase is 'discouraged' by a federal agency (HHS) that announces that it will have "zero tolerance" for rate increases that are claimed to be the result of Obamacare. (Hammer #4)

That same federal agency (HHS) announces a rulemaking that says you can't raise the rates you charge for your product more than 10% without the agency's approval, no matter what the reason. (Hammer #5)

Your policy structures are now subject to federal review and approval. You can no longer rely on the ability to set deductibles and payment caps are outlawed altogether. (Hammer #6)

You will no longer have the ability to deny "affordable coverage" to any applicant, no matter how sick, even one who has been diagnosed with an illness or injury that you absolutely know will cost your company millions of dollars to treat. (Hammer #7)

As a sop, the feds offer you guaranteed new customers, young ones with few costs, who will be forced by the 'individual mandate' to buy your insurance at rates roughly from $500-900/month. Except the fed will let these pups slide with no insurance at all if they pay a $900 annual "fine" to the US Treasury. Gee, I wonder which way they'll go? (Hammer #8)

There's plenty more, but my question is: How long are you, the insurance CEO, going to keep on selling health care insurance? Ten minutes? Five? Many of these "hammers" haven't been dropped yet, because the whole thing was phased over time to allow up-front taxes to pay for later expenses, and to allow legislators at least a snowball-chance at reelection. (And the really ugly stuff doesn't come around until 2014, which the Dems hope will be about the middle of the Kenyan's second term.) But they're ALL in the abortion called Obamacare.

The Democrats calculated correctly that they'd never get the single-payer system through this time around. But they planted the seeds that will lead inevitably to the destruction of the private health care insurance industry. And when that happens, there's really only one place left to look to for help...

See how it works?

Quote from: tbone0106 on January 09, 2011, 05:29:56 PM
Here's what I think is immoral, fox. The Democrats in Congress and the WH are setting out to destroy the private health care insurance industry so they can expand the federal government and further 'redistribute wealth.' (Which, incidentally, is the general goal of the UN and WHO on a global scale, and the agenda of the global warming/climate change alarmist pukes.) Here's how it works...

Say you're CEO of a successful privately-held insurance company and one of your profitable lines of insurance coverage happens to be health care insurance. You've employed an army of actuaries, accountants, sales professionals, and other staff to keep tabs on costs and maintain a healthy profit and dividends for your stockholders. (If this sounds unfamiliar to you, it's how business is done in the United States.)

Along comes the federal government, which tells you that you're about to change some of the fundamental ways in which you do business. First of all, you'll have to follow the fed's rules to get into the state and regional insurance "pools" that are soon to be the primary source of insurance for tens of millions of Americans. (Hammer #1)

Your rules about cutting kids out of family health insurance plans once they finish college or get a job after high school are no longer allowable. You have to continue to carry them on their parents' policies until they're 26. (Hammer #2)

Your line of discount low-coverage health insurance policies marketed to low-income wage-earners is no longer acceptable to the feds, and you have to stop selling it. (This is the one that's been the source of the more than 200 waivers -- so far.) (Hammer #3)

The feds are going to cut Medicare payments in order to finance the expected massive influx of poor people into Medicaid. This means that doctors and hospitals that are already overcharging for privately insured medical treatment will have no choice but to raise the overcharges yet again to make up the difference. But raising your premiums to cover this increase is 'discouraged' by a federal agency (HHS) that announces that it will have "zero tolerance" for rate increases that are claimed to be the result of Obamacare. (Hammer #4)

That same federal agency (HHS) announces a rulemaking that says you can't raise the rates you charge for your product more than 10% without the agency's approval, no matter what the reason. (Hammer #5)

Your policy structures are now subject to federal review and approval. You can no longer rely on the ability to set deductibles and payment caps are outlawed altogether. (Hammer #6)

You will no longer have the ability to deny "affordable coverage" to any applicant, no matter how sick, even one who has been diagnosed with an illness or injury that you absolutely know will cost your company millions of dollars to treat. (Hammer #7)

As a sop, the feds offer you guaranteed new customers, young ones with few costs, who will be forced by the 'individual mandate' to buy your insurance at rates roughly from $500-900/month. Except the fed will let these pups slide with no insurance at all if they pay a $900 annual "fine" to the US Treasury. Gee, I wonder which way they'll go? (Hammer #8)

There's plenty more, but my question is: How long are you, the insurance CEO, going to keep on selling health care insurance? Ten minutes? Five? Many of these "hammers" haven't been dropped yet, because the whole thing was phased over time to allow up-front taxes to pay for later expenses, and to allow legislators at least a snowball-chance at reelection. (And the really ugly stuff doesn't come around until 2014, which the Dems hope will be about the middle of the Kenyan's second term.) But they're ALL in the abortion called Obamacare.

The Democrats calculated correctly that they'd never get the single-payer system through this time around. But they planted the seeds that will lead inevitably to the destruction of the private health care insurance industry. And when that happens, there's really only one place left to look to for help...

See how it works?

TB, in reply to hammer#8 , the kids who opt to pay the 900 fine will still have access to medical care via the emergency room. I would imagine that will be the attitude of the great majority of them.. This is going to be one huge mess. In the end, it's going to hurt the very people Obama and the democrats say they care about the most, the people who make enough to not qualify for the freebies, but struggle just to keep up with the rising cost of utilities, food and gasoline. I doubt there is going to be anything affordable for them. I agree with you completely, just wanted to expand on #8.