Trump Winning, White House cheers House's $5 billion border wall bill

Started by Solar, July 19, 2018, 09:59:54 AM

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Possum

Quote from: Dave, Retired US Army on July 19, 2018, 01:30:10 PM
We have whole cities and damn near whole states who will not enforce the law on immigration. How do you propose to get around that?

By enforcing the laws already on the books ___at their site or employment___.  Put the pressure on employers and make them pay fines for hiring undocumented workers.   Don't arrest them in churches, go to the fields, go to the slaughter houses.  Bring cameras and put this on the nightly news.  The word will get out and there will be more jobs for Americans = everyone will have to be documented.

Of we could build a wall that costs tens of billions of dollars.  Mexico will not pay for that wall, we already know that.  The US taxpayer will pay for it.  (The churches by the way receive a tax break - no federal taxes, so those undocumented aliens in churches are being subsidized by those of us who pay federal taxes.)

I suggest a sales tax increase as well as a gasoline tax increase and use that money to pay for the wall.  Compared to the rest of the industrialized world, the US pays half or less what they pay in Europe for gasoline.  Increase the sales tax by two percent and put that money towards the wall.   The money has to come from somewhere ... and we're already in a shitload of debt.

So, the wall it is!   Now we have to pay for it.
When you have entire cities that will not obey and enforce the law??? That is why they are called sanctuary cities, not because they are arresting illegals in church but because they will not arrest any illegal!!!  Who is going to throw the government and law enforcement in jail??? By the way, who has been arrested in church?

AndyJackson

Quote from: Dave, Retired US Army on July 19, 2018, 11:11:35 AM
As a practical matter, wouldn't it cost considerably less money to forgo the wall but enforce the laws already on the books of not hiring undocumented workers?  The money saved on the wall could be better spent on law enforcement, right? 

If you lived in California and there were undocumented aliens cleaning your pool and maintaining your lawn, you would be fined if caught ... and the fine could be made substantial thus making it undesirable to hire undocumented aliens.   It would force employers to at least make an attempt to check identification.  If an employer made a good faith attempt to check identification, he could be forgiven the occasional oversight, if, say, the identification were fraudulent.

Americans would then be more careful to hire _Americans_ to do those jobs.  Wouldn't that make it less desirable to come to the US as an undocumented worker?  In the short term, the cost of agriculture might increase, but it would produce more jobs for Americans.
No, it will not.  We're also talking fake kids, fake parents, kidnappers, sex/child smugglers, MS-13, cartels operatives, drug mules, people from jails and hospitals, and many other miscreants.  Immensely more dangerous, costly, and shitty than workers.

A wall stops them all, including the unethical companies in America.

I appreciate your absolute fake conservativism.  You can fake your name, but not your surprisingly anti-Trump smell on every issue.  Don't even care about the Army thing.

Solar

Quote from: Dave, Retired US Army on July 19, 2018, 01:30:10 PM
We have whole cities and damn near whole states who will not enforce the law on immigration. How do you propose to get around that?

By enforcing the laws already on the books ___at their site or employment___.  Put the pressure on employers and make them pay fines for hiring undocumented workers.   Don't arrest them in churches, go to the fields, go to the slaughter houses.  Bring cameras and put this on the nightly news.  The word will get out and there will be more jobs for Americans = everyone will have to be documented.

Of we could build a wall that costs tens of billions of dollars.  Mexico will not pay for that wall, we already know that.  The US taxpayer will pay for it.  (The churches by the way receive a tax break - no federal taxes, so those undocumented aliens in churches are being subsidized by those of us who pay federal taxes.)

I suggest a sales tax increase as well as a gasoline tax increase and use that money to pay for the wall.  Compared to the rest of the industrialized world, the US pays half or less what they pay in Europe for gasoline.  Increase the sales tax by two percent and put that money towards the wall.   The money has to come from somewhere ... and we're already in a shitload of debt.

So, the wall it is!   Now we have to pay for it.
Hey Dave, instead of simply hitting reply, look at the reply you want and look in the upper right and you'll see the word Quote, hit that, then click below the post and type your reply, it makes it a lot easier for those following the conversation.

Try it and hit preview to see if you got it right, then hit the post button.
Thanks.
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Dave, Retired US Army

Quote from: Solar on July 19, 2018, 01:42:12 PM
Hey Dave, instead of simply hitting reply, look at the reply you want and look in the upper right and you'll see the word Quote, hit that, then click below the post and type your reply, it makes it a lot easier for those following the conversation.

Try it and hit preview to see if you got it right, then hit the post button.
Thanks.

Got it.  I thought hitting Quote would copy the entire message and not just what I highlighted.  I've gotten so used to Ctrl + C, Ctrl = V ... old school.  :)

Walter Josh

Quote from: Dave, Retired US Army on July 19, 2018, 11:11:35 AM
As a practical matter, wouldn't it cost considerably less money to forgo the wall but enforce the laws already on the books of not hiring undocumented workers?  The money saved on the wall could be better spent on law enforcement, right? 

If you lived in California and there were undocumented aliens cleaning your pool and maintaining your lawn, you would be fined if caught ... and the fine could be made substantial thus making it undesirable to hire undocumented aliens.   It would force employers to at least make an attempt to check identification.  If an employer made a good faith attempt to check identification, he could be forgiven the occasional oversight, if, say, the identification were fraudulent.

Americans would then be more careful to hire _Americans_ to do those jobs.  Wouldn't that make it less desirable to come to the US as an undocumented worker?  In the short term, the cost of agriculture might increase, but it would produce more jobs for Americans.
-------------------------------------------------------
Emphatically disagree, as a Wall represents a degree of permanence
sending the message; STAY AWAY!!!
The left will hold power someday, again engulfing us w/their pious platitudes
and sanctimonious bullshit about these sainted illegals.
As a consequence, law enforcement will wane, undocumented aliens will
increase and employers will ignore the fraud when there's a buck to be made.
Yet the wall Will still stand!
An anecdote re agriculture. In eastern Europe fruits and vegetables are gathered
by machinery not by hand. Apparently California remains unaware .No surprise.

Billy's bayonet

Sorry Guys I have to Side with Dave on this one. As I have said Soooooo many times ont his board "WALLS ARE ONLY AS GOOD AS THE MEN WHO MAN THEM"  And we dont have good men manning them right now....I don't mean ICE or the BPS I mean the scum sucking dogs in DC and California and all the other Sanctuary cities.

The aforementioned quote is attributed to the Mongol General who breached the greatest wall of them all the Great Wall of China  NOT by FORCE OF ARMS but through treachery, bribing the CHinese General in charge of a certain gate to let his fast moving Horsemen through. It worked 300 years ago and it is working now, you cant tell me that these creeps who are screeching the loudest on Capitol Hill for open borders aren't taking money from the Cartels.

I fully support building a wall BUT a wall is not the end all be all, we must do something about the millions and millions of illegals already here and getting away with it scott free. That means E verify, arresting those who employ illegals, No bank accounts, no loans from Bank of America, no rental agreements, no drivers permits, and NO FKG SANCTUARY CITIES, arrest the hell out of any CIty/State LOcal official who practices Sanctuary policy and see how fast it stops.

We need Good men manning the gates again, not these lunatics who want to abolish ICE.

Evil operates best when under a disguise

WHEN A CRIME GOES UNPUNISHED THE WORLD IS UNBALANCED

WHEN A WRONG IS UNAVENGED THE HEAVENS LOOK DOWN ON US IN SHAME

IMPEACH BIDEN

Solar

Quote from: Billy's bayonet on July 19, 2018, 08:54:42 PM
Sorry Guys I have to Side with Dave on this one. As I have said Soooooo many times ont his board "WALLS ARE ONLY AS GOOD AS THE MEN WHO MAN THEM"  And we dont have good men manning them right now....I don't mean ICE or the BPS I mean the scum sucking dogs in DC and California and all the other Sanctuary cities.

The aforementioned quote is attributed to the Mongol General who breached the greatest wall of them all the Great Wall of China  NOT by FORCE OF ARMS but through treachery, bribing the CHinese General in charge of a certain gate to let his fast moving Horsemen through. It worked 300 years ago and it is working now, you cant tell me that these creeps who are screeching the loudest on Capitol Hill for open borders aren't taking money from the Cartels.

I fully support building a wall BUT a wall is not the end all be all, we must do something about the millions and millions of illegals already here and getting away with it scott free. That means E verify, arresting those who employ illegals, No bank accounts, no loans from Bank of America, no rental agreements, no drivers permits, and NO FKG SANCTUARY CITIES, arrest the hell out of any CIty/State LOcal official who practices Sanctuary policy and see how fast it stops.

We need Good men manning the gates again, not these lunatics who want to abolish ICE.
Sorry Billy, I passionately disagree. Do you not have locks on your doors?
You seem to forget technology, be it satellites, drones or whatever the future holds, there is no alternative to a physical barrier.
For the same reason I have an 8' wrought iron fence spanning my property as well as dogs, it's all about deterrence and buying you time to react.
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Billy's bayonet

Quote from: Solar on July 19, 2018, 09:06:00 PM
Sorry Billy, I passionately disagree. Do you not have locks on your doors?
You seem to forget technology, be it satellites, drones or whatever the future holds, there is no alternative to a physical barrier.
For the same reason I have an 8' wrought iron fence spanning my property as well as dogs, it's all about deterrence and buying you time to react.


I said I support "the Wall" but a Wall is not enough, I have yet to see the lock, the gate or the safe that will dissuade a determined CRIMINAL.

Build a wall and these people will still figure out a way to get in.
Evil operates best when under a disguise

WHEN A CRIME GOES UNPUNISHED THE WORLD IS UNBALANCED

WHEN A WRONG IS UNAVENGED THE HEAVENS LOOK DOWN ON US IN SHAME

IMPEACH BIDEN

Possum

Quote from: Billy's bayonet on July 19, 2018, 09:28:29 PM

I said I support "the Wall" but a Wall is not enough, I have yet to see the lock, the gate or the safe that will dissuade a determined CRIMINAL.

Build a wall and these people will still figure out a way to get in.
As long as there are sanctuary cities for illegals to go, we will have an illegal problem. A wall will give you checkpoints which can be better enforced and harder to go around. We have good people on the border but they have too many miles to control. With a wall to deter the masses, our law enforcement will be able to concentrate better on the criminal element. How to get the $, stop sending federal $ to sanctuary places, fine big $ to those who hire illegals, taxed those who come in,(if legals have $ to pay a coyote to get here, they can pay the tax), no federal benefits to non citizens. A wall might not be effective or a complete fix to the problem, but what we are doing is not working and when laws are enforced a liberal federal judge steps in.

Solar

Quote from: Billy's bayonet on July 19, 2018, 09:28:29 PM

I said I support "the Wall" but a Wall is not enough, I have yet to see the lock, the gate or the safe that will dissuade a determined CRIMINAL.

Build a wall and these people will still figure out a way to get in.
There's one big problem, All of Congress.
You seem to have forgotten why we even have this problem in the first place. Both party's love unfettered masses of illegals flooding the nation unabated.
If we had a Congress willing to do their job, this really would not be an issue, for the same reason I have a fence around my property, I'm assured that the masses will stay away and I don't need to hire a live guard 24/7 to man my borders, when I can have my cameras trained around the perimeter instead.

Really, there never used to be a problem until WWII when there was a shortage of men to work the fields, so they created the Bracero program to allow Mexicans across to fill these positions, the war ended but the program continued.
But it wasn't until the early 70s when the Dim party found a victim class to breed here in Ca, where they fought to pass a law that stated hospitals had to accept any pregnant woman and deliver her baby without charge, which the taxpayers would pickup..

The rest is history, the GOP saw cheap labor for their crony backers, and the Marxist Dims were looking longterm at developing out another victim class.
So why give them free range to cross and pump out anchor babies?
This is why both party's are fighting so hard to keep Trump from fulfilling his promise to build a wall. They know it'll work.

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Billy's bayonet

Quote from: Solar on July 20, 2018, 05:11:28 AM
There's one big problem, All of Congress.
You seem to have forgotten why we even have this problem in the first place. Both party's love unfettered masses of illegals flooding the nation unabated.
If we had a Congress willing to do their job, this really would not be an issue, for the same reason I have a fence around my property, I'm assured that the masses will stay away and I don't need to hire a live guard 24/7 to man my borders, when I can have my cameras trained around the perimeter instead.


Exactly this is why I say we don;t have "good men Manning the Walls"  Congress are not "Good Men" they are not doing their  part and we are not enforcing the existing laws yet finding ways to circumvent them or worse ELIMINATE them.ABOLISH ICE,  All of this serves as a MAGNET for illegals who if they can't breach a wall will go AROUND IT. As long as we have the "magnets" and we've enumerated what they are, Barriers are so a moot point.

Trust me on this, Build the wall (I'd go down there Now and dig the foundation myself) and you will have hordes of Illegals coming to the California, TExas to Florida coast showing up in boats, Submarines (yes thats what I said) light aircraft  etc etc, California is going to accomodate this and so will some other states and Jurisdictions. Then there is the Idiot Marxist Fagster in Canada, who is looking for an excuse to Mess with Trump, shall we also wall off Canada?

Shut off the magnets and you shut off the illegals.
Evil operates best when under a disguise

WHEN A CRIME GOES UNPUNISHED THE WORLD IS UNBALANCED

WHEN A WRONG IS UNAVENGED THE HEAVENS LOOK DOWN ON US IN SHAME

IMPEACH BIDEN

Solar

Quote from: Billy's bayonet on July 20, 2018, 06:53:29 AM
Exactly this is why I say we don;t have "good men Manning the Walls"  Congress are not "Good Men" they are not doing their  part and we are not enforcing the existing laws yet finding ways to circumvent them or worse ELIMINATE them.ABOLISH ICE,  All of this serves as a MAGNET for illegals who if they can't breach a wall will go AROUND IT. As long as we have the "magnets" and we've enumerated what they are, Barriers are so a moot point.

Trust me on this, Build the wall (I'd go down there Now and dig the foundation myself) and you will have hordes of Illegals coming to the California, TExas to Florida coast showing up in boats, Submarines (yes thats what I said) light aircraft  etc etc, California is going to accomodate this and so will some other states and Jurisdictions. Then there is the Idiot Marxist Fagster in Canada, who is looking for an excuse to Mess with Trump, shall we also wall off Canada?

Shut off the magnets and you shut off the illegals.
But that's my point, regardless, we still need a wall because our history has proven that neither party is willing to enforce the law.
At least with a wall, they'll be forced into several entry points, putting a huge damper on illegal activity, such as smuggling and human trafficking of children.
It's not 100% perfect, we know that and yes, they'll fly drones over it to smuggle drugs in the future, but it will slow down the human aspect of crossing the border.
Take away all the magnets and we'll have a far better system. A wall is still better than no wall.
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supsalemgr

Quote from: Solar on July 20, 2018, 07:23:16 AM
But that's my point, regardless, we still need a wall because our history has proven that neither party is willing to enforce the law.
At least with a wall, they'll be forced into several entry points, putting a huge damper on illegal activity, such as smuggling and human trafficking of children.
It's not 100% perfect, we know that and yes, they'll fly drones over it to smuggle drugs in the future, but it will slow down the human aspect of crossing the border.
Take away all the magnets and we'll have a far better system. A wall is still better than no wall.

It is really that simple. $26B sounds like a lot of money and it is. However, talk about return on investment, that would be it.
"If you can't run with the big dawgs, stay on the porch!"

Solar

Quote from: supsalemgr on July 20, 2018, 10:13:56 AM
It is really that simple. $26B sounds like a lot of money and it is. However, talk about return on investment, that would be it.
Exactly! I posted the data earlier that went unnoticed.

Given the $12-15 billion cost of the border wall and assuming 1.7 million illegal crossings without the wall over the next 10 years:

Each illegal is a lifetime net cost to taxpayers of $74,722
If the wall cut illegal entries in half (850,000), the wall would save $64 billion over ten years
The wall would pay for itself in two years (1.9-2.2 years, depending on cost)
It would save taxpayers 4-5 times its cost over 10 years
If the wall stopped only 9-12% (160-180,000) of illegal crossing over the next decade, a $12-15 billion wall would pay for itself in ten years

https://www.cnsnews.com/blog/craig-bannister/border-wall-could-save-taxpayers-five-times-its-cost-over-10-years
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