The White House on Wednesday backed a House spending bill that includes $5 billion to build a border wall, saying it will pay for another 200 miles of physical barrier on the border with Mexico.

The wall is the centerpiece of Mr. Trump's effort to reduce rampant illegal immigration across the southern border. But the administration and Republicans in Congress have run into solid opposition for Democrats, who have been able to block most of an estimated $25 billion needed to build the wall.

https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2018/jul/18/house-5-billion-border-wall-bill-cheered-white-hou/

As a practical matter, wouldn't it cost considerably less money to forgo the wall but enforce the laws already on the books of not hiring undocumented workers?  The money saved on the wall could be better spent on law enforcement, right? 

If you lived in California and there were undocumented aliens cleaning your pool and maintaining your lawn, you would be fined if caught ... and the fine could be made substantial thus making it undesirable to hire undocumented aliens.   It would force employers to at least make an attempt to check identification.  If an employer made a good faith attempt to check identification, he could be forgiven the occasional oversight, if, say, the identification were fraudulent.

Americans would then be more careful to hire _Americans_ to do those jobs.  Wouldn't that make it less desirable to come to the US as an undocumented worker?  In the short term, the cost of agriculture might increase, but it would produce more jobs for Americans.

Quote from: Dave, Retired US Army on July 19, 2018, 11:11:35 AM
As a practical matter, wouldn't it cost considerably less money to forgo the wall but enforce the laws already on the books of not hiring undocumented workers?  The money saved on the wall could be better spent on law enforcement, right? 

If you lived in California and there were undocumented aliens cleaning your pool and maintaining your lawn, you would be fined if caught ... and the fine could be made substantial thus making it undesirable to hire undocumented aliens.   It would force employers to at least make an attempt to check identification.  If an employer made a good faith attempt to check identification, he could be forgiven the occasional oversight, if, say, the identification were fraudulent.

Americans would then be more careful to hire _Americans_ to do those jobs.  Wouldn't that make it less desirable to come to the US as an undocumented worker?  In the short term, the cost of agriculture might increase, but it would produce more jobs for Americans.

And how has that worked so far?

And how has that worked so far?

We know for a fact that slaughter houses and big agra use undocumented workers and work hand in hand with the police.  They'll arrest a small number to make it look good but don't dare enforce the law against _all_ their workers.  There are payoffs and it's worked great for slaughter houses and big agra, they don't have to pay a decent wage, don't have to worry about health benefits, don't have to worry about overtime or vacation pay, it's worked great for big business, they want to keep things as it is. 

Start enforcing the laws across the board and good honest law enforcement will make a big difference.

Hire more law enforcement and enforce the laws already on the books ...  or spend billions, and I guarantee the cost for the wall will be more than that they estimate, ... and see what happens. 

Should be build a wall on the northern boarder as well? 

Quote from: Dave, Retired US Army on July 19, 2018, 11:53:00 AM
And how has that worked so far?

We know for a fact that slaughter houses and big agra use undocumented workers and work hand in hand with the police.  They'll arrest a small number to make it look good but don't dare enforce the law against _all_ their workers.  There are payoffs and it's worked great for slaughter houses and big agra, they don't have to pay a decent wage, don't have to worry about health benefits, don't have to worry about overtime or vacation pay, it's worked great for big business, they want to keep things as it is. 

Start enforcing the laws across the board and good honest law enforcement will make a big difference.

Hire more law enforcement and enforce the laws already on the books ...  or spend billions, and I guarantee the cost for the wall will be more than that they estimate, ... and see what happens. 

Should be build a wall on the northern boarder as well?

You just made a case for the wall. These people wouldn't be in the country in the first place and if they want to come and work they need to register for a work permit and pay taxes as would the business that hired them.

Do you have locks on your doors? So why wouldn't we lock the doors on the border?

Quote from: Dave, Retired US Army on July 19, 2018, 11:53:00 AM
And how has that worked so far?

We know for a fact that slaughter houses and big agra use undocumented workers and work hand in hand with the police.  They'll arrest a small number to make it look good but don't dare enforce the law against _all_ their workers.  There are payoffs and it's worked great for slaughter houses and big agra, they don't have to pay a decent wage, don't have to worry about health benefits, don't have to worry about overtime or vacation pay, it's worked great for big business, they want to keep things as it is. 

Start enforcing the laws across the board and good honest law enforcement will make a big difference.

Hire more law enforcement and enforce the laws already on the books ...  or spend billions, and I guarantee the cost for the wall will be more than that they estimate, ... and see what happens. 

Should be build a wall on the northern boarder as well?

Unfortunately, the levels of enforcement will depend on who is in the white house, or sits in the governors chair, or who is the mayor, etc... The wall would not care who is in office. And no, we do not seem to have an immigration problem at our northern border.

Quote from: Solar on July 19, 2018, 12:01:28 PM
You just made a case for the wall. These people wouldn't be in the country in the first place and if they want to come and work they need to register for a work permit and pay taxes as would the business that hired them.

Do you have locks on your doors? So why wouldn't we lock the doors on the border?

You beat me to it. They wouldn't be here if we had an effective wall.

I truly believe if we close the wall folks will continue to come as America offers so much. However, with an effective Barrier WE determine who gets in.

I'm just looking at this from a pragmatic point of view.   If law enforcement would enforce the laws already on the books, an employer would think twice about hiring an undocumented alien; landlords would be required to only rent or lease to documented aliens.  If you didn't comply, you'd be fined and the undocumented aliens would be deported. 

As long as big business can benefit from cheap labor, there will be palm greasing and the police will selectively look the other way.

How much will the wall cost?  Wasn't it supposed to cost nothing?  I bet whatever price is mentioned, it will cost more.

Quote from: Dave, Retired US Army on July 19, 2018, 12:31:32 PM
I'm just looking at this from a pragmatic point of view.   If law enforcement would enforce the laws already on the books, an employer would think twice about hiring an undocumented alien; landlords would be required to only rent or lease to documented aliens.  If you didn't comply, you'd be fined and the undocumented aliens would be deported. 

As long as big business can benefit from cheap labor, there will be palm greasing and the police will selectively look the other way.

How much will the wall cost?  Wasn't it supposed to cost nothing?  I bet whatever price is mentioned, it will cost more.

I bet it's cheaper than  a steady stream of illegals.

Quote from: Dave, Retired US Army on July 19, 2018, 12:31:32 PM
I'm just looking at this from a pragmatic point of view.   If law enforcement would enforce the laws already on the books, an employer would think twice about hiring an undocumented alien; landlords would be required to only rent or lease to documented aliens.  If you didn't comply, you'd be fined and the undocumented aliens would be deported. 

As long as big business can benefit from cheap labor, there will be palm greasing and the police will selectively look the other way.

How much will the wall cost?  Wasn't it supposed to cost nothing?  I bet whatever price is mentioned, it will cost more.

Jeez, have you ever heard of Sanctuary, or rather Stanktuary cities?
Where is law enforcement? We have entire cities spitting on our immigration laws and you think hiring more law enforcement is going to change that?
If we'd had a damn wall in the first place, none of this would be an issue.

You want pragmatic? Here's your pragmatist outlook.

Given the $12-15 billion cost of the border wall and assuming 1.7 million illegal crossings without the wall over the next 10 years:

Each illegal is a lifetime net cost to taxpayers of $74,722
If the wall cut illegal entries in half (850,000), the wall would save $64 billion over ten years
The wall would pay for itself in two years (1.9-2.2 years, depending on cost)
It would save taxpayers 4-5 times its cost over 10 years
If the wall stopped only 9-12% (160-180,000) of illegal crossing over the next decade, a $12-15 billion wall would pay for itself in ten years

https://www.cnsnews.com/blog/craig-bannister/border-wall-could-save-taxpayers-five-times-its-cost-over-10-years

Quote from: supsalemgr on July 19, 2018, 12:30:23 PM
You beat me to it. They wouldn't be here if we had an effective wall.

I truly believe if we close the wall folks will continue to come as America offers so much. However, with an effective Barrier WE determine who gets in.

Yep, that's all we ask. Knock on the door, we'll decide if you're eligible. That is, after all, the law on the books.

Jeez, have you ever heard of Sanctuary, or rather Stanktuary cities?
Where is law enforcement? We have entire cities spitting on our immigration laws and you think hiring more law enforcement is going to change that?
IIf we'd had a damn wall in the first place, none of this would be an issue

Why do the police look the other way when hundreds of thousands of undocumented aliens work the fields and slaughter houses of big agra.

Someone seeking sanctuary in a church is not working, right?  Arresting someone being protected by a church would be bad optics; arresting someone in the field _and_ fining the employer would be perfectly fine for us ... and for me, but not for big business - they like having cheap labor.  The police will only arrest and deport a fraction of undocumented aliens to keep things good for their greased palms and big business.

Do you think a wall costing tens of billions of dollars will solve this problem?  I really don't.  Make the wall 30 feet high and someone will come along with a 31 foot ladder ... or dig a tunnel.  Smuggling people into a country is big business; better and more effective law enforcement would get my money, not a wall that we're going to pay for, not Mexico.

Quote from: Dave, Retired US Army on July 19, 2018, 01:13:37 PM
Jeez, have you ever heard of Sanctuary, or rather Stanktuary cities?
Where is law enforcement? We have entire cities spitting on our immigration laws and you think hiring more law enforcement is going to change that?
IIf we'd had a damn wall in the first place, none of this would be an issue

Why do the police look the other way when hundreds of thousands of undocumented aliens work the fields and slaughter houses of big agra.

Someone seeking sanctuary in a church is not working, right?  Arresting someone being protected by a church would be bad optics; arresting someone in the field _and_ fining the employer would be perfectly fine for us ... and for me, but not for big business - they like having cheap labor.  The police will only arrest and deport a fraction of undocumented aliens to keep things good for their greased palms and big business.

Do you think a wall costing tens of billions of dollars will solve this problem?  I really don't.  Make the wall 30 feet high and someone will come along with a 31 foot ladder ... or dig a tunnel.  Smuggling people into a country is big business; better and more effective law enforcement would get my money, not a wall that we're going to pay for, not Mexico.

We have whole cities and damn near whole states who will not enforce the law on immigration. How do you propose to get around that?

Quote from: Dave, Retired US Army on July 19, 2018, 01:13:37 PM
Jeez, have you ever heard of Sanctuary, or rather Stanktuary cities?
Where is law enforcement? We have entire cities spitting on our immigration laws and you think hiring more law enforcement is going to change that?
IIf we'd had a damn wall in the first place, none of this would be an issue

Why do the police look the other way when hundreds of thousands of undocumented aliens work the fields and slaughter houses of big agra.

Someone seeking sanctuary in a church is not working, right?  Arresting someone being protected by a church would be bad optics; arresting someone in the field _and_ fining the employer would be perfectly fine for us ... and for me, but not for big business - they like having cheap labor.  The police will only arrest and deport a fraction of undocumented aliens to keep things good for their greased palms and big business.

Do you think a wall costing tens of billions of dollars will solve this problem?  I really don't.  Make the wall 30 feet high and someone will come along with a 31 foot ladder ... or dig a tunnel.  Smuggling people into a country is big business; better and more effective law enforcement would get my money, not a wall that we're going to pay for, not Mexico.

You missed the rest of my post.

Each illegal is a lifetime net cost to taxpayers of $74,722
If the wall cut illegal entries in half (850,000), the wall would save $64 billion over ten years
The wall would pay for itself in two years (1.9-2.2 years, depending on cost)
It would save taxpayers 4-5 times its cost over 10 years

Also, take a moment and look at the wall currently being built. It stops all that you mentioned as well as drone surveillance.
And no, I don't have a single issue arresting illegals hiding in a church, screw your leftist optics BS, that's the crap leftists use to generate "EMOTION" amongst bleeding hearts that don't believe in the law.

If the wall stopped only 9-12% (160-180,000) of illegal crossing over the next decade, a $12-15 billion wall would pay for itself in ten years

https://www.cnsnews.com/blog/craig-bannister/border-wall-could-save-taxpayers-five-times-its-cost-over-10-years

We have whole cities and damn near whole states who will not enforce the law on immigration. How do you propose to get around that?

By enforcing the laws already on the books ___at their site or employment___.  Put the pressure on employers and make them pay fines for hiring undocumented workers.   Don't arrest them in churches, go to the fields, go to the slaughter houses.  Bring cameras and put this on the nightly news.  The word will get out and there will be more jobs for Americans = everyone will have to be documented.

Of we could build a wall that costs tens of billions of dollars.  Mexico will not pay for that wall, we already know that.  The US taxpayer will pay for it.  (The churches by the way receive a tax break - no federal taxes, so those undocumented aliens in churches are being subsidized by those of us who pay federal taxes.)

I suggest a sales tax increase as well as a gasoline tax increase and use that money to pay for the wall.  Compared to the rest of the industrialized world, the US pays half or less what they pay in Europe for gasoline.  Increase the sales tax by two percent and put that money towards the wall.   The money has to come from somewhere ... and we're already in a shitload of debt.

So, the wall it is!   Now we have to pay for it.