This is for those having a hard time wrapping their mind around the China Trade War.

China went into this without a single card, Trump held every "Trump" card. No pun intended...
As a business owner, the one thing you fear most is competition, be it a lemonade stand, fast food, or grocery store, they all have potential to cut your profits dramatically in half, or kill your business.
Trump viewed China as competition, he weighed his options and saw that he could win an outright trade war because we had already given China everything it wanted, needed and more, so for them, it was a lose lose proposition where negotiations were concerned.

So what happens when you are in business? You look to squash the competition, make them suffer enough to pull up stakes and seek a new location, or, if you are liquid and have the capital, you leverage a buy out and expand.
Trump offered them a great deal considering the impending consequence that is, but they turned Trump down. This was a huge mistake on the part of the Chinese, they still do not understand Capitalism.
Trump put them in a position of "take it or leave it", they left it, but here's the clincher. The Chinese are realizing just how badly they screwed themselves by playing what they thought was Trump's bluff, they assumed he would fold like all the other worthless leaders before him, they thought he feared public pressure and Wall Street. They thought wrong!

Trump doesn't bluff, he does his homework, he knows just how far to push, he knew China was in no position to bargain and he used that against them. I repeat this because now the Chinese think they can come back to the table and accept his original offer, but in business, it doesn't work that way, especially when you see your competition hemorrhaging money.
Their economy was already on the skids, employment is struggling, reports over the last two years out of China by the Chinese Govt claimed they'd be in a predictable 30 year mild recession (on Chinese measures), a recession in any Western economy would be crippling by comparison.
India, Nam, Brazil are all emerging competition for China. Trump went out and made deals with all of them, befriended them like never before. See how he set the field before his strike against China?

That's Right, he hated the way China was abusing American industry and was Hell bent on correcting this mistake and bringing business back to the States.

China is no longer in a position to bargain, they will be forced to accept whatever Trump offers and be glad they even got any deal.
The question is, will Trump give them any deal at all?

Quote from: Solar on June 03, 2019, 11:07:43 AM
This is for those having a hard time wrapping their mind around the China Trade War.

China went into this without a single card, Trump held every "Trump" card. No pun intended...
As a business owner, the one thing you fear most is competition, be it a lemonade stand, fast food, or grocery store, they all have potential to cut your profits dramatically in half, or kill your business.
Trump viewed China as competition, he weighed his options and saw that he could win an outright trade war because we had already given China everything it wanted, needed and more, so for them, it was a lose lose proposition where negotiations were concerned.

So what happens when you are in business? You look to squash the competition, make them suffer enough to pull up stakes and seek a new location, or, if you are liquid and have the capital, you leverage a buy out and expand.
Trump offered them a great deal considering the impending consequence that is, but they turned Trump down. This was a huge mistake on the part of the Chinese, they still do not understand Capitalism.
Trump put them in a position of "take it or leave it", they left it, but here's the clincher. The Chinese are realizing just how badly they screwed themselves by playing what they thought was Trump's bluff, they assumed he would fold like all the other worthless leaders before him, they thought he feared public pressure and Wall Street. They thought wrong!

Trump doesn't bluff, he does his homework, he knows just how far to push, he knew China was in no position to bargain and he used that against them. I repeat this because now the Chinese think they can come back to the table and accept his original offer, but in business, it doesn't work that way, especially when you see your competition hemorrhaging money.
Their economy was already on the skids, employment is struggling, reports over the last two years out of China by the Chinese Govt claimed they'd be in a predictable 30 year mild recession (on Chinese measures), a recession in any Western economy would be crippling by comparison.
India, Nam, Brazil are all emerging competition for China. Trump went out and made deals with all of them, befriended them like never before. See how he set the field before his strike against China?

That's Right, he hated the way China was abusing American industry and was Hell bent on correcting this mistake and bringing business back to the States.

China is no longer in a position to bargain, they will be forced to accept whatever Trump offers and be glad they even got any deal.
The question is, will Trump give them any deal at all?

Basically, Trump created the competition that Trump needed to have leverage with China. He showed these other countries they had a shot at the largest market in the world - the USA. The Chinese did not believe he could and would do this. This is another prime example of Trump thinking outside the normal political and diplomatic boxes.

Quote from: supsalemgr on June 03, 2019, 11:23:10 AM
Basically, Trump created the competition that Trump needed to have leverage with China. He showed these other countries they had a shot at the largest market in the world - the USA. The Chinese did not believe he could and would do this. This is another prime example of Trump thinking outside the normal political and diplomatic boxes.

Exactly Sup!
He set the board in his favor even before approaching China, and the beauty of this is, he did it in two years, all the while being attacked by the left and removing barriers created over decades by leftists in both party's favorable to China.
If that isn't Superman, I don't know what is.

Man, I love this guy!

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/us-arms-sale-to-taiwan-china-warns-serious-harm-request-m1a2-abrams-tanks-2019-06-06/

QuoteTaipei, Taiwan — Taiwan confirmed Thursday it has asked to purchase more than 100 tanks from the U.S., along with air defense and anti-tank missile systems in a major potential arms sale that drew immediate protest from China. A Defense Ministry statement said it has submitted a letter of request for 108 cutting-edge M1A2 Abrams tanks, 1,240 TOW anti-armor missiles, 409 Javelin anti-tank missiles and 250 Stinger man-portable air defense systems.

It just doesn't stop....

Quote from: taxed on June 06, 2019, 06:49:43 PM
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/us-arms-sale-to-taiwan-china-warns-serious-harm-request-m1a2-abrams-tanks-2019-06-06/



It just doesn't stop....

Beat me to it.

The United States is pursuing the sale of more than $2 billion worth of tanks and weapons to Taiwan, four people familiar with the negotiations said, sparking anger from Beijing which is already involved in an escalating trade war with Washington.

An informal notification of the proposed sale has been sent to the U.S. Congress, the four sources said on condition of anonymity because they were not authorized to speak about the possible deal.

The potential sale included 108 General Dynamics Corp M1A2 Abrams tanks worth around $2 billion as well as anti-tank and anti-aircraft munitions, three of the sources said. Taiwan has been interested in refreshing its existing U.S.-made battle tank inventory, which includes M60 Patton tanks.

The congressional notifications included a variety of anti-tank munitions, including 409 Raytheon Co and Lockheed Martin Corp-made Javelin missiles worth as much as $129 million, two of the sources said.

The notifications also included 1,240 TOW anti-tank missiles worth as much as $299 million, one of the sources said. There were also 250 stinger missiles worth as much as $223 million in the notification, the source said.

Stingers are often used in portable anti-aircraft weapons systems.

As Benny Hill used to say, "Odumtubud" Oh Damn Too Bad... 

The Chinese government condemned the planned sale.

"We are severely concerned about the U.S. move and are firmly against U.S. arms sales to Taiwan," Foreign Ministry spokesman Geng Shuang told a daily news briefing in Beijing.

China urges the United States to stop arms sales to Taiwan and prudently deal with issues relating to Taiwan to prevent harm to bilateral relations and peace and stability in the Taiwan Strait, he added.

Oh, so soddy....

https://news.yahoo.com/arrest-of-los-alamos-scientist-opens-new-front-in-crackdown-on-chinese-infiltration-of-us-labs-172208027.html

QuoteWASHINGTON — The indictment last week of a former researcher at Los Alamos National Laboratory in Santa Fe, N.M., appears to signal a new front in the government's crackdown on China's efforts to get access to sensitive U.S. scientific research.

Turab Lookman, 67, a theoretical physicist, was charged with lying on three occasions about his contacts with the Thousand Talents Plan, a Chinese government program aimed at funding and recruiting international experts. He has pleaded not guilty in federal court in Albuquerque.

Lookman was not charged with sharing secrets with the Chinese government, but with lying about research grants he received under the program. The Thousand Talents Plan has become a contentious issue between the U.S. and China owing to its focus on cutting-edge, often dual-use research. Los Alamos Labs, part of the Department of Energy, was where the atom bomb was developed and continues to host ongoing sensitive research on nuclear technology and other areas of national security, making it a prime target for infiltration.

Several previous DOJ cases since then-Attorney General Jeff Sessions announced his China Initiative in November 2018 have focused on intellectual-property theft from the private sector, Chinese state-sponsored hacking and Chinese recruitment of former U.S. intelligence officers. Cracking down on Chinese efforts to obtain information on basic scientific research is another, apparently new part of the initiative.

Like anyone who took economics in college in the past several decades I was taught that free trade good, tariffs bad. I read the same from conservative economics people in the press.  I always try to look at both sides of an issue and recently, in foreign affairs, find myself agreeing with the other side. I never really looked at the free trade issue.

How much of the free trade issue is dogma? How much can be empircally examined? Yes I know the arguments are that tariffs harm both sides are partially true. How do the benefits of no tariffs compare with the harm of no tariffs to people in the US? AND which people in the US?

I know that no tariffs means cheaper stuff for US consumers, but is that the only metric worth examining?  When manufacturing workers have their lives destroyed and their towns along with them how is that negative figured into the equation? I doubt that it is.

Donald J. Trump
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If we are able to make the deal with Mexico, & there is a good chance that we will, they will begin purchasing Farm & Agricultural products at very high levels, starting immediately. If we are unable to make the deal, Mexico will begin paying Tariffs at the 5% level on Monday!

Looks like Mexico will be paying for the wall after all.......

Quote from: Billy's bayonet on June 07, 2019, 01:38:55 PM
Looks like Mexico will be paying for the wall after all.......

BINGO!!!

Quote from: patentlymn on June 07, 2019, 10:29:22 AM
Like anyone who took economics in college in the past several decades I was taught that free trade good, tariffs bad.

In an ideal scenario, that's what you want.

Quote
I read the same from conservative economics people in the press.  I always try to look at both sides of an issue and recently, in foreign affairs, find myself agreeing with the other side. I never really looked at the free trade issue.

What's the "other side"?

Quote
How much of the free trade issue is dogma?

Elaborate.  I'm not sure I'm following...

Quote
How much of the free trade issue is dogma? How much can be empircally examined? Yes I know the arguments are that tariffs harm both sides are partially true. How do the benefits of no tariffs compare with the harm of no tariffs to people in the US? AND which people in the US?

Take China, for example.  Let's say they want to shut down an industry here in the US that is important for our infrastructure and national security: steel.  Being a communist country, they subsidize steel production and create a ridiculous amount of supply without a care in the world for cost, then dump it here to the United States for less than what it takes us to manufacture and produce it.  Think about that.  Meanwhile, as they are killing our steel industry, they laugh as the "conservatives" here run around an inaccurately point to Adam Smith about tariffs, screaming "what about free trade?!?!".  These people are retarded parrots who have no solution on how to bring China to heel, and really have no understanding, or frankly care, about what China does to us.

Quote
I know that no tariffs means cheaper stuff for US consumers,

That's not necessarily true.  Many times businesses head to China with the hope of tapping into the market of a billion people.  Once they find out it's fool's gold, it's too  late.

Quote
but is that the only metric worth examining?

If it is, the United States is making more sense every day.  Our energy costs are dropping, and productivity is increasing, which means we can generate more output with less labor than China can with outdated machinery, tech, etc.

Quote
  When manufacturing workers have their lives destroyed and their towns along with them how is that negative figured into the equation? I doubt that it is.

That's correct.  Not only that, China targets those towns SPECIFICALLY with dumping fentanyl.

I did an article to try and sort some of this out: https://conservativehardliner.com/we-should-stop-doing-business-china

About that Trade War. 

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Dow Jones has best week of the year!

Let's assume China quits exporting to the US. Could or would prices suddenly skyrocket?
Based on the top 10 exports China makes, I'd say we'd probably never even notice, outside of a small increase in prices over a period of time.
I'm no expert, but I know for a fact we produce some of what is on this list and could easily begin full production of the remaining products.

The following export product groups represent the highest dollar value in Chinese global shipments during 2018. Also shown is the percentage share each export category represents in terms of overall exports from China.

Electrical machinery, equipment: US$664.4 billion (26.6% of total exports)
Machinery including computers: $430 billion (17.2%)
Furniture, bedding, lighting, signs, prefab buildings: $96.4 billion (3.9%)
Plastics, plastic articles: $80.1 billion (3.2%)
Vehicles: $75.1 billion (3%)
Knit or crochet clothing, accessories: $73.5 billion (2.9%)
Clothing, accessories (not knit or crochet): $71.4 billion (2.9%)
Optical, technical, medical apparatus: $71.4 billion (2.9%)
Articles of iron or steel: $65.6 billion (2.6%)
Organic chemicals: $59.8 billion (2.4%)
China's top 10 exports accounted for approximately two-thirds (67.7%) of the overall value of its global shipments.

Organic chemicals represent the fastest-growing among China's top 10 export categories from 2017 to 2018, thanks to a 20.2% gain.

In second place for improving export sales was the 15.6% increase for the articles made from iron or steel category.

China's exported plastics and items made from plastic posted the third-fastest gain in value, up 14.5% year over year.

The sole decliner among the top 10 Chinese exports was unknitted and non-crocheted clothing and accessories which declined by -2.7%.

http://www.worldstopexports.com/chinas-top-10-exports/

Quote from: Solar on June 08, 2019, 01:21:04 PM
Let's assume China quits exporting to the US. Could or would prices suddenly skyrocket?
Based on the top 10 exports China makes, I'd say we'd probably never even notice, outside of a small increase in prices over a period of time.
I'm no expert, but I know for a fact we produce some of what is on this list and could easily begin full production of the remaining products.

The following export product groups represent the highest dollar value in Chinese global shipments during 2018. Also shown is the percentage share each export category represents in terms of overall exports from China.

Electrical machinery, equipment: US$664.4 billion (26.6% of total exports)
Machinery including computers: $430 billion (17.2%)
Furniture, bedding, lighting, signs, prefab buildings: $96.4 billion (3.9%)
Plastics, plastic articles: $80.1 billion (3.2%)
Vehicles: $75.1 billion (3%)
Knit or crochet clothing, accessories: $73.5 billion (2.9%)
Clothing, accessories (not knit or crochet): $71.4 billion (2.9%)
Optical, technical, medical apparatus: $71.4 billion (2.9%)
Articles of iron or steel: $65.6 billion (2.6%)
Organic chemicals: $59.8 billion (2.4%)
China's top 10 exports accounted for approximately two-thirds (67.7%) of the overall value of its global shipments.

Organic chemicals represent the fastest-growing among China's top 10 export categories from 2017 to 2018, thanks to a 20.2% gain.

In second place for improving export sales was the 15.6% increase for the articles made from iron or steel category.

China's exported plastics and items made from plastic posted the third-fastest gain in value, up 14.5% year over year.

The sole decliner among the top 10 Chinese exports was unknitted and non-crocheted clothing and accessories which declined by -2.7%.

http://www.worldstopexports.com/chinas-top-10-exports/

Yep. It could bring these industries back to the USA if not picked up by other countries. If it becomes the responsibility of US companies it would mean there is no foreign competition. I think how our country responded for WW II reflects what we are capable of.

Quote from: supsalemgr on June 09, 2019, 05:06:46 AM
Yep. It could bring these industries back to the USA if not picked up by other countries. If it becomes the responsibility of US companies it would mean there is no foreign competition. I think how our country responded for WW II reflects what we are capable of.

That's the thing, we used to make these, all of these products, but because of greed and NAFTA, business was able to flee heavy handed leftist policy and taxes, so they did.
If anyone had noticed over the decades, most American corporations only hang a coat in the US, they no longer show loyalty to American ideals, they have lost their soul, they have also mostly been taken over by leftists via Soros money.