Teacher on a mission

Started by Proud teacher, June 10, 2017, 07:16:49 PM

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taxed

I'm actually all for abandoning schools and turning them into condos.
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Solar

Quote from: taxed on June 12, 2017, 08:59:44 AM
I'm actually all for abandoning schools and turning them into condos.
Veterans could use some cheap housing. :biggrin:
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taxed

Quote from: Solar on June 12, 2017, 11:27:56 AM
Veterans could use some cheap housing. :biggrin:

The structure could finally be put to some good use!
#PureBlood #TrumpWon

topside

Quote from: Solar on June 12, 2017, 11:27:56 AM
Veterans could use some cheap housing. :biggrin:

You wouldn't put our Veterans in some of those schools. They'd need to be armed.  :scared:

Hoofer

Quote from: Proud teacher on June 11, 2017, 09:38:08 PM
First, to this from HooferYou are absolutely right. I set rules for myself.
I am under no obligation to respond in kind - you already know that.

QuoteHooferFair question. I guess that my main concern has to do with the promises made by charter schools that aren't being delivered. In my state, almost all charter schools perform worse than the local public schools in their area on standardized testing.
Standardized testing is a complete JOKE - you already know that too!   When a teacher spends the entire year trying to get enough into the kids to "PASS the TEST" at the end of the year, where or when is there room for "critical thinking" or "polishing the 4-R's".  Standardized testing does not begin to compare with testing of 40 years ago, or older, of which most teachers (with degrees), under the age of 50, couldn't pass without the internet at their disposal.

QuoteBecause these schools are not supported by property taxes, they often lack the supplies they need to help their students succeed.
That's BS - but you already know that too.

QuoteI am concerned about the accountability of home school programs. It is easier to avoid the testing that is common in our society. Sometimes this makes it difficult to compare schools to what is going on in a home school.
Sure, what's really difficult to compare, going back to TESTING, if the public schools threw out the political correctness & forced indoctrination (which is tested), and reinserted education and tested for intelligence and critical thinking... they *might* be able to go toe-to-toe with the average Homeschooler.  But, that's not going to happen, because public schooling is agenda driven for political correctness.
Hence, I am actually in favor of public schools, since Home Schoolers are the emerging leaders, in vision, intellect, history, STEM, etc.

What is really telling, visit a typical Community College and take a look at the first year courses.  Math, Reading, etc., all basic elements of a 6th grader - these are PASS / FAIL subjects, and they're not just "offered" as remedial courses, the ignorant public school kids are required to test out of, before they can move on.

QuoteI believe that there are often holes left in a child's public school education., especially if the home school family is of limited means.
FIFY (fixed it for ya, now we agree)

QuoteQuality instruction in music, for example, can get very expensive. I would be concerned if some really crucial experiences were left out of a child's education. Even as a trained teacher, I wouldn't be qualified to teach my child everything or to know everything that might benefit them.
You and I both know this is the party-line-statement, and naturally false.  WHOA!  Do you mean you actually teach outside the curriculum handed down to you from the school board?   Any teacher, can teach nearly any subject - if both teacher and student are using TEXT BOOKS.  Without exception, no K-12 teacher launches into the school year, without a carefully designed curriculum.

QuoteI also worry about the majority a small minority of home public schooled children.
FIFY  Don't imply there are Homeschoolers "slipping through the cracks" when the chasm in every classroom has a safety net (just pass 'em to get rid of them).

QuoteSometimes, parents home school their children to avoid acknowledging their child has a learning disability. Sometimes, parents realize their child has a learning disability very late after significant damage has been done. There is even that incredibly small minority of parents who keep their children out of schools to hide abuse or neglect. 
Another feigned concerned talking-point from the educational monarchy.   Oh sure, you'll find ONE, somewhere in nowhere, and *that* becomes the instant example of how awful home educators are - and need to be "regulated" and "tested" to stricter standards.   Honest question:  How stupid do you think I am?  Tell me, why do Public Schools have Safety Officers?  Why is the Internet filled with stories of sex between Teachers and Students in Public Schools?  Why does common knowledge of educating the disabled, escape you?   You also know, the best progress with developmentally disabled is one-on-one, so how is a disconnected non-parent superior to a loving, connected parent?

QuoteI haven't heard rhetoric from liberals that compares non-union workers to home schoolers. Mostly, when I hear discussion about non-union workers among liberals, it is in reference to low income workers who put in crazy hours at several jobs and cannot afford to feed their family. There is a sense of sadness about that and a desire to try to find a way to help them.
(I'm trying NOT to gag - maybe I'll suck down a beer, or in the public educator's world a crisp Chardonnay - to bring a sense of... "feeling" to your plight.)   Really, does it keep you awake at night?  Do you shed tears of sorrow over the disadvantaged, intellectual superior home school kids?

QuoteHoofer  Hoofer, it sounds like you are speaking from personal experience.  I'd love to hear your story.
Again, I question your honesty.

For a so-called Liberal Teacher, how do you manage, knowing so little about your own system, and competing systems of education?
Once upon a time, Critical Thinking was encouraged, exemplified and the motto was, "Question Authority!" - has been replaced with "Rebel Against Authority!"   
Once upon a time, the Liberal Teacher was breathing new-life into a dull, boring text book, with insight and wisdom - that too, has become "Teaching to Pass the Test".   

How do you sleep at night, knowing, the very "system" your liberal education condemned - you have become the vehicle of indoctrination?

If you truly are a LIBERAL, a FREE THINKER, in the classic sense, the only answer is Home Schooling.  That's correct, it's not a conservative thing, Home Schooling is the ultimate home of liberty.
All animals are created equal; Some just take longer to cook.   Survival is keeping an eye on those around you...

Proud teacher

Quote from: topside on June 12, 2017, 05:06:31 AM
There are some that drop a comment and then don't come back. So I did chide you a bit ... but glad you stayed. We all have lives besides writing on this forum ... I think. I'm fairly new and would say that you'll find this group very honest and a bit rough sometimes. My advice is to stick through discussions if you find them harsh because some here have deep backgrounds and it's worth the time to mine through some of the harsh surface comments. Soft responses to harsh words sometimes return replies with thoughtful ingredients.

Regarding my experience with education: I grew up in the public schools in St. Louis in the 70's. It was a battle ground; black and white. There were days when helicopters flew in to calm the tensions. We paid to put our three girls through private school and did home school (really cooperative) because we wanted them to get both a spiritual education and the basics. When adults try to keep God and his principles out of the school, what do you expect to happen in the school? We also went private to diminish the rate at which adult topics enter their lives. Of course, we paid our taxes and I did some work in trying to motivate math in the local high school (my background is math / engineering) - that teacher I helped didn't have a chance to teach much just due to the mass chaos of getting about 35 kids in and out of classes five times a day. I could go on, but public schools are broken in so many ways. There are some great teachers and I appreciate and respect them. But there are many that hate the kids and their jobs ... need to be put out. That's another problem with the unions.

I'm not offering general comments at this point. I think this group has given you enough to respond to for now.
Thanks for the welcome, topside! I have found this conversation very interesting so far. I am very comfortable with a challenging tone and with passionate rhetoric. Certainly, nothing that has been said is much different than what I hear my friends saying to (and about) conservatives.  There are two things I would like to say about what you posted. First, I find that many of the principles I teach in my classroom mirror those that you might find in Christianity. Do unto others as you'd have done to you. Honor your parents. Love your enemy. Share the gifts God gave you, but don't become prideful.  I don't bring up God, but I won't shut a student down if they wish to make a connection between their Faith and my lesson. Making connections is how people learn. They usually get a smile and a response from me that lets them know that I heard them and validate their connection.
The second thing I would like to address is this. I know that you believe that there are many teachers that hate the kids and hate their jobs. I have been teaching for 11 years. I have worked or volunteered in some capacity or another in many school districts in three states. I have never met a single teacher who hates kids. I have met some who were frustrated with their jobs. All of them have left the profession. It's not worth staying in if you hate it. It is too much work and takes too much emotional investment on a daily basis. People who hate the work leave.

Proud teacher

Quote from: supsalemgr on June 12, 2017, 04:59:15 AM
"I'm sorry that they were unresponsive. Would you be willing to tell me what concerns you had that made you decide to leave?"

It became clear to us the school administrators were much more concerned with a PC message and indoctrination than concern for individual students and parental concerns. It was not necessarily the teachers, but they had little control. A big part of this began when Jimmy Carter created the Department of Education. I do not believe bureaucrats in Washington know what is best for students in any locality. With private schools the administrators are responsible to parents who pay the freight. The school my son graduated from was not a religion backed school. It had very high standards and 100% of my son's graduating class went onto college. My son barely got out with a C average, yet he was accepted by a large out of state university. I was curious about how this could happen. I asked the counselor  on the orientation trip and she said, " We are very familiar with ------- ---- and inflate GPA's of students that come from there. Now that is a quality education.

A quality education indeed. I hear similar comments from parents about our school system. Congratulations on your son's acceptance to a good college and a good education. Lots of people on this thread have expressed concern about leftist indoctrination in public schools. I would love to hear from everyone who would like to share what  topics/issues you consider to be leftist indoctrination that you believe are being covered in public schools. I have some guesses, but prefer to hear from you rather than jump to conclusions.

Solar

Quote from: Proud teacher on June 12, 2017, 08:34:04 PM
A quality education indeed. I hear similar comments from parents about our school system. Congratulations on your son's acceptance to a good college and a good education. Lots of people on this thread have expressed concern about leftist indoctrination in public schools. I would love to hear from everyone who would like to share what  topics/issues you consider to be leftist indoctrination that you believe are being covered in public schools. I have some guesses, but prefer to hear from you rather than jump to conclusions.
P
PC alone is indoctrination, it's not what they're taught, it's what they aren't allowed to learn, let alone discuss.
You mention homeschooling and lack of testing? I'm going to guess, you know absolutely nothing about it, do you?
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Proud teacher

Quote from: topside on June 12, 2017, 08:21:36 AM
Personal experience has value – but limited value due to localization. There are systemic questions that have far-reaching impacts on the whole. To summarize, below is suggested: 1) an urgent question about current experience, 2) a societal question about who has control over teaching our children, and 3) a political question as to oversight of the educational system. Some of the postings (including one of mine) are focus on personal experience which is good to exchange but less relevant with respect to the systemic questions.

Regarding the value of experience: Proud Teacher is having a generally good experience in the public school. Others, including myself, had had bad experience with public schools and good experience with private school, including home school. These localize experiences show that either experience can be good or bad. Analogy: You can live in a prison and get a good meal. You can have great parents and end up on drugs. But, in general, life sucks for people in prison and well-balanced kids had good parents.

The urgent question is whether the most likely experience for the children and parents is either system is positive or negative in some sense.

The societal question is whether the system is promoting a particular philosophy that a parent would not want to teach our children – for it is the parents God given right and responsibility to teach our children in the way they should go. It is a right that parents get to choose how their children are educated – whether it is via a public school or other option like home school.

The political question is whether the government or a union should be involved at all in the educational system. The Conservative response is that government should be limited as much as possible – not in control of many things including our educational system. That was what the Founding Fathers identified and it was genius because they understood that even those with the best intentions aren't sustained ... corruption will eventually become entangled. The government might offer an option – but it should not come with a mandate. In fact, the government should not control an option because even a good system will eventually fall into corruption. A union can offer support but it should not become a requirement for similar reasons. Ideally, we wouldn't need either the government or unions to supply good educational options for our children.

The evidence from posts that aren't just local experience suggest: 1) Urgent: The majority of students suffer at the hands of public education, 2) Societal: The government has / is trying to take the choice to teach our children out of the parents hands, 3) Political: Government and union control of schools is harmful to the interests of our children.

1): I disagree. The United States has more power than any other nation in the world. The majority of ideas that shape science, the arts, literature come from the United States. This is not to say we have a perfect system. We do not. However, the majority of students do not suffer in public education. They thrive. I do have concern for the minority that is struggling.

2): once again, I disagree. The government allows parents to home school, enroll their children in private schools, charter schools, or traditional public schools. There are online schools for kids as young as kindergarten. I believe that the government does have a responsibility to provide a well funded public school system that can meet the needs of students at a high level. It is essential that we are all well educated to insure a functional democracy, and I think that public education is meeting that need very well, especially in states which have pride in their public schools.

3): The federal government doesn't have much say about what happens in schools. Lots of those decisions are controlled at a state or local level. The union does not tell anyone what to teach. It's members teach children, but if the union put out a pamphlet trying to tell me what to teach, I would throw it out. Then I would write a very angry letter. Here's a thought to consider: a teacher's union's desire is often the same as what students want. Students and teachers both want school to be safe.  Students and teachers both want great supplies and facilities so that learning can happen. Students and teachers both want high standards for teachers. I believe this is why there is a correlation between states with robust unions and public school success. Not because unions advocate for teacher pay, but because the union is made up of teachers who genuinely care about public schools and student success.

I know that a lot of these things are sticking points where we may not be able to find common ground. We have different views about the role of government that no amount of discussion on this forum will change. That said, we do share this common ground: virtually everyone involved in this discussion seems passionate about children learning. We want critical thinkers, students who develop many skill sets, and we care about kids. This is a starting point for a productive discussion.

Cryptic Bert


Proud teacher

Quote from: Hoofer on June 12, 2017, 07:29:55 PM
I am under no obligation to respond in kind - you already know that.
Standardized testing is a complete JOKE - you already know that too!   When a teacher spends the entire year trying to get enough into the kids to "PASS the TEST" at the end of the year, where or when is there room for "critical thinking" or "polishing the 4-R's".  Standardized testing does not begin to compare with testing of 40 years ago, or older, of which most teachers (with degrees), under the age of 50, couldn't pass without the internet at their disposal.
   That's BS - but you already know that too.
Sure, what's really difficult to compare, going back to TESTING, if the public schools threw out the political correctness & forced indoctrination (which is tested), and reinserted education and tested for intelligence and critical thinking... they *might* be able to go toe-to-toe with the average Homeschooler.  But, that's not going to happen, because public schooling is agenda driven for political correctness.
Hence, I am actually in favor of public schools, since Home Schoolers are the emerging leaders, in vision, intellect, history, STEM, etc.

What is really telling, visit a typical Community College and take a look at the first year courses.  Math, Reading, etc., all basic elements of a 6th grader - these are PASS / FAIL subjects, and they're not just "offered" as remedial courses, the ignorant public school kids are required to test out of, before they can move on.
  FIFY (fixed it for ya, now we agree)
You and I both know this is the party-line-statement, and naturally false.  WHOA!  Do you mean you actually teach outside the curriculum handed down to you from the school board?   Any teacher, can teach nearly any subject - if both teacher and student are using TEXT BOOKS.  Without exception, no K-12 teacher launches into the school year, without a carefully designed curriculum.
  FIFY  Don't imply there are Homeschoolers "slipping through the cracks" when the chasm in every classroom has a safety net (just pass 'em to get rid of them).
Another feigned concerned talking-point from the educational monarchy.   Oh sure, you'll find ONE, somewhere in nowhere, and *that* becomes the instant example of how awful home educators are - and need to be "regulated" and "tested" to stricter standards.   Honest question:  How stupid do you think I am?  Tell me, why do Public Schools have Safety Officers?  Why is the Internet filled with stories of sex between Teachers and Students in Public Schools?  Why does common knowledge of educating the disabled, escape you?   You also know, the best progress with developmentally disabled is one-on-one, so how is a disconnected non-parent superior to a loving, connected parent?
(I'm trying NOT to gag - maybe I'll suck down a beer, or in the public educator's world a crisp Chardonnay - to bring a sense of... "feeling" to your plight.)   Really, does it keep you awake at night?  Do you shed tears of sorrow over the disadvantaged, intellectual superior home school kids?
Again, I question your honesty.

For a so-called Liberal Teacher, how do you manage, knowing so little about your own system, and competing systems of education?
Once upon a time, Critical Thinking was encouraged, exemplified and the motto was, "Question Authority!" - has been replaced with "Rebel Against Authority!"   
Once upon a time, the Liberal Teacher was breathing new-life into a dull, boring text book, with insight and wisdom - that too, has become "Teaching to Pass the Test".   

How do you sleep at night, knowing, the very "system" your liberal education condemned - you have become the vehicle of indoctrination?

If you truly are a LIBERAL, a FREE THINKER, in the classic sense, the only answer is Home Schooling.  That's correct, it's not a conservative thing, Home Schooling is the ultimate home of liberty.

Standardized testing is overemphasized, but it is not a complete joke. I teach music, so state/national standardized testing isn't a part of my regular work life. However, I've asked teachers in my building how they feel about it. The general consensus is that it takes more time than it should and carries more weight than it should, but that it tells them a lot of information about their students that is useful. Preparing for testing is only part of what teachers do, though. Often times, they design really exciting, worth while, real world lessons that also prepare kids for doing well on standardized testing. Just because we are teaching basic skills does not mean we are abandoning higher level ones. It is possible to do more than one thing at a time.

It is not BS that charter schools lack funding for basic supplies and for teacher salaries. Or, at least, it is not how they end up using those funds. I have read requests from teachers at charter schools begging for supplies that we have in abundance: paper, pencils, art supplies, and musical instruments just to name a few. I wish students were getting supplies that would put them on equal footing with public schools or private schools. Unfortunately, that isn't always happening. It gets even more complicated when for-profit companies attempt to run charter schools.How do you suppose they save enough money to turn a profit?

QuoteWHOA!  Do you mean you actually teach outside the curriculum handed down to you from the school board?

Curriculum isn't handed down to me from the school board. It is designed by teachers with a background in the subject and is constantly being reviewed and changed. I've been designing the music curriculum in my district collectively with other music teachers for 11 years. Even then, the curriculum doesn't take up every lesson I teach. There is lots of room for exploration of areas that I feel it is important for students to learn that goes beyond the curriculum. Meanwhile, the school board has to decide which teacher developed initiatives to fund to improve student learning. Some of them are ideas I've mentioned in previous posts. Others include a program to teach children with IQ's exceeding 145 and a high school that partners with local businesses and nonprofits to solve real world problems and offer students on the job experience before they graduate.

QuoteAny teacher, can teach nearly any subject - if both teacher and student are using TEXT BOOKS.
Text books are a good starting point, but are far from the whole story. I use the textbooks primarily as references to find suitable songs for my students to learn. Rarely, I find a good lesson or two. A text book cannot teach a student to match pitch when they sing. I can. Not everyone can, and a text book definitely can't.
A textbook cannot teach a student proper instrumental technique. I can.  Not everyone can, and a text book definitely can't. A textbook cannot offer critical feedback on performance interpretation or help students develop their own opinion of how a piece should be performed. I can. Not every teacher can, and a textbook definitely can't.

Could I teach a science lesson from a text book? Yes. At best, all I would do is present the lesson effectively, though. I lack the depth of background to really know how to take it beyond, to the point where an indifferent student might look up and say, "wait a minute. This is interesting." That is why specialization matters to students.

I know a former music teacher who now works at a church. Her church has a lot of home schoolers. She has shared her concerns about the fact that the home school children in her music ministry lack a lot of the basic musical foundations of public school students that she sees. I suggested that she offer music classes to home schoolers to rectify this. I don't know if she's taken on this mission, but she seemed very excited about the idea. There are holes left in a home school education sometimes.

QuoteOh sure, you'll find ONE, somewhere in nowhere, and *that* becomes the instant example of how awful home educators are - and need to be "regulated" and "tested" to stricter standards.   Honest question:  How stupid do you think I am?  Tell me, why do Public Schools have Safety Officers?  Why is the Internet filled with stories of sex between Teachers and Students in Public Schools?  Why does common knowledge of educating the disabled, escape you?   You also know, the best progress with developmentally disabled is one-on-one, so how is a disconnected non-parent superior to a loving, connected parent?

A few years ago, you might have been right. I might have been satisfied to find the one example of an awful home educator and close the book. I don't feel that way anymore. I am not an expert on home school, but I have come to the conclusion based on what I do know that it can be done well, and often is. Sometimes it is not, and I'm not sure how those children are helped. The same is true of public schools. However, when we mess up, we're out front. People can see. Is there transparency for home schooling gone awry? I really hope so.

Regarding your comments on child abuse, yes, you can find examples of teachers doing deplorable things to students. If you can't find as many articles about home educators doing the same, perhaps it is because it is harder for kids to turn in their parents. According to the National Children's Alliance, about 4 out 5 child abusers are parents of their victims.

http://www.nationalchildrensalliance.org/media-room/media-kit/national-statistics-child-abuse

Let me be clear: I do not believe that any kind of majority of home educators are abusive. Nor do I believe it to be a small minority. It is a very small group of any set of adults that does these things.  Personally, I am very confident that you love your children and would never hurt them. However, just as it is fair for you to worry about what your teachers are doing, we care, too. We worry about what is happening to children. I was asked what I worry about with home schooling, and that is one thing.

Every child benefits from some one-on-one instruction. Regarding disabled children, they are most successful in their least restrictive environment. For some, that is a lot of time one on one. For others, it is in a social setting surrounded by typically functioning peers most of the day. For some, it depends on the subject area.

A parent's love trumps that of a teacher's. No question. However, teachers aren't disconnected. We care deeply for our students, and sometimes a little bit of distance helps people see things clearer, or gives us the ability to help in ways that a parent cannot. This is why it is really effective when parents and teachers work together.

QuoteReally, does it keep you awake at night?  Do you shed tears of sorrow over the disadvantaged, intellectual superior home school kids?

You misunderstood your own question. You asked me about rhetoric regarding non-union workers and how it compared it to home school students. I told you that I didn't see much comparison between home school students and non-union workers. Then, I shared what the discussion is about non-union workers in liberal circles. it centers around low paid non-union workers, mostly.

I do worry about the vast income inequality in this country a lot. I wonder what we can do as a society to help those who are not in a union advocate for themselves. Many of them cannot live a life where they can offer home schooling to their kids. I think unions can be a part of that solution, but certainly not the only solution. You don't have to believe my sincerity about that, but I am quite sincere when I say that it deeply troubles me. No, I do not spend time feeling sorry for home schoolers. I don't have to. Almost all of them are fine.

QuoteIf you truly are a LIBERAL, a FREE THINKER, in the classic sense, the only answer is Home Schooling.
Free thinking leaves room for many ideas and many possible right answers. There are lots of ways to learn. Home schooling is one way to teach a child. It can be effective in some circumstances and ineffective in others. It is an option for some children and not for others. The same can be truthfully said about public education as well. Advocating for "the only answer" does not sound like free thinking to me.

taxed

Quote from: Proud teacher on June 12, 2017, 09:25:04 PM
1): I disagree. The United States has more power than any other nation in the world. The majority of ideas that shape science, the arts, literature come from the United States. This is not to say we have a perfect system. We do not. However, the majority of students do not suffer in public education. They thrive. I do have concern for the minority that is struggling.
The majority of students suffer public education, by far.  If you had to do hiring, you'd know that as well.  Sadly, it's people like myself who are subjected to the horrible education of high school graduates.  I feel sorry for the students who have been misled to take the government school system seriously and put faith in it.  It's a shame that system has support from teachers like yourself.  To put it bluntly, if you had an idea about the crap your system is spewing out, you'd have a different tune.

Quote
2): once again, I disagree. The government allows
"The government allows?"  This is where teachers really go off the rails.

Quote
parents to home school, enroll their children in private schools, charter schools, or traditional public schools. There are online schools for kids as young as kindergarten. I believe that the government does have a responsibility to provide a well funded public school system that can meet the needs of students at a high level. It is essential that we are all well educated to insure a functional democracy, and I think that public education is meeting that need very well, especially in states which have pride in their public schools.
In no state does the public school system meet any standard.  Again, you aren't subject to the crap that is churned out.

Quote
3): The federal government doesn't have much say about what happens in schools.
I'll let the teachers unions and Dept of Ed know, along with the ridiculous subsidies that should be eliminated.

Quote
Lots of those decisions are controlled at a state or local level. The union does not tell anyone what to teach. It's members teach children, but if the union put out a pamphlet trying to tell me what to teach, I would throw it out.
No you wouldn't.  You'd do what you were told.  Unfortunately, most teachers don't have the skills or experience to survive outside of the teaching institutions.

Quote
Then I would write a very angry letter.
You'd have to put your address on it so they know where to send back the automated response.

Quote
Here's a thought to consider: a teacher's union's desire is often the same as what students want.
Incorrect.  Also, I wouldn't really call that a "thought".  That's you attempting to reach and put forth a point that is ridiculous, but may be bandied about by your peers.

Quote
Students and teachers both want school to be safe.
Please stop the propaganda and have a discussion.

Quote
  Students and teachers both want great supplies and facilities so that learning can happen.
This makes no sense.  Especially now, with the internet, there's really no place for public schools anymore.

Quote
Students and teachers both want high standards for teachers.
Again, you're just being disingenuous.

Quote
I believe this is why there is a correlation between states with robust unions and public school success. Not because unions advocate for teacher pay, but because the union is made up of teachers who genuinely care about public schools and student success.
Wrong.  All schools are crap.  You can find the exception here and there I'm sure, but generally it hurts the student.

Quote
I know that a lot of these things are sticking points where we may not be able to find common ground. We have different views about the role of government that no amount of discussion on this forum will change. That said, we do share this common ground: virtually everyone involved in this discussion seems passionate about children learning. We want critical thinkers, students who develop many skill sets, and we care about kids. This is a starting point for a productive discussion.

It appears you don't really understand what education is about, ironically.  If you don't have any experience in life, you can't teach.  In a better system, as an example, a retired aerospace engineer could walk into a school, say "I have all this great real-world STEM experience, and I can teach it to the kids".  The school would say "Great, we'll make room.  Send us your curriculum so we can let the parents and students know."  Instead, like most experienced people who would like to pass their decades of real-world knowledge down, they can't get a public school teaching job.

Public school hurts children.  It robs them of years of critical thinking during a time they should be developing it.  They are indoctrinated with Marxists propaganda where they learn to be good little future public employees and welfare recipients.

Shame on you for your support for a horrible system that hurts our country.
#PureBlood #TrumpWon

Hoofer

Quote from: Proud teacher on June 12, 2017, 10:53:21 PM
Standardized testing is overemphasized, but it is not a complete joke. I teach music, so state/national standardized testing isn't a part of my regular work life. However, I've asked teachers in my building how they feel about it. The general consensus is .....

You're not a *real* teacher in a public school, in fact, you can be replaced by a fledgling church organist.  You're a Troll.

I was correct to question your honesty, you've misrepresented yourself and much more of this nonsense would only serve to piss off dedicated teachers and honest, hard working, Union members.  This is truly laughable! 
All animals are created equal; Some just take longer to cook.   Survival is keeping an eye on those around you...

topside

Quote from: Hoofer on June 13, 2017, 04:02:20 AM
You're not a *real* teacher in a public school, in fact, you can be replaced by a fledgling church organist.  You're a Troll.

I was correct to question your honesty, you've misrepresented yourself and much more of this nonsense would only serve to piss off dedicated teachers and honest, hard working, Union members.  This is truly laughable!

I'm not so certain about "Troll" yet Hoofer. Certainly Pollyanna - has drank the cool-aide. In a bubble and not considering the general state of public education.

topside

Proud Teacher (PT) ... so much in your posts I can't even begin to respond.

So how about this. Our fed and states promote public education - it's what we have. You believe it's effective, and even promote the unions.

How about we let it go to the free market. Stop forcing people to pay tax dollars to support public education and let them choose where to put the funds to educate their children? Then all those who love public education can continue supporting the schools and those who seek other options, like Home School or private school, can choose that too. See - we don't need the government to be involved. It should work out, right? I like the idea that I don't have to pay double ... taxes for public schools and for my kids private or home schools.

Oh - and regarding the argument that the poor will suffer which I would hope is probably on the tip of your tongue. Put the unions to good use by having them advertise the need and distribute the funds wisely. Hmm ... but watch for those sticky fingers as the money passes through. I'll contribute to some of the less fortunate in paying a comparable amount as what it would cost me to educate my kids if the collectors convince me I can trust them. Costs per student should be less in a public school than for home school, right? Amortize the supply costs over all those children. 

Let's try it! It can't be any worse than what we have now.

Don't get me wrong. I LOVE good teachers ... and many are very good. I have the highest respect for all good teachers - even more so when they go into the war-zone schools in many of our cities. God bless and protect them! But the current system is broken for many reasons stated in the dialogue in this thread and the unions only make it worse as they promote meritocracy at best. Respectfully, I think you're living in a bubble.