Teacher on a mission

Started by Proud teacher, June 10, 2017, 07:16:49 PM

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Hoofer

Quote from: je_freedom on June 11, 2017, 10:25:40 AM
If you really want to improve education, you will want to read the following:

http://conservativepoliticalforum.com/political-discussion-and-debate/leftists-rabidly-oppose-education/

http://conservativepoliticalforum.com/library/get-all-you-can-from-school/

In short, the "education" SYSTEM was designed to LIMIT how much students learn.
A full discussion of that can be found in the book,
The Underground History of American Education.
The full text on that book can be found online in at least two locations.
A little searching can find them for you.

The "education" system was intentionally designed by social planners to cripple students' minds, to make them unable to understand how the social planners are taking advantage of them through the various institutions controlled by the social planners.
...

How right you are!

Not too many years ago, I was discussing the value of a well-rounded education to enter the work force, with ... an educator, who was running the business development office.  L.G. said employers want employees with just ONE skill set, or the employee moves on to other opportunities (like more pay).   Minimal skills + minimal wages = the perfect employee (who cannot advance).  the community college was more than happy to offer ONLY those college courses.  Corn De-tasseling 101, Oil change in 30min or less, Grocery Shelf restocking, etc.
Just destroying our future, one dropout at a time. 

Keep them uneducated & poor, they'll make good wards of the state and vote Democrat.  Too bad Donald Trump screwed up that plan.
All animals are created equal; Some just take longer to cook.   Survival is keeping an eye on those around you...

Billy's bayonet

So you want an honest and straightforward opinion and a spirited discussion but you don't want any of the "color" that goes a long with it....sounds like to don't like the brutality of fact, but here goes:

Are you asking about Teacher unions only or Unions in general? In my opinion you can't separate one from the other, both influence the other and both have an "Amicus Curiae" relationship. Unions are corrupt and self serving and decidedly LEFTIST....which is a nice way of saying a bunch of Marxists, either that or Mob/racketeer influenced.

This isn't something I made up either, my opinions are fact based as all of my positions on various issues that are marked by 25 years experience in Law Enforcement as everything from a plainclothes "nark" to an investigator to a mid level manager when I had to deal with Police Unions. Then Specifically, my cousin,as close to me as a sister, was a teacher for over 40 years, she and her husband got sick and fed up with the profession and retired some years ago in disgust.Their experiences added to mix.

It might also surprise you to learn I have a soft spot for Unions and working people as I grew up in a Union household and dear ol' daddy was a union official in the Western Pa steel mill. I also recall the mob violence connected with Jimmy the scumbag Hoffa when his teamster thugs tried to take over the unions and how they tried to intimidate and bully us.....It didn't work, a bunch of "Chicago Guinea's" (Dad's words)  don't mess with western Pa steel men ad railroaders and get away with it, not when everybody and their brother, all WW2 vets, have a deer rifle, a shotgun or a tire iron or a claw hammer in their car.

Suffice it to say I am not all that anti Union as I am anti Marxist and Anti mobster. Simple fact, today's Unions have both. The later I know for fact thru my investigative experience.

Now with backgrounds out of the way we shall address modern day "education" or perhaps I should say indoctrination. This is the reason I continue to dabble in the real estate market, flipping houses etc to send my Grandkids to private school or finance their home school. I want them learning, not being indoctrinated to leftist crap.

Yeah that's what I said, everyday I read about some teacher who calls the Boston Tea party terrorists or in some way shape or form engages in revisionist history or defames the founding fathers, Westward Expansion or various Americana history and culture. Then you have your absolute degenerate POS' who are having sex with their students, add in common core, add in no child left behind, transgender bathrooms and co ed showers and graduates who can't spell and never heard of the US Constitution, lets not forget the school policy about every time some kid acts like a kid you guys send him to the school nurse or psychiatrist who pump him full of behavior drugs to really twist his mind.

And the Union protects all the perverts, degenerates and unfit "teachers".....add everything up and you'll have some idea of the disgruntlement of not just myself but a large segment of the conservative population and even the centrists.

In short CLEANUP YOUR ACT. When the Unions purge themselves of the extreme leftists, the racketeers, the greedy dishonest lawyers who defend the slimiest of clients and once again become what they were meant to be then MAINSTREAM AMERICA might change their opinion.


Evil operates best when under a disguise

WHEN A CRIME GOES UNPUNISHED THE WORLD IS UNBALANCED

WHEN A WRONG IS UNAVENGED THE HEAVENS LOOK DOWN ON US IN SHAME

IMPEACH BIDEN

walkstall

Us much older people must remember teaches don't work on weekends, unless it under the table. 
A politician thinks of the next election. A statesman, of the next generation.- James Freeman Clarke

Always remember "Feelings Aren't Facts."

taxed

Quote from: Proud teacher on June 10, 2017, 07:16:49 PM
Hello, everyone.
Hi!!

Quote
I am a proud public school teacher and union member. I suspect that this puts me slightly at odds with a lot of you on a lot of issues. That brings me to why I'm posting.
Not at all.  We have members, and conservatives in general, who live in a state where they are forced to belong to a union, against their wishes, regardless of any skill or talent they may provide to an employer.  So, no worries, just because you are mandated to belong to a union if you want to work doesn't mean we assume you're a liberal.  Plus, some people like to teach, and any civilization should have a people wiling to pass knowledge on down, so I'm glad you're proud of doing that.

Quote
In all issues of great concern in this country, people spend a lot of time taking pot shots at one another.
I have no idea what this statement means.

Quote
If you don't end up hating the other side of the argument, you aren't listening to how nasty they've gotten. In the meantime, nothing gets better. I would like to see if I can have a real conversation about education in America with people who are never going to agree with me on most things.
I'm not really with you on all the hate stuff.  That sounds too exhausting.

Quote
I have come to this board with a few questions, and I hope you will ask me some, too. I will answer as honestly as I am able and will try to treat you with respect and dignity. I have an FYI before I ask my questions. You can say whatever you like, but I will not respond to any post with a personal attack. Criticize my ideas and opinions all you like, but name calling will get you nowhere.
Please let us know if we can make you feel more comfortable.  If you need one, we have a few safe spaces available, so don't hesitate to ask to reserve one.

Quote
My questions are:

Why do so many conservatives say venomously hateful things about public schools and support policies that undermine them?
Like what?

Quote
Why do so many conservatives have the same rhetoric and policies about teacher unions as they do about public schools?
I just don't like organizations that are legally allowed to force innocent people to register.  Unions are bad for workers, employers, and the economy in general.  People should be free to enter into agreements with an employer directly.  I don't see why we need a system that siphons worker dues and funneling it back into Democrat campaigns.  Just don't sit right none.

Quote
If you choose to respond to these questions, thank you.
You are very welcome.

Quote
I also would appreciate it if in your response you would tell me what you do for work. When talking about what I do for a living, it's easier to explain my point of view when I know what you do. I'm looking forward to a very interesting and spirited conversation.
Business stuff and such.
#PureBlood #TrumpWon

topside

Where'd our Proud teacher go? I was so looking forward to the "spirited" discussion. I think there was plenty of American Spirit in the posts that I read. Maybe the union saw him / her post (no gender declared) and told them to stop.  :popcorn:

Cryptic Bert

She thinks conservatives say venomously hateful things?

Proud teacher

Hello, everyone. I'm sorry to disappoint those of you who thought I was chased off by your arguments, but I'm still here. :smile:
Many of you also wondered why it took me two hours to compose my first post and why I haven't immediately gotten back to you. The simple fact is, in addition to being a proud teacher and union member, I'm also the proud father of two children: a three year old and a nine month old. I thought I could write my first post in a few moments, but was called away to put my kids to bed. After doing that and some household chores, I came back to write. By the time I had posted, two hours had past.
Today, my wife had to work and I was single parenting all day. My children's nap schedule did not afford me time to respond to you. So, I had to wait until now when I had a moment to read and give a thoughtful response to what you wrote. I will probably not be able to respond to everything in one post, as you all had a lot to say, but I will do my best to address the salient points that you made. If you felt I ignored your point, please bring it up again and I will try to respond.
First, to this from Hoofer
QuoteYou do not set the rules of this forum, or any thread - we are allowed to post at the pleasure of the owner(s), and can leave (or be booted) at any time, with or without reason.
You are absolutely right. I set rules for myself. I said I would ignore any posts where people take conversation to a level that is about personal insults, not about discussion of ideas. You are fully within your rights to call me names. It's your forum. I have been very appreciative that while many of you had some harsh criticism of public schools, teachers, and unions, you have been respectful. I will extend the same courtesy to you.

Walkstall
QuotePublic schools did nothing for me, but pass me on.
I am sorry that is what happened to you. It was a long time ago. In my experience as a teacher, students who struggle in school are offered all sorts of help. They get free tutoring in school in areas where they struggle by professionals who care about them and specialize in their particular struggles. Teachers work together with parents and community stakeholders to find ways to insure that child's needs are met and that they learn. Because people are imperfect, and institutions are imperfect, this does not happen effectively everywhere, but we have learned a lot more about how to help kids who struggle today.

Hoofer
QuoteWhy are the teaches unions and teaches so against Charter schools...?
Fair question. I guess that my main concern has to do with the promises made by charter schools that aren't being delivered. In my state, almost all charter schools perform worse than the local public schools in their area on standardized testing. Because these schools are not supported by property taxes, they often lack the supplies they need to help their students succeed. The students drawn to them are often students who need the best, brightest, and most experienced teachers to help them. They often face real world problems that are larger than other students. The teachers interested in working at charter schools often are underpaid and young. It's not a recipe for success. That said, I have worked with a charter school that yields great results for its students. Because of its location, many of its students do not face the problems that are typical in many charter schools. I'm not opposed to charter schools that are doing well. I'm opposed to the idea that charter schools are going to solve the problems facing our children today.
QuoteWhy do so many public school teachers say venomously hateful things about home schoolers and support policies that undermine them?
I must confess that I used to be pretty venomous about home schooling. I have moderated my position on this a bit as I have had conversations with the parents of homeschoolers. There are home school cooperatives that can be very effective. The more I have learned about them, the more I can see that for some families, this might be the best option. If you have one parent who is able to stay home and work collaboratively with others to help educate their children, amazing things can happen. I do have some concerns about them.
I am concerned about the accountability of home school programs. It is easier to avoid the testing that is common in our society. Sometimes this makes it difficult to compare schools to what is going on in a home school.
I believe that there are often holes left in a child's education, especially if the home school family is of limited means. Quality instruction in music, for example, can get very expensive. I would be concerned if some really crucial experiences were left out of a child's education. Even as a trained teacher, I wouldn't be qualified to teach my child everything or to know everything that might benefit them.
I also worry about a small minority of home schooled children. Sometimes, parents home school their children to avoid acknowledging their child has a learning disability. Sometimes, parents realize their child has a learning disability very late after significant damage has been done. There is even that incredibly small minority of parents who keep their children out of schools to hide abuse or neglect.
QuoteWhy do so many liberals have the same rhetoric and policies about non-union workers as they do about home schoolers?
I haven't heard rhetoric from liberals that compares non-union workers to home schoolers. Mostly, when I hear discussion about non-union workers among liberals, it is in reference to low income workers who put in crazy hours at several jobs and cannot afford to feed their family. There is a sense of sadness about that and a desire to try to find a way to help them.

Quiller
Quotein Michigan, teacher strikes are illegal. We know the enemy. It is unionized.
That's interesting. Looking at three separate sources that compared state education systems, Michigan always ranked more than 20 states below the state I'm teaching in. All the states ranked higher than mine have strong teacher's unions. See below for source material.
http://www.edweek.org/media/quality-counts-2017-news-release.pdf
https://www.usnews.com/news/best-states/rankings/education
https://wallethub.com/edu/states-with-the-best-schools/5335/
https://edexcellence.net/publications/how-strong-are-us-teacher-unions.html

supasalesmgr
QuoteI took my kids out of public schools because I found them unresponsive to parental concerns.
I'm sorry that they were unresponsive. Would you be willing to tell me what concerns you had that made you decide to leave?
QuoteJust ask yourself the question as why parents would pay for schooling when publicly funded schools are readily available. It doesn't make sense does it? If public schools were good there is no way anything but very elite private schools would exist.
Actually, I can think of a few reasons. First, some parents put their kids in private schools because they want their children to have their education tied in with their Faith. They are willing to sacrifice some quality in their school to allow for their Faith to be a part of their child's school day. I can respect that choice even if it is different than mine. Second, there's marketing. Public schools aren't always good at telling the public what they do well, but other organizations put a lot of time and money into finding our faults (by the way, I actually think that this can be a good thing for everyone). My district is very good at getting the message out to the community about the amazing things we're doing, but lots do not see the value of this. We have had hundreds of families decide to leave the elite private schools in the area to put their kids into our capable hands. Finally, some people want a really hands on approach or a totally different model for their kids' education than is offered at a typical public school. These are the home school people or those who are looking for a Montessori or Waldorf program and can't find one in their school district.

Hoofer
QuoteHow is it... a Professional, some with a Master's Degree, cannot figure out how to teach the basics, but, an average housewife can do what the Professional cannot?  Without those expensive facilities, just books and a kitchen table, severely limited income (and paying the Professional's salary via taxation) - their students still do much better?

Hoofer, it sounds like you are speaking from personal experience. I'd love to hear your story. If you are making an analogy, I can respond with my thoughts, but I want to make sure I fully understand your point before responding.

je_freedom

QuoteIf you really want to improve education, you will want to read the following:

http://conservativepoliticalforum.com/political-discussion-and-debate/leftists-rabidly-oppose-education/

http://conservativepoliticalforum.com/library/get-all-you-can-from-school/

je_freedom, I did read those two links you posted. Here are my thoughts. I don't know if I would have taken the union's approach on this issue. I think a class in critical thinking is a fabulous idea. One of the best classes that I ever took in high school was a course that did just what you said you valued: exposed students to ideas and let them make up their mind. If I were a tax payer, teacher, or union president in the school district, I would have gotten behind the course. However, I would have wanted the elimination of the creationism/evolution discussion. All the rest are huge discussions in modern society. While this particular discussion is a huge issue in conservative Christian circles, it doesn't have much traction in society outside that community. It's much like there isn't any serious discussion in America about a single payer health care program outside of left wing America. For the record, I believe in God. I also think that the scientific evidence supports evolution. I can't see why an awesomely intelligent and benevolent God couldn't create the universe as a dynamic, changing place. There's no reason why The Watch Maker can't make a watch that can become an iPad.
:smile:I have to say I loved the second article a lot. There are lots of things we don't understand about each other's views and backgrounds, and I think that your opinion of what is taught in public schools does not necessarily reflect reality.
For example, wait until you hear about what happens in our elementary schools. Math, science, mechanics, and electronics, for example. Despite what you assert, many teachers love these subjects and are very qualified to teach them. Students in elementary school build and test rocket designs and build solar cars to race. They are graded on these projects. I've also seen our students learn about local wildlife by going on field trips to parks, dissect squids, and build computers (the last project was one for second graders). Oh, and our math, which you say is taught in confusing ways isn't terribly confusing. Our fifth graders out-perform the average 11th grader on national standardized tests.
Computer science and computer programming are also very important. I just saw an email a few days ago that detailed computer science and coding requirements for kindergarten through fifth grade. That's right, we require kindergarteners to learn the basics of coding.
Geography and history are very important. Fourth graders are required to memorize all 50 states and capitals, study foreign countries and present on them to their classmates, and look in depth at the different regions of the nation. Third graders participate in an Ellis Island simulation to learn about how people came to this country in the past.
You mentioned foreign languages. We have fully developed Chinese and Spanish immersion programs in our schools. Students enrolled in these programs are easily able to navigate in Spanish speaking countries or China by a very young age, some by the end of first grade. Students enrolling in the English side also have access to extracurricular classes to learn the languages, although at a much less in depth level.
We have fabulous arts programs, too. We have a flourishing band, choir, and orchestra program in our school system. These are curricular ensembles that meet during the school day. The classroom music program that serves as a precursor teaches about music from all over the world, promotes literacy skills, and demands intense cooperation from everyone. Students have an opportunity to participate in a fully mounted musical starting in fourth grade, and often do class plays at much younger ages.  I could go on, but I think I've made my point that there may be more learning going on in public education than you think.
Billy's Bayonet
QuoteSo you want an honest and straightforward opinion and a spirited discussion but you don't want any of the "color" that goes a long with it....sounds like to don't like the brutality of fact, but here goes:

...In short CLEANUP YOUR ACT. When the Unions purge themselves of the extreme leftists, the racketeers, the greedy dishonest lawyers who defend the slimiest of clients and once again become what they were meant to be then MAINSTREAM AMERICA might change their opinion.

Billy, I appreciate your post. You outlined some problems with unions and were very direct. You might think I would be offended, but you very carefully pointed out that there are undesirable elements in many unions. You didn't assume that all union members are evil, selfish people or that we are all criminals. My local union negotiates salaries, benefits, and working conditions so that I can spend my time focused on teaching kids with minimal energy spent on figuring out how I will negotiate a fair wage for my work. They are also a resource for me when I'm trying to figure out respectful ways to deal with problems with administration and other teachers.
As far as I am aware, no one has any organized crime connections in my local. I have no reason to think that anyone at the state level does, either. I never felt intimidated by my fellow union members to do something I don't want to do, nor have I ever been asked to do something illegal. Mostly, the people at the state level inform me of what is going on in the legislature and who to call to support public education.
You also mentioned that union members defend bad teachers. This is one area where, if I were towing the union line, I would say, "bad teachers are a myth" or some crap like that. I think this is a mistake on the part of the union. We should admit what is painfully obvious to the world. There are bad teachers. This is especially true of the incredibly small minority of teachers who abuse their students. Do unions defend them? Well... I guess so. In the same way that the army makes sure that foreign countries don't bomb pedophiles into the Stone Age. They get the protection that all teachers under the contract get. However, part of a good contract for everyone (students, teachers, administrators, community members) are clear rules about what is grounds for dismissal and disciplinary action. These rules include a way to quickly get rid of people who harm children. I can tell you with certainty that if someone in our union pushed for guaranteed jobs for life or immunity from being fired, it would never gain any traction. We want these perverts and disgraces to our good name out, too. We simply make sure that protocol is observed as their asses are kicked out the door and into a squad car. We don't do that because we like them, we do that because there are other, much murkier areas of what constitutes a bad teacher that make having a procedure worthwhile.
I know this post is lengthy. Thanks for anyone who read all of it. Please let me know what I didn't respond to, or if you have other questions for me. I will do my best to post something tomorrow.

Oh, one more thing

Walkstall
QuoteUs much older people must remember teaches don't work on weekends, unless it under the table.
I have never been forbidden from working weekends. I actually have a key to the school I work in and frequently have worked weekends or locked up after the custodians leave at night. Many teachers do the same thing.

walkstall

You will find if you answer each post separately and address their post only, thing will work for every on the board.  So learn to use the  quote function when replaying.  That way we know who you're posting too.   That way we do not have to keep going back and see what some one said.  It will save you time and each one of us. 

A politician thinks of the next election. A statesman, of the next generation.- James Freeman Clarke

Always remember "Feelings Aren't Facts."

supsalemgr

Quote from: Proud teacher on June 11, 2017, 09:38:08 PM
Hello, everyone. I'm sorry to disappoint those of you who thought I was chased off by your arguments, but I'm still here. :smile:
Many of you also wondered why it took me two hours to compose my first post and why I haven't immediately gotten back to you. The simple fact is, in addition to being a proud teacher and union member, I'm also the proud father of two children: a three year old and a nine month old. I thought I could write my first post in a few moments, but was called away to put my kids to bed. After doing that and some household chores, I came back to write. By the time I had posted, two hours had past.
Today, my wife had to work and I was single parenting all day. My children's nap schedule did not afford me time to respond to you. So, I had to wait until now when I had a moment to read and give a thoughtful response to what you wrote. I will probably not be able to respond to everything in one post, as you all had a lot to say, but I will do my best to address the salient points that you made. If you felt I ignored your point, please bring it up again and I will try to respond.
First, to this from HooferYou are absolutely right. I set rules for myself. I said I would ignore any posts where people take conversation to a level that is about personal insults, not about discussion of ideas. You are fully within your rights to call me names. It's your forum. I have been very appreciative that while many of you had some harsh criticism of public schools, teachers, and unions, you have been respectful. I will extend the same courtesy to you.

Walkstall
I am sorry that is what happened to you. It was a long time ago. In my experience as a teacher, students who struggle in school are offered all sorts of help. They get free tutoring in school in areas where they struggle by professionals who care about them and specialize in their particular struggles. Teachers work together with parents and community stakeholders to find ways to insure that child's needs are met and that they learn. Because people are imperfect, and institutions are imperfect, this does not happen effectively everywhere, but we have learned a lot more about how to help kids who struggle today.

HooferFair question. I guess that my main concern has to do with the promises made by charter schools that aren't being delivered. In my state, almost all charter schools perform worse than the local public schools in their area on standardized testing. Because these schools are not supported by property taxes, they often lack the supplies they need to help their students succeed. The students drawn to them are often students who need the best, brightest, and most experienced teachers to help them. They often face real world problems that are larger than other students. The teachers interested in working at charter schools often are underpaid and young. It's not a recipe for success. That said, I have worked with a charter school that yields great results for its students. Because of its location, many of its students do not face the problems that are typical in many charter schools. I'm not opposed to charter schools that are doing well. I'm opposed to the idea that charter schools are going to solve the problems facing our children today. I must confess that I used to be pretty venomous about home schooling. I have moderated my position on this a bit as I have had conversations with the parents of homeschoolers. There are home school cooperatives that can be very effective. The more I have learned about them, the more I can see that for some families, this might be the best option. If you have one parent who is able to stay home and work collaboratively with others to help educate their children, amazing things can happen. I do have some concerns about them.
I am concerned about the accountability of home school programs. It is easier to avoid the testing that is common in our society. Sometimes this makes it difficult to compare schools to what is going on in a home school.
I believe that there are often holes left in a child's education, especially if the home school family is of limited means. Quality instruction in music, for example, can get very expensive. I would be concerned if some really crucial experiences were left out of a child's education. Even as a trained teacher, I wouldn't be qualified to teach my child everything or to know everything that might benefit them.
I also worry about a small minority of home schooled children. Sometimes, parents home school their children to avoid acknowledging their child has a learning disability. Sometimes, parents realize their child has a learning disability very late after significant damage has been done. There is even that incredibly small minority of parents who keep their children out of schools to hide abuse or neglect.I haven't heard rhetoric from liberals that compares non-union workers to home schoolers. Mostly, when I hear discussion about non-union workers among liberals, it is in reference to low income workers who put in crazy hours at several jobs and cannot afford to feed their family. There is a sense of sadness about that and a desire to try to find a way to help them.

QuillerThat's interesting. Looking at three separate sources that compared state education systems, Michigan always ranked more than 20 states below the state I'm teaching in. All the states ranked higher than mine have strong teacher's unions. See below for source material.
http://www.edweek.org/media/quality-counts-2017-news-release.pdf
https://www.usnews.com/news/best-states/rankings/education
https://wallethub.com/edu/states-with-the-best-schools/5335/
https://edexcellence.net/publications/how-strong-are-us-teacher-unions.html

supasalesmgrI'm sorry that they were unresponsive. Would you be willing to tell me what concerns you had that made you decide to leave?Actually, I can think of a few reasons. First, some parents put their kids in private schools because they want their children to have their education tied in with their Faith. They are willing to sacrifice some quality in their school to allow for their Faith to be a part of their child's school day. I can respect that choice even if it is different than mine. Second, there's marketing. Public schools aren't always good at telling the public what they do well, but other organizations put a lot of time and money into finding our faults (by the way, I actually think that this can be a good thing for everyone). My district is very good at getting the message out to the community about the amazing things we're doing, but lots do not see the value of this. We have had hundreds of families decide to leave the elite private schools in the area to put their kids into our capable hands. Finally, some people want a really hands on approach or a totally different model for their kids' education than is offered at a typical public school. These are the home school people or those who are looking for a Montessori or Waldorf program and can't find one in their school district.

Hoofer
Hoofer, it sounds like you are speaking from personal experience. I'd love to hear your story. If you are making an analogy, I can respond with my thoughts, but I want to make sure I fully understand your point before responding.

je_freedom

je_freedom, I did read those two links you posted. Here are my thoughts. I don't know if I would have taken the union's approach on this issue. I think a class in critical thinking is a fabulous idea. One of the best classes that I ever took in high school was a course that did just what you said you valued: exposed students to ideas and let them make up their mind. If I were a tax payer, teacher, or union president in the school district, I would have gotten behind the course. However, I would have wanted the elimination of the creationism/evolution discussion. All the rest are huge discussions in modern society. While this particular discussion is a huge issue in conservative Christian circles, it doesn't have much traction in society outside that community. It's much like there isn't any serious discussion in America about a single payer health care program outside of left wing America. For the record, I believe in God. I also think that the scientific evidence supports evolution. I can't see why an awesomely intelligent and benevolent God couldn't create the universe as a dynamic, changing place. There's no reason why The Watch Maker can't make a watch that can become an iPad.
:smile:I have to say I loved the second article a lot. There are lots of things we don't understand about each other's views and backgrounds, and I think that your opinion of what is taught in public schools does not necessarily reflect reality.
For example, wait until you hear about what happens in our elementary schools. Math, science, mechanics, and electronics, for example. Despite what you assert, many teachers love these subjects and are very qualified to teach them. Students in elementary school build and test rocket designs and build solar cars to race. They are graded on these projects. I've also seen our students learn about local wildlife by going on field trips to parks, dissect squids, and build computers (the last project was one for second graders). Oh, and our math, which you say is taught in confusing ways isn't terribly confusing. Our fifth graders out-perform the average 11th grader on national standardized tests.
Computer science and computer programming are also very important. I just saw an email a few days ago that detailed computer science and coding requirements for kindergarten through fifth grade. That's right, we require kindergarteners to learn the basics of coding.
Geography and history are very important. Fourth graders are required to memorize all 50 states and capitals, study foreign countries and present on them to their classmates, and look in depth at the different regions of the nation. Third graders participate in an Ellis Island simulation to learn about how people came to this country in the past.
You mentioned foreign languages. We have fully developed Chinese and Spanish immersion programs in our schools. Students enrolled in these programs are easily able to navigate in Spanish speaking countries or China by a very young age, some by the end of first grade. Students enrolling in the English side also have access to extracurricular classes to learn the languages, although at a much less in depth level.
We have fabulous arts programs, too. We have a flourishing band, choir, and orchestra program in our school system. These are curricular ensembles that meet during the school day. The classroom music program that serves as a precursor teaches about music from all over the world, promotes literacy skills, and demands intense cooperation from everyone. Students have an opportunity to participate in a fully mounted musical starting in fourth grade, and often do class plays at much younger ages.  I could go on, but I think I've made my point that there may be more learning going on in public education than you think.
Billy's Bayonet
Billy, I appreciate your post. You outlined some problems with unions and were very direct. You might think I would be offended, but you very carefully pointed out that there are undesirable elements in many unions. You didn't assume that all union members are evil, selfish people or that we are all criminals. My local union negotiates salaries, benefits, and working conditions so that I can spend my time focused on teaching kids with minimal energy spent on figuring out how I will negotiate a fair wage for my work. They are also a resource for me when I'm trying to figure out respectful ways to deal with problems with administration and other teachers.
As far as I am aware, no one has any organized crime connections in my local. I have no reason to think that anyone at the state level does, either. I never felt intimidated by my fellow union members to do something I don't want to do, nor have I ever been asked to do something illegal. Mostly, the people at the state level inform me of what is going on in the legislature and who to call to support public education.
You also mentioned that union members defend bad teachers. This is one area where, if I were towing the union line, I would say, "bad teachers are a myth" or some crap like that. I think this is a mistake on the part of the union. We should admit what is painfully obvious to the world. There are bad teachers. This is especially true of the incredibly small minority of teachers who abuse their students. Do unions defend them? Well... I guess so. In the same way that the army makes sure that foreign countries don't bomb pedophiles into the Stone Age. They get the protection that all teachers under the contract get. However, part of a good contract for everyone (students, teachers, administrators, community members) are clear rules about what is grounds for dismissal and disciplinary action. These rules include a way to quickly get rid of people who harm children. I can tell you with certainty that if someone in our union pushed for guaranteed jobs for life or immunity from being fired, it would never gain any traction. We want these perverts and disgraces to our good name out, too. We simply make sure that protocol is observed as their asses are kicked out the door and into a squad car. We don't do that because we like them, we do that because there are other, much murkier areas of what constitutes a bad teacher that make having a procedure worthwhile.
I know this post is lengthy. Thanks for anyone who read all of it. Please let me know what I didn't respond to, or if you have other questions for me. I will do my best to post something tomorrow.

Oh, one more thing

WalkstallI have never been forbidden from working weekends. I actually have a key to the school I work in and frequently have worked weekends or locked up after the custodians leave at night. Many teachers do the same thing.

"I'm sorry that they were unresponsive. Would you be willing to tell me what concerns you had that made you decide to leave?"

It became clear to us the school administrators were much more concerned with a PC message and indoctrination than concern for individual students and parental concerns. It was not necessarily the teachers, but they had little control. A big part of this began when Jimmy Carter created the Department of Education. I do not believe bureaucrats in Washington know what is best for students in any locality. With private schools the administrators are responsible to parents who pay the freight. The school my son graduated from was not a religion backed school. It had very high standards and 100% of my son's graduating class went onto college. My son barely got out with a C average, yet he was accepted by a large out of state university. I was curious about how this could happen. I asked the counselor  on the orientation trip and she said, " We are very familiar with ------- ---- and inflate GPA's of students that come from there. Now that is a quality education.
"If you can't run with the big dawgs, stay on the porch!"

topside

Quote from: Proud teacher on June 11, 2017, 09:38:08 PM
Hello, everyone. I'm sorry to disappoint those of you who thought I was chased off by your arguments, but I'm still here. :smile:
Many of you also wondered why it took me two hours to compose my first post and why I haven't immediately gotten back to you. The simple fact is, in addition to being a proud teacher and union member, I'm also the proud father of two children: a three year old and a nine month old. I thought I could write my first post in a few moments, but was called away to put my kids to bed. After doing that and some household chores, I came back to write. By the time I had posted, two hours had past.
Today, my wife had to work and I was single parenting all day. My children's nap schedule did not afford me time to respond to you. So, I had to wait until now when I had a moment to read and give a thoughtful response to what you wrote. I will probably not be able to respond to everything in one post, as you all had a lot to say, but I will do my best to address the salient points that you made.

There are some that drop a comment and then don't come back. So I did chide you a bit ... but glad you stayed. We all have lives besides writing on this forum ... I think. I'm fairly new and would say that you'll find this group very honest and a bit rough sometimes. My advice is to stick through discussions if you find them harsh because some here have deep backgrounds and it's worth the time to mine through some of the harsh surface comments. Soft responses to harsh words sometimes return replies with thoughtful ingredients.

Regarding my experience with education: I grew up in the public schools in St. Louis in the 70's. It was a battle ground; black and white. There were days when helicopters flew in to calm the tensions. We paid to put our three girls through private school and did home school (really cooperative) because we wanted them to get both a spiritual education and the basics. When adults try to keep God and his principles out of the school, what do you expect to happen in the school? We also went private to diminish the rate at which adult topics enter their lives. Of course, we paid our taxes and I did some work in trying to motivate math in the local high school (my background is math / engineering) - that teacher I helped didn't have a chance to teach much just due to the mass chaos of getting about 35 kids in and out of classes five times a day. I could go on, but public schools are broken in so many ways. There are some great teachers and I appreciate and respect them. But there are many that hate the kids and their jobs ... need to be put out. That's another problem with the unions.

I'm not offering general comments at this point. I think this group has given you enough to respond to for now.

Billy's bayonet

Billy, I appreciate your post. You outlined some problems with unions and were very direct. You might think I would be offended, but you very carefully pointed out that there are undesirable elements in many unions. You didn't assume that all union members are evil, selfish people or that we are all criminals.
As far as I am aware, no one has any organized crime connections in my local. I have no reason to think that anyone at the state level does, either. I never felt intimidated by my fellow union members to do something I don't want to do, nor have I ever been asked to do something illegal. Mostly, the people at the state level inform me of what is going on in the legislature and who to call to support public education.
You also mentioned that union members defend bad teachers. This is one area where, if I were towing the union line, I would say, "bad teachers are a myth" or some crap like that. I think this is a mistake on the part of the union. We should admit what is painfully obvious to the world. There are bad teachers. This is especially true of the incredibly small minority of teachers who abuse their students. Do unions defend them? Well... I guess so. In the same
kicked out the door and into a squad car. We don't do that because we like them, we do that because there are other, much murkier areas of what constitutes a bad teacher that make having a procedure worthwhile.way that the army makes sure that foreign countries don't bomb pedophiles into the Stone Age. They get the protection that all teachers under the contract get. However, part of a good contract for everyone (students, teachers, administrators, community members) are clear rules about what is grounds for dismissal and disciplinary action. These rules include a way to quickly get rid of people who harm children. I can tell you with certainty that if someone in our union pushed for guaranteed jobs for life or immunity from being fired, it would never gain any traction. We want these perverts and disgraces to our good name out, too. We simply make sure that protocol is observed as their asses are

Good response, you left a few things out that I wished a response to which I'll touch on later, I'll even admit that I may have learned a thing or two about modern teaching such as the focus on science and technology in the formative years. But what does impress me somewhat is your response about Unions supporting bad Teachers, this is almost word for word the same Lament I and former colleagues had about Unions supporting bad cops I had to deal with.

While I am glad that schools are focusing on the high tech science and fifth graders can learn computing code, it still does not address the decided leftist slant to teaching we see permeating our education system. This is the biggest problem a lot of Parents (and Grand Parents) have about public schools and just my opinion again why the rise in home schooling and charter schools. While Faith is a factor it is not a major factor at least in my Grandchildren's case. The whole leftist indoctrination/agenda is. And as I said, Unions are notoriously leftist.

The second problem which to me is a major problem is the drugging of our children who have "learning disabilities", I am very much against drugging of our youth in any way shape or form.

I also have a question for you, do you know of or do you have any teachers who are openly conservative, push for a conservative curriculum or oppose some school policies such as transgender bathrooms etc?  How much flak do such persons get....or are most conservative teachers...."in the closet"?

Thanks
Evil operates best when under a disguise

WHEN A CRIME GOES UNPUNISHED THE WORLD IS UNBALANCED

WHEN A WRONG IS UNAVENGED THE HEAVENS LOOK DOWN ON US IN SHAME

IMPEACH BIDEN

quiller

Gotta love union scum defending the very reason Michigan education is the absolute pits. Why does he think the legislature outlawed teacher strikes?

quiller

Here's a pair of quotes from Albert Shanker, who was head of the American Federation of Teachers. This isn't cognitive dissonance at work here, holding such opposing views. It's the realization of whose side all unionized teachers are on, and it is never our children.




quiller

...And speaking of best interests at heart, last year in Detroit, the feds indicted a whollllllllle bunch of principals in a major kickback scheme.....

http://www.freep.com/story/news/local/michigan/detroit/2016/03/29/feds-charge-9-current-and-former-detroit-school-principals/82375712/

You bet those unions are good for teaching kids between right and wrong!

topside

Personal experience has value – but limited value due to localization. There are systemic questions that have far-reaching impacts on the whole. To summarize, below is suggested: 1) an urgent question about current experience, 2) a societal question about who has control over teaching our children, and 3) a political question as to oversight of the educational system. Some of the postings (including one of mine) are focus on personal experience which is good to exchange but less relevant with respect to the systemic questions.

Regarding the value of experience: Proud Teacher is having a generally good experience in the public school. Others, including myself, had had bad experience with public schools and good experience with private school, including home school. These localize experiences show that either experience can be good or bad. Analogy: You can live in a prison and get a good meal. You can have great parents and end up on drugs. But, in general, life sucks for people in prison and well-balanced kids had good parents.

The urgent question is whether the most likely experience for the children and parents is either system is positive or negative in some sense.

The societal question is whether the system is promoting a particular philosophy that a parent would not want to teach our children – for it is the parents God given right and responsibility to teach our children in the way they should go. It is a right that parents get to choose how their children are educated – whether it is via a public school or other option like home school.

The political question is whether the government or a union should be involved at all in the educational system. The Conservative response is that government should be limited as much as possible – not in control of many things including our educational system. That was what the Founding Fathers identified and it was genius because they understood that even those with the best intentions aren't sustained ... corruption will eventually become entangled. The government might offer an option – but it should not come with a mandate. In fact, the government should not control an option because even a good system will eventually fall into corruption. A union can offer support but it should not become a requirement for similar reasons. Ideally, we wouldn't need either the government or unions to supply good educational options for our children.

The evidence from posts that aren't just local experience suggest: 1) Urgent: The majority of students suffer at the hands of public education, 2) Societal: The government has / is trying to take the choice to teach our children out of the parents hands, 3) Political: Government and union control of schools is harmful to the interests of our children.