Conservative Political Forum

General Category => Political Discussion and Debate => Topic started by: Turks on January 30, 2013, 06:52:59 AM

Title: Senator Introduces 17% Flat Tax Bill To Reduce Tax Returns 'To The Size Of A Pos
Post by: Turks on January 30, 2013, 06:52:59 AM
Sen. Richard Shelby (R-AL) today introduced a bill to replace the tax code with a 17% flat tax that would reduce tax returns to "the size of a postcard."

Shelby's Simplified, Manageable And Responsible Tax (SMART) Act establishes a flat tax rate of 17 percent on all income (personal and business).

It also repeals estate taxes, gift taxes, and the Alternative Minimum Tax (ATM).

The only exemptions would be personal exemptions of:

$14,070 for a single person;
$17,970 for a head of household;
$28,140 for a married couple filing jointly; and
$6,070 for each dependent


http://cnsnews.com/blog/craig-bannister/senator-introduces-17-flat-tax-bill-reduce-tax-returns-size-postcard (http://cnsnews.com/blog/craig-bannister/senator-introduces-17-flat-tax-bill-reduce-tax-returns-size-postcard)
Title: Re: Senator Introduces 17% Flat Tax Bill To Reduce Tax Returns 'To The Size Of A Pos
Post by: The Stranger on January 30, 2013, 07:00:29 AM
Please don't get me wrong this sounds great and I know I have paid my fair share of income taxes over the years. Wouldn't this put a hurting on the elderly?
Title: Re: Senator Introduces 17% Flat Tax Bill To Reduce Tax Returns 'To The Size Of A Pos
Post by: kramarat on January 30, 2013, 07:08:30 AM
Quote from: The Stranger on January 30, 2013, 07:00:29 AM
Please don't get me wrong this sounds great and I know I have paid my fair share of income taxes over the years. Wouldn't this put a hurting on the elderly?

It doesn't include income on savings, and I'm guessing that SS wouldn't be considered to be income.

Of course, nothing will help if we don't shrink the amount of money that government is sucking out of the economy.
Title: Re: Senator Introduces 17% Flat Tax Bill To Reduce Tax Returns 'To The Size Of A Pos
Post by: mhughes on January 30, 2013, 07:08:50 AM
Not being able to deduct business expenses would kill most small businesses.  Heck, it would kill most big business.
Title: Re: Senator Introduces 17% Flat Tax Bill To Reduce Tax Returns 'To The Size Of A Pos
Post by: The Stranger on January 30, 2013, 07:29:08 AM
Quote from: kramarat on January 30, 2013, 07:08:30 AM


Of course, nothing will help if we don't shrink the amount of money that government is sucking out of the economy.
:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Senator Introduces 17% Flat Tax Bill To Reduce Tax Returns 'To The Size Of A Pos
Post by: kramarat on January 30, 2013, 07:30:52 AM
Quote from: mhughes on January 30, 2013, 07:08:50 AM
Not being able to deduct business expenses would kill most small businesses.  Heck, it would kill most big business.

Wouldn't the 17% only be applied to profit?
Title: Re: Senator Introduces 17% Flat Tax Bill To Reduce Tax Returns 'To The Size Of A Pos
Post by: Solar on January 30, 2013, 07:34:02 AM
Quote from: kramarat on January 30, 2013, 07:30:52 AM
Wouldn't the 17% only be applied to profit?
Exactly! Now just assume for a moment a business needs a write off, what would be a simple way to write off profit?
New hires, imagine that, instant demand for workers across the country.
Title: Re: Senator Introduces 17% Flat Tax Bill To Reduce Tax Returns 'To The Size Of A Pos
Post by: kramarat on January 30, 2013, 07:43:36 AM
Quote from: Solar on January 30, 2013, 07:34:02 AM
Exactly! Now just assume for a moment a business needs a write off, what would be a simple way to write off profit?
New hires, imagine that, instant demand for workers across the country.

Well, labor expenses are already a write off. I think something like this would just simplify the tax code. Businesses would still be required to keep stringent records, but rather than the pain in the ass of doing itemized deductions, they would just pay a flat 17% on total profit, after expenses. I'm sure they would still be subject to IRS audits, to keep them straight.
Title: Re: Senator Introduces 17% Flat Tax Bill To Reduce Tax Returns 'To The Size Of A Pos
Post by: mhughes on January 30, 2013, 07:52:40 AM
QuoteWouldn't the 17% only be applied to profit?

Right now, most businesses are taxed on income, and they get to write off all their expenses which has the net effect of profits being taxed.

The article stated there were only personal exceptions, and listed them.  I made the foolish mistake of trusting a news source.  I went and read the actual bill.  It maintains the business expense deductions.  Just a poorly written article.

Also fyi, it looks like it includes social security income.

Look at this piece too:

Quote
TITLE II—SUPERMAJORITY
15 REQUIRED FOR TAX CHANGES
16 SEC. 201. SUPERMAJORITY REQUIRED.
17 (a) IN GENERAL.—It shall not be in order in the
18 House of Representatives or the Senate to consider any
19 bill, joint resolution, amendment thereto, or conference re-
20 port thereon that includes any provision that—
21 (1) increases any Federal income tax rate,
22 (2) creates any additional Federal income tax
23 rate,
24 (3) reduces the standard deduction, or 22
OTT13023 S.L.C.
1 (4) provides any exclusion, deduction, credit, or
2 other benefit which results in a reduction in Federal
3 revenues.
4 (b) WAIVER OR SUSPENSION.—This section may be
5 waived or suspended in the House of Representatives or
6 the Senate only by the affirmative vote of three-fifths of
7 the Members, duly chosen and sworn

It sounds nice, but I don't think that would hold any legal weight.  Congress can always pass a law with a simple majority that says "nevermind" to that clause.
Title: Re: Senator Introduces 17% Flat Tax Bill To Reduce Tax Returns 'To The Size Of A Pos
Post by: mdgiles on January 30, 2013, 08:13:31 AM
What about deductions? Deductions are the personal equivalent of business expenses. Just as a business gets to write off the expenses involved in making a taxable profit; individual should be able to write off those expenses involved in making taxable income. Either that or increase the exemption so that it realistically represents the expense of day to day living.
Title: Re: Senator Introduces 17% Flat Tax Bill To Reduce Tax Returns 'To The Size Of A Pos
Post by: mhughes on January 30, 2013, 08:47:38 AM
Quote from: mdgiles on January 30, 2013, 08:13:31 AM
What about deductions? Deductions are the personal equivalent of business expenses. Just as a business gets to write off the expenses involved in making a taxable profit; individual should be able to write off those expenses involved in making taxable income. Either that or increase the exemption so that it realistically represents the expense of day to day living.

Nope, no more deductions under this plan.  The idea is a lower rate and only a standard deduction.

Taxes that screw people in new and exciting ways :)

Property prices will probably go down without the mortgage credit.
Title: Re: Senator Introduces 17% Flat Tax Bill To Reduce Tax Returns 'To The Size Of A Pos
Post by: mdgiles on January 30, 2013, 09:25:01 AM
Quote from: mhughes on January 30, 2013, 08:47:38 AM
Nope, no more deductions under this plan.  The idea is a lower rate and only a standard deduction.

Taxes that screw people in new and exciting ways :)

Property prices will probably go down without the mortgage credit.
Except, of course, that with deductions, almost no one pays the higher rate. IOW, it's really a tax hike - or weren't we supposed to notice? The lowlifes in DC have been playing that game now for quite awhile; keeping the rate the same or even slightly lowering it, while cutting deductions so everyone ends up paying more and more.
Title: Re: Senator Introduces 17% Flat Tax Bill To Reduce Tax Returns 'To The Size Of A Pos
Post by: Chief Brett on January 30, 2013, 11:16:02 AM
I paid an effective tax rate of 32% last year.  I wholeheartedly support a flat tax, 17% sounds good to me.  Screw deductions, managing tax laws, and working your returns.  Take the 17% out of my paycheck and me and the IRS will be done with it.  LETS GET THIS DONE!
Title: Re: Senator Introduces 17% Flat Tax Bill To Reduce Tax Returns 'To The Size Of A Pos
Post by: mdgiles on January 30, 2013, 11:55:51 AM
Quote from: Chief Brett on January 30, 2013, 11:16:02 AM
I paid an effective tax rate of 32% last year.  I wholeheartedly support a flat tax, 17% sounds good to me.  Screw deductions, managing tax laws, and working your returns.  Take the 17% out of my paycheck and me and the IRS will be done with it.  LETS GET THIS DONE!
You said an effective rate, so I'm assuming that was on your taxable income after you took ever deduction the law allowed. What would your taxable income have been absent any deductions. If you live in the Northeast, the big one is the deduction for state and local taxes.
Title: Re: Senator Introduces 17% Flat Tax Bill To Reduce Tax Returns 'To The Size Of A Pos
Post by: raptor5618 on January 30, 2013, 12:20:14 PM
I think that the number probably is based so that it is similar to what people are already paying but at a savings of all the effort accumulating information for deductions an preparing tax forms.  If you make twice your standard deduction your effective rate is only 8.5 percent.  So I think that essentially no one would actually pay the full 17% of their income.   

As far as businesses go,  taxes are the least effective means of collecting tax.  Check some of the economic sites and you will find info that is the basis for this statement.  What it essentially is saying is that the tax only has an impact on how competitive a business can be.  The reality is that all corporate taxes are paid by the consumer of that businesses products.  That is why politicians are so happy to toss a tax at corporations, health providers and medical device manufacturers.   It is a tax on you and me thanks to our government, yet except for those who understand accounting and finance blame the rising cost on greedy businessmen.  It is one of the easiest way to hid a tax on us all.  Oh and yes it is not progressive.   

Of course the libs will scream about how big business and executives make too much.  Well if that is true then they are free to compete with these greedy bastards and by paying themselves what they think is right and making less profits they will surely swallow the market share of the greedy corporation.  Of course the do not see it that way and prefer gnash their teeth and moan about greed and avarice.   

Follow the money and the truth comes out.
Title: Re: Senator Introduces 17% Flat Tax Bill To Reduce Tax Returns 'To The Size Of A Pos
Post by: AndyJackson on January 30, 2013, 01:42:36 PM
Absolute minimal deductions is the only way to get rid of vote-buying and social engineering, using the tax code.

All real conservatives should be for this.

Just set the % at something that will cover an appropriate budget number, and call it a day.

Stop crying about everybody's personal wants & wishes & if's & but's.
Title: Re: Senator Introduces 17% Flat Tax Bill To Reduce Tax Returns 'To The Size Of A Pos
Post by: supsalemgr on January 30, 2013, 02:12:45 PM
Part of the solution would somehow have to separate those small businessowners who file individually. The tax rate should apply to their net income not the gross. That should be a fairly simple process.
Title: Re: Senator Introduces 17% Flat Tax Bill To Reduce Tax Returns 'To The Size Of A Pos
Post by: BILLY Defiant on January 30, 2013, 04:52:06 PM
I like a flat tax...there is no real estate deduction and this would KILL the real estate industry (which I have a stake in) and our economy is somewhat based on private home ownership.

therefore.... :thumbdown:
Title: Re: Senator Introduces 17% Flat Tax Bill To Reduce Tax Returns 'To The Size Of A Pos
Post by: The Stranger on January 31, 2013, 05:22:51 AM
Quote from: BILLY Defiant on January 30, 2013, 04:52:06 PM
I like a flat tax...there is no real estate deduction and this would KILL the real estate industry (which I have a stake in) and our economy is somewhat based on private home ownership.

therefore.... :thumbdown:
I hear your concerns but, maybe if people had more of a stake in what they pay or goes on in Wash. maybe they would be more interested.
Come on DC in a joke and folks don't care. Look at Oblamers pop now at 60% and the economy is being flushed. If they had a stake in it they would care more! Maybe?
Title: Re: Senator Introduces 17% Flat Tax Bill To Reduce Tax Returns 'To The Size Of A Pos
Post by: JustKari on January 31, 2013, 08:56:23 AM
Quote from: The Stranger on January 31, 2013, 05:22:51 AM
I hear your concerns but, maybe if people had more of a stake in what they pay or goes on in Wash. maybe they would be more interested.
Come on DC in a joke and folks don't care. Look at Oblamers pop now at 60% and the economy is being flushed. If they had a stake in it they would care more! Maybe?

The problem is not the stake the uninformed have, but the steak and potatoes, bought with your tax dollars, that will keep their fingers planted in their ears screaming "I can't hear you, I'm not listening!"
Title: Re: Senator Introduces 17% Flat Tax Bill To Reduce Tax Returns 'To The Size Of A Pos
Post by: raptor5618 on January 31, 2013, 09:07:14 AM
It will change the dynamics of buying a house but after a period of everyone figuring the new system out, things will be back to the way it always was.  The possibility of writing off the interest was only a small factor in my decision to buy a house. 

If as you suggest that home buying will drop off significantly, you are then implying that more people will rent than own.  Of course this will increase the cost to rent so people will begin to buy so they can rent it or buy to avoid paying so much in rent.

It costs me less to own than to rent and since I own, I can do with the yard as I wish and if I want a dog or any pet that is up to me. So I think the real estate business might be impacted during the adjustment but after that it will be business as usual. 
Title: Re: Senator Introduces 17% Flat Tax Bill To Reduce Tax Returns 'To The Size Of A Pos
Post by: Solar on January 31, 2013, 09:12:35 AM
Quote from: raptor5618 on January 31, 2013, 09:07:14 AM
It will change the dynamics of buying a house but after a period of everyone figuring the new system out, things will be back to the way it always was.  The possibility of writing off the interest was only a small factor in my decision to buy a house. 

If as you suggest that home buying will drop off significantly, you are then implying that more people will rent than own.  Of course this will increase the cost to rent so people will begin to buy so they can rent it or buy to avoid paying so much in rent.

It costs me less to own than to rent and since I own, I can do with the yard as I wish and if I want a dog or any pet that is up to me. So I think the real estate business might be impacted during the adjustment but after that it will be business as usual.
I tend to agree, cycles are a reality of life, owning will always be the American dream and people will once again pursue that dream.
Title: Re: Senator Introduces 17% Flat Tax Bill To Reduce Tax Returns 'To The Size Of A Pos
Post by: mdgiles on January 31, 2013, 09:18:33 AM
The real effect would be on the high tax blue states and municipalities. People would feel the real effects of their spendthrift governments, as opposed to shifting much of the cost to red states and municipalities. A flat tax would put a dagger through the heart of the blue model.   :biggrin:
Title: Re: Senator Introduces 17% Flat Tax Bill To Reduce Tax Returns 'To The Size Of A Pos
Post by: raptor5618 on January 31, 2013, 09:21:47 AM
Making money is another American dream so if most people decide own a home is not the dream they want there will be more than enough people willing to own a property to rent to them.  If govt gets out of the way things will find their own equilibrium.  Granted that some will win and some will lose but I find that a much better alternative than governments flawed promise that they can make sure that no one loses.
Title: Re: Senator Introduces 17% Flat Tax Bill To Reduce Tax Returns 'To The Size Of A Pos
Post by: mdgiles on January 31, 2013, 09:41:37 AM
Quote from: raptor5618 on January 31, 2013, 09:21:47 AM
Making money is another American dream so if most people decide own a home is not the dream they want there will be more than enough people willing to own a property to rent to them.  If govt gets out of the way things will find their own equilibrium.  Granted that some will win and some will lose but I find that a much better alternative than governments flawed promise that they can make sure that no one loses.
It's not that they're making sure that no one loses, it's that government wants to claim credit whenever someone wins and blame someone else whenever they lose.
Title: Re: Senator Introduces 17% Flat Tax Bill To Reduce Tax Returns 'To The Size Of A Pos
Post by: JustKari on January 31, 2013, 10:07:49 AM
Quote from: mdgiles on January 31, 2013, 09:41:37 AM
It's not that they're making sure that no one loses, it's that government wants to claim credit whenever someone wins and blame someone else whenever they lose.

Yes, and to cherrypick who wins and loses.p
Title: Re: Senator Introduces 17% Flat Tax Bill To Reduce Tax Returns 'To The Size Of A Pos
Post by: PeterR on January 31, 2013, 10:14:47 AM
Some years ago, political cartoonist Michael Ramirez developed the simplist 1040 ever.

It consisted of one question and one instruction:

1. How much did you make last year?

2. Send it in.   
Title: Re: Senator Introduces 17% Flat Tax Bill To Reduce Tax Returns 'To The Size Of A Pos
Post by: mdgiles on January 31, 2013, 10:14:58 AM
Quote from: JustKari on January 31, 2013, 10:07:49 AM
Yes, and to cherrypick who wins and loses.p
But they never actually pick a real winner - they just make it look - for awhile - like they're winners. Look at GM or all those "green technologies". Don't believe the hype!  :tounge:
Title: Re: Senator Introduces 17% Flat Tax Bill To Reduce Tax Returns 'To The Size Of A Pos
Post by: JustKari on January 31, 2013, 10:41:48 AM
Quote from: mdgiles on January 31, 2013, 10:14:58 AM
But they never actually pick a real winner - they just make it look - for awhile - like they're winners. Look at GM or all those "green technologies". Don't believe the hype!  :tounge:

Touche, you are right.
Title: Re: Senator Introduces 17% Flat Tax Bill To Reduce Tax Returns 'To The Size Of A Pos
Post by: raptor5618 on January 31, 2013, 10:50:27 AM
Quote from: mdgiles on January 31, 2013, 10:14:58 AM
But they never actually pick a real winner - they just make it look - for awhile - like they're winners. Look at GM or all those "green technologies". Don't believe the hype!  :tounge:

I agree totally. Of course if someone should lose well now it is those evil pubs doing it with the aid of Fox and Rush. 

So relieved I am not a Pub as I just do not think I want to abuse my kids and beat my wife. I mean what kind of party pushes that kind of agenda.