Author Topic: Red Flag Laws are not a 2A infringement  (Read 2667 times)

Offline Sick Of Silence

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Re: Red Flag Laws are not a 2A infringement
« Reply #15 on: September 05, 2019, 12:21:25 PM »
The method or tool used is always irrelevant.

That's what I was getting at. If they want to kill themselves, they will do it.
Social Media are multi-national billion dollar corporations with foreign investors that are going unchecked with the power to effect our election process.

"Book burnings" have evolved into "de-plat forming". Its the same principles behind both: to eliminate accessible knowledge.

Offline Killer Clouds

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Re: Red Flag Laws are not a 2A infringement
« Reply #16 on: September 05, 2019, 12:27:39 PM »
That's what I was getting at. If they want to kill themselves, they will do it.

I agree. I agree with you before.

Online taxed

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Re: Red Flag Laws are not a 2A infringement
« Reply #17 on: September 05, 2019, 01:42:32 PM »
I agree with the thread premise and would add what is the need for weapons of mass destruction on the streets and in the homes of Americans. I have to also wonder who has the money to use a machine gun for hunting?  In case they miss the first time they get two hundred more times? 

"Fourteen-year-old boys are not part of a well-regulated militia. Members of wacky religious cults are not part of a well-regulated militia. Permitting unregulated citizens to have guns is destroying the security of this free state."  Molly Ivins

"In 1991, Warren E. Burger, the conservative chief justice of the Supreme Court, was interviewed on the MacNeil/Lehrer NewsHour about the meaning of the Second Amendment's "right to keep and bear arms." Burger answered that the Second Amendment "has been the subject of one of the greatest pieces of fraud--I repeat the word 'fraud'--on the American public by special interest groups that I have ever seen in my lifetime." In a speech in 1992, Burger declared that "the Second Amendment doesn't guarantee the right to have firearms at all. "In his view, the purpose of the Second Amendment was "to ensure that the 'state armies'--'the militia'--would be maintained for the defense of the state."

http://www.bradycampaign.org/key-gun-violence-statistics


Every day, 310 people are shot in the United States. Among those:

100 people are shot and killed
210 survive gun injuries
95 are injured in an attack
61 die from suicide
10 survive a suicide attempt
1 is killed unintentionally
90 are shot unintentionally
1 is killed by legal intervention
4 are shot by legal intervention
1 died but the intent was unknown
12 are shot but the intent was unknown

He posted idiocy that's easily destroyed and ran away.  Is he a relative of yours?
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Offline Bronx

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Re: Red Flag Laws are not a 2A infringement
« Reply #18 on: September 05, 2019, 01:59:51 PM »
He posted idiocy that's easily destroyed and ran away.  Is he a relative of yours?

 :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
People sleep peacefully at night because there are a few tough men prepared to do violence on their behalf.

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Offline HuntingVorel

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Re: Red Flag Laws are not a 2A infringement
« Reply #19 on: September 05, 2019, 02:06:40 PM »
You are insane.  Of course its a Second Amendment infringement.
Forgive my clickbait title, perhaps I should have worded it as "a good idea" instead.  My main argument is that Red flag Laws act like a second background check that can be applied should someone's behavior change.  Can you explain how red flag Laws differ from background checks in principle?
"A man who has nothing to die for, is not fit to live" -Martin Luther King Jr.

Offline HuntingVorel

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Re: Red Flag Laws are not a 2A infringement
« Reply #20 on: September 05, 2019, 02:07:51 PM »
This guy is obviously dangerous. We should take his guns and knives and bats and rocks. We should take his car and motorcycle if he has one. We should take away his family and friends for their protection. Maybe we should just lock him up because he  MIGHT  commit  a crime. Yes red flag laws are unconstitutional. All gun control is an infringement by definition therefore unconstitutional.
Like I said, the due process part makes many of these concerns unfounded.  Making a frivolous claim could land you on trial for perjury.
"A man who has nothing to die for, is not fit to live" -Martin Luther King Jr.

Offline HuntingVorel

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Re: Red Flag Laws are not a 2A infringement
« Reply #21 on: September 05, 2019, 02:10:05 PM »
Red flag laws are a ruse by the left to confiscate guns. Just who would the arbiter be to determine if someone's guns should be taken away?
While this may be true, I still agree with the principle of the idea.  Just because we don't share the same goal doesn't mean we can't support the same policy.  Ideally a judge would be the one to decide, since they cannot be politically biased.
"A man who has nothing to die for, is not fit to live" -Martin Luther King Jr.

Offline HuntingVorel

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Re: Red Flag Laws are not a 2A infringement
« Reply #22 on: September 05, 2019, 02:16:04 PM »
Every law regarding guns is an infringement on the 2nd. Read it for yourself, "Shall not be infringed".
The better answer to the question of someone having arms is easily answered. If the law didn't impede on everyone's Right to bear Arms, then no one would have to worry about one rogue idiot because we could easily remove him from the gene pool.
This is what the Founders envisioned in a polite Society, and they were Right. What the Marxists want to do is whittle down the 2nd to the point owning a gun is damned near impossible and costly.

The Right way of thinking is to go back and undo ALL Fuckin Gun Laws and let society work out its problems like it used to.

I appreciate your POV, I really do, but you are approaching this from an emotional position. Just understand the Bill of Rights more clearly, it answers all the questions.
In hindsight it was kinda dumb to say that it's not an infringement.  It's obviously an infringement, just like background checks and near-bans on automatic firearms.  However, I would say that the majority of Americans (conservatives included) have little issue with these regulations.  I simply fail to see how red flag Laws differ in principle from a background check.
"A man who has nothing to die for, is not fit to live" -Martin Luther King Jr.

Online Solar

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Re: Red Flag Laws are not a 2A infringement
« Reply #23 on: September 05, 2019, 02:23:45 PM »
In hindsight it was kinda dumb to say that it's not an infringement.  It's obviously an infringement, just like background checks and near-bans on automatic firearms.  However, I would say that the majority of Americans (conservatives included) have little issue with these regulations.  I simply fail to see how red flag Laws differ in principle from a background check.

Real Conservatives have an issue with ALL gun laws, which was my point about "Shall Not Infringe".
Point is, the Fed has absolutely no business in the matter, particularly SCOTUS and Congress, while States are another issue.
The Bill of Rights was an impediment to the Federal Govt, a restriction against them. That's why it was a stand alone document, without it, there would never have been a Republic in the first place.
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Online Solar

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Re: Red Flag Laws are not a 2A infringement
« Reply #24 on: September 05, 2019, 02:25:42 PM »
In hindsight it was kinda dumb to say that it's not an infringement.  It's obviously an infringement, just like background checks and near-bans on automatic firearms.  However, I would say that the majority of Americans (conservatives included) have little issue with these regulations.  I simply fail to see how red flag Laws differ in principle from a background check.
By the way, welcome to the forum. :cool:
#WWG1WGA

Offline s3779m

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Re: Red Flag Laws are not a 2A infringement
« Reply #25 on: September 05, 2019, 02:29:26 PM »
In hindsight it was kinda dumb to say that it's not an infringement.  It's obviously an infringement, just like background checks and near-bans on automatic firearms.  However, I would say that the majority of Americans (conservatives included) have little issue with these regulations.  I simply fail to see how red flag Laws differ in principle from a background check.
A background check is looking for"A prohibited person is one who:

    Has been convicted in any court of a crime punishable by imprisonment for a term exceeding one year;
    Is under indictment for a crime punishable by imprisonment for a term exceeding one year;
    Is a fugitive from justice;
    Is an unlawful user of or addicted to any controlled substance;
    Has been adjudicated as a mental defective or committed to a mental institution;
    Is illegally or unlawfully in the United States;
    Has been discharged from the Armed Forces under dishonorable conditions;
    Having been a citizen of the United States, has renounced U.S. citizenship;
    Is subject to a court order that restrains the person from harassing, stalking, or threatening an intimate partner or child of such intimate partner;
    Has been convicted in any court of a "misdemeanor crime of domestic violence", a defined term in 18 U.S.C. 921(a)(33)[21]"

  a red flag is just someone's damn opinion which by itself would not justify a search warrant so in essence if violates the 2nd and 4th. If what someone posts on social media is concerning enough, get a damn search warrant, convince a judge that what is a red flag is serious enough to take away that person's rights. And no, I do not know of any conservatives in favor of increasing back ground checks or red flag laws. 

Offline Billy's bayonet

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Re: Red Flag Laws are not a 2A infringement
« Reply #26 on: September 05, 2019, 02:36:32 PM »
Up until a week ago I was under the impression that red flag Laws had relatively bipartisan support, only to find that politicians like Dan Crenshaw are coming under fire for supporting red flag laws, even under the promise that due process is maintained. 


How, Pray Tell, is "Due Process" Maintained? 

This is my Main objection to "red flag laws", they are subjective and in my opinion PRETEXTUAL in nature.  This is a way for the left to attack the 2d amedt and skirt the Constitution.  And I speak from the viewpoint of one who served in Law enforcement for 25+ years ad Private security for another 15. I got many a "restraining order" as a private body guard and took lots and lots of guns out of the hands of criminals who shouldn't have had them as a sworn LEO.

In each of those scenarios I had to have Probable cause for an arrest or was willing to swear out an affidavit outlining PROBABLE CAUSE before a JUDGE or MAGISTRATE why I thought the person might be armed/dangerous or have access to an illegal firearm. Then I needed a search warrant... There were a few times when the Judge/magistrate didn't agree with me.

Before you throw your support behind any "Red Flag" law I suggest you read the diagnostics and proceedural steps that must be taken.

If the LEOs can just come and confiscate firearms or other weapons on the say so of 3rd party HEARSAY, unsupported by that complainant/witness sworn affidavit before a Judge/Magistrate, outlining the PROBABLE CAUSE that the persons is dangerous or had made specific threats or is about to use said weapon in the commission of a crime  then right off the bat that law is UNCONSTITUTIONAL and a violation of the persons right to due process.

And in cases where such the aforemetion legal requiremets exist the Police need a WARRANT to look for SPECIFIC Weapons as described in the warrant, no fishing expiditions, no taking guns belonging to my son or my brother if they aren't part of that which I'm alleged to have done

READ YOUR 4th Amedt which deals with search and seizure and the volumes and volumes of case law dealing with the seizure of citizens property by LEO & you'll understand where Im coming from

Last but not least what is the proceedure for a citizens REDRESS for having their property returned or refuting the "red flag"....I better have a hearing and face my accussers in a court of law before a Judge or perhaps a jury if I so choose as entitled to by the Constitution, and if you are going to keep my weapons then you better charge me with a crime or have a Forensic Psychiatrist testify why Im a danger to myself and others.

This is the slipperyest of slopes


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Offline The Boo Man...

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Re: Red Flag Laws are not a 2A infringement
« Reply #27 on: September 05, 2019, 03:07:20 PM »
The main problem with these ref flag laws is they are going to be like thought crimes. Some person in power will decide what a person was thinking when he posted something on Facebook


Offline Billy's bayonet

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Re: Red Flag Laws are not a 2A infringement
« Reply #28 on: September 05, 2019, 03:18:06 PM »
I agree with the thread premise and would add what is the need for weapons of mass destruction on the streets and in the homes of Americans. I have to also wonder who has the money to use a machine gun for hunting?  In case they miss the first time they get two hundred more times? 

"Fourteen-year-old boys are not part of a well-regulated militia. Members of wacky religious cults are not part of a well-regulated militia. Permitting unregulated citizens to have guns is destroying the security of this free state."  Molly Ivins

"In 1991, Warren E. Burger, the conservative chief justice of the Supreme Court, was interviewed on the MacNeil/Lehrer NewsHour about the meaning of the Second Amendment's "right to keep and bear arms." Burger answered that the Second Amendment "has been the subject of one of the greatest pieces of fraud--I repeat the word 'fraud'--on the American public by special interest groups that I have ever seen in my lifetime." In a speech in 1992, Burger declared that "the Second Amendment doesn't guarantee the right to have firearms at all. "In his view, the purpose of the Second Amendment was "to ensure that the 'state armies'--'the militia'--would be maintained for the defense of the state."

http://www.bradycampaign.org/key-gun-violence-statistics


Every day, 310 people are shot in the United States. Among those:

100 people are shot and killed
210 survive gun injuries
95 are injured in an attack
61 die from suicide
10 survive a suicide attempt
1 is killed unintentionally
90 are shot unintentionally
1 is killed by legal intervention
4 are shot by legal intervention
1 died but the intent was unknown
12 are shot but the intent was unknown

I find it somewhat odd that leftists who are so ANTI POLICE, so ANTI LAW AND ORDER , so PRO CRIMINAL But Now they want the cops to run around and start seizing weapons on some largely unsupported hearsay.

Usually the left screams the loudest when the Cops institute STOP AND FRISK to reduce shootings and other street crimes in inner city areas which I suspect comprise the bulk of the above stats.

The left is always screaming about "unarmed black man" shot by police.
The left is always screaming about disarming the police.
The left is always screaming about the cops having "military style weapons and gear" which of course they say the cops don't need.
The left screams the loudest when the cops crack down on street crime because it is racist and targets black men
The left screams the loudest when the cops cooperate with ICE and get dangerous armed sociopaths  Illegal alien crime gangs like MS-13 off the streets because they are racist xenophobes dontchaknow

SO now all of a sudden the left are champions of Law Enforcement ad want cops to get "guns off the streets"....is that it midcam? Are you A champion of law and order? Really?

BS! I think you and your leftist stooge pals just want the cops to go after White people who have done nothing wrong and disarm them so they can't fight back.

You people must be terrified and desperate

Evil operates best when under a disguise

TRUST THE PLAN

Offline Killer Clouds

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Re: Red Flag Laws are not a 2A infringement
« Reply #29 on: September 05, 2019, 04:21:50 PM »
The 2nd amendment is no longer a right and hasn't been since the first gun control law was enacted. It is a privilege that the demonrats are trying to take away completely.

 

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