Author Topic: Why do they always put Libertarianism on the top and Conservative to the right of the center?  (Read 1182 times)

Offline Hoofer

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and another


When does my personal liberty and economic liberty end in anything but a Constitutional Conservatism?
...and the opposite of that is a Populist?
What's a Centrist then - the guy who answers surveys with, "Not sure" & "No Opinion"?
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Offline je_freedom

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NO, Libertarian is closer to anarchist, Conservatives believe in extremely limited govt, Libertarian's border on none at all, literally next to none which is the end of the list, and no, the circle is not what happens in real life, where destruction is concerned, there is no way it will be directly connected to a working society which is why anarchism is directly connected to communism, history proves this to be true.

Etc.

That's kind of what I was saying.
I would put Libertarianism next to Anarchy, next to Communism.
Under Anarchy, there is no government to restrain street gangs.
It's just one more tiny step to Communism,
where the street gangs proclaim themselves to BE the government.

There are two ways to get to Communism:
increasing government control, which gradually builds Communism,
and NO government control, where Communism pops up to fill the vacuum.

Conservatives are Libertarians who understand
how personal behavior affects the community,
and therefore understand how behavior must be restrained
by a limited government.
Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice. And moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue.
-- Barry Goldwater

Online The Boo Man...

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Conservatives are afraid of heights?
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Offline quiller

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Conservatives are afraid of heights?

No, more like ground level, whereas liberals are the ones down in the sewers, and unable to climb up and out.

Offline je_freedom

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No, more like ground level, whereas liberals are the ones down in the sewers, and unable to climb up and out.

... liberals are the ones down in the sewers, and unable unWILLING to climb up and out.

There!  Fixed it!
Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice. And moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue.
-- Barry Goldwater

Offline JasonTarmon

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Hi everyone, I'm new here, nice to meet you. Now to the topic, I have seen these things laid out in a number of ways. If you tried to describe world-view as it truly is I am afraid it would be some kind of unillustratable ten dimensional monster. Just in this thread people have illustrated:
social lib -vs- social cons.
fiscal lib -vs- fiscal cons.
globalist -vs- nationalist
totalitarianism -vs- liberty
left ideology -vs- right ideology

Sort of the classical version of these graphs as I understand it has the two dimensions being social beliefs and fiscal beliefs with
Conservatives being both fiscally and socially conservative (Ted Cruz),
Liberals both fiscally and socially liberal (Obama),
Libertarians being fiscally conservative and socially liberal (Rand Paul),
and Populists being socially conservative  and fiscally liberal(Mike Huckabee).

Fiscal Liberals believe that if you imagine it to be then it will be, and that math is not something concrete.

Fiscal Conservatives believe that math is real and that if you spend more than you make you will have a problem.

Social Liberals believe that morals are not real and are just based on societal norms, therefor if you change society you can change proper morals. They are generally for same sex marriage, abortion, etc...

Social Conservatives believe that morals are based in reality and are not fluid. Typically that they are determined by God.


The graph that was originally posted here is the one that libertarians use which re-imagines social liberalism as social liberty making libertarianism the pinnacle of liberty.

Offline supsalemgr

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Hi everyone, I'm new here, nice to meet you. Now to the topic, I have seen these things laid out in a number of ways. If you tried to describe world-view as it truly is I am afraid it would be some kind of unillustratable ten dimensional monster. Just in this thread people have illustrated:
social lib -vs- social cons.
fiscal lib -vs- fiscal cons.
globalist -vs- nationalist
totalitarianism -vs- liberty
left ideology -vs- right ideology

Sort of the classical version of these graphs as I understand it has the two dimensions being social beliefs and fiscal beliefs with
Conservatives being both fiscally and socially conservative (Ted Cruz),
Liberals both fiscally and socially liberal (Obama),
Libertarians being fiscally conservative and socially liberal (Rand Paul),
and Populists being socially conservative  and fiscally liberal(Mike Huckabee).

Fiscal Liberals believe that if you imagine it to be then it will be, and that math is not something concrete.

Fiscal Conservatives believe that math is real and that if you spend more than you make you will have a problem.

Social Liberals believe that morals are not real and are just based on societal norms, therefor if you change society you can change proper morals. They are generally for same sex marriage, abortion, etc...

Social Conservatives believe that morals are based in reality and are not fluid. Typically that they are determined by God.


The graph that was originally posted here is the one that libertarians use which re-imagines social liberalism as social liberty making libertarianism the pinnacle of liberty.

Welcome to the forum.

I think you did an excellent job with your descriptions.
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Online Solar

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Hi everyone, I'm new here, nice to meet you. Now to the topic, I have seen these things laid out in a number of ways. If you tried to describe world-view as it truly is I am afraid it would be some kind of unillustratable ten dimensional monster. Just in this thread people have illustrated:
social lib -vs- social cons.
fiscal lib -vs- fiscal cons.
globalist -vs- nationalist
totalitarianism -vs- liberty
left ideology -vs- right ideology

Sort of the classical version of these graphs as I understand it has the two dimensions being social beliefs and fiscal beliefs with
Conservatives being both fiscally and socially conservative (Ted Cruz),
Liberals both fiscally and socially liberal (Obama),
Libertarians being fiscally conservative and socially liberal (Rand Paul),
and Populists being socially conservative  and fiscally liberal(Mike Huckabee).

Fiscal Liberals believe that if you imagine it to be then it will be, and that math is not something concrete.

Fiscal Conservatives believe that math is real and that if you spend more than you make you will have a problem.

Social Liberals believe that morals are not real and are just based on societal norms, therefor if you change society you can change proper morals. They are generally for same sex marriage, abortion, etc...

Social Conservatives believe that morals are based in reality and are not fluid. Typically that they are determined by God.


The graph that was originally posted here is the one that libertarians use which re-imagines social liberalism as social liberty making libertarianism the pinnacle of liberty.
Pretty spot on Jason, well done. Welcome to the forum by the way, good to have you aboard, you seem to have a solid grasp on the political world.
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Offline Hoofer

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Hi everyone, I'm new here, nice to meet you. Now to the topic, I have seen these things laid out in a number of ways. If you tried to describe world-view as it truly is I am afraid it would be some kind of unillustratable ten dimensional monster. Just in this thread people have illustrated:
social lib -vs- social cons.
fiscal lib -vs- fiscal cons.
globalist -vs- nationalist
totalitarianism -vs- liberty
left ideology -vs- right ideology

Sort of the classical version of these graphs as I understand it has the two dimensions being social beliefs and fiscal beliefs with
Conservatives being both fiscally and socially conservative (Ted Cruz),
Liberals both fiscally and socially liberal (Obama),
Libertarians being fiscally conservative and socially liberal (Rand Paul),
and Populists being socially conservative  and fiscally liberal(Mike Huckabee).

Fiscal Liberals believe that if you imagine it to be then it will be, and that math is not something concrete.

Fiscal Conservatives believe that math is real and that if you spend more than you make you will have a problem.

Social Liberals believe that morals are not real and are just based on societal norms, therefor if you change society you can change proper morals. They are generally for same sex marriage, abortion, etc...

Social Conservatives believe that morals are based in reality and are not fluid. Typically that they are determined by God.


The graph that was originally posted here is the one that libertarians use which re-imagines social liberalism as social liberty making libertarianism the pinnacle of liberty.

Interesting....  I understand why Libertarians would wish to elevate themselves as the best of all for Liberty - to appeal to voters.
If a person is a Constitutional Conservative, I assume they would be the the best part of a Libertarian & Conservative & an Individualist (or Independent?).... right?   Not an argument, but looking for greater understanding.

I'm all for the freedom of conscience of the individual, as the Bible & Constitution allows, call those natural rights, endowed by the Creator.
But, the typical conservative seems to be "drifting" away from the founding documents and principles (and retaining the name, Conservative).

So these charts, though interesting, basically place that position nowhere that makes sense.   Either it's my lack of understanding, or someone is changing the 'standard' - so called.

I'd like to see an "honest" chart.

Welcome and thank for your input.
All animals are created equal; Some just take longer to cook.   Survival is keeping an eye on those around you...

Online Solar

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Interesting....  I understand why Libertarians would wish to elevate themselves as the best of all for Liberty - to appeal to voters.
If a person is a Constitutional Conservative, I assume they would be the the best part of a Libertarian & Conservative & an Individualist (or Independent?).... right?   Not an argument, but looking for greater understanding.

I'm all for the freedom of conscience of the individual, as the Bible & Constitution allows, call those natural rights, endowed by the Creator.
But, the typical conservative seems to be "drifting" away from the founding documents and principles (and retaining the name, Conservative).

So these charts, though interesting, basically place that position nowhere that makes sense.   Either it's my lack of understanding, or someone is changing the 'standard' - so called.

I'd like to see an "honest" chart.

Welcome and thank for your input.
Today's true Conservative is yesteryears Classic liberal, so we have not changed, it's the leftist gop'E that's attempting to usurp tyhe very meaning of Conservative via the help of the LSM that's making you question its meaning.
I assure you, Conservatives have not changed, the very meaning of the term.
Koolaid is for kids, TEA is for adults

Offline JasonTarmon

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Here is a chart I ran across today that graphs voters in the 2016 presidential election based on the same ideological categories that I outlined earlier in this thread. Libertarians are a loud group but, at least according to this study, basically don't exist.

It is also a bit concerning how centrist Republicans are fiscally. Bad news.


Offline Hoofer

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Here is a chart I ran across today that graphs voters in the 2016 presidential election based on the same ideological categories that I outlined earlier in this thread. Libertarians are a loud group but, at least according to this study, basically don't exist.

It is also a bit concerning how centrist Republicans are fiscally. Bad news.

Libertarians cover the entire plot, almost evenly, IMHO, makes them non-existent & neutered as a political force - ie., Rand Paul as a perfect example.   If the guy was only paid for productivity, he would be starving and homeless.
All animals are created equal; Some just take longer to cook.   Survival is keeping an eye on those around you...

 

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