This is a link to a Washington Post article detailing several cases of what I can only describe as road pirating by police. Ordinary citizens, small business owners traveling with cash have it seized under civil forfeiture laws without trial. The citizen must sue the government at their own expense to get it back. These guys make Somali pirates look like amateurs.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/sf/investigative/2014/09/08/they-fought-the-law-who-won/

My take on this:

What has the drug war done for America?
It seems to me – nothing good is the answer.

Started in 1971, the war on drugs has been going on for 43 years. Longer then the civil war, WWI, WWII, Korean war, Vietnam Afghanistan and Iraq all combined – guess what?
We still have drugs.

We also have more people in prison then the people's republic of China does (and they have twice as many people). Militarized police? Asset confiscation?

And worse of all, we have a weakened constitution.
By allowing the federal government to use a flimsy excuse to grab a power that they are not granted in the constitution (namely, telling people what they can and cannot consume); we weaken the constitution. Then, when they use that same excuse to regulate guns, confiscate your property or any number of things that you do happen to care about – you will cry foul, and only then pay attention to the constitution and the limited and enumerated powers granted to the government.

What say you?

I find it strange to see how out of touch the American bureaucrats are in general, sounds more like a STASI bureaucracy than a free country when even getting your money back from the police takes years when there was no wrongdoing. Maybe it's because the population is too big there is no social punishment for corrupt police officers in the community than there would be in small towns, or this has nothing to do with corrupt fringe officers but the drug war has created too much work overload and regulations on the bureaucrats that it is impossible to get the due process done right or legally.

As for the analogy to China, one story during Vlad the Impaler reign in Wallachia he placed a gold cup in the center of every town as a symbol of his authority and none dared steal the cup because the punishments were so severe.

In communist country if you commit a crime it's not just you who goes to prison and get tortured it is your entire family, sometimes two or three generations down the line that goes to prison as in the case of North Korea, you can expect your sister, daughter and mother to get systematically and routinely raped in front of you as well as your brothers and father tortured. In USA you get a slap on wrist show up in court in a few months if not we will be angry and arrest you harsher next time you commit a crime... Deterrence works.

Quote from: Mountainshield on September 09, 2014, 04:35:38 AM
As for the analogy to China, one story during Vlad the Impaler reign in Wallachia he placed a gold cup in the center of every town as a symbol of his authority and none dared steal the cup because the punishments were so severe.

He was called "the Impaler" - I would not have touched his shit either.

A thought just occurred to me. The "Impaler" would make the best porn name ever!

Cool story, I never heard that before. Thanks.

Quote from: Novanglus on September 08, 2014, 08:40:58 PM
What say you?

I wouldn't put too much stock into a narrowly focused investigation like that. 

You-and-your-vehicle shouldn't look illogical while traveling.  That seems to be the problem.  There's no mention of game-wardens, who can pull-you-over too.  There's the Mounties, the Texas Rangers... you just can't attract attention to your vehicle, then vent at authorities for your-own unwittingness.   

Quote from: kit saginaw on September 09, 2014, 08:47:28 AM
I wouldn't put too much stock into a narrowly focused investigation like that. 

You-and-your-vehicle shouldn't look illogical while traveling.  That seems to be the problem.  There's no mention of game-wardens, who can pull-you-over too.  There's the Mounties, the Texas Rangers... you just can't attract attention to your vehicle, then vent at authorities for your-own unwittingness.

LOL, reminds me of the car-full I spotted one night while me and the "sheriff" were out camping in deer season.  There was this car-full of men coming out of the hunt range with a deer ontop of their car which was equipped with side spotlights.  The problem was the game warden had them stopped and it was a good two hours after dark.  BTW, steam still coming off the still-warm deer.  Illegal to kill deer after dark in my state using spotlights as we all know this blinds the deer and makes them an easy kill.  Guess they aren't doing this any more, at least this few.  Most likely got stripped of even their vehicle.

Quote from: kit saginaw on September 09, 2014, 08:47:28 AM
You-and-your-vehicle shouldn't look illogical while traveling.  That seems to be the problem.  There's no mention of game-wardens, who can pull-you-over too.  There's the Mounties, the Texas Rangers... you just can't attract attention to your vehicle, then vent at authorities for your-own unwittingness.

I'm not sure how to respond, except to say that is the most un-American, fascist, dangerous attitude I have heard on this forum so far.

It's the citizens responsibility to "look logical." Don't do anything that attracts the attention or "the man" will come - search you, and if he can't find anything illegal - he'll just take the cash you have without a trial. That will teach those citizens not to look illogical! it is their own fault anyway - this is America, you should fit in!

Which brings me to my next point, it seems as if the government is trying to discourage people from using cash. I wonder why they would do that? Makes it easy to track people?

I think the game warden generally has to find proof that an illegal act has likely been or will likely be committed (like you come walking out of the woods with a basket of fish in one hand and dynamite in the other). The police, just take cash - no evidence of anything illegal at all - just having cash is enough for them to take it - does that sound like the America way to you?

Quote from: Novanglus on September 09, 2014, 11:40:01 AM
I'm not sure how to respond, except to say that is the most un-American, fascist, dangerous attitude I have heard on this forum so far.

It's the citizens responsibility to "look logical." Don't do anything that attracts the attention or "the man" will come - search you, and if he can't find anything illegal - he'll just take the cash you have without a trial. That will teach those citizens not to look illogical! it is their own fault anyway - this is America, you should fit in!

Which brings me to my next point, it seems as if the government is trying to discourage people from using cash. I wonder why they would do that? Makes it easy to track people?

I think the game warden generally has to find proof that an illegal act has likely been or will likely be committed (like you come walking out of the woods with a basket of fish in one hand and dynamite in the other). The police, just take cash - no evidence of anything illegal at all - just having cash is enough for them to take it - does that sound like the America way to you?

Carrying gigantic sums of paper-cash in your car has nothing to do with patriotism.

It's illogical to do that.  That's why you convert cash into 'travelers checks' before you go somewhere, or wire-transfer your funds to yourself at your destination via Western Union.  Just show ID and signature. 

Police, in every country since the beginning of time, are suspicious of large amounts of currency in-transit, absent of bonded security safeguards.  Sure, it's legal to transport it if it's yours and you can prove it.  But it's considered 'suspicious', thus warranted to be temporarily seized and safeguarded. 

If it's a 'few thousand', the overwhelming majority of officers couldn't care less about you keeping it, and will probably advise you to carry travelers checks instead of cash.   

Read my posts to see how un-American I am, then get back to me.   

Quote from: kit saginaw on September 09, 2014, 03:22:12 PM
Carrying gigantic sums of paper-cash in your car has nothing to do with patriotism.

It's illogical to do that.  That's why you convert cash into 'travelers checks' before you go somewhere, or wire-transfer your funds to yourself at your destination via Western Union.  Just show ID and signature. 

Police, in every country since the beginning of time, are suspicious of large amounts of currency in-transit, absent of bonded security safeguards.  Sure, it's legal to transport it if it's yours and you can prove it.  But it's considered 'suspicious', thus warranted to be temporarily seized and safeguarded. 

If it's a 'few thousand', the overwhelming majority of officers couldn't care less about you keeping it, and will probably advise you to carry travelers checks instead of cash.   

Read my posts to see how un-American I am, then get back to me.   

No, there was a time when cash was all that existed.
But I digress

First, they are not temporarily seizing it - they are keeping it and splitting it with the feds. the citizen has to sue to get it back.

Second, if you read the article; you would see that all of these people had legitimate reasons for having cash- they where small business owners and such.

Third, carrying money is not reasonable suspicion of any crime - which is why they take the money under civil forfeiture as apposed to criminal. Really twisting and, distorting the constitution to circumvent the protections Americans are supposed to have.

Lastly, it's unconstitutional - and you blame the citizen, who did nothing wrong at all. But hey, many Americans don't care if someone else's rights are violated, as long as it does not happen to you. After all, you don't do drugs, so who cares if the drug war is unconstitutional; who cares if the police run rampant trying to seize money.

Until they violate the constitution in a way that effects you - you don't care if it's unconstitutional. Those drugies must be stopped! So we violate a few amendments.... baaa, no biggy.

Remember this attitude when they come for a right you personally enjoy. And stop apologizing for the road pirates - It makes me think you A. are one or B. Are aspiring to be one. You can be a LEO and not be a road pirate you know.

Martin Niemöller said in 1947
First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Socialist.
Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Trade Unionist.
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.

Speed-traps are road-pirating.

Temporarily seizing large amounts of currency isn't.

What are they supposed to do if they found unusually-large amounts of postage-stamps, Government-bonds, patent-letters, contract-bids, money-orders, Treasury-securities, vehicle-ID lists, precious metals, sealed documents, license-plates, etc.?  Not to mention their adherence to US-Code, Chapter 25's Fed counterfeiting and trafficking statutes.   

The currency is being transported on public streets and roads.

You can get it back after 'jumping through various hoops', depending on the location of the pullover.  It's not supposed to be easy.

Every 'agency', municipality, county, and state are audited.  Authorities aren't just 'divvying it up'.  Otherwise, why don't they just find obscurely-ordanced reasons to enter private residences and seize even more cash?

The WaPo-article is just a thinly disguised leftwing anti-police hit-piece.   Like I said; game-wardens, park-rangers, et al, can pull you over too.  Why aren't they lumped-into the 'road pirate' scenario?

I'm only 'blaming the citizens' for being un-cool in not hiding their cash intelligently.   

Quote from: kit saginaw on September 10, 2014, 01:50:57 AM
Speed-traps are road-pirating.

Waiting on the side of the road for people with money to pass, stopping them, taking the money without arrest, charges, a warrant or any other legal process - Sounds like what a pirate does, right out of the Somali pirates guide.

Quote from: kit saginaw on September 10, 2014, 01:50:57 AM
Temporarily seizing large amounts of currency isn't.

Again it's not temporary, the citizen has to sue to get it back. One guy spent 7,000 in legal fees to get back 17,000 they took. He owned a business and was on his way to purchase supplies.

Quote from: kit saginaw on September 10, 2014, 01:50:57 AM
What are they supposed to do if they found unusually-large amounts of postage-stamps, Government-bonds, patent-letters, contract-bids, money-orders, Treasury-securities, vehicle-ID lists, precious metals, sealed documents, license-plates, etc.?  Not to mention their adherence to US-Code, Chapter 25's Fed counterfeiting and trafficking statutes.   

They are supposed to do nothing if a law is not being broken. People have the right to travel unmolested, un-harassed. People should not fear that the police are going to take what they worked for just because they are traveling with it.

Quote from: kit saginaw on September 10, 2014, 01:50:57 AM
The currency is being transported on public streets and roads.

So?
That gives the police the right to take property from who have committed no crime?

Quote from: kit saginaw on September 10, 2014, 01:50:57 AM
You can get it back after 'jumping through various hoops', depending on the location of the pullover.  It's not supposed to be easy.

Sometimes you can get some of it back, years later - after you pay a few thousand dollars in legal fees.

Quote from: kit saginaw on September 10, 2014, 01:50:57 AM
Every 'agency', municipality, county, and state are audited.  Authorities aren't just 'divvying it up'.  Otherwise, why don't they just find obscurely-ordanced reasons to enter private residences and seize even more cash?

Yes they do just "divvy it up", (and money is the motive) read:
http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2013/08/12/taken

And sometimes they do enter homes under flimsy excuse and confiscate property; although they have to be a little more carful then they do when road pirating, read:
http://www.tokeofthetown.com/2011/03/cops_charged_after_being_caught_on_tape_in_botched.php
or
http://newstome.blog.ajc.com/2014/09/04/parents-evicted-for-sons-40-in-drugs/

Quote from: kit saginaw on September 10, 2014, 01:50:57 AM
The WaPo-article is just a thinly disguised leftwing anti-police hit-piece.   Like I said; game-wardens, park-rangers, et al, can pull you over too.  Why aren't they lumped-into the 'road pirate' scenario?

Yes, but do they deserve it?
The WaPo - is a lib rag, but even a broken clock is right twice a day.

P.S.
I don't think you are unpatriotic, you prob just have a lot of respect for authority - even when they don't deserve it.

True.  They're never my enemy.  The objective is to keep the cavalry-column flowing...

Quote from: Novanglus on September 08, 2014, 08:40:58 PM
And worse of all, we have a weakened constitution.
By allowing the federal government to use a flimsy excuse to grab a power that they are not granted in the constitution (namely, telling people what they can and cannot consume); we weaken the constitution. Then, when they use that same excuse to regulate guns, confiscate your property or any number of things that you do happen to care about – you will cry foul, and only then pay attention to the constitution and the limited and enumerated powers granted to the government.

What say you?

I say it is all true, and good reason to work for real change.  I don't think we get that without doing something VERY different.  Or,  all the methods of change we've grown up thinking worked, do not work.  In fact, from what I can tell, a great deal of the time our efforts produce results opposite of what we are lead to expect.

For this reason I scratched real hard to get to the bottom of our expectations as Americans, and came up with a very different  approach.

http://conservativepoliticalforum.com/the-constitution/it's-crazy-to-consider-article-v-without-preparation-for-it/

Quote from: ChristopherABrown on October 26, 2014, 07:24:54 PM


I say it is all true, and good reason to work for real change.  I don't think we get that without doing something VERY different.  Or,  all the methods of change we've grown up thinking worked, do not work.  In fact, from what I can tell, a great deal of the time our efforts produce results opposite of what we are lead to expect.

For this reason I scratched real hard to get to the bottom of our expectations as Americans, and came up with a very different  approach.

http://conservativepoliticalforum.com/the-constitution/it's-crazy-to-consider-article-v-without-preparation-for-it/

One more that will not be posting back to you.  Your batting 2 of 2.

Quote from: Novanglus on September 09, 2014, 05:49:34 AM
He was called "the Impaler" - I would not have touched his shit either.

A thought just occurred to me. The "Impaler" would make the best porn name ever!

Cool story, I never heard that before. Thanks.

With ALL the "Dracula" movies out there. And I don't know how many which talk about "vlad" and "vlad the impaler" I find that hard to believe.

Unless you happen not to reside in any Western nations that is.

Quote from: daidalos on January 24, 2015, 07:16:09 PM
With ALL the "Dracula" movies out there. And I don't know how many which talk about "vlad" and "vlad the impaler" I find that hard to believe.

Unless you happen not to reside in any Western nations that is.

Don't watch the new movie which tells "the real story"  I was stupid enough to think it would be historical, but it was only preteen vampire fetish movie.