Conservative Political Forum

General Category => Political Discussion and Debate => Topic started by: Solar on November 21, 2012, 01:28:20 PM

Title: Pissing Off The Libs and ACLU
Post by: Solar on November 21, 2012, 01:28:20 PM
Teen sentenced to 10 years of church attendance

Religion News Services reports Judge Mike Norman gave Tyler Alred, 17, a 10-year deferred sentence for DUI manslaughter. Alred was driving a pickup truck that crashed and killed a passenger in December 2011.

In deferring the sentence, the judge not only ordered Alred to a decade of church attendance, but also required him to finish high school and welding school.

Alred's attorney and the victim's family agreed to the terms of the sentence.

The ACLU in Oklahoma calls the church requirement a "clear violation of the First Amendment."
http://www.ksl.com/?sid=23047435&nid=1016&title=teen-sentenced-to-10-years-of-church-attendance&s_cid=queue-5 (http://www.ksl.com/?sid=23047435&nid=1016&title=teen-sentenced-to-10-years-of-church-attendance&s_cid=queue-5)
Title: Re: Pissing Off The Libs and ACLU
Post by: Yawn on November 21, 2012, 01:33:27 PM
QuoteThe ACLU in Oklahoma calls the church requirement a "clear violation of the First Amendment."

The wicked ACLU is again WRONG because.....
QuoteAlred's attorney and the victim's family agreed to the terms of the sentence.
Title: Re: Pissing Off The Libs and ACLU
Post by: Solar on November 21, 2012, 01:37:00 PM
Quote from: Yawn on November 21, 2012, 01:33:27 PM
The wicked ACLU is again WRONG because.....
I loved that part, it literally tied the ACLU hands behind their backs.
They so badly wanted to intervene, only to sit in the corner and sulk. :laugh:
Title: Re: Pissing Off The Libs and ACLU
Post by: kramarat on November 21, 2012, 01:53:43 PM
Quote from: Solar on November 21, 2012, 01:37:00 PM
I loved that part, it literally tied the ACLU hands behind their backs.
They so badly wanted to intervene, only to sit in the corner and sulk. :laugh:

I'm sure this is not forced religion. His option was to go to prison. His pick. :smile:
Title: Re: Pissing Off The Libs and ACLU
Post by: rocca on November 21, 2012, 01:56:33 PM
Quote from: Solar on November 21, 2012, 01:37:00 PM
I loved that part, it literally tied the ACLU hands behind their backs.
They so badly wanted to intervene, only to sit in the corner and sulk. :laugh:

If the ACLU were to intervene and successfully thrown the church 'sentence' out, I imagine the kid will instead have to spend some time in jail. I'm sure they'd rather have that outcome than have the First Amendment 'violated'.
Title: Re: Pissing Off The Libs and ACLU
Post by: BILLY Defiant on November 21, 2012, 04:19:13 PM
Now wait a minute....you'll have some idiot in the ACLU and the Obamao commie regime say this is why they need to adopt some UN resolution about parents not being able to discipline their children or agreeing to discipline their children by the CJS.


Billy
Title: Re: Pissing Off The Libs and ACLU
Post by: Darth Fife on November 21, 2012, 06:51:23 PM
I've always been opposed to these kinds of sentences - regardless of the religious aspect.

This kid gets away with manslaughter and has to attend church for 10 years.

Some black kid in the inner city would probably get hard time.

Is that "Equal Justice Under the Law"?

I don't think so!
Title: Re: Pissing Off The Libs and ACLU
Post by: Solar on November 21, 2012, 07:21:04 PM
Quote from: Darth Fife on November 21, 2012, 06:51:23 PM
I've always been opposed to these kinds of sentences - regardless of the religious aspect.

This kid gets away with manslaughter and has to attend church for 10 years.

Some black kid in the inner city would probably get hard time.

Is that "Equal Justice Under the Law"?

I don't think so!
Do you know for a fact that black judges in predominantly black communities don't do creative sentencing?

There is more to the story, keep in mind, the victims family wanted leniency as well.

Dum died Dec. 3, 2011, after being ejected from a Chevrolet pickup driven by Alred at 4 a.m. on a county road a few miles east of Muskogee. The pickup veered off the east side of the road and struck a tree before going airborne. Dum was pinned under the vehicle and pronounced dead at the scene. Alred and a third teenager also in the vehicle were uninjured. Neither Alred nor Dum were wearing seatbelts.

tyler alredTyler Alred
Alred was taken to jail under suspicion of driving under the influence but was then released to a guardian. When a warrant for his arrest didn't come until February, Dum's parents wondered why it took two months for the district attorney's office to determine whether charges would be filed. Alred was charged as a youthful offender, giving the courts wide latitude, ranging from rehabilitation with the Oklahoma Juvenile Authority to a full adult sentence in prison.

Alred pleaded guilty in August in a blind plea, meaning he would accept whatever sentence the judge decided and there was no plea bargain.

During the sentencing hearing, one of Dum's two sisters said there was no sense in ruining two lives by sending Alred to prison. Alred's lawyer told the judge that his client's life was hanging in the balance.

"The issue you have, judge, is whether we're going to destroy two lives," Baker said. "One we can't do anything about. The other, like they said, you're the judge, so it's up to you. I usually represent outlaws, and criminals. This is a kid that made a mistake. Judge, I think he's worth saving."

Taking into account Alred's clean criminal and school records, Judge Norman agreed. After completing the rest of the requirements in his sentence, Alred will have the charge removed from his record.

"Only time will tell if we've saved Tyler Alred's life," the judge said.
http://www.abpnews.com/ministry/people/item/7981-teen-sentenced-to-church-for-manslaughter#.UK2ZF4YstOY (http://www.abpnews.com/ministry/people/item/7981-teen-sentenced-to-church-for-manslaughter#.UK2ZF4YstOY)
Title: Re: Pissing Off The Libs and ACLU
Post by: Darth Fife on November 21, 2012, 07:31:33 PM
Quote from: Solar on November 21, 2012, 07:21:04 PM
Do you know for a fact that black judges in predominantly black communities don't do creative sentencing?

There is more to the story, keep in mind, the victims family wanted leniency as well.

Dum died Dec. 3, 2011, after being ejected from a Chevrolet pickup driven by Alred at 4 a.m. on a county road a few miles east of Muskogee. The pickup veered off the east side of the road and struck a tree before going airborne. Dum was pinned under the vehicle and pronounced dead at the scene. Alred and a third teenager also in the vehicle were uninjured. Neither Alred nor Dum were wearing seatbelts.

tyler alredTyler Alred
Alred was taken to jail under suspicion of driving under the influence but was then released to a guardian. When a warrant for his arrest didn't come until February, Dum's parents wondered why it took two months for the district attorney's office to determine whether charges would be filed. Alred was charged as a youthful offender, giving the courts wide latitude, ranging from rehabilitation with the Oklahoma Juvenile Authority to a full adult sentence in prison.

Alred pleaded guilty in August in a blind plea, meaning he would accept whatever sentence the judge decided and there was no plea bargain.

During the sentencing hearing, one of Dum's two sisters said there was no sense in ruining two lives by sending Alred to prison. Alred's lawyer told the judge that his client's life was hanging in the balance.

"The issue you have, judge, is whether we're going to destroy two lives," Baker said. "One we can't do anything about. The other, like they said, you're the judge, so it's up to you. I usually represent outlaws, and criminals. This is a kid that made a mistake. Judge, I think he's worth saving."

Taking into account Alred's clean criminal and school records, Judge Norman agreed. After completing the rest of the requirements in his sentence, Alred will have the charge removed from his record.

"Only time will tell if we've saved Tyler Alred's life," the judge said.
http://www.abpnews.com/ministry/people/item/7981-teen-sentenced-to-church-for-manslaughter#.UK2ZF4YstOY (http://www.abpnews.com/ministry/people/item/7981-teen-sentenced-to-church-for-manslaughter#.UK2ZF4YstOY)

Do you know for a fact that they do?

Maybe I'm a tad bitter.

I had a niece die in prison after she received the maximum sentence for selling drugs (as a first offense). She wasn't a "dealer" she was selling for the same reason most druggies sell - to make money to support their habit. The effing D.A. wanted to make a name for himself.

Everybody's got a sob story! If you get the right judge, or can hire a high powered lawyer, you get off light.

If not, you get screwed!



Title: Re: Pissing Off The Libs and ACLU
Post by: hfishjr81 on November 21, 2012, 07:36:32 PM
Quote from: Darth Fife on November 21, 2012, 06:51:23 PM
I've always been opposed to these kinds of sentences - regardless of the religious aspect.

This kid gets away with manslaughter and has to attend church for 10 years.

Some black kid in the inner city would probably get hard time.

Is that "Equal Justice Under the Law"?

I don't think so!


Agreed. 

'School, church, and welding school' isn't a punishment for taking a life.  Not to mention the fact that this type of sentence sets a bad example for other kids that are thinking about being idiots , drinking while driving. 

Though setting in church is like being in prison, it still doesn't quite cut it, just my opinion.  :thumbdown:
Title: Re: Pissing Off The Libs and ACLU
Post by: JustKari on November 21, 2012, 07:53:53 PM
I am completely opposed to this sentence.

1.  Church is not a punishment.

2.  In no way can they enforce it.

3.   He could choose a "church" like Westborough Baptist, which obviously, is not going to help anyone.
Title: Re: Pissing Off The Libs and ACLU
Post by: Yawn on November 21, 2012, 07:57:57 PM
I don't think it's meant to be punishment.  It is rehabilitation.  It's going to school to learn basic morality.
Title: Re: Pissing Off The Libs and ACLU
Post by: kramarat on November 21, 2012, 08:01:06 PM
Quote from: JustKari on November 21, 2012, 07:53:53 PM
I am completely opposed to this sentence.

1.  Church is not a punishment.

2.  In no way can they enforce it.

3.   He could choose a "church" like Westborough Baptist, which obviously, is not going to help anyone.

I'm torn. I don't believe that church was intended to be a punishment.

I think it was intended to give this dumb kid a new lease on life...............maybe reflect a little. Maybe provide him with an opportunity to help rectify his massive screw up, rather than tossing him in prison.
Title: Re: Pissing Off The Libs and ACLU
Post by: Solar on November 21, 2012, 08:37:39 PM
Quote from: Yawn on November 21, 2012, 07:57:57 PM
I don't think it's meant to be punishment.  It is rehabilitation.  It's going to school to learn basic morality.
That's exactly what it was, even the family of the victim didn't want him to go to prison.
Hell, it was kids being stupid, they weren't even wearing seat belts and he wasn't even drunk according to police.

Should we throw the full weight of the courts every time something bad happens?
I certainly wouldn't want to be a kid in this day and age, considering all the stupid stuff I used to get away with.
Title: Re: Pissing Off The Libs and ACLU
Post by: hfishjr81 on November 21, 2012, 08:48:31 PM
Quote from: Solar on November 21, 2012, 08:37:39 PM
That's exactly what it was, even the family of the victim didn't want him to go to prison.
Hell, it was kids being stupid, they weren't even wearing seat belts and he wasn't even drunk according to police.

Should we throw the full weight of the courts every time something bad happens?
I certainly wouldn't want to be a kid in this day and age, considering all the stupid stuff I used to get away with.



Did you take a life with your stupidity? Cause if you didn't than youre not comparing apples to apples here.

Full weight of the law thrown at this young man? No, but much more than "you gotta go to church and finish school".
Title: Re: Pissing Off The Libs and ACLU
Post by: walkstall on November 21, 2012, 08:52:19 PM
Quote from: Solar on November 21, 2012, 08:37:39 PM
That's exactly what it was, even the family of the victim didn't want him to go to prison.
Hell, it was kids being stupid, they weren't even wearing seat belts and he wasn't even drunk according to police.

Should we throw the full weight of the courts every time something bad happens?
I certainly wouldn't want to be a kid in this day and age, considering all the stupid stuff I used to get away with.

I would have been in jail at the age of 9 more then once.   :ohmy: 
Title: Re: Pissing Off The Libs and ACLU
Post by: Solar on November 22, 2012, 05:15:40 AM
Quote from: hfishjr81 on November 21, 2012, 08:48:31 PM


Did you take a life with your stupidity? Cause if you didn't than youre not comparing apples to apples here.

Full weight of the law thrown at this young man? No, but much more than "you gotta go to church and finish school".
So the law should ignore the wishes of the victims family?
What good does prison do, when this was not a crime of malice, but stupidity, punish an act of stupidity the same as one of intent?
The kids were being stupid, the victim is equally culpable in that he neglected to protect himself by wearing a seat belt.
No, this was nothing more than Darwin's law in effect.
Title: Re: Pissing Off The Libs and ACLU
Post by: Solar on November 22, 2012, 05:18:09 AM
Quote from: walkstall on November 21, 2012, 08:52:19 PM
I would have been in jail at the age of 9 more then once.   :ohmy:
Yep, I'd be in solitary for life.
Title: Re: Pissing Off The Libs and ACLU
Post by: Not Politically Correct on November 22, 2012, 05:34:08 AM
Solar,

"Which Folks Do ya Support"

Not an easy question?

Good, Moral, Positive, Kick Ass Winners?

Moral Equivalency?     

Now that I know your IQ is 160....YOU cannot duck the question... :popcorn:
Title: Re: Pissing Off The Libs and ACLU
Post by: Solar on November 22, 2012, 06:16:23 AM
Quote from: Not Politically Correct on November 22, 2012, 05:34:08 AM
Solar,

"Which Folks Do ya Support"

Not an easy question?

Good, Moral, Positive, Kick Ass Winners?

Moral Equivalency?     

Now that I know your IQ is 160....YOU cannot duck the question... :popcorn:
Context? Is it something to do with the OP, or completely out of context to the article?
I haven't a clue as to what you're asking.
Title: Re: Pissing Off The Libs and ACLU
Post by: Not Politically Correct on November 22, 2012, 06:23:57 AM
Good Point...Solar

It is About Your Conservative Orientaion....an not about a GivenThread;
'Obviously you are ANTI anything that Smacks of Liberal.....

But you ARE a very Smart Person......

We, as a Country Have Complex Problems:

What needs to happen IYO....

NPC
Title: Re: Pissing Off The Libs and ACLU
Post by: Solar on November 22, 2012, 06:48:23 AM
Quote from: Not Politically Correct on November 22, 2012, 06:23:57 AM
Good Point...Solar

It is About Your Conservative Orientaion....an not about a GivenThread;
'Obviously you are ANTI anything that Smacks of Liberal.....

But you ARE a very Smart Person......

We, as a Country Have Complex Problems:

What needs to happen IYO....

NPC
Let's not derail the thread, so make this the last post on your question.

What needs to happen, will never happen, what is taking place, took decades to congeal.
Thank our so called "greatest generation", they screwed the rest of us, even my own father born at the turn of the last century apologized for screwing us.

I see no way out of this mess, the leftists generation cares nothing of history and ignores the consequences there of.
It's also why I posed the ridiculous question what if we lose the country in the next four years, do we help bankrupt it into submission, or actually fight in the physical sense.

I've always been an optimist, but with both party's full of liberals, I no longer see our silver lining, that is unless we can wrestle both Houses back come mid term, otherwise I see no righting this great ship, only scuttling it.

For future reference, IQ equivalency is a complete joke, it's a tool used by the academe as a way of justifying their worthless existence, the majority of educated people I know are some of the stupidest people the walk the earth.
The most intelligent people i know never needed college to succeed, success came natural as did their intellect.

If you really wanted a true measurement of intellect, there should be a commonsense test, not a memory test.
Title: Re: Pissing Off The Libs and ACLU
Post by: walkstall on November 22, 2012, 07:03:41 AM
Quote from: Solar on November 22, 2012, 06:48:23 AM
Let's not derail the thread, so make this the last post on your question.

What needs to happen, will never happen, what is taking place, took decades to congeal.
Thank our so called "greatest generation", they screwed the rest of us, even my own father born at the turn of the last century apologized for screwing us.

I see no way out of this mess, the leftists generation cares nothing of history and ignores the consequences there of.
It's also why I posed the ridiculous question what if we lose the country in the next four years, do we help bankrupt it into submission, or actually fight in the physical sense.

I've always been an optimist, but with both party's full of liberals, I no longer see our silver lining, that is unless we can wrestle both Houses back come mid term, otherwise I see no righting this great ship, only scuttling it.

For future reference, IQ equivalency is a complete joke, it's a tool used by the academe as a way of justifying their worthless existence, the majority of educated people I know are some of the stupidest people the walk the earth.
The most intelligent people i know never needed college to succeed, success came natural as did their intellect.

If you really wanted a true measurement of intellect, there should be a commonsense test, not a memory test.

The important things in life I learned at my grandfather's and dads feet.
Title: Re: Pissing Off The Libs and ACLU
Post by: hfishjr81 on November 22, 2012, 09:15:32 AM
Quote from: Solar on November 22, 2012, 05:15:40 AM
So the law should ignore the wishes of the victims family?
What good does prison do, when this was not a crime of malice, but stupidity, punish an act of stupidity the same as one of intent?
The kids were being stupid, the victim is equally culpable in that he neglected to protect himself by wearing a seat belt.
No, this was nothing more than Darwin's law in effect.


It shouldn't ignore the wishes of the victims family, but when  a life is taken it should act as equally in judgement across the board no matter the wishes from families.

I dont think life in prison would be the right punishment here, but I could certainly see them putting him in Juvenile detention until 18, probably less than a year, and then require him to do community service until 21, going from school to school talking about his actions and what it cost him. That would at least be better than painting church as a punishment.
Title: Re: Pissing Off The Libs and ACLU
Post by: Solar on November 22, 2012, 09:57:24 AM
Quote from: hfishjr81 on November 22, 2012, 09:15:32 AM

It shouldn't ignore the wishes of the victims family, but when  a life is taken it should act as equally in judgement across the board no matter the wishes from families.

I dont think life in prison would be the right punishment here, but I could certainly see them putting him in Juvenile detention until 18, probably less than a year, and then require him to do community service until 21, going from school to school talking about his actions and what it cost him. That would at least be better than painting church as a punishment.
Show me where he bent the rule of law or didn't act equally across the board..
The only ones pissed about the outcome of the trial is the ACLU, and I have no problem with that.

He could easily have given suspended sentence had he wished, but he didn't.
This was a class Class D felony, one in which retains leniency from the court, especially where a minor is concerned, or someone under 18.

Now show me he bent the rules of law.
Title: Re: Pissing Off The Libs and ACLU
Post by: Solar on November 22, 2012, 10:07:28 AM
I'll save you the embarrassment, scroll down to Oklahoma, the state where he adjudicates.

http://www.madd.org/laws/law-overview/Vehicular_Homicide_Overview.pdf (http://www.madd.org/laws/law-overview/Vehicular_Homicide_Overview.pdf)
Title: Re: Pissing Off The Libs and ACLU
Post by: hfishjr81 on November 22, 2012, 10:31:30 AM
Quote from: Solar on November 22, 2012, 10:07:28 AM
I'll save you the embarrassment, scroll down to Oklahoma, the state where he adjudicates.

http://www.madd.org/laws/law-overview/Vehicular_Homicide_Overview.pdf (http://www.madd.org/laws/law-overview/Vehicular_Homicide_Overview.pdf)



No need to be embarrassed here, even the judge called his actions "unconstitutional". 

Just because the state allows for "leniency" doesn't mean it calls for "unconstitutional" treatment, no matter how much some people wish to upset the "ACLU".   

I'd say this is a case where a judge, and those like minds of the judge, used a tragedy to push their religious agenda to stick it to groups that they dont like rather than focusing on a proper punishment that could really help the young man, and others, learn from his mistakes.
Title: Re: Pissing Off The Libs and ACLU
Post by: Solar on November 22, 2012, 11:13:16 AM
Quote from: hfishjr81 on November 22, 2012, 10:31:30 AM


No need to be embarrassed here, even the judge called his actions "unconstitutional". 
So now you change your tune. :laugh:
The part that could be called unconstitutional is sending him to church, but regardless, it was legal because all party's agreed to the terms.
QuoteJust because the state allows for "leniency" doesn't mean it calls for "unconstitutional" treatment, no matter how much some people wish to upset the "ACLU".   
So he did it to piss off the ACLU?
You're a riot!

QuoteI'd say this is a case where a judge, and those like minds of the judge, used a tragedy to push their religious agenda to stick it to groups that they dont like rather than focusing on a proper punishment that could really help the young man, and others, learn from his mistakes.
So now the law was designed as punishment?
It's a class D felony, one where judicial discretion may be applied, sending him back to school sounds like the law being applied was one of rehabilitation.
Study the law, it gives great latitude when deciding ones fate, accidental death is not always seen as a crime.

Keep in mind, this kid was well liked by the family, I can't say I'd feel the same way if it were my son, but this was their choice and the judge agreed.
Title: Re: Pissing Off The Libs and ACLU
Post by: hfishjr81 on November 22, 2012, 11:50:16 AM
Quote from: Solar on November 22, 2012, 11:13:16 AM
So now you change your tune. :laugh:



No, Im not. Judges do not equally knowingly act unconstitutional.

Quote from: Solar on November 22, 2012, 11:13:16 AM
The part that could be called unconstitutional is sending him to church, but regardless, it was legal because all party's agreed to the terms.So he did it to piss off the ACLU?

He did it knowing that it would upset people like the ACLU, and knowing it was "unconstitutional".

Quote from: Solar on November 22, 2012, 11:13:16 AM
So now the law was designed as punishment?
It's a class D felony, one where judicial discretion may be applied, sending him back to school sounds like the law being applied was one of rehabilitation.
Study the law, it gives great latitude when deciding ones fate, accidental death is not always seen as a crime.

Keep in mind, this kid was well liked by the family, I can't say I'd feel the same way if it were my son, but this was their choice and the judge agreed.


Sending him to school isn't a punishment, it's a privilege. Sending someone to church shouldn't be a punishment either.

When you get behind the wheel of a vehicle drunk and kill someone it should go from accidental death to manslaughter. Maybe involuntary but still manslaughter.


Am glad you can at least see a different side based on it being your son though. 
Title: Re: Pissing Off The Libs and ACLU
Post by: Solar on November 22, 2012, 12:10:16 PM
Quote from: hfishjr81 on November 22, 2012, 11:50:16 AM

No, Im not. Judges do not equally knowingly act unconstitutional.
What he did was legal, had he not had an agreement between the two party's and made the same ruling, it then and only then could be considered unconstitutional.

QuoteHe did it knowing that it would upset people like the ACLU, and knowing it was "unconstitutional".
Your ignorance of the law exposes your bias.

QuoteSending him to school isn't a punishment, it's a privilege. Sending someone to church shouldn't be a punishment either.
He is being forced to do something he may not have done on his own, doing so is called arrest, so yes, this is a form of court arrest and punishment.
But then, it was not really meant to be the kind of punishment you would like doled out, in it's stead it's designed as a rehabilitative sentence, one that is well within the law.

QuoteWhen you get behind the wheel of a vehicle drunk and kill someone it should go from accidental death to manslaughter. Maybe involuntary but still manslaughter.
He wasn't drunk!!!!!

QuoteAm glad you can at least see a different side based on it being your son though.
I've always been open minded, nothing has changed.
Title: Re: Pissing Off The Libs and ACLU
Post by: hfishjr81 on November 22, 2012, 12:34:51 PM
Quote from: Solar on November 22, 2012, 12:10:16 PM
What he did was legal, had he not had an agreement between the two party's and made the same ruling, it then and only then could be considered unconstitutional.

What he did, in his own words, was "unconstitutional".

Quote from: Solar on November 22, 2012, 12:10:16 PM
Your ignorance of the law exposes your bias.


Im only repeating the Judge about his actions. But I am going a step further and saying church shouldn't be used as a punishment, it's not just bad for church image but sends a terrible message to other kids pertaining to drinking and driving.  If you cant see that than you are allowing your bias and emotions guide you rather than the brain god supposedly gave you.

Quote from: Solar on November 22, 2012, 12:10:16 PM
He is being forced to do something he may not have done on his own, doing so is called arrest, so yes, this is a form of court arrest and punishment.

Youre wrong... Read a little, Solar.

"My client goes to church every Sunday," Baker said. "That isn't going to be a problem for him.

Read more from this Tulsa World article at http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectid=14&articleid=20121115_12_A11_CUTLIN265206&allcom=1 (http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectid=14&articleid=20121115_12_A11_CUTLIN265206&allcom=1)


As far as him not be drunk, ok, Ill give you that, but being a minor under the influence he is still breaking the law, and should take responsibility for the other lives he elects to drive around with.

And good, glad to hear you're open minded.  :thumbup:

Title: Re: Pissing Off The Libs and ACLU
Post by: JustKari on November 22, 2012, 12:53:02 PM
To clarify, I don't want "the book" thrown at him either.  I am glad that he and the victim's family came to an agreement, but I just don't think that going to church should have been an option. He could have been given a sentence of service to a VA hospital or at an intervention/rehab center. 
Title: Re: Pissing Off The Libs and ACLU
Post by: Solar on November 22, 2012, 02:28:22 PM
Quote from: hfishjr81 on November 22, 2012, 12:34:51 PM
What he did, in his own words, was "unconstitutional".
Again, so what? It was legal!
Do I need to explain it again, what is it with you libs?

QuoteIm only repeating the Judge about his actions. But I am going a step further and saying church shouldn't be used as a punishment, it's not just bad for church image but sends a terrible message to other kids pertaining to drinking and driving.  If you cant see that than you are allowing your bias and emotions guide you rather than the brain god supposedly gave you.


Youre wrong... Read a little, Solar.

"My client goes to church every Sunday," Baker said. "That isn't going to be a problem for him.
What part of rehabilitative do you not get?It was not punishment, it's a way to keep him occupied.
Read more from this Tulsa World article at http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectid=14&articleid=20121115_12_A11_CUTLIN265206&allcom=1 (http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectid=14&articleid=20121115_12_A11_CUTLIN265206&allcom=1)
Quote

As far as him not be drunk, ok, Ill give you that, but being a minor under the influence he is still breaking the law, and should take responsibility for the other lives he elects to drive around with.

And good, glad to hear you're open minded.  :thumbup:
He wasn't under the influence according to the police.
Also your link starts out with a biased lie.

He was not convicted for a DUI...
Title: Re: Pissing Off The Libs and ACLU
Post by: Darth Fife on November 22, 2012, 04:44:40 PM
Quote from: Solar on November 22, 2012, 05:15:40 AM
So the law should ignore the wishes of the victims family?

So are you saying manslaughter is just fine and dandy as long as you get the blessing of the family of the deceased?

QuoteWhat good does prison do, when this was not a crime of malice, but stupidity, punish an act of stupidity the same as one of intent?

I disagree. It was an act of intent! Is it a secret that it is illegal to drink if you are underage? Are there no warnings that drinking and driving is a deadly combination - especially if you are underage? In fact, I believe that in some states, even if you are not technically "under the influence" you can be arrested and lose your license for driving if you've been drinking and are underage.

It wasn't Murder 1, but make no mistake about it - this was an act of intent that had disastrous consequences.

QuoteThe kids were being stupid, the victim is equally culpable in that he neglected to protect himself by wearing a seat belt.
No, this was nothing more than Darwin's law in effect.

I never thought I'd ever hear you blame the victim!  :thumbdown:

God help me, but I agree with the Fishmeister! :scared:

Church is neither punishment nor is it rehabilitation!  He doesn't need to be in a state pen doing hard time; I like the idea of him doing a lot (say 2 or 3 years) of community service at the local V.A. Hospital. I could also see a scenario where he is required to spend a 24hr shift riding with a paramedic crew once a month.

But this attending Church thing is just bullshit!
Title: Re: Pissing Off The Libs and ACLU
Post by: Solar on November 22, 2012, 04:55:38 PM
Quote from: Darth Fife on November 22, 2012, 04:44:40 PM
So are you saying manslaughter is just fine and dandy as long as you get the blessing of the family of the deceased?
There is a reason we have manslaughter laws, look them up.
Quote
I disagree. It was an act of intent!
Wrong! Intent would carry a 1st degree murder charge.
QuoteIs it a secret that it is illegal to drink if you are underage? Are there no warnings that drinking and driving is a deadly combination - especially if you are underage? In fact, I believe that in some states, even if you are not technically "under the influence" you can be arrested and lose your license for driving if you've been drinking and are underage.
Read, would you? He was not charged with a DUI!!!
Quote
It wasn't Murder 1, but make no mistake about it - this was an act of intent that had disastrous consequences.
It's a good thing you never entered law school.
QuoteI never thought I'd ever hear you blame the victim!  :thumbdown:

God help me, but I agree with the Fishmeister! :scared:
And you see that as a badge of honor ?

QuoteChurch is neither punishment nor is it rehabilitation!  He doesn't need to be in a state pen doing hard time; I like the idea of him doing a lot (say 2 or 3 years) of community service at the local V.A. Hospital. I could also see a scenario where he is required to spend a 24hr shift riding with a paramedic crew once a month.
I have no problem with that either,.
QuoteBut this attending Church thing is just bullshit!
Your bias is noted.
Title: Re: Pissing Off The Libs and ACLU
Post by: Darth Fife on November 22, 2012, 05:12:00 PM
Quote from: Solar on November 22, 2012, 04:55:38 PM
There is a reason we have manslaughter laws, look them up.

If you insist...

Vehicular homicide (also known as vehicular manslaughter) in most states in the United States, is a crime. In general, it involves death that results from the negligent operation of a vehicle, or more so a result from driving while committing an unlawful act that does not amount to a felony.


As I said before, in most states it is illegal for someone under the age to drive if they have been drinking even if they are not legally under the influence. Even if it isn't under age drinking is illegal, there for it does fit the definition of vehicular manslaughter.

QuoteWrong! Intent would carry a 1st degree murder charge.Read, would you? He was not charged with a DUI!!!It's a good thing you never entered law school.

The "intent" was that he knowingly drove a vehicle after he had been drinking. Also, one could say that he was drinking under age even though he knew it was illegal - again intent.

I wouldn't sully myself by becoming a lawyer!

QuoteAnd you see that as a badge of honor ?

Not even close!  :lol:

QuoteI have no problem with that either,.

QuoteYour bias is noted.

So is yours! :wink:
Title: Re: Pissing Off The Libs and ACLU
Post by: BILLY Defiant on November 22, 2012, 05:16:17 PM
I am reminded of the Old days when Judges used to sentence juvenile offenders to "the Marines or the Army"..... take your pick. Probably half my Basic training barracks picked "the Army".... :lol:


Billy
Title: Re: Pissing Off The Libs and ACLU
Post by: hfishjr81 on November 22, 2012, 08:43:30 PM
Quote from: Darth Fife on November 22, 2012, 04:44:40 PM
God help me, but I agree with the Fishmeister! :scared:



God help us both!!  :ttoung:
Title: Re: Pissing Off The Libs and ACLU
Post by: hfishjr81 on November 22, 2012, 08:51:45 PM
Quote from: Solar on November 22, 2012, 02:28:22 PM
He was not convicted for a DUI...


"Alred was not legally drunk, but because he was below the legal drinking age, he was still considered to be driving under the influence of alcohol. The high school student pleaded guilty in August to a charge of manslaughter as a youthful offender."


He pleaded "guilty of manslaughter" for killing someone while driving under the influence (DUI).
Title: Re: Pissing Off The Libs and ACLU
Post by: Solar on November 23, 2012, 06:27:19 AM
Quote from: Darth Fife on November 22, 2012, 05:12:00 PM
If you insist...

Vehicular homicide (also known as vehicular manslaughter) in most states in the United States, is a crime. In general, it involves death that results from the negligent operation of a vehicle, or more so a result from driving while committing an unlawful act that does not amount to a felony.


As I said before, in most states it is illegal for someone under the age to drive if they have been drinking even if they are not legally under the influence. Even if it isn't under age drinking is illegal, there for it does fit the definition of vehicular manslaughter.
Which is also why there are classifications of the charge, in this case, a class D felony.

QuoteThe "intent" was that he knowingly drove a vehicle after he had been drinking. Also, one could say that he was drinking under age even though he knew it was illegal - again intent.

I wouldn't sully myself by becoming a lawyer!

Not even close!  :lol:

So is yours! :wink:
Why do I get the feeling you're channeling Feddy?
"Intent" under the law is a plan of following through on an action such as a robbery or a murder where the plan can be proven in court.
Having a beer, dicking around with friends and getting in a wreck falls under Class D felony, because there was no motive, or intent, were they able to prove intent, he would have been charged with 1st degree murder.

Drop this Darth, my patience are wearing thin where ignorance is concerned, stupid is a liberal trait, let them own it.
Title: Re: Pissing Off The Libs and ACLU
Post by: hfishjr81 on November 23, 2012, 07:45:56 AM
Quote from: Solar on November 23, 2012, 06:27:19 AM
Drop this Darth, my patience are wearing thin where ignorance is concerned, stupid is a liberal trait, let them own it.


The way you talk about Liberals borders on hate speech, which stems from emotion, and we know your thoughts on emotional debate.
But what's really weird is the fact that you bypass anything that proves you wrong. It's like you're that guy that grabs his ball and walks home when someone scores on him. Or, more likely,  calls "foul" and doesn't count the score. It would be funny if it weren't so sad. Not to mention the fact that people like you on all sides is whats wrong with this nation, Solar. People that cant stand one side or the other so much that they block much of the good moderate possibilities.   

You should try to lay down your anger toward Libs, they're just people, they don't own "stupid" , or wrong for that matter, humanity does. And, IMO, we need to understand that if we're ever to really move forward.  For now though, until you decide to change, Your emotionally charged detachment from others will stay a microcosm of the GOP, and for those reasons , among others,  will be why they'll keep losing the presidency, no mater the supposed "muslim, commie, marxist" that runs against.    :thumbdown:
Title: Re: Pissing Off The Libs and ACLU
Post by: Solar on November 23, 2012, 09:14:18 AM
Quote from: hfishjr81 on November 23, 2012, 07:45:56 AM

The way you talk about Liberals borders on hate speech, which stems from emotion, and we know your thoughts on emotional debate.
But what's really weird is the fact that you bypass anything that proves you wrong. It's like you're that guy that grabs his ball and walks home when someone scores on him. Or, more likely,  calls "foul" and doesn't count the score. It would be funny if it weren't so sad. Not to mention the fact that people like you on all sides is whats wrong with this nation, Solar. People that cant stand one side or the other so much that they block much of the good moderate possibilities.   

You should try to lay down your anger toward Libs, they're just people, they don't own "stupid" , or wrong for that matter, humanity does. And, IMO, we need to understand that if we're ever to really move forward.  For now though, until you decide to change, Your emotionally charged detachment from others will stay a microcosm of the GOP, and for those reasons , among others,  will be why they'll keep losing the presidency, no mater the supposed "muslim, commie, marxist" that runs against.    :thumbdown:
I'll let this be an example as proof of my point.
Title: Re: Pissing Off The Libs and ACLU
Post by: Darth Fife on November 23, 2012, 09:07:37 PM
Quote from: Solar on November 23, 2012, 06:27:19 AM
Which is also why there are classifications of the charge, in this case, a class D felony.
Why do I get the feeling you're channeling Feddy?
"Intent" under the law is a plan of following through on an action such as a robbery or a murder where the plan can be proven in court.
Having a beer, dicking around with friends and getting in a wreck falls under Class D felony, because there was no motive, or intent, were they able to prove intent, he would have been charged with 1st degree murder.

Drop this Darth, my patience are wearing thin where ignorance is concerned, stupid is a liberal trait, let them own it.

Trust me, I'm not channeling anyone. However, I may not be expressing myself clearly.

I'm not saying there was intent to have his friend die in an accident. I'm not saying there was even intent to have an accident.

The intent come with the under age drinking. Unless someone spikes the punch at a party, you don't accidently drink when you are under age. Drinking under age (whether or not you are technically "under the influence" is a crime).

He committed a crime (under age drinking) + negligent operation of a motor vehicle which resulted in a death (which may have been cause by his under age drinking, even though he wasn't "DUI") = Vehicular Manslaughter.

Am I wrong?

Regardless, I do agree we are wandering off into the weeds on this one. The main point is that sentencing someone to attend church for 10 years - for any "crime" is just B.S. IMHO.


Title: Re: Pissing Off The Libs and ACLU
Post by: hfishjr81 on November 23, 2012, 10:03:39 PM
Quote from: Solar on November 23, 2012, 09:14:18 AM
I'll let this be an example as proof of my point.


And I'll let you're obvious inability to be civil stand on its own as proof to mine.
Title: Re: Pissing Off The Libs and ACLU
Post by: Cryptic Bert on November 23, 2012, 11:36:46 PM
How close are we to a trifecta?
Title: Re: Pissing Off The Libs and ACLU
Post by: Solar on November 24, 2012, 06:32:47 AM
Quote from: hfishjr81 on November 23, 2012, 10:03:39 PM

And I'll let you're obvious inability to be civil stand on its own as proof to mine.
Yes.....
And I'll leave this representative post of grammatical abuse by the undereducated per my defense. :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Pissing Off The Libs and ACLU
Post by: hfishjr81 on November 24, 2012, 07:58:35 AM
Quote from: Solar on November 24, 2012, 06:32:47 AM
Yes.....
And I'll leave this representative post of grammatical abuse by the undereducated per my defense. :rolleyes:



:thumbup: