Our nation values competition and the idea of it in addition to other values such as freedom, hard work,etc.   Implied in competition is the idea that there will be winners and losers.   A winner is someone who is able to succeed.   Success will be constrained to success in the United States of America or the typical day to day life even though there are other ways of living and succeeding in other cultures.      Two people asked me very similar questions.  One, whom is a relative of mine, is a devout socialist and the other, Solar, came from his board, conservativepoliticalforum.com whom is a devout conservative.

Restricting the concept of success to success in the USA and when thought through has multiple levels.   What this entails is that there are different levels of success which implies that there are different levels of winning.    In order to climb up the different levels one has to be able to have desire, ability, resources and time.

The zeroth level of success is depending upon others for one's livelihood.   This is not success and winning at all.   If not for others, one can be in poverty conditions including starving in the streets.

The first level of success is being able to afford the cost of day to day living that includes but not limited to groceries, water, electricity, heating, mortgage, rent.

The second level includes the first level but in addition to the first level one is able to afford  saving for maintenance of one's mode of transportation, one's place of dwelling and medical check ups or other non-emergencies.

The third level includes the second level but in addition to the second level one is able to save up for medical emergencies.

The fourth level includes the third but one is able to save up for investment for the distant future including but not limited to one's own retirement.

The fifth level includes the fourth but this includes affording to go on vacation and to splurge on the things that bring one enjoyment including but not limited to vacations and hobbies.

The sixth level includes the fifth level but being able to do elderly care of one's parents and possibly other family members.

The seventh level includes the sixth but having the ability to raise and afford a child and enable them to be able to do these seven levels.

The eighth level includes the seventh level but it includes enabling and helping others to achieve these levels as well

The ninth level includes the eighth but in addition it is enabling one's child to have the ability to being able to enable and help others to achieve these levels as well.

Success is multifaceted.   The lower the level one is at the more easily one can slip into the zeroth level of success.  For one's own being, one has to be at least past the fourth level of success.   If one needs to take care of one's elderly parents and a child then one has to be past the seventh level.   With this, one can easily end up back at the zeroth level of success even if one is past the fourth and fifth levels of success.  With each additional level, the cost of living increases.

So, can everyone achieve and maintain these different levels of success?   We all have abilities and disabilities in an existence where resources and living space is scarce.   Can everyone get what they need and achieve these levels despite our existential and resource constraints?   If everyone treats life as a competition (which is the essence of our free enterprise capitalistic economic system) in which one has to lose out for one to win then the answer is no.   Some are going to lose no matter what moves they make, no matter how positive one's attitude is and no matter how much personal responsibility one has.

What is the level of control one has over one's life?   Can everyone be a winner?   Can everyone achieve?   Can everyone control their own destiny, their own future and take charge of their own lives?   Unfortunately, the facts do not bare this out and the answer to my questions is a resounding no.   Americans value competition and the idea of competition is that one has winners and one has losers which mean some are predestined to be losers and therefore will end up in the zeroth level.   How are we in control of our own lives?   How do we make our own life? 

Ted Nugent said "The only thing that truly holds anyone back is themselves."  How?  How is this the only thing that holds ourselves back?   How does this always hold up as absolute truth?   It is acknowledged (I acknowledge it as well) that life isn't fair, there are things beyond our control and since this is so then how does what Ted Nugent say hold up as absolute truth?  How does anyone always hold themselves back and that there aren't things that are beyond their control that holds them back from achieving any of the success levels?  What are my constraints and other people's constraints exactly?   

As an Autistic person, I find American society confusing with contradictory standards which says and promoted at the same time anyone can be what they want to be and achieve if they work hard and pull themselves by their bootstraps yet on the other hand we live in a competitive society in which life isn't fair, people don't always get what they want and need, and people can and do lose in the end no matter what they do, how hard they work and how confident and positive they really are.  How can both ideas be true at the same time and the same instance?    Can one work hard and achieve these differing levels of success or are there other factors at play?   Is working hard sufficient?  There are those who would say I would need more confidence and more of a positive attitude.   Again, is this sufficient combined with working hard?   How? 

To me, the USA is like 1984 in one sense.  People in the USA seem to take two contradictory truths and believe both at the same time.   It is believed that one can achieve success through hard work and confidence yet at the same time not everyone achieves what they want and need and life is unfair.  We're told that in order to succeed one must work hard which is true but not sufficiently true yet it is presented as though it is the golden path which from my experience it is not.  Having the correct social skills and personality is a must.   One is told to be oneself and be true to oneself yet one has to follow all of these social standards and social rules like eye contact and having a firm handshake.  It is promoted that we have freedom and freedom is a value yet we have 1000s upon 1000s upon laws and social standards that restrict what we can do and what options we have.   

I live in a society in which some people tell me there are no absolutes yet isn't their maxim an absolute?   I live in a society in which I'm told all one has to do is follow the law and one has nothing to worry about yet as stated previously there are 1000s upon 1000s of laws.   How can one know and follow every single law that exists and correctly interpret the law?  American society is confusing, confounding, contradictory and makes absolutely no sense.   It is very difficult to pin anything down which is why I am unable to succeed in it.   Unless it is obvious like committing murder, rape, child molestation, robbery, shoplifting, stealing and those types of wrongs it is not obvious to me as to what is right and what is wrong and why it is right or wrong. 

To ask one to take responsible for one's own actions especially if one has no clue as to what the correct actions are, one can't derive them and others will not explain them to me (and others) is unreasonable.   So, for me and others to be responsible for our own actions we would have to know what we did wrong, why it was wrong and what the correct way was.  Conservatives say be responsible for one's own actions.  How?  How do we do that?  What is the correct path(s) one must take to achieve and maintain these  nine levels?  What are the steps to do what is demanded?

If you cannot learn to condense your thoughts to logical lengths.... you will not find an audience.

Quote from: kroz on July 15, 2015, 08:44:05 AM
If you cannot learn to condense your thoughts to logical lengths.... you will not find an audience.

Huh!   I don't follow.   What are logical lengths?   Are you saying that I'm limited in the amount of characters, words, and/or paragraphs I can use?

If yes, what exactly are my constraints?

Quote from: cubedemon on July 15, 2015, 09:29:35 AM
Huh!   I don't follow.   What are logical lengths?   Are you saying that I'm limited in the amount of characters, words, and/or paragraphs I can use?

If yes, what exactly are my constraints?

When a reader looks at a very long post, they roll their eyes and move on.

You may need to experiment with what gets responses from others.

We live in a fast paced world.  You either grab attention with a stimulating thesis and "brief" explanation..... or you sink into oblivion.

Quote from: kroz on July 15, 2015, 09:38:18 AM
When a reader looks at a very long post, they roll their eyes and move on.

You may need to experiment with what gets responses from others.

We live in a fast paced world.  You either grab attention with a stimulating thesis and "brief" explanation..... or you sink into oblivion.

Hmmm Interesting.   This tells me a lot and explains a lot.

Quote from: cubedemon on July 15, 2015, 10:08:46 AM
Hmmm Interesting.   This tells me a lot and explains a lot.

'

Happy to be of service!! 

Quote from: cubedemon on July 15, 2015, 08:39:17 AM
Our nation values competition and the idea of it in addition to other values such as freedom, hard work,etc.   Implied in competition is the idea that there will be winners and losers.   A winner is someone who is able to succeed.   Success will be constrained to success in the United States of America or the typical day to day life even though there are other ways of living and succeeding in other cultures.      Two people asked me very similar questions.  One, whom is a relative of mine, is a devout socialist and the other, Solar, came from his board, conservativepoliticalforum.com whom is a devout conservative.

Restricting the concept of success to success in the USA and when thought through has multiple levels.   What this entails is that there are different levels of success which implies that there are different levels of winning.    In order to climb up the different levels one has to be able to have desire, ability, resources and time.

The zeroth level of success is depending upon others for one's livelihood.   This is not success and winning at all.   If not for others, one can be in poverty conditions including starving in the streets.

The first level of success is being able to afford the cost of day to day living that includes but not limited to groceries, water, electricity, heating, mortgage, rent.

The second level includes the first level but in addition to the first level one is able to afford  saving for maintenance of one's mode of transportation, one's place of dwelling and medical check ups or other non-emergencies.

The third level includes the second level but in addition to the second level one is able to save up for medical emergencies.

The fourth level includes the third but one is able to save up for investment for the distant future including but not limited to one's own retirement.

The fifth level includes the fourth but this includes affording to go on vacation and to splurge on the things that bring one enjoyment including but not limited to vacations and hobbies.

The sixth level includes the fifth level but being able to do elderly care of one's parents and possibly other family members.

The seventh level includes the sixth but having the ability to raise and afford a child and enable them to be able to do these seven levels.

The eighth level includes the seventh level but it includes enabling and helping others to achieve these levels as well

The ninth level includes the eighth but in addition it is enabling one's child to have the ability to being able to enable and help others to achieve these levels as well.

Success is multifaceted.   The lower the level one is at the more easily one can slip into the zeroth level of success.  For one's own being, one has to be at least past the fourth level of success.   If one needs to take care of one's elderly parents and a child then one has to be past the seventh level.   With this, one can easily end up back at the zeroth level of success even if one is past the fourth and fifth levels of success.  With each additional level, the cost of living increases.

So, can everyone achieve and maintain these different levels of success?   We all have abilities and disabilities in an existence where resources and living space is scarce.   Can everyone get what they need and achieve these levels despite our existential and resource constraints?   If everyone treats life as a competition (which is the essence of our free enterprise capitalistic economic system) in which one has to lose out for one to win then the answer is no.   Some are going to lose no matter what moves they make, no matter how positive one's attitude is and no matter how much personal responsibility one has.

What is the level of control one has over one's life?   Can everyone be a winner?   Can everyone achieve?   Can everyone control their own destiny, their own future and take charge of their own lives?   Unfortunately, the facts do not bare this out and the answer to my questions is a resounding no.   Americans value competition and the idea of competition is that one has winners and one has losers which mean some are predestined to be losers and therefore will end up in the zeroth level.   How are we in control of our own lives?   How do we make our own life? 

Ted Nugent said "The only thing that truly holds anyone back is themselves."  How?  How is this the only thing that holds ourselves back?   How does this always hold up as absolute truth?   It is acknowledged (I acknowledge it as well) that life isn't fair, there are things beyond our control and since this is so then how does what Ted Nugent say hold up as absolute truth?  How does anyone always hold themselves back and that there aren't things that are beyond their control that holds them back from achieving any of the success levels?  What are my constraints and other people's constraints exactly?   

As an Autistic person, I find American society confusing with contradictory standards which says and promoted at the same time anyone can be what they want to be and achieve if they work hard and pull themselves by their bootstraps yet on the other hand we live in a competitive society in which life isn't fair, people don't always get what they want and need, and people can and do lose in the end no matter what they do, how hard they work and how confident and positive they really are.  How can both ideas be true at the same time and the same instance?    Can one work hard and achieve these differing levels of success or are there other factors at play?   Is working hard sufficient?  There are those who would say I would need more confidence and more of a positive attitude.   Again, is this sufficient combined with working hard?   How? 

To me, the USA is like 1984 in one sense.  People in the USA seem to take two contradictory truths and believe both at the same time.   It is believed that one can achieve success through hard work and confidence yet at the same time not everyone achieves what they want and need and life is unfair.  We're told that in order to succeed one must work hard which is true but not sufficiently true yet it is presented as though it is the golden path which from my experience it is not.  Having the correct social skills and personality is a must.   One is told to be oneself and be true to oneself yet one has to follow all of these social standards and social rules like eye contact and having a firm handshake.  It is promoted that we have freedom and freedom is a value yet we have 1000s upon 1000s upon laws and social standards that restrict what we can do and what options we have.   

I live in a society in which some people tell me there are no absolutes yet isn't their maxim an absolute?   I live in a society in which I'm told all one has to do is follow the law and one has nothing to worry about yet as stated previously there are 1000s upon 1000s of laws.   How can one know and follow every single law that exists and correctly interpret the law?  American society is confusing, confounding, contradictory and makes absolutely no sense.   It is very difficult to pin anything down which is why I am unable to succeed in it.   Unless it is obvious like committing murder, rape, child molestation, robbery, shoplifting, stealing and those types of wrongs it is not obvious to me as to what is right and what is wrong and why it is right or wrong. 

To ask one to take responsible for one's own actions especially if one has no clue as to what the correct actions are, one can't derive them and others will not explain them to me (and others) is unreasonable.   So, for me and others to be responsible for our own actions we would have to know what we did wrong, why it was wrong and what the correct way was.  Conservatives say be responsible for one's own actions.  How?  How do we do that?  What is the correct path(s) one must take to achieve and maintain these  nine levels?  What are the steps to do what is demanded?

Let me try to answer your inquiry in many fewer words than you would use.

First, every person has different skill sets so that separates all people. Secondly, and more important, I will repeat what a mentor once told me. He said work hard, keep your nose clean and your competition will begin to eliminate themselves. That has turned out to be so true. I was a C student all through HS and college. Yet I got job offers from both my interviews after college. I made the right decision and spent 42 years with that employer.  I was in supervision and management positions for 39 of those 42 years. So being the most intelligent is not the most important. And yes, personal responsibility had a lot to do with any success I enjoyed.

The point is is, don't sell yourself short. Yes, you have a steeper hill to climb, but don't give up. I will give you one thought.

"If you think you can, you can. If you think you can't, you're right." 

QuoteFirst, every person has different skill sets so that separates all people. Secondly, and more important, I will repeat what a mentor once told me. He said work hard, keep your nose clean and your competition will begin to eliminate themselves. That has turned out to be so true.

Thing is, maybe this turned out to be true for you but my question is how has this worked out for everyone. 

QuoteI was a C student all through HS and college. Yet I got job offers from both my interviews after college. I made the right decision and spent 42 years with that employer.  I was in supervision and management positions for 39 of those 42 years. So being the most intelligent is not the most important. And yes, personal responsibility had a lot to do with any success I enjoyed.

I never said that being the most intelligent is the most important but intelligence is a factor in obtaining employment.   What I also said was it wasn't the ONLY factor.   Working hard and keeping one's nose clean(I'm assuming it means not to do anything criminal. )    may be necessary but is not sufficient.   One also has to be productive as well meaning one has to do the greatest amount in the shortest amount of time as possible.   One has to be able to have a certain amount of social skills, agility and a certain personality as well.  One may be required to take a personality tests in which the questions are open to interpretation and the structure of the test leaves room to be desired. 

I've written more right here. 

https://whyifailedinamerica1.wordpress.com/2014/10/14/american-employment/

It's not as simple as you and your mentor make it out to be.

QuoteThe point is is, don't sell yourself short. Yes, you have a steeper hill to climb, but don't give up. I will give you one thought.

*Sighs in frustration*   If I could do it then I would have done it.  So would others.  How do you figure I am selling myself short whatsoever?   

Quote"If you think you can, you can. If you think you can't, you're right."

The problem with this is it assumes attitude is my problem and my issue.   How attitude is treated today in modern American society is that it is not falsifiable.  Why can't the null hypothesis be true meaning "It is something other than my attitude that is holding me or anyone else back."   Why does attitude always have to be the first thing others go to.

If it was my attitude then how did I get on SSDI and meet their criteria easily the first time I applied, despite going to college and having the jobs I did have through no moves I made on my part.   My state is supposedly the most difficult state to obtain SSDI and the benefits that come with it?   In essence, they believe me to be at a competitive disadvantage.

I can show you where this does not hold up whatsoever.  I remember I had problems switching lanes while driving.   

Eventually, I went to Driving School to get a point reduction and for review.  It turned out to be an excellent class.  At a certain point I was ready to give up my license because I couldn't drive well and just cut it up.   I was told what to do by my instructor on how to switch lanes properly.  I asked a few questions and I was able to understand what to do.  I was able to integrate the instruction and my attitude and confidence soared. 

It wasn't my negative attitude and my lack of confidence that was the issue.  It was my lack of knowledge that was the problem and not knowing what to do about it at first.   I didn't have an attitude problem but a knowledge problem. 

So, with this it isn't my attitude that's the issue at hand.  It's my lack of knowledge and understanding that is the problem.  Because of a lack of certain key social instincts it makes me mind blind to how others think so therefore I'm blind to how certain things work.  The only way to resolve that is not an attitude adjustment but detailed instruction by others that spells certain things out that most people know or wear as a 2nd skin.   

The problem with your advice is that it is overly simplistic and doesn't take into account how complex things really are and how there are so many nuances.

The problem with simply following the law is that there are 1000s upon 1000s of laws that exist today.   How would one be able to know all of the laws and understand the subtext and context to the laws so one could keep his nose clean unless the law(s) are blatantly obvious to the person?

For one to be personal responsible for one's life and different things one would have to know what is right and wrong in all instances including but not limited to legally and socially.   There are things like murder, rape, etc that are blatantly obvious but there are things that are not so obvious.   

Quote from: cubedemon on July 16, 2015, 05:29:51 AM
Thing is, maybe this turned out to be true for you but my question is how has this worked out for everyone. 

I never said that being the most intelligent is the most important but intelligence is a factor in obtaining employment.   What I also said was it wasn't the ONLY factor.   Working hard and keeping one's nose clean(I'm assuming it means not to do anything criminal. )    may be necessary but is not sufficient.   One also has to be productive as well meaning one has to do the greatest amount in the shortest amount of time as possible.   One has to be able to have a certain amount of social skills, agility and a certain personality as well.  One may be required to take a personality tests in which the questions are open to interpretation and the structure of the test leaves room to be desired. 

I've written more right here. 

https://whyifailedinamerica1.wordpress.com/2014/10/14/american-employment/

It's not as simple as you and your mentor make it out to be.
*Sighs in frustration*   If I could do it then I would have done it.  So would others.  How do you figure I am selling myself short whatsoever?   

The problem with this is it assumes attitude is my problem and my issue.   How attitude is treated today in modern American society is that it is not falsifiable.  Why can't the null hypothesis be true meaning "It is something other than my attitude that is holding me or anyone else back."   Why does attitude always have to be the first thing others go to.

If it was my attitude then how did I get on SSDI and meet their criteria easily the first time I applied, despite going to college and having the jobs I did have through no moves I made on my part.   My state is supposedly the most difficult state to obtain SSDI and the benefits that come with it?   In essence, they believe me to be at a competitive disadvantage.

I can show you where this does not hold up whatsoever.  I remember I had problems switching lanes while driving.   

Eventually, I went to Driving School to get a point reduction and for review.  It turned out to be an excellent class.  At a certain point I was ready to give up my license because I couldn't drive well and just cut it up.   I was told what to do by my instructor on how to switch lanes properly.  I asked a few questions and I was able to understand what to do.  I was able to integrate the instruction and my attitude and confidence soared. 

It wasn't my negative attitude and my lack of confidence that was the issue.  It was my lack of knowledge that was the problem and not knowing what to do about it at first.   I didn't have an attitude problem but a knowledge problem. 

So, with this it isn't my attitude that's the issue at hand.  It's my lack of knowledge and understanding that is the problem.  Because of a lack of certain key social instincts it makes me mind blind to how others think so therefore I'm blind to how certain things work.  The only way to resolve that is not an attitude adjustment but detailed instruction by others that spells certain things out that most people know or wear as a 2nd skin.   

The problem with your advice is that it is overly simplistic and doesn't take into account how complex things really are and how there are so many nuances.

The problem with simply following the law is that there are 1000s upon 1000s of laws that exist today.   How would one be able to know all of the laws and understand the subtext and context to the laws so one could keep his nose clean unless the law(s) are blatantly obvious to the person?

For one to be personal responsible for one's life and different things one would have to know what is right and wrong in all instances including but not limited to legally and socially.   There are things like murder, rape, etc that are blatantly obvious but there are things that are not so obvious.

My friend I am tired and I am going to have to leave your pity party.

Quote from: kroz on July 15, 2015, 11:35:06 AM
Happy to be of service!! 

Good going, Kroz. The internet audience wants information in separate, easy to digest pieces. One way to achieve that is to express a complete thought, in a sentence. Then offer a brief of supporting evidence, maybe then a conclusion.  The fact is, once this little 4 x 8 text box has been filled, attention begins to fade.  Multiple thoughts can be set off with bold face or other formatting.
This advice coming from one of the more long winded and boring contributors to the forum. 
Another axiom is that if you are going to make the reader use the scroll bar, you'd better make it worth his time. Remember, we are almost 100% text based, here.

Quote from: cubedemon on July 15, 2015, 08:39:17 AM
As an Autistic person, I find American society confusing with contradictory standards which says and promoted at the same time anyone can be what they want to be and achieve if they work hard and pull themselves by their bootstraps yet on the other hand we live in a competitive society in which life isn't fair, people don't always get what they want and need, and people can and do lose in the end no matter what they do, how hard they work and how confident and positive they really are.  How can both ideas be true at the same time and the same instance?

As an autistic person, you think literally.  I'm sure that is difficult, as life is also full of generalities, not specifics, and nuance. (meanings that are intended, but not spoken). 
   

QuoteCan one work hard and achieve these differing levels of success or are there other factors at play?   Is working hard sufficient?  There are those who would say I would need more confidence and more of a positive attitude.   Again, is this sufficient combined with working hard?   How? 

Don't cut your successes short.  In spite of your limits, I find you very articulate, and analytical.  Not everyone has that.  I just don't think you've found your niche.

You need to find an analytical field where being literal is what is required.  You certainly seem to have what it takes to be successful in that.  You would probably be very good at writing too.  You already have a technical background, there should be a need for writing operational data and manuals, which I would think would be something you would be good at. 

Quote from: supsalemgr on July 16, 2015, 07:32:42 AM
My friend I am tired and I am going to have to leave your pity party.

^
^
^

Fallacy of Appeal to spite.

Quote from: Dori on July 16, 2015, 08:52:51 AM
As an autistic person, you think literally.  I'm sure that is difficult, as life is also full of generalities, not specifics, and nuance. (meanings that are intended, but not spoken). 
   
Don't cut your successes short.  In spite of your limits, I find you very articulate, and analytical.  Not everyone has that.  I just don't think you've found your niche.

You need to find an analytical field where being literal is what is required.  You certainly seem to have what it takes to be successful in that. You would probably be very good at writing too.  You already have a technical background, there should be a need for writing operational data and manuals, which I would think would be something you would be good at.

I absolutely agree. As one who actually reads those manuals, nothing pleases me more than someone that can intricately convey a concise message on the subject.

Quote from: Solar on July 16, 2015, 09:22:28 AM
I absolutely agree. As one who actually reads those manuals, nothing pleases me more than someone that can intricately convey a concise message on the subject.

China and Japan both need someone that can put our U.S. manuals for there products.   Or is it just me.