Author Topic: On the gay issue which divides our party  (Read 4345 times)

Offline kramarat

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Re: On the gay issue which divides our party
« Reply #75 on: December 13, 2012, 05:30:28 AM »
Kramarat,
Your fears for your daughter would be justified and the problem you refer to becomes even more worrisome when she starts to school.  This is my biggest fear for our children, that they become indoctrinated to values that we don't approve of.

I understand completely. Accepting the act and accepting the people, are two different issues. I've said it before on here...............homosexuality, (in our schools), should not be taught as right or wrong, good or bad.................simply an acknowledgement that it exists, and that homosexuals should not be treated with any more or less respect than anyone else. I also think that straight people have a right to not be exposed to the over the top public behavior by some in the gay community. Much like if I see a straight couple making out in public, to the point that it becmes sexual, I won't hesitate to tell them to knock it off.

I work alone, and put a good deal of thought into this yesterday. Here's what I came up with...................

Prostitution is "legal" in Nevada. Does this mean that all people must accept prostitution on a moral basis? No.

Does it mean that all boys will go to a prostitute for sex? No.

Does it mean that there is a higher incidence of of prostitute use there? Probably. But that could be attributed to people from out of state.

I'm not comparing homosexuals to prostitutes, but my point is, that if prostitution was legalized here, it would not impact my life, and we would not be teaching our children that prostitution is good, or that they should go try it. The same people that currently visit prostitutes, would continue to. Legalizing civil unions, will not spawn more homosexuals, in my opinion.

Online Solar

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Re: On the gay issue which divides our party
« Reply #76 on: December 13, 2012, 06:31:11 AM »


You misunderstand still.
No...I understand it far better than you.

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I never said anything about advocating change of the constitution.

By extension of your argument, you do.
Read carefully and try and absorb what I say.
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  I also said there were gays who do not care to change the definition of marriage, and don't care for it, and that I don't agree with gay marriage myself-but its not up to me or anyone else to dictate who can marry who. The people who want to change the definition of marriage, and by extension the constitution, are left-wing activist- who want to poke the religious right, and just don't care about the constitution in general, just like many on the right don't. If tomorrow every member of the Republican party fully supported civil unions, and states deciding the issue of marriage- the left would be shocked, some very happy- but the fringe group activist would still rage, because they want the definition changed, to again upset the religious right. They have a strong hatred for good tradition that promotes noble behavior, and values.. They are evil.

Stepping aside, or dictating?
There is a huge difference here. I have no issue if the Pubs step aside on the issue, I just don't see the need to support an action to benefit less than 1% of the Nation.

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Sarah Palin as governor, actually vetoed a bill which would have prevented same sex couples, from receiving their partner's benefits. Unfortunately there are too many Republicans like Santorum (or Republicans afraid to upset the religious right), who wouldn't acknowledge the union of a same sex couple- which he said during the primaries. Therefore a same sex couple would not be entitled to their partner's benefits and such, all because of what he believes religiously- he even didn't like the idea of states deciding on the issue.. He's wrong. This is what I'm talking about; not changing the constitution. And the Republicans who do support civil unions, and would acknowledge a union between a same sex couple- get trashed by the religious right. They get called "rinos" or "lefties", which ultimately makes the Republican party and modern conservatives, look like a political church- and its hurting the party more and more.
Really? Show me, because no one on this forum ever said such a thing.
I find that very hard to believe, because I support civil unions, just don't define it as marriage.

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And even if the gay left wing activist get what they want, in changing the definition- which I think they will, since Republicans are horrible at explaining issues. It doesn't force me to do anything different in my life. It doesn't pick my pocket, change my faith, hurt me or anyone I love, nor the country- so I don't care on that issue
.

But it does affect you, it requires an amendment to the Constitution.
 
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If you're one of those people who think god will punish America for allowing gay marriage, then you believe we are to be judged as a collective group, a nation, a church or religious group- and not as individuals.
In truth, God has nothing to do with civil unions, but on the other hand, it has everything to do with marriage from a Religious point.

Does the Fed have the right to interfere with the dictates of the First Amendment?
Using your argument, you are advocating for a Constitutional Amendment to the First.

Now do you get it?
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Offline redlom xof

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Re: On the gay issue which divides our party
« Reply #77 on: December 13, 2012, 06:59:19 AM »
Quote
Now do you get it?

No.


"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

That is saying that the government shall not infringe on people practicing their religion. But it also says that " congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion". Meaning no particular religion shall be the rule of the land and dictate what government policy is.

You claiming marriage is a religious ceremony or word doesn't concern the government.

If gays want to get get married in their own churches and call it marriage, you have no right to claim the "word". The government should treat everyone equally.

No separate and equal.

You claiming the government is infringing on your first amendment because they want gays to have the right to get married is crazy.

It's like saying Muslims should be allowed to kill their wives if they cheat on them, otherwise it would be against the first amendment.
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Online Solar

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Re: On the gay issue which divides our party
« Reply #78 on: December 13, 2012, 07:21:18 AM »
No.


"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

That is saying that the government shall not infringe on people practicing their religion. But it also says that " congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion". Meaning no particular religion shall be the rule of the land and dictate what government policy is.

You claiming marriage is a religious ceremony or word doesn't concern the government.

If gays want to get get married in their own churches and call it marriage, you have no right to claim the "word". The government should treat everyone equally.

No separate and equal.

You claiming the government is infringing on your first amendment because they want gays to have the right to get married is crazy.

It's like saying Muslims should be allowed to kill their wives if they cheat on them, otherwise it would be against the first amendment.
prohibiting the free exercise thereof
Marriage has always been an Religious practice, it is only recently that the Federal Govt got involved.
Fed dictating rules of marriage is an interference in a Religious institution.

Tell me, if you were to wed, would you go to a Federal Govt for a license, or a County/state office?

It's a states rights issue, not a Fed!
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Offline mdgiles

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Re: On the gay issue which divides our party
« Reply #79 on: December 13, 2012, 07:54:14 AM »
Quote
It's a states rights issue, not a Fed!
It shouldn't be a Federal issue, but it is; mainly because many Gay Rights activists want to use the power of the Federal Courts - and a sympathetic judge - to win them a victory they haven't been able to win from their fellow citizens. Of course, it does lead one to wonder. According to the various surveys, the media and the arts, younger citizens are becoming more "accepting" of homosexuality. So why not show some patience and simply wait for the climate to change - unless of course - like me - you believe that much of this acceptance is bogus; and has more to do with not wanting to seem "uncool" when they poll taker comes around, as opposed to any real ground swell of support. That might make you want to rush changes through, before the actual support level is revealed.

Then of course, there's that other boogieman - the 16th Amendment. With the arrival of the income tax, there is a positive advantage to being married, because the tax code favors married couples. Obviously the tax code is in favor of the production and rearing of future taxpayers, something marriage facilitates.   
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Offline Paladin

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Re: On the gay issue which divides our party
« Reply #80 on: December 13, 2012, 03:38:10 PM »
I lived in Santa Cruz for 11 years, and got to know quite a few gays and lesbians. My girlfriend at the time was in the landscaping/nursery business, and gay people were just part of the scene.

I don't think a lot of people realize that there are subcultures within the gay community. The gays that would be interested in forming long term legal relationships, tend to be typical working, normal people, in all respects. They don't seek the limelight, and just want to live their lives...........................much like most conservatives.

Unfortunately, the gay community also draws people that have other psychological issues going on. The pedophiles, sex addicts, and heavy drug users. These are the ones that make the news..................and therefore, the ones by whom others base their opinions of gays.

From what I understand from talking to gays, there isn't a choice in the matter. It's who they are. Not much different than if I was to wake up tomorrow morning and still be exactly who I am, but wrapped inside a female body. It sounds like torture.

I still have a problem with gays in the military. To place gays in units that are comprised of other people that are the natural, (for them), object of sexual desire, will cause problems. Particularly on long deployments, where it becomes necessary to forget about sex.
Here's an analogy on my feeling about gays in the military.........................
Suppose a group of men, 40-50 years old, decided to start a baby sitting network. None had done anything wrong, and all had clean background checks. They just happen to like kids.

I don't care how good their records are, there is no way in hell that I would leave my 5 year old daughter with one of those men. Does that mean I hate men? No. Could it be called prejudice? Sure it could. But the potential of abuse to my daugher, even if it's .000001 in a million, is not worth the risk.


You started off good, but then the rest of your statements took a giant nosedive, due to ignorance.

I've lived around gay people myself, (especially when I lived in Europe),  three of my best friends are gay, that would be my older brother, a man I served with in the military, and my brother's partner, who ran a 12 and a half year study on the entire issue, to which I learned some very interesting stuff.

gay men like the people I mentioned (and learned there are quite a lot of em), while they have no shame acknowledging that they are gay, meaning they do not hate themselves. They strongly detest gay culture. They find it disgusting, depressing, destructive, disrespectful, and degrading. The gays who are conservative, and do believe in god, and do hold on to noble values- get trashed all the time by the larger majority who are quite leftist. So they do not associate with them, you won't find them in gay clubs, bars, or gay pride... Unfortunately they also get a lot of crap from ignorant wankers on the right as well. While disappointing to them (and to me), they are strong- and don't go flailing about like a crybaby leftist. They keep quiet and keep to themselves.

As far as gays in the military goes... The man I served with, was a damn good soldier- and had everyone's respect. His sexuality was non existent on our minds, especially when I almost got killed, and he was one of the people pulling me to safety. Its mostly the higher ups who get their panties in the knot about gays in the military, but while I do respect their position, they don't mean much to me, because they don't go through the same things guys out in the field do, and I certainly don't care for the opinion of someone who hasn't served and flaps off at the mouth about gays in the military, or disrespects a soldier because he is gay- yet thinks of himself as a patriot- to me, they are garbage. The man I served with, also viewed us as his brothers, so the thought of any kind of sexual activity or thought, would have simply grossed him out, aside from that- anyone would have thought we were all gay, with the horseplay and jokes we'd all do lol.... He also had no problem doing his job, or any problem with his sexuality save for the fact he had to be careful to not let other morons who'd  probably want to get him kicked out, learn he was gay- by either getting a letter, phone call, or email from his partner (this was before DADT was repealed).

There are gays in the military in Europe, and gays in the Israeli military as well- and no problems. And you're not supposed to be having sex in the military or look at porn regardless of your sexuality- bigger issue with male/female, due to the possibility of pregnancy. Its highly unprofessional to be getting into that. I missed my girl a lot, as did other guys. I didn't sneak to go find a female to mess about with, nor did he seek to mess about with anyone.


The last bit about the whole daughter thing, was really sad. Child molestation has nothing to do with someone's sexuality. Its about someone who has no kind of control over their life,(regardless of sexuality)- and feels that control and power- when they are in control of a child. Some have a perverted fascination with the innocence of children- boy, girl, or both. Then some are re-enacting abuse that was put upon them at some point in their life. I wouldn't leave my child with anyone who I didn't know and trust.

Your statements is exactly what makes conservatism, and the Republican party look bad- too judgmental, ignorant, hateful even. And then conservatives are shocked and surprised elections get lost. If this attitude and mentality remains popular within the party, just get used to the reality that George Bush Jr, was the last president of the Republican party.






Offline BILLY Defiant

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Re: On the gay issue which divides our party
« Reply #81 on: December 13, 2012, 03:43:50 PM »
prohibiting the free exercise thereof
Marriage has always been an Religious practice, it is only recently that the Federal Govt got involved.
Fed dictating rules of marriage is an interference in a Religious institution.

Tell me, if you were to wed, would you go to a Federal Govt for a license, or a County/state office?

It's a states rights issue, not a Fed!



Bingo

However, gays want it to be a fed issue partly because they want to be able to marry a foreign person of the same sex and go through Immigration to get that person a green card or fiance visa.

Evil operates best when it is disguised for what it truly is.

Offline redlom xof

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Re: On the gay issue which divides our party
« Reply #82 on: December 13, 2012, 04:14:45 PM »
Quote
Bingo

However, gays want it to be a fed issue partly because they want to be able to marry a foreign person of the same sex and go through Immigration to get that person a green card or fiance visa.

ROFL ! That sounds exactly like Rush Limbaugh ...
"Christians are expected to pacify angry Muslims, Communist brats and homosexual radicals and Mexicans who convinced themselves that they own our land. That tells me the Christians are the better people among brutal and violent beasts."  Yawn - 15th May, 2013

Offline Patriot

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Re: On the gay issue which divides our party
« Reply #83 on: December 13, 2012, 04:15:40 PM »
...Your statements is exactly what makes conservatism, and the Republican party look bad- too judgmental, ignorant, hateful even. And then conservatives are shocked and surprised elections get lost. If this attitude and mentality remains popular within the party, just get used to the reality that George Bush Jr, was the last president of the Republican party.

I hope the GOP will win elections in the future, but there needs to be some changes.  I don't know that attitudes will change overnight.  You can't teach old dogs new tricks, but in the meantime, if the party can get away from the social issues and focus on fiscal conservatism, limited government, etc., that might be a winning path.  This thread discusses that:
http://conservativepoliticalforum.com/political-discussion-and-debate/future-of-the-gop-and-its-advocacy-of-social-values/

Offline taxed

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Re: On the gay issue which divides our party
« Reply #84 on: December 13, 2012, 04:19:40 PM »

You started off good, but then the rest of your statements took a giant nosedive, due to ignorance.

I've lived around gay people myself, (especially when I lived in Europe),  three of my best friends are gay, that would be my older brother, a man I served with in the military, and my brother's partner, who ran a 12 and a half year study on the entire issue, to which I learned some very interesting stuff.
I have gay family members as well, and have been around gays for my adult life.  They have been employees, friends, and business associates.

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gay men like the people I mentioned (and learned there are quite a lot of em), while they have no shame acknowledging that they are gay, meaning they do not hate themselves. They strongly detest gay culture. They find it disgusting, depressing, destructive, disrespectful, and degrading.
This is the biggest load of crap I have ever heard.  It's true on a small scale, but not the gay culture over-all.


Quote
The gays who are conservative, and do believe in god, and do hold on to noble values- get trashed all the time by the larger majority who are quite leftist. So they do not associate with them, you won't find them in gay clubs, bars, or gay pride... Unfortunately they also get a lot of crap from ignorant wankers on the right as well. While disappointing to them (and to me), they are strong- and don't go flailing about like a crybaby leftist. They keep quiet and keep to themselves.
Conservatives just don't care about gay people, until they start trying to push legislation and being gay in public.


Quote
As far as gays in the military goes... The man I served with, was a damn good soldier- and had everyone's respect. His sexuality was non existent on our minds, especially when I almost got killed, and he was one of the people pulling me to safety. Its mostly the higher ups who get their panties in the knot about gays in the military, but while I do respect their position, they don't mean much to me, because they don't go through the same things guys out in the field do, and I certainly don't care for the opinion of someone who hasn't served and flaps off at the mouth about gays in the military, or disrespects a soldier because he is gay- yet thinks of himself as a patriot- to me, they are garbage. The man I served with, also viewed us as his brothers, so the thought of any kind of sexual activity or thought, would have simply grossed him out, aside from that- anyone would have thought we were all gay, with the horseplay and jokes we'd all do lol.... He also had no problem doing his job, or any problem with his sexuality save for the fact he had to be careful to not let other morons who'd  probably want to get him kicked out, learn he was gay- by either getting a letter, phone call, or email from his partner (this was before DADT was repealed).
My uncle was a gay soldier.  Still, gays shouldn't be in the military.  You are clueless.


Quote
There are gays in the military in Europe, and gays in the Israeli military as well- and no problems. And you're not supposed to be having sex in the military or look at porn regardless of your sexuality- bigger issue with male/female, due to the possibility of pregnancy. Its highly unprofessional to be getting into that. I missed my girl a lot, as did other guys. I didn't sneak to go find a female to mess about with, nor did he seek to mess about with anyone.
Sorry, guys can't concentrate when there is a nice piece of ass in front of us.  It's called "nature".


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The last bit about the whole daughter thing, was really sad. Child molestation has nothing to do with someone's sexuality. Its about someone who has no kind of control over their life,(regardless of sexuality)- and feels that control and power- when they are in control of a child. Some have a perverted fascination with the innocence of children- boy, girl, or both. Then some are re-enacting abuse that was put upon them at some point in their life. I wouldn't leave my child with anyone who I didn't know and trust.
Are you moving goalposts now?


Quote
Your statements is exactly what makes conservatism, and the Republican party look bad- too judgmental, ignorant, hateful even. And then conservatives are shocked and surprised elections get lost. If this attitude and mentality remains popular within the party, just get used to the reality that George Bush Jr, was the last president of the Republican party.
Wrong.  It has to do with low information voters -- not a stance of the Republican party.  I don't support gay marriage, and it is a state issue.  Tell me, how am I at odds with the gay community?
"Many people want the government to protect the consumer. A much more urgent problem is to protect the consumer from the government."  -Milton Friedman

Offline taxed

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Re: On the gay issue which divides our party
« Reply #85 on: December 13, 2012, 04:20:25 PM »
ROFL ! That sounds exactly like Rush Limbaugh ...

ROFL! What you just said sounds like Rachael Maddow!
"Many people want the government to protect the consumer. A much more urgent problem is to protect the consumer from the government."  -Milton Friedman

Offline BILLY Defiant

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Re: On the gay issue which divides our party
« Reply #86 on: December 13, 2012, 04:21:33 PM »
ROFL ! That sounds exactly like Rush Limbaugh ...

If you spent any time in Thailand and saw all the American's trying to get their Thai "Lady Boy's" a fiance Visa for the States you'd probably
understand.

Billy
Evil operates best when it is disguised for what it truly is.

Offline keyboarder

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Re: On the gay issue which divides our party
« Reply #87 on: December 13, 2012, 04:31:38 PM »
This conversation/debate is 6 pages running and no closure.  The last forum I participated in ran this topic for over 500 pages with no closure unless you call the several posters that were banned forever from posting.   :ohmy:

There is, however, a civilness in this discussion that I never did witness on the other forum.  Something might get accomplished here with the obvious hurdle overcome, if it's only the position in agreeing to disagree and remaining respectful of each other's opinion.  :mellow:

I have to be watchful in what I say here to be able to continue on this forum, so i'll make it brief.  My position in this discussion is that of religious moral right so this will be my last reply on this issue.  Everyone is free to believe in whatever they want to but no one is free to dictate to another human being-anything.  That is the reason this discussion will have no meaningful closure.  When laws are cooked up and served out, it means that some will not be happy with their already full plate.

To the gay or gay supporter.  A great part of your debate is that you see no wrong in such behavior as long as it doesn't harm or influence others, take money from your pockets, and so on.  You want to be treated exactly equal, so you say.  Well, I say to you that alot of laws on the books concerning behaviors will have to be changed.  Schools will have to further indoctrinate our children to get this going for you.  Laws have already been ammended to allow domestic partners the right of survivorship.  We have churches that are supposed to preach and teach against sin that are redefining what sin is and trotting gays and lesbians out to preach their definition of Christianity.  It is as if God means nothing to some people and as He gives me breath, i'll stand with Him.  I don't appreciate being called not informed on this subject.  Fact is, I have a good handle on the subject, enough that I refuse to accept any argument that leans towards accepting the gay lifestyle as normal.  As far as being born that way, some were and some weren't.  Then, some were born predestined to be serial killers and some weren't.  We were all born in sin.  That's what being reborn is all about and we are warned about this in His word, to seek wisdom and understanding EARLY in our lives.  Everyone has not had the same advantages to learning but if you can read, you have the same opportunity as the rest of us.  Some of us had poor advantages in our early lives, predisposing us to behaviors that are not widely accepted.  But, we have all been subject to people and circumstances that could have helped us to become good people.   I do not run into any gays or their supporters that respect the freedom that I exercise in calling their lifestyle sinful.  Matter of fact and per this discussion, we are being persuaded to accept this behavior as something we wouldn't mind our children becoming in their future. 

To those not caving in to this socialist, markist, very liberal and evil behavior-Stand Fast. 

.If you want to lead the orchestra, you must turn your back to the crowd      Forbes

Offline Yawn

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Re: On the gay issue which divides our party
« Reply #88 on: December 13, 2012, 04:39:06 PM »
The Left claims that the Republican Party is not a big tent and they need to be more "inclusive" but at the same time there is one group (actually 2) that they want thrown out of the Republican "big tent."  That would be Conservatives and Christians--If you're both, you have no business being in the Republican Party according to the Left and even the Republican establishment.

Offline taxed

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Re: On the gay issue which divides our party
« Reply #89 on: December 13, 2012, 04:42:50 PM »
This conversation/debate is 6 pages running and no closure.  The last forum I participated in ran this topic for over 500 pages with no closure unless you call the several posters that were banned forever from posting.   :ohmy:

There is, however, a civilness in this discussion that I never did witness on the other forum.  Something might get accomplished here with the obvious hurdle overcome, if it's only the position in agreeing to disagree and remaining respectful of each other's opinion.  :mellow:

I have to be watchful in what I say here to be able to continue on this forum, so i'll make it brief.  My position in this discussion is that of religious moral right so this will be my last reply on this issue.  Everyone is free to believe in whatever they want to but no one is free to dictate to another human being-anything.  That is the reason this discussion will have no meaningful closure.  When laws are cooked up and served out, it means that some will not be happy with their already full plate.

To the gay or gay supporter.  A great part of your debate is that you see no wrong in such behavior as long as it doesn't harm or influence others, take money from your pockets, and so on.  You want to be treated exactly equal, so you say.  Well, I say to you that alot of laws on the books concerning behaviors will have to be changed.  Schools will have to further indoctrinate our children to get this going for you.  Laws have already been ammended to allow domestic partners the right of survivorship.  We have churches that are supposed to preach and teach against sin that are redefining what sin is and trotting gays and lesbians out to preach their definition of Christianity.  It is as if God means nothing to some people and as He gives me breath, i'll stand with Him.  I don't appreciate being called not informed on this subject.  Fact is, I have a good handle on the subject, enough that I refuse to accept any argument that leans towards accepting the gay lifestyle as normal.  As far as being born that way, some were and some weren't.  Then, some were born predestined to be serial killers and some weren't.  We were all born in sin.  That's what being reborn is all about and we are warned about this in His word, to seek wisdom and understanding EARLY in our lives.  Everyone has not had the same advantages to learning but if you can read, you have the same opportunity as the rest of us.  Some of us had poor advantages in our early lives, predisposing us to behaviors that are not widely accepted.  But, we have all been subject to people and circumstances that could have helped us to become good people.   I do not run into any gays or their supporters that respect the freedom that I exercise in calling their lifestyle sinful.  Matter of fact and per this discussion, we are being persuaded to accept this behavior as something we wouldn't mind our children becoming in their future. 

To those not caving in to this socialist, markist, very liberal and evil behavior-Stand Fast.

Not at all.  You are welcome to express any view you wish :-)
"Many people want the government to protect the consumer. A much more urgent problem is to protect the consumer from the government."  -Milton Friedman

 

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