On the gay issue which divides our party

Started by Skeptic, December 02, 2012, 04:02:10 PM

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CubaLibre

Quote from: valjean on December 10, 2012, 08:17:12 AM
I'm tired of the naiveté surrounding this gay issue. It isn't just about the government trying to redefine marriage, it's not just about people perceiving that they are being denied so called "rights" There is so much more at stake here than these simple ideas. If the government presumes to redefine marriage to include homosexual couples, this new government morality is going to be pushed in the public school systems, even if you are opposed to the gay agenda, the government will deliberately undermine the sexual morals you try to teach your kids and indoctrinate them into thinking there is no difference between two men, two women, or one man and one woman getting married.

Businesses and charities that don't believe in same sex marriage will be sued and possibly forced to close if they deny service to a gay couple because the basis of service provided is directed at recognizing a marital union that the charity or business does not feel they can morally recognize. One example is Catholic orphanages being sued because such orphanages refuse to let gay couples adopt the children in their care. Or take the example of that woman who refused to bake a cake for a gay "marriage" reception. I am of the mind that you should not be forced to perform business that conflicts with your conscience under penalty of law.

The point is here, that this issue isn't as narrow as people try to frame it, if the government redefines marriage into its own government sanctioned definition, then this change will affect more than just the gay couples seeking "the right to marry" It will affect our school system where our children will be indoctrinated from kindergarten up to see homosexual relationships and homosexual sex as no different than heterosexual relationships. Not only this, but they will be taught that if they think there is something morally wrong with the homosexual lifestyle that that means that THEY are defective, there is something wrong with THEM, that THEY need reeducation, that THEIR parents are bigots and need therapy to overcome their hatefulness. They will send kids on guilt trips for not agreeing with the majority or their teachers, and this is very very wrong. Think I'm overstating this? I don't; I remember being in grade school while the eco-crazies were drilling into our heads the importance of refusing to buy rainforest wood, (forget the fact that the refusal to do so could mean the financial ruin of some very poor people in South America) and all sorts of other left wing causes that were taught as actual education from kindergarten to HS.

This agenda to redefine marriage to include homosexual couples is not as noble and serene as the media tries to portray, it isn't just about gaining what they perceive to be their civil rights, it's about forcing society to accept the homosexual lifestyle without and distinction or qualification. They want hate speech laws that will target people for simply quoting a belief from the Bible, they want to completely crush any opposition to their agenda using legal means to do so. Anti-Bullying Laws, while I despise bullying of any sort, are going to be used to target students who merely express opposition to homosexual sex, relationships, and so on. And this isn't right, this is the government trying to spread their ethics, by using the law to target anyone who feels differently with the hope of using the law, political correctness, government education, to reshape the thought of the society. I for one do not want to go along with this, and oppose measures to redefine marriage to include homosexual couples because that is the falling domino that will be used to justify any other measure that the gay agenda wants, and as I said, this agenda is intent on eradicating opposing opinion, while using the government as a means to do so.
Yes! One million times, yes!  :thumbup:

I have been saying this for a while. This isn't about the so-called benefits of marriage, although some may genuinely believe this is the case. The bigger picture objective is to coerce Americans into approving of homosexuality, or risk ostracism by society.

CubaLibre

All things aside, the only way this issue can be realistically addressed is by getting the government out of marriage, and allowing marriage to be regulated by religious institutions.

Yawn

Quote from: CubaLibre on December 10, 2012, 08:34:15 AM
The bigger picture objective is to coerce Americans into approving of homosexuality, or risk ostracism by society.

Yes, the ultimate goal is to CRIMINALIZE your disapproval of their deathstyle.  Even say it's wrong and they'll PUT YOU IN INHUMANE "CAGES"!  CAGES I tell you, CAGES!  Oh the humanity!

kramarat

Quote from: valjean on December 10, 2012, 08:17:12 AM
I'm tired of the naiveté surrounding this gay issue. It isn't just about the government trying to redefine marriage, it's not just about people perceiving that they are being denied so called "rights" There is so much more at stake here than these simple ideas. If the government presumes to redefine marriage to include homosexual couples, this new government morality is going to be pushed in the public school systems, even if you are opposed to the gay agenda, the government will deliberately undermine the sexual morals you try to teach your kids and indoctrinate them into thinking there is no difference between two men, two women, or one man and one woman getting married.

Businesses and charities that don't believe in same sex marriage will be sued and possibly forced to close if they deny service to a gay couple because the basis of service provided is directed at recognizing a marital union that the charity or business does not feel they can morally recognize. One example is Catholic orphanages being sued because such orphanages refuse to let gay couples adopt the children in their care. Or take the example of that woman who refused to bake a cake for a gay "marriage" reception. I am of the mind that you should not be forced to perform business that conflicts with your conscience under penalty of law.

The point is here, that this issue isn't as narrow as people try to frame it, if the government redefines marriage into its own government sanctioned definition, then this change will affect more than just the gay couples seeking "the right to marry" It will affect our school system where our children will be indoctrinated from kindergarten up to see homosexual relationships and homosexual sex as no different than heterosexual relationships. Not only this, but they will be taught that if they think there is something morally wrong with the homosexual lifestyle that that means that THEY are defective, there is something wrong with THEM, that THEY need reeducation, that THEIR parents are bigots and need therapy to overcome their hatefulness. They will send kids on guilt trips for not agreeing with the majority or their teachers, and this is very very wrong. Think I'm overstating this? I don't; I remember being in grade school while the eco-crazies were drilling into our heads the importance of refusing to buy rainforest wood, (forget the fact that the refusal to do so could mean the financial ruin of some very poor people in South America) and all sorts of other left wing causes that were taught as actual education from kindergarten to HS.

This agenda to redefine marriage to include homosexual couples is not as noble and serene as the media tries to portray, it isn't just about gaining what they perceive to be their civil rights, it's about forcing society to accept the homosexual lifestyle without and distinction or qualification. They want hate speech laws that will target people for simply quoting a belief from the Bible, they want to completely crush any opposition to their agenda using legal means to do so. Anti-Bullying Laws, while I despise bullying of any sort, are going to be used to target students who merely express opposition to homosexual sex, relationships, and so on. And this isn't right, this is the government trying to spread their ethics, by using the law to target anyone who feels differently with the hope of using the law, political correctness, government education, to reshape the thought of the society. I for one do not want to go along with this, and oppose measures to redefine marriage to include homosexual couples because that is the falling domino that will be used to justify any other measure that the gay agenda wants, and as I said, this agenda is intent on eradicating opposing opinion, while using the government as a means to do so.

Totally agree with everything you said.
But. Everything you mentioned is already in force, and will continue, with or without gay marriage.

I'd prefer to keep the word "marriage" out of these relationships, but that probably won't happen either.

You have to remember, the POTUS got on national television and supported the "rights" of the GLBT community, as well as forcing the armed services to accept open homosexual behavior.

What this has accomplished, is not only to keep gay marriage in the daily headlines, even though it only applies to a tiny fraction of our population, but it has provided the left with a club, to beat mean, nasty, hateful conservatives and republicans over the head with.

Considering that the left owns the media, our kids are already being exposed to homosexuality being a good and healthy thing, and those opposing it, as mean haters. That's not going to stop.

I'm thinking that if they just get it, there will be a big moment of hoopla, and it will disappear. There will no longer be anything for them to complain about, therefore, it will no longer be daily front page news.

Yawn

QuoteI'm thinking that if they just get it, there will be a big moment of hoopla, and it will disappear. There will no longer be anything for them to complain about, therefore, it will no longer be daily front page news.

You can't just ignore these important moral issues and hope the damage will be limited.  It will not.  Christians who say it is WRONG will be targeted for HATE.  NAMBLA will take up the cause and demand THEIR rights.

The problem that no one wants to think about is that this is a SPIRITUAL issue.  It is a WAR against Western Christian culture.  You may be allowed YOUR current morality, but the world you helped create through your neglect will be a very dark place for your children.  In a WAR, whether spiritual or physical, there will only be one winner.  Soon, I can guarantee it won't be us, and the nation will not survive their "morality."

kramarat

#35
Quote from: Yawn on December 10, 2012, 10:16:59 AM
You can't just ignore these important moral issues and hope the damage will be limited.  It will not.  Christians who say it is WRONG will be targeted for HATE.  NAMBLA will take up the cause and demand THEIR rights.

The problem that no one wants to think about is that this is a SPIRITUAL issue.  It is a WAR against Western Christian culture.  You may be allowed YOUR current morality, but the world you helped create through your neglect will be a very dark place for your children.  In a WAR, whether spiritual or physical, there will only be one winner.  Soon, I can guarantee it won't be us, and the nation will not survive their "morality."

They are not going to stop. The narrative has already been established.

Have you stopped to think about the fact, that in order to prevent our kids from being exposed to homosexuality being a good and normal thing, we cannot even encourage them to join our military anymore? :scared:

Whether gay marriage is allowed or not, I'll be teaching my daughter my personal views on homosexuality, (that it's not right), while at the same time teaching her to treat gays with respect. It's naive to think that our kids won't be exposed to it, and I'm not going to be the one living in the closet to try to prevent it. It is what it is. At this point, there's no running away from it.

There's a lot of things wrong out there..................not just homosexuality. It's the parent's job to make sure our kids recognize them for what they are. They are not always illegal.

mdgiles

Quote from: valjean on December 10, 2012, 08:17:12 AM
I'm tired of the naiveté surrounding this gay issue. It isn't just about the government trying to redefine marriage, it's not just about people perceiving that they are being denied so called "rights" There is so much more at stake here than these simple ideas. If the government presumes to redefine marriage to include homosexual couples, this new government morality is going to be pushed in the public school systems, even if you are opposed to the gay agenda, the government will deliberately undermine the sexual morals you try to teach your kids and indoctrinate them into thinking there is no difference between two men, two women, or one man and one woman getting married.

Businesses and charities that don't believe in same sex marriage will be sued and possibly forced to close if they deny service to a gay couple because the basis of service provided is directed at recognizing a marital union that the charity or business does not feel they can morally recognize. One example is Catholic orphanages being sued because such orphanages refuse to let gay couples adopt the children in their care. Or take the example of that woman who refused to bake a cake for a gay "marriage" reception. I am of the mind that you should not be forced to perform business that conflicts with your conscience under penalty of law.

The point is here, that this issue isn't as narrow as people try to frame it, if the government redefines marriage into its own government sanctioned definition, then this change will affect more than just the gay couples seeking "the right to marry" It will affect our school system where our children will be indoctrinated from kindergarten up to see homosexual relationships and homosexual sex as no different than heterosexual relationships. Not only this, but they will be taught that if they think there is something morally wrong with the homosexual lifestyle that that means that THEY are defective, there is something wrong with THEM, that THEY need reeducation, that THEIR parents are bigots and need therapy to overcome their hatefulness. They will send kids on guilt trips for not agreeing with the majority or their teachers, and this is very very wrong. Think I'm overstating this? I don't; I remember being in grade school while the eco-crazies were drilling into our heads the importance of refusing to buy rainforest wood, (forget the fact that the refusal to do so could mean the financial ruin of some very poor people in South America) and all sorts of other left wing causes that were taught as actual education from kindergarten to HS.

This agenda to redefine marriage to include homosexual couples is not as noble and serene as the media tries to portray, it isn't just about gaining what they perceive to be their civil rights, it's about forcing society to accept the homosexual lifestyle without and distinction or qualification. They want hate speech laws that will target people for simply quoting a belief from the Bible, they want to completely crush any opposition to their agenda using legal means to do so. Anti-Bullying Laws, while I despise bullying of any sort, are going to be used to target students who merely express opposition to homosexual sex, relationships, and so on. And this isn't right, this is the government trying to spread their ethics, by using the law to target anyone who feels differently with the hope of using the law, political correctness, government education, to reshape the thought of the society. I for one do not want to go along with this, and oppose measures to redefine marriage to include homosexual couples because that is the falling domino that will be used to justify any other measure that the gay agenda wants, and as I said, this agenda is intent on eradicating opposing opinion, while using the government as a means to do so.
Indeed. As the minister who simply repeated what the Bible said about homosexuality, during a sermon, found out.
http://chalcedon.edu/Research/Articles/Swedish-Pastor-Faces-Jail-For-Preaching-Against-Homosexuality/
And another point. There is a dispute about whether homosexuality is inherited, or a lifestyle choice. If it is a lifestyle choice, then the drive to make homosexuality generally accepted becomes understandable. It's called recruiting.
"LIBERALS: their willful ignorance is rivaled only by their catastrophic stupidity"!

TowardLiberty

Quote from: Yawn on December 10, 2012, 09:31:15 AM
Yes, the ultimate goal is to CRIMINALIZE your disapproval of their deathstyle.  Even say it's wrong and they'll PUT YOU IN INHUMANE "CAGES"!  CAGES I tell you, CAGES!  Oh the humanity!

That is why a free society has a sound rule of law, rather than an arbitrary one.

Before we put people in cages, we best have a good reason.

Yawn

#38
Quote from: mdgiles on December 10, 2012, 02:45:08 PM
Indeed. As the minister who simply repeated what the Bible said about homosexuality, during a sermon, found out.
http://chalcedon.edu/Research/Articles/Swedish-Pastor-Faces-Jail-For-Preaching-Against-Homosexuality/
And another point. There is a dispute about whether homosexuality is inherited, or a lifestyle choice. If it is a lifestyle choice, then the drive to make homosexuality generally accepted becomes understandable. It's called recruiting.

I think it is both.  Some do seem physically and mentally different (discovered by kramarat). Others CHOOSE that way of death by their choices. Otherwise (for those who recognize the authority of the Bible), this way of death in cultures wouldn't increase. Yet they have and do.  Ellen's two "lovers" (Ann Heche and Portia de Rossi) are not/were not true lesbians. They "experimented and one left that.

Among homosexuals that claim Christianity, He still requires the same thing He requires of the heterosexual.  Sex outside of legitimate marriage is sin. The wages of sin is DEATH. Marriage has a definition.  Allowing the LIE to continue doesn't show love for the person caught up in sin (my best friend paid the ultimate price for this).

kramarat

Quote from: mdgiles on December 10, 2012, 02:45:08 PM
Indeed. As the minister who simply repeated what the Bible said about homosexuality, during a sermon, found out.
http://chalcedon.edu/Research/Articles/Swedish-Pastor-Faces-Jail-For-Preaching-Against-Homosexuality/
And another point. There is a dispute about whether homosexuality is inherited, or a lifestyle choice. If it is a lifestyle choice, then the drive to make homosexuality generally accepted becomes understandable. It's called recruiting.

Apparently Sweden, (which is held up as an example of liberal/socialist success), doesn't have a constitutional provision for freedom of religion. No thanks.

keyboarder

Quote from: Yawn on December 10, 2012, 03:46:17 PM
I think it is both.  Some do seem physically and mentally different (discovered by kramarat). Others CHOOSE that way of death by their choices. Otherwise (for those who recognize the authority of the Bible), this way of death in cultures wouldn't increase. Yet they have and do.  Ellen's two "lovers" (Ann Heche and Portia de Rossi) are not/were not true lesbians. They "experimented and one left that.

Among homosexuals that claim Christianity, He still requires the same thing He requires of the heterosexual.  Sex outside of legitimate marriage is sin. The wages of sin is DEATH. Marriage has a definition.  Allowing the LIE to continue doesn't show love for the person caught up in sin (my best friend paid the ultimate price for this).

The consequences of homosexuality are clearly stated in God's word.  Anyone who claims to be a Christian and goes against these precepts is committing transgressions.
God will be the judge but i venture to say that he will deal with the ones that try to change his laws or live differently than what his commandments direct them to do.  We have to take His laws literally, to mean what they plainly say and live accordingly.
We just can no longer do what we please as sinners, we have to actually try to live out His directions and trust that He will be there for us.  To believe in Christ is one thing, to have an actual relationship with Him is better and I question any homosexual having a loving relationship with God until he repents.
.If you want to lead the orchestra, you must turn your back to the crowd      Forbes

Darth Fife

There are two simple reasons that Liberals promote gay marriage.

First, as previously mentioned, they see it as a wedge the can use to try and divide their political opponents.

More importantly, the see it, like abortion on demand, as another means to birth control.

Libs don't talk about it much, or when they do, they don' let on to the full extent of their beliefs. They believe that the Earth is grossly over crowded. Many, like the nut job Paul Watson (of Whale Wars fame) believe that no human settlement should be larger than 35,000 people! They also believe that humans are not part of nature, but are malevolent virus upon the Earth. 

These views are more common among the Libs than one would think.

So, anything that keeps humans from breeding (homosexuals routinely refer to the rest of us as "breeders") is, in their pervert view of the world, as a good thing.


Paladin

#42
Here's how I feel about the gay issue.

Homosexuality is not a modern liberal thing, its a human thing; and the argument over it should be a constitutional one. You cannot be a champion of freedom, and call for government getting out of our lives, if you feel the government should restrict two consenting adults in love, who want to marry. The Republican party, and conservatism was never about involving itself in people's personal lives, until the 1950's- the birth of modern conservatism, and later when the Republican party got linked up with the Christian coalition, because they saw how much it helped the Democrats in their election. Now the Republican party is basically still trapped in the 50's, and looks more like a political church, that is way too judgmental-and pushes more and more away, especially younger- who may have a gay friend, or family member. They also look out of date with the modern times. Society changes, and has. People thought a certain way of the gay situation years ago, even about divorce, women working, even other races- and those things have changed, because society has changed.


Its gotten to this situation, because years ago- if two men (or two women) were in love, and together. If one got sick or hurt and was in the hospital- the other wasn't allowed to really visit the way a wife or husband could visit his loved one. If one died, benefits and such wouldn't go to the other, like it would with a husband and wife. I don't care if you're a liberal or conservative, that's not right. If you're willing to risk your life defending the country, you shouldn't have to hide and be afraid of being kicked out of the military, because of a letter, phone call, or email from your loved one- its ridiculous, and doesn't promote personal freedom- which is what this country is supposed to be about.

People don't wake up one fine morning, and decide they want to be gay- risking all sorts of ridicule (even from family), losing jobs, and or friends-and also physical harm or death. The only people who don't care about such things, are those who just enjoy sex, and don't care if its male or female.. None of which has anything to do with wanting love and companionship. Its been proven that some people are just born gay, does this mean god was sitting up in the sky, and decided to make Billy like boys? No, god has no control over how we are born. A Christian who truly understands the bible however, knows that mankind is imperfect, and so we are subject to many things that hinder our lives health-wise and emotionally. God knows this, as well as our limits-as only god knows the true heart of all who walk the earth- in other words, its no one's place to judge others so harshly. In the end we are judged as individuals, not a nation, not a church or religious group, not a collective unit, but as an individual.

I'm a Christian; but I get really annoyed when I hear politicians preach about how one should live their personal life, or tries to enforce policy that infringes upon people's personal lives-then talks about how we need government out of our lives, and how they believe in freedom.  The people who follow along with them, are sheep- who are all well and good with government ruling their lives. If the country turned into a massive socialist country, with government telling us more so how to live, the left would rejoice, and those on the right would be calling for a revolution. If we transformed into a theocracy- a Christian theocracy- those on the right would rejoice and the left, would be calling for revolution... In other words both sides are robots, and care nothing for the constitution or real freedom- only their personal beliefs, that they feel should be put upon everyone else.


I served with someone who is gay, and live a couple of doors down from a gay couple. All good people; they also aren't leftist, and they detest mainstream gay culture... Unfortunately they feel put off by the Republican party, and the rubbish that comes from then on the gay issue. They're not asking for people to change things for them, all they want is the freedom to be together, and have their relationship respected meaning- having the same rights and freedoms a regular couple would, and they just want to be left alone. I'm not the least bit bothered by them, and I come from a Christian, conservative, military family; and even my dad didn't care about who was gay- and felt it ridiculous people made such issues about it. During the primaries (which went on way too long); I remember rolling my eyes countless times, every time Rick Santorm spoke. I thought he should be running for pope, instead of president.

Sad Romney's foreign policy adviser who is extremely knowledgeable in foreign policy, and very informative- had to leave, because he felt he was being a distraction; due to the rubbish coming out from the left and the right against him- because he is gay, and shameful nobody was defending him.

If its not hurting me or anyone else I care for, or damaging the country- then I don't care. If you believe homosexuality is a sin, and gay marriage is a sin- you are very well free to believe that, and teach your children that (and hope he/she isn't gay), but do not try to force your beliefs on others, not everyone feels the same. And enough with the religion in politics, Jesus never involved himself in such things, as they are institution of man, and Jesus was on Earth promoting his father god's kingdom, not man's- and no man is holier, or nearly as perfect as Jesus, and so it is a shame to see these politicians try to also wear the hat of priest in their political world, though often don't follow it in their own personal lives.

Paladin

Quote from: Darth Fife on December 11, 2012, 02:05:11 AM
There are two simple reasons that Liberals promote gay marriage.

First, as previously mentioned, they see it as a wedge the can use to try and divide their political opponents.

More importantly, the see it, like abortion on demand, as another means to birth control.

Libs don't talk about it much, or when they do, they don' let on to the full extent of their beliefs. They believe that the Earth is grossly over crowded. Many, like the nut job Paul Watson (of Whale Wars fame) believe that no human settlement should be larger than 35,000 people! They also believe that humans are not part of nature, but are malevolent virus upon the Earth. 

These views are more common among the Libs than one would think.

So, anything that keeps humans from breeding (homosexuals routinely refer to the rest of us as "breeders") is, in their pervert view of the world, as a good thing.

Wrong.

There are liberals, and not raging liberals for that matter; who do honestly believe two connecting adults in love should be allowed to marry... I agree with this 100%. It doesn't effect me or anyone else in a negative way, and I wouldn't want someone telling me I can't marry someone I'm in love with.

Then we have the gay activist, who are always raging leftist. They don't care about the love and companionship that is apart of marriage, they only care about slapping the face of people who view marriage as a sacred thing between a man and a woman.

Then we have the people in the middle.. Believe it or not, there are a lot of gays, who don't believe in gay marriage, because they see it as emulating male/female- and they don't like that. They wish to have civil unions, which in ancient times would be called a covenant (which is what homosexual men did in the ancient world, though they still had to marry a woman and produce children). Unfortunately we have politicians like Santorum, who wouldn't even recognize that, as he mentioned during the primaries. Which means two men, consenting adults in love, in a union; wouldn't be able to receive their partner's benefits if one died, their union wouldn't be respected, meaning coming with the same rights as a traditional couple- this is wrong.

Both sides, especially Republicans; do a horrible job at talking about this issue- and it will continue to damage them in the future if they remain on dinosaur mode.

Yawn

Quote from: Paladin on December 11, 2012, 04:57:42 PM
Wrong.

There are liberals, and not raging liberals for that matter; who do honestly believe two connecting adults in love should be allowed to marry...

They ARE allowed to marry.  Rock Hudson was married to Phyllis Gates.

Ann Hecht was/is married to Coleman 'Coley' Laffoon

Beautiful Portia de Rossi was married to the dirt-bag  Mel Metcalfe who broke up her brother's marriage and ran off with his wife.  So she "turned" lesbian and plays married to Ellen Degenerate.  Homosexuals ARE free to marry. There is no one stopping them, but "marriage" HAS a definition, and it's not 2 men, or two women or a man and his dog, and not, in this culture, a man and his 7 year old "bride." That's what they hate.

Many homosexuals decide to marry for their own reasons.  The problem with modern liberals today is they demand society change the definition of "marriage" so it will include their own perversion rather than seek psychological help for their illness.

I love how liberals are so quick with the advice--"become Democrat Lite and save yourselves from extinction!"