Moving forward

Started by hailtothethief, November 07, 2012, 04:46:42 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

hailtothethief

Hey guys, this is my first post here, thought I'd give some of my humble opinions regarding where to go from here. First of all, I'm Canadian and left leaning. That being said, I do believe in fiscal responsibility and find merit in many conservative principles. Where I diverge from most established conservative parties is when they start trying to control people's actions through conservative social policy. As an outside observer into both American politics and this Site in general, I feel as though partisanship has gone absolutely overboard. If you have expect bipartisanship in congress, try exercising it in your own life. Don't assume that if someone is liberal or voted for Obama that they inherently lazy, irresponsible, or brainwashed. I find generic attacks on individuals based on their political alignment equally offensive regardless of if they are conservative or liberal. Yes, some liberals are lazy slobs on welfare, however some conservatives are racist rednecks. The problem is when you start assuming the worst of all people of the opposite group. Real progress can be made if both parties attempt to see the merit in the others beliefs. By doing so, a more nuanced understanding of issues and their solutions is very possible. All liberal principles are not simply idiotic ramblings of brainwashed childish people. All for now. Hope this didn't possible anyone off too much.

Cryptic Bert

What Conservative social policies control people?

Yawn

QuoteWhere I diverge from most established conservative parties is when they start trying to control people's actions through conservative social policy.

Are you comfortable with Leftist control of people's actions through liberal social policy?

For Liberty

Quote from: Yawn on November 07, 2012, 04:57:54 PM
Are you comfortable with Leftist control of people's actions through liberal social policy?

He said he doesnt like to way social conservatives try to control peoples actions... what are you confused about? You want to talk about some liberal stuff when he is telling you about something he dislikes about your ideology. Do you want to explain why social conservatives feel like people should act a certain way inside the confines of their homes or are you gonna deflect?

Yawn

QuoteHe said he doesnt like to way social conservatives try to control peoples actions... what are you confused about?

Read my post again.  I asked him if he was okay with liberals controlling people's lives through their liberal policies.

As a faux libertarian I doubt you see liberal control over people's lives.  That's how we know you're a liberal.

Yawn

QuoteDo you want to explain why social conservatives feel like people should act a certain way inside the confines of their homes or are you gonna deflect?

Okay, I'll debate you on this one if you can give an example.  You'll probably jump on your "right" to get high in your own home.  That seems to be your issue.

As far as I'm concerned, you can do that, and I won't break down your doors, but posession or distribution I would make illegal.

hailtothethief

I'm opposed to government getting involved with issues like gay marriage, reproductive rights, and things like the patriot act. I'm not saying I agree with liberal governments doing that either, but I don't see nearly as much of it coming from the left as from the right. Taxation is the main way that liberal governments do this, however it's important to realize that taxation, subsidies, tariffs and so on must be considered in a broad macroeconomic context. I'm not saying I agree with Obama or all of the left, but fiscal policy is more complex than simply raising or lowering taxes to please your constituents.

Cryptic Bert

Quote from: hailtothethief on November 07, 2012, 05:18:44 PM
I'm opposed to government getting involved with issues like gay marriage, reproductive rights, and things like the patriot act. I'm not saying I agree with liberal governments doing that either, but I don't see nearly as much of it coming from the left as from the right. Taxation is the main way that liberal governments do this, however it's important to realize that taxation, subsidies, tariffs and so on must be considered in a broad macroeconomic context. I'm not saying I agree with Obama or all of the left, but fiscal policy is more complex than simply raising or lowering taxes to please your constituents.

What Conservative social policies control people?

Yawn

Quote from: The Boo Man... on November 07, 2012, 05:20:24 PM
What Conservative social policies control people?

Thank you. That was my point but he tried to be condescending.

Very few conservative give a damn what you do in the privacy of your home until you violate the rights of others.

valjean




Quote from: hailtothethief on November 07, 2012, 04:46:42 PMWhere I diverge from most established conservative parties is when they start trying to control people's actions through conservative social policy. As an outside observer into both American politics and this Site in general, I feel as though partisanship has gone absolutely overboard.

I think this is one of the biggest misconceptions about conservatives. That we conservatives somehow want to control people's actions through social policy. The only social policies that conservatives generally hold that could somehow be seen as controlling are positions on abortion and gay marriage. But beyond these two issues, I fail to see any conservative social policy that is intent on control. On the other hand I can name scores of liberal social policies that do aim for social control.

But it should be noted, especially when it comes to abortion, the intentions of Conservatives here are not to control anyone, or deprive anyone of rights. I afford Liberals respect when they sincerely believe their position in regards to abortion, and I would like the same respect reciprocated to me. My view and the view of many conservatives is that personhood begins when life begins, and life begins at conception. Personhood is an inherently philosophical question just as the question of human rights are, I understand liberals operate under a different philosophy here, but I shouldn't be called a sexist woman-hater by some vitriolic leftists for wanting to protect the right to life of the unborn operating under my philosophy and conception of justice.

In regards to gay marriage, I see this as a state issue in the eyes of the civil law. And I think, in this pluralistic society comprised of many religions, cultures, and views, it would be better to keep social aspects like marriage out of codified law and leave it a personal matter that does not involve the state.

But as I stated, beyond these two issues I can't think of a single issue where conservatives seek to exercise social control. Perhaps on drug legalization, but then again, Democrats and Republicans at least party line ones do not support drug legalization. I personally do not think we should be sending people to prison for possessing or using drugs of any kind; it is a burden on that person, the tax payer, and the prison system, it helps no one unless children or dependents are being adversely affected.

But besides these issues, I find that those on the left are far more controlling on social issues. The stuff you see in the news about proposed restriction on free speech by passing anti-bullying laws, anti-hate speech laws, this stuff comes from liberals. I don't advocate bullying or hate speech, but restricting speech by law is dangerous to me. Laws that regulate the most minute aspects of our lives more often than not come from liberals; from what kind of light bulbs you can use to the size soft drink you can purchase. It's liberals who propose and pass these nanny state laws that are far more intrusive to the lives of the people. And these laws are always passed under the pretense of "public safety" but in reality they don't make anyone safer, they just make people less free.


PeterR


Quote

Moving forward


Interesting title.  At Balaclava the Light Brigade also thought it was "moving forward".

"He was born with the gift of laughter and the sense that the world was mad."

Cryptic Bert

Quote from: Yawn on November 07, 2012, 05:30:22 PM
Thank you. That was my point but he tried to be condescending.

Very few conservative give a damn what you do in the privacy of your home until you violate the rights of others.
I don't think he can answer...

Sci Fi Fan

Quote from: The Boo Man... on November 07, 2012, 04:56:03 PM
What Conservative social policies control people?

1. Restricting contraceptive use.
2. Restricting abortion.
3. Banning gay marriage, activity and adoption rights (even hospital visitation rights   :unsure: ).
4. Brainwashing teens to abstain from sex until marriage (which doesn't work, BTW).
5. Supporting the Patriot Act.
6. Supporting mandatory school prayer (I kid you not).
7. Enacting and enforcing laws based on Christian values on non-Christians.
8. Using discriminatory search practices to target Muslims.
9. Supporting traditional gender roles.
10. Using tradition to condemn change and progress.
11. Branding opponents of wars overseas as traitors who hate America (I kid you not; this has been claimed).

Yawn

1) you HAVE the right to buy contraceptives. You didn't know that?
2)  You have the "right" to grind your baby int hamburger (until it takes the first breath)
3) Gays can get married. Rock Hudson was married I believe. You can too.
4) This one just doesn't make an ounce of sense.  You can promote YOUR ideas but we cannot???
5) You have no idea where "we" stand on the Patriot act (I support it as implemented by Bush
6) I know you "kid us not"  You've been brainwashed so you do believe these things
7) Yes, we're against stealing, rape, murder etc.  Guilty as charged!
8) Obama TARGETS "Constitutionalists" as a national threat
9) We support FREEDOM.  You DEMAND that Ann Romney hold an outside job.
10) Sorry, makes no sense. I think you're grasping to get to 10
11) Blah blah blah

Sci Fi Fan

Quote from: Yawn on November 07, 2012, 07:27:51 PM
1) you HAVE the right to buy contraceptives. You didn't know that?

Thanks to progressives.  Social conservatives oppose contraceptive use to varying degrees.

Quote
2)  You have the "right" to grind your baby int hamburger (until it takes the first breath)

This is hilarious.  Apparently, that we have the right to do something...means that social conservatives don't oppose it?   :huh:

Quote
4) This one just doesn't make an ounce of sense.  You can promote YOUR ideas but we cannot???

What ideas?  I never promoted programs to force teens to have sex, did I?  So your attempt to turn the argument around on me...fails miserably.

Quote
5) You have no idea where "we" stand on the Patriot act (I support it as implemented by Bush

Then you support what has done more to endanger our liberties than all the seatbelt laws the Left has ever passed.

Quote
6) I know you "kid us not"  You've been brainwashed so you do believe these things

Read up on this.  The social conservatives of old supported mandatory school prayer.  Even now, some of them still do.

Quote
7) Yes, we're against stealing, rape, murder etc.  Guilty as charged!

No, you're also against gay marriage, marijuana use and abortion.  And I'm using you impersonally.

Quote
8) Obama TARGETS "Constitutionalists" as a national threat

That's a position, not a faith.  And Obama does not target constitutionalists as a "national threat".   :rolleyes:

Quote
9) We support FREEDOM.  You DEMAND that Ann Romney hold an outside job.

No, we demand that Ann Romney have the opportunity to seek an outside job on equal footing with an equivalently qualified male.

Or did you think writing "FREEDOM" in all caps counts as anything other than a ridiculous rhetorical appeal?

Quote
10) Sorry, makes no sense. I think you're grasping to get to 10

Oh, right.  Because conservatives never brag about their adherence to "traditional family values".  Not at all.   :rolleyes:

Quote
11) Blah blah blah

Right, like there aren't any mentions of liberals "hating America" on this board.  Wanna bet?