Quote from: Walter Josh on December 17, 2017, 02:41:44 PM
A lesson from a tale about China.
In 1893, China's Treasury earmarked funds to modernize her Imperial Navy; in response to the rapid advance of Japanese sea-power.
Empress Cixi, their ruler, instead diverted much of these funds to construct her "Boat of Ease and Purity."
The 'Marble Boat' never moved, being permanently embedded in a sandy lagoon at the Summer Palace in Beijing.
Egypt, Persia, Greece, Rome, Hapsburg Spain, Great Britain, Germany, Japan, among others, were Imperial Powers.
China is not and never was; being simply a nation w/a large population where the self-interest of whichever ruling class holds power is the one and only thing that matters.
Moral of the tale is simple:
Expecting China to trumpet our messages and warnings to the mortal threat of North Korea is a fools errand which could easily cost South Korea its existence.
P.S. I have stood on the deck and walked the infrastructure of the Marble Boat.

Funny thing about history, the players change, as, adding in the US as a superpower several times over.
Aforementioned parties now have to contend with a massive player on the field, as Hoofer pointed out, all of which are heavily dependent upon US trade. We catch a cold, they suffer pneumonia.
In other words, it's in their best interests to work with the stable entity and set the crazy one straight...

Quote from: Solar on December 17, 2017, 03:19:49 PM
Funny thing about history, the players change, as, adding in the US as a superpower several times over.
Aforementioned parties now have to contend with a massive player on the field, as Hoofer pointed out, all of which are heavily dependent upon US trade. We catch a cold, they suffer pneumonia.
In other words, it's in their best interests to work with the stable entity and set the crazy one straight...

Excellent point!   Who were the super powers in 1893?   The USA was not among them.  100 years ago, 1917 we had not come into our own in manufacturing... much has changed.

Quote from: Hoofer on December 17, 2017, 03:24:52 PM
Excellent point!   Who were the super powers in 1893?   The USA was not among them.  100 years ago, 1917 we had not come into our own in manufacturing... much has changed.

Yep, Britain Dutch and France, though Britain was beginning to do a bit of downsizing throughout the 1800s, they were still unquestionably the superpower of the day.
And all that has changed with the biggest superpower in the history of man, the US now commanding the air, sea, and ground if need be..

Quote from: Hoofer on December 17, 2017, 03:03:51 PM
Well, we just don't have too many options, do we.   China is dependent on USA as a market for their cheap, crappy goods.
China has already shown signs of cooperation, with the lowering of Tarriffs on 70 imported goods - per President Trump.

https://www.dairyherd.com/article/china-unilaterally-lowers-cheese-tariffs
China can be moved into a more cooperative spirit - and already has.... change channels on the TV, or turn it off altogether.

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On the mark observation about China and their so called goods. Bad, worse and worst is a better descriptive.
Has China changed? We'll see, so lets hope.
Huge concern is Tillerson, a conceited and pious corporate type, who believes he's another Talleyrand who understands geo-political reality because he travels the globe having salads w/assorted frauds and hustlers.
Additionally, given the performance of the State Dept. bureaucracy in the Middle East;
they should be disqualified from any say involving North Korea.
More than ever, this crisis requires hard and wise men who understand why nation-states behave as they do.
Lord Palmerston observed that great nations have neither allies nor friends; they simply have interests.
Those proximate to No. Korea must understand their interest here is survival and stuff the sanctimonious bull shit that passes for diplomacy, in our time.

Quote from: Walter Josh on December 17, 2017, 07:24:49 PM
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On the mark observation about China and their so called goods. Bad, worse and worst is a better descriptive.
Has China changed? We'll see, so lets hope.

70 Tariffs lowered, change that cannot be denied.

QuoteHuge concern is Tillerson, a conceited and pious corporate type, who believes he's another Talleyrand who understands geo-political reality because he travels the globe having salads w/assorted frauds and hustlers.

Tillerson is at HOME with these people, we know that, the only thing I care about is whether or not he can do something for America.  I have doubts.

QuoteAdditionally, given the performance of the State Dept. bureaucracy in the Middle East; they should be disqualified from any say involving North Korea.

We're still dealing with a State Dept. full of Obama holdovers - therefore, set the "bar" low, they've not succeeded at reigning in NK before, but President Trump appears to have different ideas.

QuoteMore than ever, this crisis requires hard and wise men who understand why nation-states behave as they do.
Lord Palmerston observed that great nations have neither allies nor friends; they simply have interests.
Those proximate to No. Korea must understand their interest here is survival and stuff the sanctimonious bull shit that passes for diplomacy, in our time.

Lord Flatulence observed, washing crab cakes down with a pint of Guinness will not endear your wife.
Walt, here's the rub - everyone else has FAILED with appeasement and so-called sanctions, North Korea and Iran included.  (we had Iran on the ropes and Obama bailed them out)   President Trump (Libs hate that), has met NK with tough talk of war, but also gone to China and said enough with your economic policy, if you want the USA to continue to bolster your crap economy - here's what's gonna change!  And... BTW... your dog eating friend in NK is going to go on a diet, quit feeding him.

Like I suggested, we don't have many choices.  President Trump (libs hate that), has already made more progress than prior Community Organizer... what's his face... the Bowing Buffoon. (libs also hate that).

Quote from: Hoofer on December 19, 2017, 06:11:51 AM
70 Tariffs lowered, change that cannot be denied.

Tillerson is at HOME with these people, we know that, the only thing I care about is whether or not he can do something for America.  I have doubts.

We're still dealing with a State Dept. full of Obama holdovers - therefore, set the "bar" low, they've not succeeded at reigning in NK before, but President Trump appears to have different ideas.

Lord Flatulence observed, washing crab cakes down with a pint of Guinness will not endear your wife.
Walt, here's the rub - everyone else has FAILED with appeasement and so-called sanctions, North Korea and Iran included.  (we had Iran on the ropes and Obama bailed them out)   President Trump (Libs hate that), has met NK with tough talk of war, but also gone to China and said enough with your economic policy, if you want the USA to continue to bolster your crap economy - here's what's gonna change!  And... BTW... your dog eating friend in NK is going to go on a diet, quit feeding him.

Like I suggested, we don't have many choices.  President Trump (libs hate that), has already made more progress than prior Community Organizer... what's his face... the Bowing Buffoon. (libs also hate that).

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Fair enough w/astute reflections.
As it's Christmas Season, let's hope this wish is fulfilled.