Quote from: wally on November 09, 2010, 08:07:44 AM
According to this chart, we're on tract to borrow an amount of approximately one quarter of next year's GDP!  This borrowing and spending can be stopped dead in it's tracks, since the Constitution provides that all spending bills must originate in the House of Representatives!

We need to take a page from our history books and do what we did before to bring us back inot prosperity!

" The 1960s and 1980s were periods of record sustained high growth, mainly due to the tax cuts and reforms enacted at the beginning of each decade by Kennedy and Reagan, respectively.

The JFK administration, against the advice of many economic advisers, began cutting taxes in 1962, starting with businesses. An investment tax credit encouraged investment and changes in depreciation costs lowered the cost of capital for businesses. The top corporate rate fell from 52 to 48 percent, and the top individual marginal tax rate fell from 90 to 70 percent. The empirical evidence shows that these tax cuts stimulated growth: ...

continued... http://taxesandgrowth.ncpa.org/news/do-taxes-affect-economic-growth

All well and good, Wally, but may I point out in the 60s and 80s, the world dynamics were considerably different. Joe Sixpack did not have to worry about Juan Gonzales or One Hung Low, making the same things he could make for about one twentieth the cost, exporting it to this country for peanuts, and doing the work Americans won't do at the same price because it would f**k up his standard of living. Greed my friend, and consumerism, and debt drives the engines of commerce.

Quote from: Shooterman on November 09, 2010, 08:15:42 AM
All well and good, Wally, but may I point out in the 60s and 80s, the world dynamics were considerably different. Joe Sixpack did not have to worry about Juan Gonzales or One Hung Low, making the same things he could make for about one twentieth the cost, exporting it to this country for peanuts, and doing the work Americans won't do at the same price because it would f**k up his standard of living. Greed my friend, and consumerism, and debt drives the engines of commerce.

A bit morose, my friend!  I'm still a believer in the greatness of our system of government and the both the goodness of the American peole and our ability to overcome every obstacle!  No doubt we have great problems to solve, but while some may see such problems as insurmountable obstacles, the American people have always done what I'm sure we will do again and that is we will see the opportunity in dealing with these problems and overcome every obsticle to our economic prosperity and living the American Dream!

You see, it is the American system that makes us what Reagan called "the shining city on the hill" and when we return to our basic principles given to us by the Founders of our nation, we will succeed!  Don't you BELIEVE in CHANGE???   ;)

Quote from: wally on November 09, 2010, 08:29:46 AM
A bit morose, my friend!  I'm still a believer in the greatness of our system of government and the both the goodness of the American peole and our ability to overcome every obstacle!  No doubt we have great problems to solve, but while some may see such problems as insurmountable obstacles, the American people have always done what I'm sure we will do again and that is we will see the opportunity in dealing with these problems and overcome every obsticle to our economic prosperity and living the American Dream!

You see, it is the American system that makes us what Reagan called "the shining city on the hill" and when we return to our basic principles given to us by the Founders of our nation, we will succeed!  Don't you BELIEVE in CHANGE???   ;)

I am not convinced the bulk of the public would wish for a return to the principles of the Founders.

Ah Shucks there Shooter,  be thankful for all the 'Silent Majority' that Obammy and the Democrats stirred up!  They actually got out of their houses (and retirement homes) and turned their dissatisfaction into political action...and voted!  These are the folks who know the same nation that you and I remember and are learnin their kids and grandkids a thing or two about REAL CHANGE and the power of a Democratic Republic! 

The youngsters really didn't know any better and now they're a couple of years older and reaping what they have sewn, they are begining to look to their oldsters for answers; Did you ever see it this bad, in your lifetime, Grandpa (Grandma)?  How did you guys ever straighten things out?

We need to give them HOPE THAT THERE CAN BE A REAL CHANGE THEY CAN BELIEVE IN; they already know that sloganeering they bought hook line and sinker was as empty as Obama's resume (and probably just as phony as his B'certificate- had to say it, for your sake :)))

Quote from: wally on November 09, 2010, 08:29:46 AM
A bit morose, my friend!  I'm still a believer in the greatness of our system of government and the both the goodness of the American peole and our ability to overcome every obstacle!  No doubt we have great problems to solve, but while some may see such problems as insurmountable obstacles, the American people have always done what I'm sure we will do again and that is we will see the opportunity in dealing with these problems and overcome every obsticle to our economic prosperity and living the American Dream!

You see, it is the American system that makes us what Reagan called "the shining city on the hill" and when we return to our basic principles given to us by the Founders of our nation, we will succeed!  Don't you BELIEVE in CHANGE???   ;)

Wally, I admire the fact that you have the "gung-ho, Americans can accomplish anything" attitude.  I too used to have the same attitude.  But facts and reality got in the way. 

Shooter has it right.  This is not the 1960s or the 1980s.  I've stated this many times before........ past economic history is virtually irrelevent when compared to what is going on with today's U.S. economy. 

We have never had this much national debt and budget debt.  We have never had the Federal Reserve manipulation that we have today.  We have never had the free-wheeling, anything goes attitudes that pervade Wall Street and investment bankers and other financial entities, that we have today.  We have before been dependent on other countries to buy our debt.  We have never had the international competition for our goods and services, that we have today.  Our industrial and manufacturing base has never been as weak and fractured as it is today.  We have never had 30+% of our population receiving some kind of financial aid, like we have today.  The list goes on and on and on.

Wally, I really WISH you were right.  But "life" is not nearly as simple as it used to be.

Quote from: wally on November 09, 2010, 09:31:29 AM
Ah Shucks there Shooter,  be thankful for all the 'Silent Majority' that Obammy and the Democrats stirred up!  They actually got out of their houses (and retirement homes) and turned their dissatisfaction into political action...and voted!  These are the folks who know the same nation that you and I remember and are learnin their kids and grandkids a thing or two about REAL CHANGE and the power of a Democratic Republic! 

A big old shucks right back atcha, Wally. I will believe in the change when I see the results. I'll believe when I see the Debt Clock spinning back the other way. When I see the interest rates on saving retuning better than a penny on the dollar. I'll believe when I see people in Foggy Bottom acting like grown ups and not playing gotcha every day. I'll believe when the pigs start flying south for the winter

QuoteThe youngsters really didn't know any better and now they're a couple of years older and reaping what they have sewn, they are begining to look to their oldsters for answers; Did you ever see it this bad, in your lifetime, Grandpa (Grandma)?  How did you guys ever straighten things out?

We went to war. We put seventeen million men in uniform. We stood in lines to get a monthly allotment of flour, sugar, butter. We cerainly did not go to the Mall and hang out. We saved newspapers, old rags, scrap metal and turned it in to be recycled into useful war effort products. We didn't buy a new car every 2 or 3 years- there were no new cars. We built ships, planes, tanks, jeeps ( not the Chrysler POS we call jeeps today, but Willys Jeeps. We did it with our technology, the latent skills of our Rosie Riveters, the men that were too old or too 4F for service duty. The shipyards and factories ran full time, 24/7/365. After the war we rebuilt a grateful world. Now the world couldn't give a good f**k less. We were still a young vibrant society and the only economy. Now? We're an old economy that has given away it edge in technology and building things, but boy oh boy, can we ever buy the latest gizmos and widgits and gaskets, transported in on ships bigger than an aircraft carrier. Yes Siree, we's the cats meow.

QuoteWe need to give them HOPE THAT THERE CAN BE A REAL CHANGE THEY CAN BELIEVE IN; they already know that sloganeering they bought hook line and sinker was as empty as Obama's resume (and probably just as phony as his B'certificate- had to say it, for your sake :)))

Simply put, the best we can about hope for, with out a complete turnaround in our thinking, is our grandchildchildren don't dig us up and crap in our coffins.

Is that dooming and glooming? if so, so freaking be it.

BTW, our kids and grandkids are exactly what we've made of them.

Quote from: taxed on November 08, 2010, 04:27:29 PM
hahahaha

It will feel better than what Bernake did to us the other day.

Yes, please explain why the Feds are buying $6 billion in Treasury Bonds? Even the European countries are scratching their heads

Quote from: Book_Worm on November 09, 2010, 10:48:56 AM
Yes, please explain why the Feds are buying $6 billion in Treasury Bonds? Even the European countries are scratching their heads

That's 600 Billion, not 6 billion.

Quote from: arpad on November 09, 2010, 05:59:51 AM


If, for instance, you'd had the brilliant foresight to buy gold in January of 1980, to prepare for the hyperinflation that never came, you would have waited until You ought to tell the precious metals sellers because they're paying Glenn Beck, Micheal Medved, Dennis Prager, Rush Limbaugh and Dennis Mill at least to relentlessly flog gold. I wonder, do you think Beck, Medved, Prager, Limbaugh and Miller demand to be paid in gold?

Funny you should mention 1980 when another Idiot was the president and totally Fkd up the US economy over his eccomoic and energy policies.

Remember that the American public technically WAS NOT ALLOWED TO OWN GOLD, RR overturned that stupid law and allowed Americans to own gold again and sold off some stores to the public to pay off the Nat'l debt. You can still go to the bank and buy american eagles and silver rounds, you don't even need a commerical to do it...ain't capitalism great???

I would imagine that Beck, Limbaugh and quite a few others make more than enough funny paper money to buy vast stores of gold and silver...after all... free market and all...until Obamao decides we can't own gold and silver again.


Billy

Quote from: Shooterman on November 09, 2010, 06:49:09 AM
Of course I don't listen to or watch those fellows, so I really don't know what they push or don't push. The fact is, of course, the gold selling companies PAY[/] those galoots to advertise for them. It's a payday.

The issue isn't what you listen to but what the National Inflation Association says and whether they're worth listening to or whether they're nothing but paid shills. Seawolf, before erupting like Mt. Vesuvius, seemed to believe the National Inflation Association had something valuable to say although from his reaction it seems more like he didn't want to hear any dissent. It's not an uncommon reaction among gold bugs. Doubts about gold are treated as evidence of stupidity or mental illness. Like I've already written in response to Seawolf's diatribe, that's usually evidence of a weak position with which you've fallen in love.

Quote
You obviously like nice crinkly paper. I prefer the shiny stuff that will still be the shiny stuff a thousand years from now. To each his own.

Just out of curiosity, why would you care that gold will be shiny a thousand years from now? Are you planning to live that long or does it just make you feel good?

Quote
Just maybe 14% or so and a misery index north of 20 in the very early 80s is not hyperinflation to you. I lived through it and it wasn't particularly fun, but I'm kinda funny like that. What you are not considering is the debt load was one hell of a lot less then. Debt, unless defaulted on, must be paid. We certainly can't pay our current debt load regardless of how many little green buckaroos your Nice Government Men print. Maybe you prefer passing it on to your Grandkids, or even far future unborn progeny. I, personally, consider that immoral.

What I am considering is that gold's proven to be a pretty shitty investment for, well, ever.

You feel free to provide historical references that prove otherwise but the little example Glenn Beck's apparently been touting that shows the value of gold as an investment made me burst out laughing. I believe someone posted it over on LNF but in 1850 a $20 gold piece would buy two men's suits. Here it is a hundred and sixty years later and that $20 gold piece will still buy two men's suits.

What's funny about that is that if the same $20 gold piece had been invested in extremely conservative investments not only could you have bought two men's suits with the proceeds after the same one hundred and sixty years but you could probably buy a private jet to have them delivered to your villa on the Riviera all courtesy of the original $20 gold piece and the wondrous power of compound interest.

   heard on fox earlier that other fed members other than bernake of course are questioning the wisdom of this dumping....can you imagine when food goes up as much as they indicate it is and everything else...dear lord too many people are doing bad as it is

Quote from: arpad on November 09, 2010, 05:43:04 PM
What I am considering is that gold's proven to be a pretty shitty investment for, well, ever.

You feel free to provide historical references that prove otherwise but the little example Glenn Beck's apparently been touting that shows the value of gold as an investment made me burst out laughing. I believe someone posted it over on LNF but in 1850 a $20 gold piece would buy two men's suits. Here it is a hundred and sixty years later and that $20 gold piece will still buy two men's suits.

What's funny about that is that if the same $20 gold piece had been invested in extremely conservative investments not only could you have bought two men's suits with the proceeds after the same one hundred and sixty years but you could probably buy a private jet to have them delivered to your villa on the Riviera all courtesy of the original $20 gold piece and the wondrous power of compound interest.[/b]

You just proved that gold is INFLATION-PROOF, Arpad.  We all know that was not your intent, but you dug yourself a REALLY deep hole and fell in it.  I don't see anybody throwing a rope to you.

Now, if you can prove to everybody in here that the cost of two men's suits in U.S. PAPER currency in 1933 is the same as the cost of two men's suits in U.S. paper currency in 2010, then you can redeem yourself.

Tick, tick, tick....................................so how are things going in that HOLE, Arpad?

Quote from: AmericanFlyer on November 09, 2010, 07:04:31 PM
You just proved that gold is INFLATION-PROOF, Arpad.  We all know that was not your intent, but you dug yourself a REALLY deep hole and fell in it.  I don't see anybody throwing a rope to you.

Now, if you can prove to everybody in here that the cost of two men's suits in U.S. PAPER currency in 1933 is the same as the cost of two men's suits in U.S. paper currency in 2010, then you can redeem yourself.

Tick, tick, tick....................................so how are things going in that HOLE, Arpad?

You really are kind of a dope, aren't you? Yeah, I think so.

To recap, no one's seen fit to even try to explain why the goofily-name American Inflation Association is worth giving a damn about. But having any doubt about the unguestionable truth that the American Inflation Association extrudes is cause for unimaginative curses and insults.

As to the whole litany about gold, thanks but I've been there and all your huffing and puffing doesn't change the fact that gold's been a pretty lousy investment for a long time although that hasn't stopped the faithful from more or less continually predicting the end of civilization as we know it as the reason for buying gold. After a couple of decades of listening to "Mad Max" scenarios I had to come to the conclusion that while the world wasn't coming to an end the gold bugs sure sounded as if they wished it would.

It's impossible to have much regard for people who are looking forward to the end of the world to validate their views.