My Issues with Personal Responsibility Advocates

Started by cubedemon, June 22, 2015, 11:48:52 PM

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cubedemon

I have issues with personal responsibility advocates and personal responsibility as well. Before I go into my issues with them I would like to state a couple of things they're spot on about and they are the self-esteem movement and a number of children, teens and young adults being narcissistic today.   What personal responsibility is a reaction to an excess of these things.  Now, these are the issues I take with them.  These issues can overlap with each other as well.

They believe in the philosophy of reductionism meaning they oversimplify everything.   Everything is reduced down to what they call common sense.   When one oversimplifies and reduces the complexity of a problem one can distort the problem.

Examples:

For example, they talk about working hard over and over again and one has to work hard to succeed. This does have truth to it I have issues with this.   What they fail to state is that there are other requirements one has to meet in order to succeed as well.

Another thing, they never define what working hard is and what work actually means.
Another classic example is they will say one has to start at the bottom which implies that there is hierarchy but they never give the hierarchal structure and never define where the bottom is at.

A fourth example is when they state "Today's youth have unrealistic expectations of life and the workplace." The issue I have is they never define what the specific expectations one should have of life and of the workplace.
Fifth, they'll state things that life is not fair but never define what life and fairness even means. They will complain about everyone getting trophies and how this doesn't prepare kids for the real world.   Isn't this a form of unfairness though?   Because they oversimplify and follow the philosophy of reductionism to what I think is to an extreme, they miss certain contradictions and inconsistencies to what they believe and say?  If we are to accept that life is not fair then why do we not apply it to all cases across the board?

Finally, we have an example of a teacher handing out a McDonald's application to a student who failed his math test. The prevailing assumption is that the student is slacking and/or goofing off and is not trying.   The student may be trying his or her hardest but is still not getting the material.  It could be that the person has dyscalculia or some other mathematics disorder and yes these disorders are real.   Another thing, just because someone says a particular statement and it is true, it doesn't mean the inverse of it is true as well.

The prevailing notion is if one goofs off in one's classes and does not applies him or herself and do his or her work they will end up working at McDonalds for the rest of their life and will not be able to advance much further. Even if this is true it does not mean the inverse of this is true as well.  The inverse says that if one does his work, is well behaved and makes A's in his classes that one will have a successful life with a good paying job and/or career.  This is the prevailing notion that is accepted which is not true.   One can still have problems that prevent one from advancing far.  I knew of one person who went to college, graduated, and was very book smart.   He still ended up working at Kroger as a courtesy clerk meaning he bagged groceries for 15 years.  His social ability and social skills was very poor.    Another example of this is me.   With an exception of my senior year in high I busted my ass and made A's and B's with my parents help.  Still, with all of my effort I ended up on SSDI despite my best efforts.   Without critical thinking skills to do a critical analysis it leaves a faulty impression on the students who lack critical thinking skills that if one does as they say, does their work, and makes good grades their life will be great and successful.   Again, this is not always true.

They perceive obedience in children and teens to be #1 above all else.  Because, personal responsibility advocates oversimplify, they do not think through this.   Yes, I agree that children can and do act up and misbehave.  They can be defiant.  All of this I accept as being true.   This is one of these cases in which they need to be careful for what they wish for for it may come true.  Let's say we have a child who did as they wished and had 100% compliance and did everything you asked of them, no questions asked.  I will accept that children may not have sense or wisdom.   Now, imagine you have this child who does everything you say down to the exact letter.   Here are examples of where this can go wrong.

First, we of course have the Hitler Youth. They did everything their superiors told them to do without question.   If they were told to beat someone up, they did.   What were the results of this?  The results were the genocide of millions of people and the defense various officials gave was that they followed orders.   The Nuremberg officials didn't buy that as a defense.   What this teaches is that one should be obedient to those whose authority is legitimate by the letter and by its spirit.

Second, What if one's obedience to authority would lead to a dangerous and detrimental situation for one's self and those around you? For example, a child can be admonished for interrupting adults when they're speaking.   What if the child's brother was choking on something or there was a snake in the house?   What does the child do here?   Doesn't safety trump manners?

Certain Assumptions – Why Responsibility advocates are wrong when it comes to college graduates

It may be true that today's youth of both gen x and gen y are narcissists and/or have narcissistic tendencies. A number of college graduates are having problems getting a job especially in their degree.  Here was my thinking as well as their thinking.  We thought all one had to do was go to college and one could slide into one's field and get a job and career as simply passing one's classes and grade levels.    Some of the things that led us to believe this is the self-esteem movement of course that the responsibility advocates railed against.  We were told to pursue our dreams and that we could do anything we set our mind to.  If we wished hard enough we could achieve it and if we worked hard enough we could get it.  The self-esteem movement is another paper onto itself but suffice it to say personal responsibility advocates are correct on this one.

Another thing is that educators, parents and adults would say that college was necessary for one's success or at least very important. A number of us, at least I, assumed that the college degree would be sufficient which is very far from the truth.  The college degree may be one of the necessary criteria for success in a field but does not guarantee success.
Another assumption that I and others assumed is that everyone achieved their dream and anyone could achieve their dream.   The sad truth is the majority do not achieve their dreams. 

https://whyifailedinamerica1.wordpress.com/2014/07/20/childrens-dreams-and-the-facts-questions-for-parents/
Another faulty assumption that students were under was that they had a distorted view of what working hard is, what work is, what earn actually means. In addition, they had a distorted view of the workplace hierarchy, the structure of it and what the bottom means and where it is actually at and how one rises in rank in this hierarchy.  In the student's minds they believe they worked hard and graduated and earned their dream just by going to college.  They believe they earned their job in their field.

Under these prevailing assumptions it is no wonder that so many college graduates had so many issues. Even if at least some of them were narcissistic and were entitled it was neither narcissism nor their sense of entitlement that caused their issue.  They've been lambasted by responsibility advocates but in this case I do not agree that a sense of entitlement is the issue.  To understand why, one must understand what a sense of entitlement actually is.  A sense of entitlement believes one is deserving of one privilege, product, treatment and anything else without having earned it.  The college students believe they earned it fair and square so based upon the definition a sense of entitlement can't apply.
What occurred was this. Authority figures oversimplified and did a form of reductionism towards their charges.  This reductionism gave a distorted view as to how things worked in our given technological and modern day society.   It never really went into how things truthfully worked and students found out how things truthfully worked by experience which were detrimental on their psyche.   When one goes to school, obedience to the educator's dictums and directions are expected without question.   Students do misbehave of course but what is generally expected is not critical thought and questioning but absolute obedience.   

The students are conditioned  not only to the teacher's directions but to bells but to changing schedules under the same grind and doing the assignments that are expected of them making the grades parents and educators expect of them. If their grades are good enough, they go through their successive grades and some are put into gifted classes.  Others are put into special ed classes.   In addition, it consists of rote memorization of things without any analysis of given subjects.  With this being told what to do, where to go, what to read, when to read, when to eat, what to eat,  where to eat, being regimented and being controlled and expected to not only to conform to the educators but to conform to one's peer group as well.   One wonders why college graduates have and had so many problems.  They weren't taught to critically think for themselves and to question the prevailing notions and assumptions they were under and it never would've occurred to them for them to do that.

Personal Responsibility assumes omniscience and omnipotence

According to the Brookings Institute "Personal responsibility is the willingness to both accept the importance of standards that society establishes for individual behavior and to make strenuous personal efforts to live by those standards. But personal responsibility also means that when individuals fail to meet expected standards, they do not look around for some factor outside themselves to blame. Source: 

http://www.brookings.edu/research/articles/2009/07/09-responsibility-haskins

Omniscience means all knowing and to know everything and omnipotence means to be able to be all powerful. These are two qualities of the Judeo-Christian God of Abraham and Moses.   We are all human with imperfect knowledge and limited control of environment.   Even Steven Covey acknowledges this with the concepts of circle of influence and circle of concern.   The assumption is if one doesn't do well in American society including getting a job and keeping then it is assumed that one failed to meet expected standards.  If one fails to meet these expected standards then it is considered the one's own fault no matter what the circumstances are.    This presumes that one any and all of the expected standards are follow-able in all cases.

For example, plenty of personal responsibility advocates will claim that if one follows the law one has nothing to worry about. To follow the law one would have to know each and every single law and the correct interpretation to the laws.  In addition, one would have to even be able to conceive that there was a law to follow in particular cases.   We have 1000s upon 1000s of laws in the library of congress alone.  One has to look at state law, local law and ordinances, contract law, and other laws as well.  Another example is leaving early to go to work.   One can leave early to go to work and go to bed earlier and circumstances may still happen that causes one to still be late.   I can apply the college graduate example again.  From their point of view, they thought they did everything correct, thought they worked hard and they thought they were being responsible.  In order for the college graduates to have been responsible and meet the standards set down they would have had to know what the standards were and know exactly in specific detail as to how to meet them correctly.

Overall, these are the issues I have with personal responsibility advocates. Personal responsibility advocates follow a philosophy of reductionism that distorts reality.  They believe obedience to be number one above all else especially when it comes to children.   Personal responsibility advocates are dead wrong when it comes to college graduates.

Finally, what they want is perfection meaning one is expected to have omniscience and omnipotence. One would have to know every rule and every standard and make strenuous efforts to follow it no matter what and no exceptions exist to this.   Because of these things, if something occurs with a child or like the cases of the college graduates occur, no serious investigation and analysis is done.  Certain hackneyed phrases, words and one liners are rattled off with no serious analysis and thought behind them as to what they even mean.

Solar

#1
How sad, how very sad that you are incapable of answering self evident questions to life.
Sad that you need someone to explain what hard work is, but then, if you've never been hungry and had to endure manual labor simply to feed yourself for a few hours, it's understandable.

I was going to parse the shit out of this, but the more I read, the more I realized, you have led an extremely protected life, so protected, that you can't appreciate the simple things in life such as gratification for even the most rudimentary of goals.
By that, I mean working to achieve a goal, such as saving and buying your first bike and being proud of the fact that it's yours through labor, and can be displayed as a trophy, the equivalent of a native youth in the wild making his first official kill, and coming of age into manhood.

Obviously you have experienced none of this, everything has been given to you, therefore you have no way of measuring success, which begins your life of moral relativity.

By the way, I find this a fascinating topic, in that I've never seen anyone admit to not getting the basic concepts of life.
So I look forward to what you and others have to say.

No insult was intended in the least, I just tend to be blunt and cut to the chase on most subjects.

Addendum: My apologies, I hadn't read this in it's entirety, so I'll add one more point.
Yes, you were sold a Bill of goods, a faulty one at that, in essence you were lied to about college.
As a self made man, I figured out the lie of a college education, that the only true education lies with the hard sciences.
Fact is, a high school education is enough for anyone to succeed if one applies their God given skills.\
Whether it be starting out as a busboy, or janitor, anone can learn the basics of running a businessfrom starting at the bottom, learning every aspect of said business, one can easily go into busines for themselves.

I did on less than ten bucks, retired in my mid 40s. A college education would have been a detriment on so many levels.
There simply is no excuse for real world experience. There is a reason those that can, do, and those that can't, teach.
Official Trump Cult Member

#WWG1WGA

Q PATRIOT!!!

supsalemgr

Quote from: cubedemon on June 22, 2015, 11:48:52 PM
I have issues with personal responsibility advocates and personal responsibility as well. Before I go into my issues with them I would like to state a couple of things they're spot on about and they are the self-esteem movement and a number of children, teens and young adults being narcissistic today.   What personal responsibility is a reaction to an excess of these things.  Now, these are the issues I take with them.  These issues can overlap with each other as well.

They believe in the philosophy of reductionism meaning they oversimplify everything.   Everything is reduced down to what they call common sense.   When one oversimplifies and reduces the complexity of a problem one can distort the problem.

Examples:

For example, they talk about working hard over and over again and one has to work hard to succeed. This does have truth to it I have issues with this.   What they fail to state is that there are other requirements one has to meet in order to succeed as well.

Another thing, they never define what working hard is and what work actually means.
Another classic example is they will say one has to start at the bottom which implies that there is hierarchy but they never give the hierarchal structure and never define where the bottom is at.

A fourth example is when they state "Today's youth have unrealistic expectations of life and the workplace." The issue I have is they never define what the specific expectations one should have of life and of the workplace.
Fifth, they'll state things that life is not fair but never define what life and fairness even means. They will complain about everyone getting trophies and how this doesn't prepare kids for the real world.   Isn't this a form of unfairness though?   Because they oversimplify and follow the philosophy of reductionism to what I think is to an extreme, they miss certain contradictions and inconsistencies to what they believe and say?  If we are to accept that life is not fair then why do we not apply it to all cases across the board?

Finally, we have an example of a teacher handing out a McDonald's application to a student who failed his math test. The prevailing assumption is that the student is slacking and/or goofing off and is not trying.   The student may be trying his or her hardest but is still not getting the material.  It could be that the person has dyscalculia or some other mathematics disorder and yes these disorders are real.   Another thing, just because someone says a particular statement and it is true, it doesn't mean the inverse of it is true as well.

The prevailing notion is if one goofs off in one's classes and does not applies him or herself and do his or her work they will end up working at McDonalds for the rest of their life and will not be able to advance much further. Even if this is true it does not mean the inverse of this is true as well.  The inverse says that if one does his work, is well behaved and makes A's in his classes that one will have a successful life with a good paying job and/or career.  This is the prevailing notion that is accepted which is not true.   One can still have problems that prevent one from advancing far.  I knew of one person who went to college, graduated, and was very book smart.   He still ended up working at Kroger as a courtesy clerk meaning he bagged groceries for 15 years.  His social ability and social skills was very poor.    Another example of this is me.   With an exception of my senior year in high I busted my ass and made A's and B's with my parents help.  Still, with all of my effort I ended up on SSDI despite my best efforts.   Without critical thinking skills to do a critical analysis it leaves a faulty impression on the students who lack critical thinking skills that if one does as they say, does their work, and makes good grades their life will be great and successful.   Again, this is not always true.

They perceive obedience in children and teens to be #1 above all else.  Because, personal responsibility advocates oversimplify, they do not think through this.   Yes, I agree that children can and do act up and misbehave.  They can be defiant.  All of this I accept as being true.   This is one of these cases in which they need to be careful for what they wish for for it may come true.  Let's say we have a child who did as they wished and had 100% compliance and did everything you asked of them, no questions asked.  I will accept that children may not have sense or wisdom.   Now, imagine you have this child who does everything you say down to the exact letter.   Here are examples of where this can go wrong.

First, we of course have the Hitler Youth. They did everything their superiors told them to do without question.   If they were told to beat someone up, they did.   What were the results of this?  The results were the genocide of millions of people and the defense various officials gave was that they followed orders.   The Nuremberg officials didn't buy that as a defense.   What this teaches is that one should be obedient to those whose authority is legitimate by the letter and by its spirit.

Second, What if one's obedience to authority would lead to a dangerous and detrimental situation for one's self and those around you? For example, a child can be admonished for interrupting adults when they're speaking.   What if the child's brother was choking on something or there was a snake in the house?   What does the child do here?   Doesn't safety trump manners?

Certain Assumptions – Why Responsibility advocates are wrong when it comes to college graduates

It may be true that today's youth of both gen x and gen y are narcissists and/or have narcissistic tendencies. A number of college graduates are having problems getting a job especially in their degree.  Here was my thinking as well as their thinking.  We thought all one had to do was go to college and one could slide into one's field and get a job and career as simply passing one's classes and grade levels.    Some of the things that led us to believe this is the self-esteem movement of course that the responsibility advocates railed against.  We were told to pursue our dreams and that we could do anything we set our mind to.  If we wished hard enough we could achieve it and if we worked hard enough we could get it.  The self-esteem movement is another paper onto itself but suffice it to say personal responsibility advocates are correct on this one.

Another thing is that educators, parents and adults would say that college was necessary for one's success or at least very important. A number of us, at least I, assumed that the college degree would be sufficient which is very far from the truth.  The college degree may be one of the necessary criteria for success in a field but does not guarantee success.
Another assumption that I and others assumed is that everyone achieved their dream and anyone could achieve their dream.   The sad truth is the majority do not achieve their dreams. 

https://whyifailedinamerica1.wordpress.com/2014/07/20/childrens-dreams-and-the-facts-questions-for-parents/
Another faulty assumption that students were under was that they had a distorted view of what working hard is, what work is, what earn actually means. In addition, they had a distorted view of the workplace hierarchy, the structure of it and what the bottom means and where it is actually at and how one rises in rank in this hierarchy.  In the student's minds they believe they worked hard and graduated and earned their dream just by going to college.  They believe they earned their job in their field.

Under these prevailing assumptions it is no wonder that so many college graduates had so many issues. Even if at least some of them were narcissistic and were entitled it was neither narcissism nor their sense of entitlement that caused their issue.  They've been lambasted by responsibility advocates but in this case I do not agree that a sense of entitlement is the issue.  To understand why, one must understand what a sense of entitlement actually is.  A sense of entitlement believes one is deserving of one privilege, product, treatment and anything else without having earned it.  The college students believe they earned it fair and square so based upon the definition a sense of entitlement can't apply.
What occurred was this. Authority figures oversimplified and did a form of reductionism towards their charges.  This reductionism gave a distorted view as to how things worked in our given technological and modern day society.   It never really went into how things truthfully worked and students found out how things truthfully worked by experience which were detrimental on their psyche.   When one goes to school, obedience to the educator's dictums and directions are expected without question.   Students do misbehave of course but what is generally expected is not critical thought and questioning but absolute obedience.   

The students are conditioned  not only to the teacher's directions but to bells but to changing schedules under the same grind and doing the assignments that are expected of them making the grades parents and educators expect of them. If their grades are good enough, they go through their successive grades and some are put into gifted classes.  Others are put into special ed classes.   In addition, it consists of rote memorization of things without any analysis of given subjects.  With this being told what to do, where to go, what to read, when to read, when to eat, what to eat,  where to eat, being regimented and being controlled and expected to not only to conform to the educators but to conform to one's peer group as well.   One wonders why college graduates have and had so many problems.  They weren't taught to critically think for themselves and to question the prevailing notions and assumptions they were under and it never would've occurred to them for them to do that.

Personal Responsibility assumes omniscience and omnipotence

According to the Brookings Institute "Personal responsibility is the willingness to both accept the importance of standards that society establishes for individual behavior and to make strenuous personal efforts to live by those standards. But personal responsibility also means that when individuals fail to meet expected standards, they do not look around for some factor outside themselves to blame. Source: 

http://www.brookings.edu/research/articles/2009/07/09-responsibility-haskins

Omniscience means all knowing and to know everything and omnipotence means to be able to be all powerful. These are two qualities of the Judeo-Christian God of Abraham and Moses.   We are all human with imperfect knowledge and limited control of environment.   Even Steven Covey acknowledges this with the concepts of circle of influence and circle of concern.   The assumption is if one doesn't do well in American society including getting a job and keeping then it is assumed that one failed to meet expected standards.  If one fails to meet these expected standards then it is considered the one's own fault no matter what the circumstances are.    This presumes that one any and all of the expected standards are follow-able in all cases.

For example, plenty of personal responsibility advocates will claim that if one follows the law one has nothing to worry about. To follow the law one would have to know each and every single law and the correct interpretation to the laws.  In addition, one would have to even be able to conceive that there was a law to follow in particular cases.   We have 1000s upon 1000s of laws in the library of congress alone.  One has to look at state law, local law and ordinances, contract law, and other laws as well.  Another example is leaving early to go to work.   One can leave early to go to work and go to bed earlier and circumstances may still happen that causes one to still be late.   I can apply the college graduate example again.  From their point of view, they thought they did everything correct, thought they worked hard and they thought they were being responsible.  In order for the college graduates to have been responsible and meet the standards set down they would have had to know what the standards were and know exactly in specific detail as to how to meet them correctly.

Overall, these are the issues I have with personal responsibility advocates. Personal responsibility advocates follow a philosophy of reductionism that distorts reality.  They believe obedience to be number one above all else especially when it comes to children.   Personal responsibility advocates are dead wrong when it comes to college graduates.

Finally, what they want is perfection meaning one is expected to have omniscience and omnipotence. One would have to know every rule and every standard and make strenuous efforts to follow it no matter what and no exceptions exist to this.   Because of these things, if something occurs with a child or like the cases of the college graduates occur, no serious investigation and analysis is done.  Certain hackneyed phrases, words and one liners are rattled off with no serious analysis and thought behind them as to what they even mean.

It is clear from the two posts I have read from you that you do not believe individuals are capable of taking care of themselves. That is a very negative view of life. Part of your post indicated that a person doing what is right is not guaranteed all positive outcomes. That is life. However, those who do do what is right have a much better chance of positive outcomes.
"If you can't run with the big dawgs, stay on the porch!"

Solar

Quote from: supsalemgr on June 23, 2015, 04:52:24 AM
It is clear from the two posts I have read from you that you do not believe individuals are capable of taking care of themselves. That is a very negative view of life. Part of your post indicated that a person doing what is right is not guaranteed all positive outcomes. That is life. However, those who do do what is right have a much better chance of positive outcomes.
I find this extremely fascinating. He's very intelligent, yet lacks certain thought processes, basics such as critical thought, only for lack of a broad area of experience beyond what he has been taught.
He has yet to enter the real world of obstacles that lead to failure, the very building blocks of man, the experiences that challenge an individual to succeed.

I hope I don't have to literally go into explaining what success is.
Official Trump Cult Member

#WWG1WGA

Q PATRIOT!!!

cubedemon

#4
Quote from: supsalemgr on June 23, 2015, 04:52:24 AM
It is clear from the two posts I have read from you that you do not believe individuals are capable of taking care of themselves. That is a very negative view of life. Part of your post indicated that a person doing what is right is not guaranteed all positive outcomes. That is life. However, those who do do what is right have a much better chance of positive outcomes.

I don't believe or not believe this.  It is not a matter of opinion or belief.   It is fact that not everyone is capable of taking care of themselves which can be proven easily.   

For one, coma patients. 

Two, those who are in institutions or group homes. 

Three, someone I know who has both cerebral palsy and Autism.  He is wheelchair bound, nonverbal and can't even bathe or potty himself.   

Four, those with my version of Autism who doesn't think like you, doesn't understand some of the things you are and solar are talking about because it is a foreign language, is unable to learn it without others guidance, and did do manual labor with example one of mine being the result.

https://whyifailedinamerica1.wordpress.com/2015/01/09/welder/

If this doesn't prove that everyone has different levels of functionality and not everyone can pull themselves by their bootstraps.  I don't know what will prove it to your satisfaction.

Here is another example as well. 

https://whyifailedinamerica1.wordpress.com/2015/02/03/another-reason-i-am-unable-to-succeed-in-the-usa/

This even proves that counter to what others drone on about hard work, hard work may be necessary but insufficient.   One has to be productive as well.  For example,  one has to make y amount of widgets in a given unit of time x.  One has to be within a certain range of y per x.  If not, it doesn't matter how hard one works.   

What is self-evident is that working hard is open to interpretation and that it is both necessary and insufficient.  Even working hard and productivity combined together is insufficient as well.

https://whyifailedinamerica1.wordpress.com/2014/10/14/american-employment/

kroz

Quote from: cubedemon on June 24, 2015, 10:10:08 AM
I don't believe or not believe this.  It is not a matter of opinion or belief.   It is fact that not everyone is capable of taking care of themselves which can be proven easily.   

For one, coma patients. 

Two, those who are in institutions or group homes. 

Three, someone I know who has both cerebral palsy and Autism.  He is wheelchair bound, nonverbal and can't even bathe or potty himself.   

Four, those with my version of Autism who doesn't think like you, doesn't understand some of the things you are and solar are talking about because it is a foreign language, is unable to learn it without others guidance, and did do manual labor with example one of mine being the result.

https://whyifailedinamerica1.wordpress.com/2015/01/09/welder/

If this doesn't prove that everyone has different levels of functionality and not everyone can pull themselves by their bootstraps.  I don't know what will prove it to your satisfaction.

Here is another example as well. 

https://whyifailedinamerica1.wordpress.com/2015/02/03/another-reason-i-am-unable-to-succeed-in-the-usa/

This even proves that counter to what others drone on about hard work, hard work may be necessary but insufficient.   One has to be productive as well.  For example,  one has to make y amount of widgets in a given unit of time x.  One has to be within a certain range of y per x.  If not, it doesn't matter how hard one works.

hhmm... I read your blog.  It seems that you are trying to tell us to be kind because you are not the sharpest knife in the drawer.  Right?

cubedemon

#6
Quote from: kroz on June 24, 2015, 10:29:19 AM
hhmm... I read your blog.  It seems that you are trying to tell us to be kind because you are not the sharpest knife in the drawer.  Right?

If one can't expect love and kindness if one is not the sharpest knife in the drawer I think we can establish what character you and others have.    :wink:

cubedemon

Quote from: Solar on June 23, 2015, 05:13:29 AM
I find this extremely fascinating. He's very intelligent, yet lacks certain thought processes, basics such as critical thought, only for lack of a broad area of experience beyond what he has been taught.
He has yet to enter the real world of obstacles that lead to failure, the very building blocks of man, the experiences that challenge an individual to succeed.

I hope I don't have to literally go into explaining what success is.

For an Autistic person such as myself, yes you literally do.   

Solar

Quote from: cubedemon on June 24, 2015, 10:10:08 AM
I don't believe or not believe this.  It is not a matter of opinion or belief.   It is fact that not everyone is capable of taking care of themselves which can be proven easily.   

For one, coma patients. 

Two, those who are in institutions or group homes. 

Three, someone I know who has both cerebral palsy and Autism.  He is wheelchair bound, nonverbal and can't even bathe or potty himself.   

Four, those with my version of Autism who doesn't think like you, doesn't understand some of the things you are and solar are talking about because it is a foreign language, is unable to learn it without others guidance, and did do manual labor with example one of mine being the result.

https://whyifailedinamerica1.wordpress.com/2015/01/09/welder/

If this doesn't prove that everyone has different levels of functionality and not everyone can pull themselves by their bootstraps.  I don't know what will prove it to your satisfaction.

Here is another example as well. 

https://whyifailedinamerica1.wordpress.com/2015/02/03/another-reason-i-am-unable-to-succeed-in-the-usa/

This even proves that counter to what others drone on about hard work, hard work may be necessary but insufficient.   One has to be productive as well.  For example,  one has to make y amount of widgets in a given unit of time x.  One has to be within a certain range of y per x.  If not, it doesn't matter how hard one works.   

What is self-evident is that working hard is open to interpretation and that it is both necessary and insufficient.  Even working hard and productivity combined together is insufficient as well.

https://whyifailedinamerica1.wordpress.com/2014/10/14/american-employment/
Simply fascinating! And I do not mean that in an insulting way, rather intrigued.
Your autism brings an enlightening aspect to your original post, so discount what I said earlier.
I too read you post "Welder", so I'll let you in on something related that happened to me as a child.

As a kid of 7, my brother a few years older, my dad was fixing the sub-floor under the bathtub which suffered from dry-rot.
He had one of those old collapsible wooden rulers, he took a measurement, handed the ruler to my brother and said make a 3' cut.
My brother took the ruler and started out the door, my dad yelled, take the damn 2x4 with you, what the Hell is wrong with you?

OK, so my brother comes back with the ruler cut off just like dad had instructed him, (That's what I would have done as well).
Point is, as a kid, you take things literal, simply because you have no experience in the big picture.
What my dad failed to do, was hand him the board first, then the ruler, so in truth, my dad was to blame for telling my brother to literally cut the ruler and not the board.

Now that I'm an old fart, the one valuable lesson I took from this was never assume anything, be clear and concise when giving instructions.
It was a valuable lesson, one I used regularly in my own business, especially when dealing with young employees, and in some cases, this was their first job, so to some, taking orders was a foreign concept.

But for what it's worth, I never yelled at an employee or belittled them, that is the worst thing you can do, is to break an employees self esteem, creating fear and doubt with every project they are given.
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supsalemgr

Quote from: cubedemon on June 24, 2015, 10:10:08 AM
I don't believe or not believe this.  It is not a matter of opinion or belief.   It is fact that not everyone is capable of taking care of themselves which can be proven easily.   

For one, coma patients. 

Two, those who are in institutions or group homes. 

Three, someone I know who has both cerebral palsy and Autism.  He is wheelchair bound, nonverbal and can't even bathe or potty himself.   

Four, those with my version of Autism who doesn't think like you, doesn't understand some of the things you are and solar are talking about because it is a foreign language, is unable to learn it without others guidance, and did do manual labor with example one of mine being the result.

https://whyifailedinamerica1.wordpress.com/2015/01/09/welder/

If this doesn't prove that everyone has different levels of functionality and not everyone can pull themselves by their bootstraps.  I don't know what will prove it to your satisfaction.

Here is another example as well. 

https://whyifailedinamerica1.wordpress.com/2015/02/03/another-reason-i-am-unable-to-succeed-in-the-usa/

This even proves that counter to what others drone on about hard work, hard work may be necessary but insufficient.   One has to be productive as well.  For example,  one has to make y amount of widgets in a given unit of time x.  One has to be within a certain range of y per x.  If not, it doesn't matter how hard one works.   

What is self-evident is that working hard is open to interpretation and that it is both necessary and insufficient.  Even working hard and productivity combined together is insufficient as well.

https://whyifailedinamerica1.wordpress.com/2014/10/14/american-employment/

My post was in no way intended toward folks who may have some form disability. It was a comment about able bodied and minded people.
"If you can't run with the big dawgs, stay on the porch!"

Solar

Quote from: supsalemgr on June 24, 2015, 11:20:40 AM
My post was in no way intended toward folks who may have some form disability. It was a comment about able bodied and minded people.
Yeah, had he qualified his post first, that would have made all the difference.
Like someone posting, they don't understand the concept of color, only to have left out the tiny detail, that they've been blind since birth.

Details are extremely important. :biggrin:
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Dori

Quote from: Solar on June 24, 2015, 11:31:43 AM
Details are extremely important. :biggrin:

I was in the waiting room at a hospital where some of us were talking about the medical event that brought us there.  (We were not the patients)  One woman had not said anything and I asked her; "what brought you here?" and she replied: "my car".

I had to sit and think about that for awhile. 

The danger to America is not Barack Obama but the citizens capable of entrusting a man like him with the Presidency.

Solar

Quote from: Dori on June 24, 2015, 11:49:13 AM
I was in the waiting room at a hospital where some of us were talking about the medical event that brought us there.  (We were not the patients)  One woman had not said anything and I asked her; "what brought you here?" and she replied: "my car".

I had to sit and think about that for awhile.
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
I know these people...
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walkstall

A politician thinks of the next election. A statesman, of the next generation.- James Freeman Clarke

Always remember "Feelings Aren't Facts."

cubedemon

Quote from: Dori on June 24, 2015, 11:49:13 AM
I was in the waiting room at a hospital where some of us were talking about the medical event that brought us there.  (We were not the patients)  One woman had not said anything and I asked her; "what brought you here?" and she replied: "my car".

I had to sit and think about that for awhile.

Well she may have had Autism as well.  If I didn't think about the subtext, that would've been my answer as well.  I still have problems with literalism such as that.

It is one of the reasons I have problems with functioning.

If something is vague, I have issues.

Let's say I'm told to put a pot of water on the opposite side of the stove and the pot is on the (front, right) eye.  I'm looking this as I'm looking at a Cartesian plane.  Problem: which axis do I apply it to?  Is left opposite from right, back opposite from front or do I consider both axis's?  How do I apply opposite in this case since opposite is open to interpretation?