For lib's so you understand

Started by walkstall, December 21, 2012, 06:41:57 AM

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walkstall


(Lifted from petep)

QuoteThis is from a debate in Oregon...from the guy that brought us 2016. Simple analogies, but all true.

No ObamaCare
A politician thinks of the next election. A statesman, of the next generation.- James Freeman Clarke

Always remember "Feelings Aren't Facts."

thefirebrand

Ok. Let's put it this way. Say you don't have health insurance, and are not required to. If you do not have health insurance and you get injured or sick (which is an inevitability), and go to the hospital and cannot pay for your coverage, that cost to the hospital is passed on to people who DO pay their insurance in the forms of higher premiums and costs. That is the other side of redistribution.
If you want to drive a car, you need insurance so that you AND other people are protected in the event of a collision.  Everyone must be responsible for their effect on others - and that includes taking steps to manage their own healthcare costs. Isn't personal responsibility a core conservative principle? Now, because conservatives kicked the INDIVIDUAL mandate from Obamacare, small businesses are bearing the brunt of the cost which I think is a mistake.

taxed

Quote from: thefirebrand on December 21, 2012, 12:48:49 PM
Ok. Let's put it this way. Say you don't have health insurance, and are not required to.
Say, we have freedom... continue...

Quote
If you do not have health insurance and you get injured or sick (which is an inevitability), and go to the hospital and cannot pay for your coverage, that cost to the hospital is passed on to people who DO pay their insurance in the forms of higher premiums and costs.
That's why people should be responsible for their own health care.

Quote
That is the other side of redistribution.
If you want to drive a car, you need insurance so that you AND other people are protected in the event of a collision.  Everyone must be responsible for their effect on others - and that includes taking steps to manage their own healthcare costs. Isn't personal responsibility a core conservative principle? Now, because conservatives kicked the INDIVIDUAL mandate from Obamacare, small businesses are bearing the brunt of the cost which I think is a mistake.

Kicked the individual mandate?  Explain.
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Solar

Quote from: thefirebrand on December 21, 2012, 12:48:49 PM
Ok. Let's put it this way. Say you don't have health insurance, and are not required to. If you do not have health insurance and you get injured or sick (which is an inevitability), and go to the hospital and cannot pay for your coverage, that cost to the hospital is passed on to people who DO pay their insurance in the forms of higher premiums and costs. That is the other side of redistribution.
If you want to drive a car, you need insurance so that you AND other people are protected in the event of a collision.  Everyone must be responsible for their effect on others - and that includes taking steps to manage their own healthcare costs. Isn't personal responsibility a core conservative principle? Now, because conservatives kicked the INDIVIDUAL mandate from Obamacare, small businesses are bearing the brunt of the cost which I think is a mistake.
There was a time car insurance was cheap and it included uninsured motorist for a few extra bucks, and it worked out quite well.
Now insurance is mandatory and the cost is is ridiculous.

How about we go back and try it again, it worked quite well at one time, but it was greedy libs in the State of Ca that started this crap because the insurance industry lined their pockets and knew what it could do for their bottom line.
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thefirebrand

To address your first comment: Freedoms are not a blanket concept. One could argue that they should have the freedom to do anything - but we decide how to balance our freedoms so that everyone has rights. The thing that we are debating is whether this particular freedom to not have health insurance is fair to other American citizens.

Second comment: Yes, people SHOULD be responsible for their own health care. But they are not. If left to their own devices, the majority of Americans are content to not manage their own healthcare, and so it is (again) left to the government to insist that they do. For the record, I'm independent and I'm about as unhappy about the idea as you are. I don't LIKE that the government has to step in and tell people to stop being dumb, but as long as people keep being dumb it will have to continue to happen.

Third: Obamacare's individual mandate was made largely toothless in several ways. The supreme court decision that employers can pay a penalty rather than purchase healthcare for their employees, which is the cheaper option. Conservative states are also vowing to not implement Obamacare individual mandate, and in the negotiations to form the bill, religious organizations became exempt, which gives leeway to ALOT of employers to abstain. Instead of saying "kicked", I should have said "defanged". Apologies :)

JustKari

Quote from: thefirebrand on December 21, 2012, 01:34:55 PM
To address your first comment: Freedoms are not a blanket concept. One could argue that they should have the freedom to do anything - but we decide how to balance our freedoms so that everyone has rights. The thing that we are debating is whether this particular freedom to not have health insurance is fair to other American citizens.

Second comment: Yes, people SHOULD be responsible for their own health care. But they are not. If left to their own devices, the majority of Americans are content to not manage their own healthcare, and so it is (again) left to the government to insist that they do. For the record, I'm independent and I'm about as unhappy about the idea as you are. I don't LIKE that the government has to step in and tell people to stop being dumb, but as long as people keep being dumb it will have to continue to happen.

Third: Obamacare's individual mandate was made largely toothless in several ways. The supreme court decision that employers can pay a penalty rather than purchase healthcare for their employees, which is the cheaper option. Conservative states are also vowing to not implement Obamacare individual mandate, and in the negotiations to form the bill, religious organizations became exempt, which gives leeway to ALOT of employers to abstain. Instead of saying "kicked", I should have said "defanged". Apologies :)

Just because you come in without insurance does not mean you get off without paying.  I have not had medical for six of the last eight years, you go when you need to, they send you a bill, and you pay it.  Since some people are not as honest, then leave it up to the hospital/clinic to make their own financial rules, like if you don't have insurance, you must have a checking account and a payment plan must be set up before care will be given.  Whatever it is, let the hospital handle it. 
If there is a huge concern, create government run hospitals, you don't pay, they take your tax refund with a huge penalty.  Those of us that want to avoid government healthcare, could.  There are MANY better options out there, maybe if they had listened to 2/3's of the population that hate Ocare, they might have found a few good idras, but then they wouldn't be so in control, would they?

thefirebrand

Quote from: JustKari on December 21, 2012, 02:01:34 PM
Just because you come in without insurance does not mean you get off without paying.  I have not had medical for six of the last eight years, you go when you need to, they send you a bill, and you pay it.  Since some people are not as honest, then leave it up to the hospital/clinic to make their own financial rules, like if you don't have insurance, you must have a checking account and a payment plan must be set up before care will be given.  Whatever it is, let the hospital handle it. 
If there is a huge concern, create government run hospitals, you don't pay, they take your tax refund with a huge penalty.  Those of us that want to avoid government healthcare, could.  There are MANY better options out there, maybe if they had listened to 2/3's of the population that hate Ocare, they might have found a few good idras, but then they wouldn't be so in control, would they?

I understand your personal experience, but from what I gather you have not yet become seriously ill. People who become sick with cancer or some other prolonged disease can end up being billed for hundreds of thousands of dollars without health insurance, and go bankrupt because of it. The hospital does not get paid for their services, and the bill is passed on to insured people. One of the main driving factors for healthcare costs are also emergency care, which would be DRASTICALLY reduced if people had insurance and went in for preventative care.
I am confused - I thought conservatives wanted a smaller government? Creating government run hospitals would be far more expensive than requiring people to carry health insurance. 
Another thing; this isn't government healthcare. It's the government saying that you have to carry health insurance, and if you can't afford it THEN the government will help you find it more cheaply. It also prevents health insurance companies from defrauding and victimizing their customers. I really don't see anything wrong with it.

Solar

Quote from: thefirebrand on December 21, 2012, 01:34:55 PM
To address your first comment: Freedoms are not a blanket concept. One could argue that they should have the freedom to do anything - but we decide how to balance our freedoms so that everyone has rights. The thing that we are debating is whether this particular freedom to not have health insurance is fair to other American citizens.

Second comment: Yes, people SHOULD be responsible for their own health care. But they are not. If left to their own devices, the majority of Americans are content to not manage their own healthcare, and so it is (again) left to the government to insist that they do. For the record, I'm independent and I'm about as unhappy about the idea as you are. I don't LIKE that the government has to step in and tell people to stop being dumb, but as long as people keep being dumb it will have to continue to happen.

Third: Obamacare's individual mandate was made largely toothless in several ways. The supreme court decision that employers can pay a penalty rather than purchase healthcare for their employees, which is the cheaper option. Conservative states are also vowing to not implement Obamacare individual mandate, and in the negotiations to form the bill, religious organizations became exempt, which gives leeway to ALOT of employers to abstain. Instead of saying "kicked", I should have said "defanged". Apologies :)
You're working under the assumption that health care is a right, it is not!
I am no more responsible for your health, than you are of mine, and I don't see where I have any right to your money to take care of me for bad eating habits.

Official Trump Cult Member

#WWG1WGA

Q PATRIOT!!!

kramarat

Quote from: thefirebrand on December 21, 2012, 12:48:49 PM
Ok. Let's put it this way. Say you don't have health insurance, and are not required to. If you do not have health insurance and you get injured or sick (which is an inevitability), and go to the hospital and cannot pay for your coverage, that cost to the hospital is passed on to people who DO pay their insurance in the forms of higher premiums and costs. That is the other side of redistribution.
If you want to drive a car, you need insurance so that you AND other people are protected in the event of a collision.  Everyone must be responsible for their effect on others - and that includes taking steps to manage their own healthcare costs. Isn't personal responsibility a core conservative principle? Now, because conservatives kicked the INDIVIDUAL mandate from Obamacare, small businesses are bearing the brunt of the cost which I think is a mistake.

You're not getting it. The half of the country that can afford health insurance, will be paying for the other half that cannot. This includes illegals, and will be paid for through medicare and medicaid.

It won't matter soon anyway. With the insurance companies being forced to insure and cover people with pre-existing illness, many will just pay the fine and get insurance when they develop a serious illness. In time, it will bankrupt all of them. We are already seeing rates begin to skyrocket. There's nothing affordable about this crazy scheme.