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Author Topic: Looking for conservative clarification  (Read 2726 times)

Offline EHMakeup

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Looking for conservative clarification
« on: January 20, 2013, 04:37:01 PM »
Lets just start by saying I am not a conservative, or a Republican. If that means I must be a crazy liberal, that's cool, my prior service Marine, Texas born and raised, boyfriend calls me that all the time. I say this not elicit any certain reaction, but to give you a basis for my perspective. I am trying my darndest to understand the things happening in my country from the GOP perspective and no matter how hard I try, I can't wrap my head around certain things.

Most recently, one of my senators, Sen. Ted Cruz, going on Meet the Press, and asserting that gun shows already have the requirement of background checks. He said that the statistic stating the 40% of gun sales occur without a background check, was inflated and not accurate. When I heard this, my mouth fell open. I have stood in and Arizona gun show and watched a seller, ask a handful of easily liable questions, and a quick check for a local ID, before a gun was handed right over. If that is what the right wing thinks is a background check, I'm very worried about the likely hood of a rational conversation on the subject.

I've specifically come to a conservative board to understand how someone can says things as a representative of millions of Republicans, and not get any backlash from constituents like the ones on this forum. Anyone want to help me on this one? I thought closing gun show loopholes had like a 75% approval rating among gun owners. Did I get that wrong?



Offline Solar

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Re: Looking for conservative clarification
« Reply #1 on: January 20, 2013, 04:53:47 PM »
Honestly, I don't know what you're referring to, I thought all weapon sales required background checks of some sort.
However, if it were a rifle, it falls under state law, since there is no Fed waiting period for long guns, hand guns is another thing.
But if someone is buying a gun at a gun show, they are probably law abiding citizen, I know of no murders in recent history where someone bought a gun at a gun show just to murder people.

Then there is the issue of the responsibility of the Federal Govt to follow up if one was purchased illegally, or by a felon, the seller did his job, it's the felon that broke the law, but then most felons just steal them, they have no interest in paying more for something they can get for free.
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Offline EHMakeup

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Re: Looking for conservative clarification
« Reply #2 on: January 20, 2013, 05:05:19 PM »
But if someone is buying a gun at a gun show, they are probably law abiding citizen, I know of no murders in recent history where someone bought a gun at a gun show just to murder people.

Well, my response to this is pretty simple, Columbine. Those boys bought their guns at a gun show, with fake ID's. Also, I can promise you, gun show vendor do not have do a formal background check on anyone who buys a weapon from them, while at the gun show. That's why it's referred to as the 'gun show loophole'.

In regards to the Federal Government's responsibility in enforcing current law, you are absolutely right!! The trouble, is that's the job of the ATF, to track weapon's sales, and ensure current laws are enforced. Yet, it's been impossible to confirm anyone to that post, and huge restrictions have been put on what power they do have. What's the point in having laws that can't be enforced properly?

Online walkstall

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Re: Looking for conservative clarification
« Reply #3 on: January 20, 2013, 05:14:17 PM »
In my state if you have a CCP (concealed carry permits) on you.  Two or three questions and you can take the gun home with you.   As the background check has been done when you get a CCP. 

Not sure what Arizona allows.  My question to you would be, why did you not ask the seller of the gun why no background check.  I am sure he would have had all the answers, all we can do is second guess him.

 :thumbup:  welcome young lady.
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Offline Solar

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Re: Looking for conservative clarification
« Reply #4 on: January 20, 2013, 05:14:41 PM »
Well, my response to this is pretty simple, Columbine. Those boys bought their guns at a gun show, with fake ID's. Also, I can promise you, gun show vendor do not have do a formal background check on anyone who buys a weapon from them, while at the gun show. That's why it's referred to as the 'gun show loophole'.


Actually that's not true, Robyn Anderson bought the majority of their weapons for them, the other 9mm was bought from a pizza guy illegally as well.

Quote
In regards to the Federal Government's responsibility in enforcing current law, you are absolutely right!! The trouble, is that's the job of the ATF, to track weapon's sales, and ensure current laws are enforced. Yet, it's been impossible to confirm anyone to that post, and huge restrictions have been put on what power they do have. What's the point in having laws that can't be enforced properly?
Then the left failed when they had all three Houses recently, they had the power to do anything they wanted, instead they forced Huseincare down our throats.

You need to realize, the Dims really don't give a damn about guns, all of this crap has been nothing more than a smoke screen to cover just how badly they are handling the economy.
Koolaid is for kids, TEA is for adults

Offline raptor5618

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Re: Looking for conservative clarification
« Reply #5 on: January 20, 2013, 05:35:06 PM »
I think that the lib smoke screen as you say is why the GOP and gun owners are not all on board with clamping down on registration and checks at gun shows. If the Libs actually were only interested in making sure felons did not get their hands on a gun then the resistance would be far less. Cards toyou had a background check and assurance that once you are cleared to get a gun that the record was destroyed would all be a part of it I think. 

Now consider that one post said that false ID was used to buy guns and another said it was not true but they had someone else buy the guns for them.  Either way they committed an illegal act to get the guns.  Now what makes someone suppose that a new regulation would make those willing to break the law suddenly decide that they would not violate the new law.

Forget the opinion polls and just visit a gun store or a gun sale and you will realize that millions of people are voting with their dollars and buying guns to insure that if a gun grab happens they have a gun.  Go to the Stag Arms site and see what you find.  Two years backlog.   I listened to caller after caller on the Mark Levin show discuss how they never owned a gun but when Obama started to threaten their right they went out and and joined the NRA and are looking to purchase a gun.  Both myself and my neighbor had no real plan to buy an AR-15 but when I talked to him yesterday we talked about how we would buy one if we could find one.  I am a lefty so it is not so easy and I am not going to pay twice the price to get one but once things get back to normal, which might be a while you can bet that I will have an AR and a pistol in my gun cabinet.
"An armed man will kill an unarmed man with monotonous regularity."

Offline EHMakeup

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Re: Looking for conservative clarification
« Reply #6 on: January 20, 2013, 05:36:38 PM »
My question to you would be, why did you not ask the seller of the gun why no background check.  I am sure he would have had all the answers, all we can do is second guess him.

I did actually, and he said that he was not required to anymore, as long the purchaser provided the correct answers to his question. Some sellers at gun shows totally do full background checks, but there is not a single requirement by law to do so. I've all for having guns! There are six in my house right now. I just think that if you are going to write a law that says no felon can have a gun, he shouldn't be able to go buy one with a fake ID and a few rehearsed answers.

Actually that's not true, Robyn Anderson bought the majority of their weapons for them, the other 9mm was bought from a pizza guy illegally as well.


You are right that it was Robyn, but according to the Violence Policy Center, they were bought at the The Tanner Gun Show i 1998, buy unlicensed sellers. Also, the pizza guy, Mark Manes, sold them the pistols knowing they were underage, and there for illegal. It's a problem that this can happen, and there is no one to enforce the laws we supposedly have against these types of sales.

Oh, I'm not a "Dim", nor am I a Democrat or a Republican. I'm an Independent, and don't make decisions based on political party affiliation. Just wanted that state for the record.

Offline Solar

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Re: Looking for conservative clarification
« Reply #7 on: January 20, 2013, 05:43:13 PM »
I did actually, and he said that he was not required to anymore, as long the purchaser provided the correct answers to his question. Some sellers at gun shows totally do full background checks, but there is not a single requirement by law to do so. I've all for having guns! There are six in my house right now. I just think that if you are going to write a law that says no felon can have a gun, he shouldn't be able to go buy one with a fake ID and a few rehearsed answers.
 

You are right that it was Robyn, but according to the Violence Policy Center, they were bought at the The Tanner Gun Show i 1998, buy unlicensed sellers. Also, the pizza guy, Mark Manes, sold them the pistols knowing they were underage, and there for illegal. It's a problem that this can happen, and there is no one to enforce the laws we supposedly have against these types of sales.

Oh, I'm not a "Dim", nor am I a Democrat or a Republican. I'm an Independent, and don't make decisions based on political party affiliation. Just wanted that state for the record.
The GOP tried to pass instant checks at gun shows, if memory serves me, but it was the Dims that shot it down.

Oh, and if you came here looking for Republicans, you really won't find any supporters here, were Conservatives, there is a huge difference.
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Offline EHMakeup

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Re: Looking for conservative clarification
« Reply #8 on: January 20, 2013, 05:51:18 PM »
Either way they committed an illegal act to get the guns.  Now what makes someone suppose that a new regulation would make those willing to break the law suddenly decide that they would not violate the new law.

I get your point here, but that's not the point I was attempting to make (though it's totally possible you weren't referring to me, and I'm just being self centered  :smile: ). I don't think new regulations will stop illegal gun sales. However, confirming a head of the ATF and providing them enforceable rules. The ATF has been gutted in the last decade, and local law enforcement have been left to pick up the slack, as well as cleaning up the mess left in it's wake. With all of the budget cuts to law enforcement, it doesn't seem like the most intelligent use of resources.

And both the Democrats and Republicans are to blame for this mess!! I'm not blaming one over the other for the past, I'm just debating existing law, and how we look to enforce them moving forward.

Offline Solar

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Re: Looking for conservative clarification
« Reply #9 on: January 20, 2013, 05:59:45 PM »
I get your point here, but that's not the point I was attempting to make (though it's totally possible you weren't referring to me, and I'm just being self centered  :smile: ). I don't think new regulations will stop illegal gun sales. However, confirming a head of the ATF and providing them enforceable rules. The ATF has been gutted in the last decade, and local law enforcement have been left to pick up the slack, as well as cleaning up the mess left in it's wake. With all of the budget cuts to law enforcement, it doesn't seem like the most intelligent use of resources.

And both the Democrats and Republicans are to blame for this mess!! I'm not blaming one over the other for the past, I'm just debating existing law, and how we look to enforce them moving forward.
Murder is illegal no matter what, yet not one law on the books can stop it from happening.
If say, we were to eliminate all guns, every last one of them in the country, the amount of murders would most likely increase due to the lack of personal defense.
Then there is the issue of someone wanting to kill a couple of people, but since he can't harm the two without being overtaken, he builds a bomb and takes out ten times the amount.

Point is, there is no law that will stop an individual, or group from doing what they set out to accomplish, all that will happen is people will lose the ability to stop these perpetrators from following through.

Oh and welcome to the forum EH.
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Offline EHMakeup

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Re: Looking for conservative clarification
« Reply #10 on: January 20, 2013, 06:06:21 PM »
Murder is illegal no matter what, yet not one law on the books can stop it from happening.
If say, we were to eliminate all guns, every last one of them in the country, the amount of murders would most likely increase due to the lack of personal defense.
Then there is the issue of someone wanting to kill a couple of people, but since he can't harm the two without being overtaken, he builds a bomb and takes out ten times the amount.

Point is, there is no law that will stop an individual, or group from doing what they set out to accomplish, all that will happen is people will lose the ability to stop these perpetrators from following through.

Oh and welcome to the forum EH.

So, am I understanding correctly that since we can't stop all perpetrators, we shouldn't look at practical ways of reducing the availability of illegal weapons, to people who have lost the right to own them? I am in no way advocating revoking all weapons! I'm just saying what's the point of having laws that restrict gun ownership to felons, when there is no effective structure to enforce those laws?

Offline Solar

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Re: Looking for conservative clarification
« Reply #11 on: January 20, 2013, 06:16:11 PM »
So, am I understanding correctly that since we can't stop all perpetrators, we shouldn't look at practical ways of reducing the availability of illegal weapons, to people who have lost the right to own them? I am in no way advocating revoking all weapons! I'm just saying what's the point of having laws that restrict gun ownership to felons, when there is no effective structure to enforce those laws?
The laws are already on the books, yet they still get them.
For more than 200 years everyone could buy and sell weapons, yet suddenly there is a push to make it harder to purchase weapons, harder for the law abiding citizen.
The GOP was in favor of instant background check, yet the left stopped it, ask yourself why?
The answer is, they are using the issue as club to beat the Pubs into submission over the issue, an issue the could care less about.

If you check the stats, you will find that medical malpractice/ is one of the leading causes of death in this country, guns a distant 10th.
Maybe we should be cracking down on irresponsible doctors first?
Point is, guns make headlines, car accidents and doctors screw ups don't.
Koolaid is for kids, TEA is for adults

Offline EHMakeup

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Re: Looking for conservative clarification
« Reply #12 on: January 20, 2013, 06:23:02 PM »
The laws are already on the books, yet they still get them.
For more than 200 years everyone could buy and sell weapons, yet suddenly there is a push to make it harder to purchase weapons, harder for the law abiding citizen.
The GOP was in favor of instant background check, yet the left stopped it, ask yourself why?
The answer is, they are using the issue as club to beat the Pubs into submission over the issue, an issue the could care less about.

If you check the stats, you will find that medical malpractice/ is one of the leading causes of death in this country, guns a distant 10th.
Maybe we should be cracking down on irresponsible doctors first?
Point is, guns make headlines, car accidents and doctors screw ups don't.

Fair enough point about the other serious issues facing Americans. However, what is the point of laws, if we can't enforce them, regarding any issue? Of course existing laws haven't made a difference, no one is making sure the rules get followed. There are plenty of problems the federal government needs to be addressing. This happens to be the one the country is focused on right now. If the GOP was in favor of instant background checks, why is the junior senator from Texas going on to Meet The Press and claiming that gun show vendors already do background checks, and the "gun show loophole" is over blown? Why would the GOP have proposed instant background checks if there wasn't a need for them in the first place?

Offline raptor5618

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Re: Looking for conservative clarification
« Reply #13 on: January 20, 2013, 06:35:00 PM »
Intelligent use of resources by the government just is not going to happen. I get what your point is I think but I wonder how frequent a felon purchases a gun at a venue that would not check their credentials.  I think that the different rules for gun shows resulted in the difficulty of getting a full background check at these events.  Notice that there is not a peep about people selling guns directly.  Lots of guns locally are sold through a local ad magazine.  No FFL needed there either.  I am thinking that it is more problematic than beneficial for the number of illegal sales it might prevent.   
"An armed man will kill an unarmed man with monotonous regularity."

Offline Solar

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Re: Looking for conservative clarification
« Reply #14 on: January 20, 2013, 06:38:19 PM »
Fair enough point about the other serious issues facing Americans. However, what is the point of laws, if we can't enforce them, regarding any issue? Of course existing laws haven't made a difference, no one is making sure the rules get followed. There are plenty of problems the federal government needs to be addressing. This happens to be the one the country is focused on right now. If the GOP was in favor of instant background checks, why is the junior senator from Texas going on to Meet The Press and claiming that gun show vendors already do background checks, and the "gun show loophole" is over blown? Why would the GOP have proposed instant background checks if there wasn't a need for them in the first place?
The bigger question is why did the Dims block instant checks if they really are needed?
The Dims had all the power, yet did absolutely nothing to address the issue, could it be there really is no issue at all, that the left is using the death of children as a political football?

If they were serious, why did Reid say he will not bring a weapons Bill to the House?

You see, this really isn't an issue at all, it's merely a means of distraction of the bigger problems facing the Country, and the media played right along and got everyone worked up over absolutely nothing.
Koolaid is for kids, TEA is for adults

 

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