Looking for conservative clarification

Started by EHMakeup, January 20, 2013, 04:37:01 PM

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mdgiles

Quote from: BILLY Defiant on January 21, 2013, 03:18:14 PM
Have we "beaten" the taliban? Look at the last ten years and there is your answer. They still control a portion of the countryside just like the Viet cong and NVA regulars I fought did.

Speaking of Vietnam What you had were local rebels armed with anything they could find including sharpened bamboo sticks.

Lets go back further and look at Hitlers Legions in the Warsaw Ghetto...a few UNTRAINED people armed with old rifle's fought then the most technically advanced army in the world to a stand still.

We can keep on going down through history and even our own...the American Indian, the Revolution etc and provide numerous examples

You have to realize that weapon superiority and professional soldiers
often do poorly against a truely dedicated person who is defending his/her home and personal rights.
Okay, reality check. Despite what the left wing has been putting out for about forty years now, the US absolutely slaughtered the VC and the NVA. That's the word from the mouth of the North Vietnamese themselves. Then we quite, and went home. Oh yeah, and stabbed our ally in the back. What history shows is that ABSENT ASSISTANCE FROM AN OUTSIDE POWER, technologically inferior peoples fare poorly against technologically advanced societies IF those technologically advanced societies are willing to bring all their advantages to bear. Would the US have won the Revolution without the French? Would the Northwest Indian tribes have stood against American settlers without British assistance? Would the North Vietnamese have survived without Soviet and Red Chinese aid? All the inferior group can do is make the superior group question whether the effort is worth the possible gain. If the superior group wants it badly enough, the inferior group is screwed.
"LIBERALS: their willful ignorance is rivaled only by their catastrophic stupidity"!

Solar

Quote from: mdgiles on January 22, 2013, 06:17:42 AM
Uh, no. That's along the lines of complaining that not being allowed to shoot people you don't like is a restriction on your 2nd Amendment rights. The Bill of Rights doesn't give you freedom to engage in criminal conduct.
Example.
Stand on your soap box, at your torch light meeting going on and on about how you hate "those people". You are well within your first amendment rights. However, when you point at the torches surrounding the meeting and start suggesting the group go over to where "those people" live, and burn it down; then you are engaging in incitement. The law has no right to prevent you from speaking, it does have a right to stop or punish you for engaging in action. The anti 2nd Amendment types want to prevent you from even owning a soapbox; saying that last week someone two states away used that soapbox to incite a crowd.
Well stated.
This always alludes them, unless you cripple their ability to use drugs, then suddenly it's a restriction on their Rights.
Libel was never protected by the 1st, that was the point SCOTUS was trying to make, we were never given carte blanche over the Rights of others, just because we have freedoms from Govt.

So I ask again, show me a Federal law restricting the 1st Amendment.
All you've shown so far is lower court rulings from States, States that can set their own laws.
You see, the Bill of Rights was a restriction on our Federal Govt, not the States.
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mdgiles

Quote from: Solar on January 22, 2013, 07:41:30 AM
Well stated.
This always alludes them, unless you cripple their ability to use drugs, then suddenly it's a restriction on their Rights.
Libel was never protected by the 1st, that was the point SCOTUS was trying to make, we were never given carte blanche over the Rights of others, just because we have freedoms from Govt.

So I ask again, show me a Federal law restricting the 1st Amendment.
All you've shown so far is lower court rulings from States, States that can set their own laws.
You see, the Bill of Rights was a restriction on our Federal Govt, not the States.
Interesting. According to your interpretation of the 14th Amendment citizens of a state would have no protection if that state decided to deprive them of their rights as stated in the BoR. So if deep, deep, deep blue California decided to ban all guns within the state of California - along with passing a law overturning Citizens United within California and similarly the deep red state of Utah could pass a law banning all abortions within the state of Utah. But didn't the USSC, overturn Casey in Pennsylvania, and doesn't Heller apply to states
"LIBERALS: their willful ignorance is rivaled only by their catastrophic stupidity"!

Solar

Quote from: mdgiles on January 22, 2013, 08:03:44 AM
Interesting. According to your interpretation of the 14th Amendment citizens of a state would have no protection if that state decided to deprive them of their rights as stated in the BoR. So if deep, deep, deep blue California decided to ban all guns within the state of California - along with passing a law overturning Citizens United within California and similarly the deep red state of Utah could pass a law banning all abortions within the state of Utah. But didn't the USSC, overturn Casey in Pennsylvania, and doesn't Heller apply to states
I was torn on Heller, though it sent a message, it was not a State vs Fed issue, but rather Chicago.
I will always be Leery when SCOTUS injects itself into matters of the 2nd, because just having a decision, creates precedent and allows for interpretation.

If one reads the Bill of Rights, one would have to concede that a Federal court has absolutely no business ruling over any of it.
It's one of the reasons SCOTUS has avoided cases regarding the 2nd, that is until recently.
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raptor5618

At a very basic level, I think the constitution wanted to guarantee that our rights that are given to us by god cannot be infringed on by the government.  The role of the government was to protect the nation from outside invaders and to protect everyone from being harmed by another.   So my take is that you were able to be as free as nature allowed as long as you did not do harm to others.  Now our interpretation of harm to others has gotten stretched to an extreme but I think I am in the ball park. 

Just today a woman was killed in my area by a hammer.  Now is the time for our government to act because if they can save a single life it is worth it so hid your hammers because they are soon going to be taken away from us.  It will be pretty easy because our forefathers failed to see the importance of keeping our hammers so nothing was stated in the constitution.  Hmm how are the libs going to outlaw stones?
"An armed man will kill an unarmed man with monotonous regularity."

mdgiles

The assumption that the state government is going to any friendlier to your interests than the federal government, fails the reality test. I live in New York, tell me about it/sarc.  :rolleyes:
"LIBERALS: their willful ignorance is rivaled only by their catastrophic stupidity"!

Solar

Quote from: mdgiles on January 22, 2013, 08:44:07 AM
The assumption that the state government is going to any friendlier to your interests than the federal government, fails the reality test. I live in New York, tell me about it/sarc.  :rolleyes:
I many cases they aren't, like Ca, I'm not allowed to carry my favorite knife, the Bowie.
And Florida goes even further:

So, you have your Florida Concealed Weapon or Firearm License (CWFL) and you know that Florida preempts all firearms laws throughout the state so that you don't accidentally break some ridiculous local ordinance and end up in the hoosegow for carrying your  weapon.  You have a license from the state and we fought hard to make preemption enforceable last legislative session!

Well, you are half right.  Your pistol won't get you in trouble but your pocket knife could put you away for a MINIMUM of six months, cost you a cool grand, and yeah... they'll take your knife too.

But wait!  I have a license from the state to carry that!  Yep you do, but not from Miami-Dade County and your assisted opening pocket knife just violated their laws.

Sec. 21-14. - Dangerous weapons; penalty; trial court.
(a) Concealed dangerous weapons. It shall be unlawful for any person to wear under his clothes, or concealed about his person, or to display in a threatening manner any dangerous or deadly weapon including, but not by way of limitation, any pistol, revolver, slingshot, cross-knuckles or knuckles of lead, brass or other metal, or any bowie knife, razor, dirk, dagger, or any knife resembling a bowie knife, or any other dangerous or deadly weapon, except as hereinafter provided.
http://www.floridacarry.org/issues/knife-preemption
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raptor5618

I work in upstate NY and the people up hear are at a fever pitch because of how the state is mostly controlled by the lib's in NY city.  My state of PA is starting to see a boom from the gas industry and every day on my drive to work I see so much work being done in PA that is not going on in NY and probably won't for a good while as the governor continually comes up with ways to delay any work to drill for gas.  Every study proves that no harm is done but he just orders another one.   Same outrage about guns.  I have talked to quite a few who have told me that the police in this area are not going to even think about enforcing the gun laws that the lib's want. 

While I do not believe it will happen but if the Governor gets his wish and institutes some kind of gun confiscation, I think that there really is a high likelihood that it will not be a totally peaceful process. 
"An armed man will kill an unarmed man with monotonous regularity."

AndyJackson

The Vietnam war was won by the US during Linebacker II and the Tet Offensive, and the Vietcong & communist revolution were finished.

Walter Cronkite later in life admitted that he did his best, with his own broadcasts and general influence in the media, to make the US victory unknown to the public, with the hopes that the Vietcong and communism could rally and hang in there.

Cronkite should have been convicted of treason and hung on national TV.

He proudly handed the torch to morons like Rather, Donaldson, Matthews, Maher, Olbermann, Maddow.

Peeople who will lie and interject their beliefs instead of reporting, at the drop of a hat.

Solar

Quote from: raptor5618 on January 22, 2013, 09:00:54 AM
I work in upstate NY and the people up hear are at a fever pitch because of how the state is mostly controlled by the lib's in NY city.  My state of PA is starting to see a boom from the gas industry and every day on my drive to work I see so much work being done in PA that is not going on in NY and probably won't for a good while as the governor continually comes up with ways to delay any work to drill for gas.  Every study proves that no harm is done but he just orders another one.   Same outrage about guns.  I have talked to quite a few who have told me that the police in this area are not going to even think about enforcing the gun laws that the lib's want. 

While I do not believe it will happen but if the Governor gets his wish and institutes some kind of gun confiscation, I think that there really is a high likelihood that it will not be a totally peaceful process
.
I agree, and much will depend on which side the media falls on the issue.
If they side with the power on the Hill, then there will be no coverage of revolt, the people will be led to believe there is no resistance, which, of course would be an obvious lie.
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AndyJackson

Regarding the topic at hand, our little tag team lost me when they blatantly lied about the Columbine guys buying their own weapons at gun shows,

When you have to flippantly reply "oh yeah, I lied about that but I was still right because yadayadayadayadayada...." then you have no seat at the debate.

Try again in a few years when your entire premise and template aren't built on various randomized half-truths, distortions, and bastardizations.  That's the liberal template that's apparently succeding these days, but we don't have to accept it right in our faces on a message board.

mdgiles

I don't know if they did win. I simply don't trust the count anywhere that the Dems have even a finger in the election operation.
"LIBERALS: their willful ignorance is rivaled only by their catastrophic stupidity"!

AndyJackson

Quote from: Solar on January 22, 2013, 09:05:40 AM
I agree, and much will depend on which side the media falls on the issue.
If they side with the power on the Hill, then there will be no coverage of revolt, the people will be led to believe there is no resistance, which, of course would be an obvious lie.
Any efforts to resist the confiscation, regardless of their nature, will be labeled as domestic terrorism by the MSM.

If there are any ridiculous abuses by folks trying to take guns, you will never hear of it.

Anything remotely related to confiscation will be reported in glowing terms, as though Obama himself is saving us from the creeping menace.

It will take a hell of a lot of private citizens with cell phones, blogs, and loose-knit coalitions, along with some legal support from conservative institutes, to compete with the MSM white-wash.

Solar

Quote from: AndyJackson on January 22, 2013, 09:14:37 AM
Any efforts to resist the confiscation, regardless of their nature, will be labeled as domestic terrorism by the MSM.

If there are any ridiculous abuses by folks trying to take guns, you will never hear of it.

Anything remotely related to confiscation will be reported in glowing terms, as though Obama himself is saving us from the creeping menace.

It will take a hell of a lot of private citizens with cell phones, blogs, and loose-knit coalitions, along with some legal support from conservative institutes, to compete with the MSM white-wash.
They may have network TV, but they don't have private local TV stations, and local is where people will turn for the truth.
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