Quote from: s3779m on September 13, 2017, 12:37:54 PM
And this is one of the main reasons the south withdrew. The Excise Duties and Tariffs passed in congress went strictly down party lines. It was one of the few areas where congress would not compromise. The north wanted to protect their new industries and needed the south's$. Even on slavery, congress was able to compromise in order to get laws passed. However, looking at todays congress, I do believe they all have their hands down the corporate pants.

#3779, you're on the mark and in the process created a new dynamic: "The Road not Taken." 

In 1857, Rowan Helper, a Carolinian schooled in economics, penned his "Impending Crisis" forcefully asserting
that "slavery was a disaster for the South", his argument having nothing to do w/morality and everything to do w/economic inefficiency. He observed, from the 1850 census, that the gap between North and South was accelerating as the northern Merchant Class began Industrialization.
While the demand for raw cotton had a natural market among the great mills of Britain; its profit margin was low as it was Land and Water intensive. As well, slaves were predictably inefficient labor.
Effectively, cotton growing crowded out any alternative efforts to industrialize.
At that time, the rising economic power in the world was Imperial Germany (though not yet unified) not Great Britain. Their engineers/technicians had developed elementary machinery that could replicate manual labor in performing
redundant tasks such as cotton processing. Yet the Plantation Aristocracy, embedded in their comfort zone remained deaf, dumb and blind to economic reality and the rest is history.
Consider a moment; The South offers the North this deal.
We will abandon slavery in return for the complete lifting of all Duties/Tariffs on cotton related machinery from Germany.  If accepted, was the Civil War inevitable???????????????????????
Also consider a moment.
Our only Principled Conservative Party was the Southern Agrarian Rural Democrats of Jefferson, Madison, Lee, Rutledge, Braxton, Harrison; among others; unfortunately fatally tarred by slavery.
W/the abandonment of slavery and w/o a Civil War, is it more or less likely that they would have emerged as the dominant party of the past 150 years rather than the house manure we call the GOP.
Sigh! One can only dream.

 

Quote from: taxed on September 12, 2017, 12:16:22 PM
Whether federal revenue goes up or down is irrelevant.  Income is the private property of any person, and to seize it at the point of the gun is theft.

Don't let them sidetrack you.

I agree.

Interesting read, and kudos to tbone for the clarfication og democrat insidiousness. Walter Josh, I do think you Are drawing generalization by excluding data tbone provided and I want also to just push Taft, Coolidge and Reagan into your consideration. Granted you Are right in that the majority of Republican based on todays RINOS and the elder Northern protectionist class Are probably not good at conserving the policies and values that have made your country great. But dont draw a false conclusion when we have had our share of great  republican statesmen.

Quote from: Mountainshield on September 15, 2017, 12:39:18 PM
Interesting read, and kudos to tbone for the clarfication og democrat insidiousness. Walter Josh, I do think you Are drawing generalization by excluding data tbone provided and I want also to just push Taft, Coolidge and Reagan into your consideration. Granted you Are right in that the majority of Republican based on todays RINOS and the elder Northern protectionist class Are probably not good at conserving the policies and values that have made your country great. But dont draw a false conclusion when we have had our share of great  republican statesmen.

Silent Cal was my kind of president! Conservative, heavy on morals and principles, and -- best of all -- quiet!

Presidents like that are likely forever a thing of the past because we're now a media society. That was not the case ninety years ago. Also don't forget that non-presidents make a difference. Jack Kemp instantly springs to mind as a conservative crusader, but there are many others who made a difference.

Quote from: Mountainshield on September 15, 2017, 12:39:18 PM
Interesting read, and kudos to tbone for the clarfication og democrat insidiousness. Walter Josh, I do think you Are drawing generalization by excluding data tbone provided and I want also to just push Taft, Coolidge and Reagan into your consideration. Granted you Are right in that the majority of Republican based on todays RINOS and the elder Northern protectionist class Are probably not good at conserving the policies and values that have made your country great. But dont draw a false conclusion when we have had our share of great  republican statesmen.

As this is an opinion forum; I regularly express mine derivative of perceptions formed over several decades.
Some, compulsively defend Republicans, perceiving them as 'the good guys'. They are fairly entitled to this opinion which I emphatically do not share.
The essence of my previous assertion remains plain and simple. Politicians of the Modern Era (19th century forward) have absolutely a zero relationship to Principled Conservatism ( as you're aware,  a catalyst of the Tea Party) which is the legacy of the Greeks, the Scholastics, the English Whigs commencing w/Hume; among others.
Regarding republican 'statesmen' none remind me of Pericles, Talleyrand or Von Bismarck; among others.
As for Taft, in my judgement an utter failure as POTUS; he advanced a progressive left agenda while Chief Justice at the SC.
More insidious was Hoover.  Few are aware that he aggressively advanced what became the framework for the Agriculture Program of the New Deal; which included Farm Cartels to artificially restrict supply, a Federal Farm Board to subsidize crop prices and the economic illiteracy of paying farmers not to grow specific crops.
Sadly this terrible legacy remains alive and well going on 100 years.
Summarizing, I doubt any democrats, progressives or lefties are necessary to seriously damage free markets, as the republican record shows that they can do the job all by themselves.                                 

   

QuoteAs this is an opinion forum;

When did CPF become an opinion forum?  You may have an opinion but it is a facts and data board.  Post something and if someone ask for proof of a statement it is the poster responsibility to back it up.  Otherwise it just an opinion.   

Quote from: Walter Josh on September 15, 2017, 03:14:21 PM
As this is an opinion forum;

No, we are not, as Walks pointed out, facts come first and foremost, followed by opinion.

QuoteI regularly express mine derivative of perceptions formed over several decades.
Some, compulsively defend Republicans, perceiving them as 'the good guys'. They are fairly entitled to this opinion which I emphatically do not share.

I think you'll be hardpressed to find one individual that thinks the gop'E as the "the good guys", the party is anything but.

QuoteThe essence of my previous assertion remains plain and simple. Politicians of the Modern Era (19th century forward) have absolutely a zero relationship to Principled Conservatism ( as you're aware,  a catalyst of the Tea Party) which is the legacy of the Greeks, the Scholastics, the English Whigs commencing w/Hume; among others.

Every historical event is now legacy of some point in the past, TEA, on the other hand, is representative of our Founders ideals.

QuoteRegarding republican 'statesmen' none remind me of Pericles, Talleyrand or Von Bismarck; among others.
As for Taft, in my judgement an utter failure as POTUS; he advanced a progressive left agenda while Chief Justice at the SC.
More insidious was Hoover.  Few are aware that he aggressively advanced what became the framework for the Agriculture Program of the New Deal; which included Farm Cartels to artificially restrict supply, a Federal Farm Board to subsidize crop prices and the economic illiteracy of paying farmers not to grow specific crops.
Sadly this terrible legacy remains alive and well going on 100 years.
Summarizing, I doubt any democrats, progressives or lefties are necessary to seriously damage free markets, as the republican record shows that they can do the job all by themselves.                                 

Hence the reason you'll find anyone here supporting the Marxists within the GOP. No, we support Conservatives only, and until they either take over the party, or split to form a new, we're all stuck with the GOP.

Quote from: walkstall on September 15, 2017, 03:38:53 PM
When did CPF become an opinion forum?  You may have an opinion but it is a facts and data board.  Post something and if someone ask for proof of a statement it is the poster responsibility to back it up.  Otherwise it just an opinion.

Then please permit me to rephrase.
It's an opinion Board requiring the support of sound data and facts.

Quote from: Solar on September 15, 2017, 03:57:01 PM
No, we are not, as Walks pointed out, facts come first and foremost, followed by opinion.
I think you'll be hardpressed to find one individual that thinks the gop'E as the "the good guys", the party is anything but.
Every historical event is now legacy of some point in the past, TEA, on the other hand, is representative of our Founders ideals.
Hence the reason you'll find anyone here supporting the Marxists within the GOP. No, we support Conservatives only, and until they either take over the party, or split to form a new, we're all stuck with the GOP.

Solar and Walkstall;
Fair enough, as I have no substantive disagreement w/the argument both of you make.

Quote from: Walter Josh on September 15, 2017, 07:23:11 PM
Then please permit me to rephrase.
It's an opinion Board requiring the support of sound data and facts.

It is a facts and data Conservative Political TEA Forum board.  And it's an opinion board when you can not back up your post.  Or you wish to post what you think. 

Quote from: Walter Josh on September 15, 2017, 07:29:53 PM
Solar and Walkstall;
Fair enough, as I have no substantive disagreement w/the argument both of you make.

It's one of the main things that sets us apart from other forums, facts and a willingness to back it all up.
Sure, much is taken for granted, like Dims, murder babies without conscience, enslave the black community, cheat on every election, push a Marxist agenda at every turn, lie constantly, brainwash every new generation. None of which are mere generalities, rather provable fact.
And yes, the GOP'E enables them like a deranged doctor manipulates his patients into doing his evil deeds.

Ya know what's sad? The entire Nation is aware of this problem, and yet, there are still 30 million still voting Dim, while the rest of us are trying desperately to purge the GOP of a few remaining entrenched Marxists controlling the RNC.
And not one person would challenge me on that comment, because it's all verifiable fact, these are not the ramblings of a conspiracy freak, the gop'E has no problem reminding the base they're willing to help the Dim party use the IRS as a weapon against all of us, us "Wacko Birds", as McStain referred to us.

But you get the point.

Quote from: Mountainshield on September 15, 2017, 12:39:18 PM
Interesting read, and kudos to tbone for the clarfication og democrat insidiousness. Walter Josh, I do think you Are drawing generalization by excluding data tbone provided and I want also to just push Taft, Coolidge and Reagan into your consideration. Granted you Are right in that the majority of Republican based on todays RINOS and the elder Northern protectionist class Are probably not good at conserving the policies and values that have made your country great. But dont draw a false conclusion when we have had our share of great  republican statesmen.

Mountain,
Your post, referencing 'republican statesmen', triggered a self-reflection which provoked me to reassess and conclude that I've been unfair to statesmen (not politicians).
My catalyst was Charles Francis Adams, son of Quincy and Lincoln's Ambassador to Great Britain, who likely prevented the partitioning or worse of the USA.
Recall that by mid-19th century, the Royal Navy went wherever and whenever it pleased w/a 1000 warship fleet manned by state of the era gunnery. Conversely our Navy was virtually non-existent.
Additionally, Britain, who had never forgotten, either Yorktown or 1812, had 50,000 regulars in Canada.
Our South had a virtual captive market for its raw cotton among the great mills in Birmingham and Manchester; as the Plantations of East Bengal were more than a decade away and the Suez Canal had not been opened.
Perhaps most importantly, Viscount Palmerston, Liberal PM and Leader in Commons was a strong advocate/supporter of the British Merchant Class.
Yet Adams was able to persuade the British Government not to intercede on behalf of its natural economic ally by blockading the Northern Union ports nor launch an invasion of New York, forcing the Union to fight on two fronts.
Consider the consequences if Adams had failed!