Ky. clerk jailed for refusing to issue marriage licenses

Started by carlb, September 03, 2015, 10:51:12 AM

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Charliemyboy

Quote from: daidalos on September 06, 2015, 01:22:26 PM
Mandella and Ghandi weren't Americans. They don't apply. MLK was however, and the difference between him and this clerk is as glaring as night and day.

First off he really believed what it was he was saying. MLK was't trying to use a religion, which itself says the behaviour in question is wrong, as a crutch to justify breaking the law.

MLK also didn't hurt others with civil disobedience. AND MLK damned sure didn't sit and say woe is me, I'm being religiously persecuted, after being jailed for engaging in that civil disobedience.

And in fact, if we look at the text of his 'I have a dream speech" MLK actually was preaching the exact opposite of what this clerk is saying.

Ut oh.

Of course they apply.  While Mandella and Gandhi weren't American,  the principle is the same. They are universally honored.  Martin Luther King has become a Saint in the Anglican Church.  His statue is atop Westminster Abbey with other Anglican Saints.  He wasn't English.  And he was a Southern Baptist minister and frequently quoted the bible in his speeches. 

Solar

Quote from: daidalos on September 07, 2015, 12:20:20 PM
It did when it wrote the equal protection clause. And when it later passed the DomAct. As I've said time and time again, had the Congress kept it's nose out of the marriage business to start with. There would never have been the door opened to start with.

However Congress didn't, Congress decided to interject itself into the situation. And once the Supremes got involved, and now that's the law of the land. If we don't like that, we are totally free to continue going to church, and lobby to effect a change in the law.

We are not however, nor has any American ever been, free to simply ignore the law, because we don't agree with, or like it.

And yes, even when those laws, are contrary to our religious sensibilities.

For example, take abortion. Most Christians are, vehemently against the practice of abortion.

And yet, if those same Christians go and blow up the abortion clinic, to kill those who are performing abortions, we put them in jail as murderers.

Yet to hear some tell it now, in this instance, since they were acting on their religiously held belief, they shouldn't be in prison for murdering the Abortion Dr. That's what those who try to defend this clerk are saying.
Quit dancing around the issue. One more time, SOTUS wrote law, onl Congress can write law.

Show me where the Govt is in the right.
You do realize, only Congress can write laws, right?
Did Congress violate the First? No, so how was it possible for SCOTUS to write law?
Come on Daidalos, you can do it, use that critical thinking, and give us a reasonable answering explaining how the govt had the right to do what they did.

First Amendment - Religion and Expression. Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

Why is this so hard to understand?
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walkstall

Quote from: Jarlaxle on September 07, 2015, 10:34:03 AM
Then she should have resigned.  If she won't either do her job or resign...honestly, I say lock her up until the end of her term and fine her into penury.

The voters voted her in not the government.  I they don't wish to have her.   Let them vote her out.  IF you're too stupid to know who you're voting for then you should not be voting. 
A politician thinks of the next election. A statesman, of the next generation.- James Freeman Clarke

Always remember "Feelings Aren't Facts."

zewazir

Quote from: daidalos on September 07, 2015, 11:51:29 AM
As a Christian yes, I would obey the law of the land I live in. Doesn't mean I would not do everything I could within the law to change that law though.

That's the deeper principle at play here CarlB. We the peons in this nation don't pick and choose which laws we will obey and which we  won't.

Many here scream to high heaven every time Obama does it. Yet now, because a woman who has clearly ignored the scripture when it's suited her to do so. Does so claiming Christianity and we'
re all supposed to feel sorry for her? WTF? Either the law is the law, to be applied to everyone across the board.

Or we don't live under a system of laws. That simple.

Oh and yes refusing to adhere and abide by a court order IS a crime. It is called contempt of court.
So if congress were to write a law further ignoring the 1st amendment, which demanded that you give public allegiance to Satan, you would follow it because it is the law?  If congress wrote a law which required you to turn in your neighbor if you overhear them criticizing government, you would follow it?

You and your kind are THE PROBLEM with our society today.  Your so-called "Christian" values are overshadowed by your obeisance to government. Get a clue, you gutless wiener.  GOVERNMENT IS NOT GOD!!!!!  Our FIRST allegiance is ALWAYS to God. And when the laws of government tell us to violate God's Law, then it is INCUMBENT on us, as Christians, to VIOLATE SECULAR LAW in favor of God's law. Kim Davis understand this, and she is willing to pay the price for standing for God. REAL Christians are behind her 1000%.

Further, as people devoted to the freedom of men, it is ALSO incumbent on us to violate bad laws. 
Quote"But when a long train of abuses and usurpations pursuing invariably the same object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute despotism, it is their RIGHT, IT IS THEIR DUTY to throw off such government, and to provide new guards for their future security."
We may not be at the point of throwing off government, but we are DEFINITELY at the point where
Quote"If a law is unjust, a man is not only right to disobey it, he is obligated to do so."
(Thomas Jefferson)

I suggest you get your head out of the ass of your political masters (or pull their dicks out of your ass, whichever is more appropriate) before you find that suddenly they start passing laws which you DO care about. And then it will be too late, because you will have supported them arresting anyone else willing to support you.

carlb

Quote from: mrclose on September 07, 2015, 04:13:32 PM
Opinions are sometimes right, and sometimes wrong. But they aren't law.

In the early days of our government, Supreme Court opinions were so insignificant that Congress didn't bother preserving them. Opinions were left to individuals to keep track of, and were not congressionally-funded into official records until 1874, almost a century after our independence. Before Congress stepped in, Court records were printed and kept under copyright by private citizens and reporters, who sold them for profit.



Thanks for that. I didn't understand this in this level, but I did know that the Supreme Court was the least powerful branch. Congress, the most powerful. How times have changed!

walkstall

Quote from: zewazir on September 07, 2015, 04:13:07 PM
So if congress were to write a law further ignoring the 1st amendment, which demanded that you give public allegiance to Satan, you would follow it because it is the law?  If congress wrote a law which required you to turn in your neighbor if you overhear them criticizing government, you would follow it?

You and your kind are THE PROBLEM with our society today.  Your so-called "Christian" values are overshadowed by your obeisance to government. Get a clue, you gutless wiener. GOVERNMENT IS NOT GOD!!!!!  Our FIRST allegiance is ALWAYS to God. And when the laws of government tell us to violate God's Law, then it is INCUMBENT on us, as Christians, to VIOLATE SECULAR LAW in favor of God's law. Kim Davis understand this, and she is willing to pay the price for standing for God. REAL Christians are behind her 1000%.

Further, as people devoted to the freedom of men, it is ALSO incumbent on us to violate bad laws.   We may not be at the point of throwing off government, but we are DEFINITELY at the point where  (Thomas Jefferson)

I suggest you get your head out of the ass of your political masters (or pull their dicks out of your ass, whichever is more appropriate) before you find that suddenly they start passing laws which you DO care about. And then it will be too late, because you will have supported them arresting anyone else willing to support you.


I think you need to keep that book by Dale Carnegie on "how to win friends and influence people."   :lol: 
A politician thinks of the next election. A statesman, of the next generation.- James Freeman Clarke

Always remember "Feelings Aren't Facts."

Jarlaxle

Quote from: Solar on September 07, 2015, 11:34:48 AM
Lets assume a law was passed that outlawed you right to voice an opinion on the issue.

Straw man.

QuoteWould you follow a bad law?
That's what this is, a usurpation of the Constitution, where SCOTUS actually wrote law and bypassed Congress to do it.
Read the First Amendment and understand exactly what it says about :Laws, Congress and Religion".
There is a reason the Founders believed it should be the First in a list of Ten, followed by our ability to defend them.

Rest of post rendered meaningless by said straw man.
I ride a motorcycle because it is much more fun than therapy.

Jarlaxle

Quote from: carlb on September 07, 2015, 12:24:33 PM
I have no doubt you would. If I were on the jury, they would walk. Ultimately WE decide. It'sccalled jury nullification.

Then you are no better than the idiots calling for the lynching of Darren Wilson.
I ride a motorcycle because it is much more fun than therapy.

Solar

Quote from: Jarlaxle on September 07, 2015, 06:14:26 PM
Straw man.

Rest of post rendered meaningless by said straw man.
Wrong! Had I posed the question about SCOTUS writing law a year ago, you'd have claimed straw man then as well, because only Congress can write law.
So grow a set and answer the question.
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carlb

Quote from: Jarlaxle on September 07, 2015, 06:15:47 PM
Then you are no better than the idiots calling for the lynching of Darren Wilson.

I guess you and Dildo would have demanded the german people fully support the Nazis. After all, ITS THW LAW! They were ELECTED.

Jarlaxle

And now, we veer from straw man to reductio ad absurdum.
I ride a motorcycle because it is much more fun than therapy.

Solar

Quote from: Jarlaxle on September 07, 2015, 06:39:07 PM
And now, we veer from straw man to reductio ad absurdum.
Is that all you've got, insults?
We're a debate forum, if you can't debate, don't expect to gain any credibility amongst the membership.
You're already hitting negative territory.
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keyboarder

Quote from: Solar on September 07, 2015, 06:47:06 PM
Is that all you've got, insults?
We're a debate forum, if you can't debate, don't expect to gain any credibility amongst the membership.
You're already hitting negative territory.

Smells offensively like a liberal!  Seen his type of argument on those 3rd rated forums.   :glare:
.If you want to lead the orchestra, you must turn your back to the crowd      Forbes

Solar

Quote from: keyboarder on September 07, 2015, 06:52:52 PM
Smells offensively like a liberal!  Seen his type of argument on those 3rd rated forums.   :glare:
Old Millennial, same thing. :biggrin:
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keyboarder

#104
Quote from: Solar on September 07, 2015, 06:54:48 PM
Old Millennial, same thing. :biggrin:

Don't let him ruin what's left of our holiday.   :popcorn:

As a side note, "evil prevails where good men do nothing".
The pastor of my church gave out copies of our church doctrine this past Sunday.  The amended copy reiterates the church stand on gay marriage and homosexuality, further what action the church takes in matters of the same.  I can tell you that our congregation stands in opposition to any criminal contempt charges against the lady in KY.   :thumbup:
.If you want to lead the orchestra, you must turn your back to the crowd      Forbes