OK, so a big part of conservative ideology is that government regulation generally = bad.

Most conservatives oppose government regulations on tobacco, seatbelts, and toxic chemicals emitted by industrial factories.  These kill hundreds of thousands of people a year.  Let the free market handle it, they say.

Conservatives support stricter laws and deportation of illegal immigrants, because they steal our jobs and commit crimes, apparently.

Statistically speaking, all varieties of industries you adamantly refuse to regulate kill orders of magnitude more people and cause far more damage to the population than illegal immigrants ever will. If you could wish away second hand smoking or illegal immigration, any sane person would pick the former.

So why the big fuss over illegal immigrants (and children for that matter)?  After all, immigration laws are a form of government regulation, and I think deporting people at gunpoint requires a more intrusive government than one that sends a guy with a clipboard to examine your factory twice a month.  Is this just a purely emotional, xenophobic thing, with no basis in utilitarian benefit?

Fuck, some of your politicians have voted to cut funding to cancer research.  Tell me, what kills more people; cancer, or illegal immigrants?   


Please do not reply with, "they are breaking the law".  The issue here is why you want that law in the first place, but not laws against practices infinitely more dangerous to our society.  Also, notice my use of the word "most".  I don't give a damn that you personally are OK with seatbelt laws, and I don't want to hear your indignant speech about how I'm generalizing. 

Smoking is a personal choice.  Defense of the borders is the #1 responsibility of government.

If you had a daughter, wife, sister raped and murdered by a foreign invader, you'd understand.

If you on day found yourself a paraplegic because of a drunk driver who happened to be in this country ILLEGALLY, you'd spend the rest of your days thinking how unnecessary your condition was.

Open borders folks are completely nuts (seems to only apply to America).

Quote from: Sci Fi Fan on July 28, 2014, 09:11:38 PM
OK, so a big part of conservative ideology is that government regulation generally = bad.

Conservatism isn't an ideology.  It's a way of life.  Government regulation isn't generally bad; over regulation is.

Quote
Most conservatives oppose government regulations on tobacco, seatbelts, and toxic chemicals emitted by industrial factories.

No, we do not oppose regulation on chemicals emitted by industrial factories.  That is ridiculous.  We are the ones who want a clean environment.

Quote
  These kill hundreds of thousands of people a year.  Let the free market handle it, they say.

The free market is a wonderful thing.

Quote
Conservatives support stricter laws and deportation of illegal immigrants, because they steal our jobs and commit crimes, apparently.

"Apparently"?

Quote
Statistically speaking, all varieties of industries you adamantly refuse to regulate kill orders of magnitude more people and cause far more damage to the population than illegal immigrants ever will. If you could wish away second hand smoking or illegal immigration, any sane person would pick the former.

False premise, we aren't anti-regulation.  That is something you dreamed up, or your professor told you to think and parrot.

Quote
So why the big fuss over illegal immigrants (and children for that matter)?  After all, immigration laws are a form of government regulation, and I think deporting people at gunpoint requires a more intrusive government than one that sends a guy with a clipboard to examine your factory twice a month.  Is this just a purely emotional, xenophobic thing, with no basis in utilitarian benefit?

Not up to speed on the Constitution, are you professor?  Read Article IV, section 4.

Quote
Fuck, some of your politicians have voted to cut funding to cancer research.  Tell me, what kills more people; cancer, or illegal immigrants?   

Government, since it's responsible for both.  It kills innovation, and let's criminals and third-world disease spill in.

Quote
Please do not reply with, "they are breaking the law".  The issue here is why you want that law in the first place, but not laws against practices infinitely more dangerous to our society.

Your whole premise is flawed, nevertheless, protecting the borders is part of the Constitution.

Quote
  Also, notice my use of the word "most".  I don't give a damn that you personally are OK with seatbelt laws, and I don't want to hear your indignant speech about how I'm generalizing.

Let's start you on the basics.  Maybe you can bring it to your professor and you can educate him.  We aren't anti-regulation, and border security is in the Constitution.  See how easy that is?

Quote from: Sci Fi Fan on July 28, 2014, 09:11:38 PM
OK, so a big part of conservative ideology is that government regulation generally = bad.

Most conservatives oppose government regulations on tobacco, seatbelts, and toxic chemicals emitted by industrial factories.  These kill hundreds of thousands of people a year.  Let the free market handle it, they say.

Conservatives support stricter laws and deportation of illegal immigrants, because they steal our jobs and commit crimes, apparently.

Statistically speaking, all varieties of industries you adamantly refuse to regulate kill orders of magnitude more people and cause far more damage to the population than illegal immigrants ever will. If you could wish away second hand smoking or illegal immigration, any sane person would pick the former.

So why the big fuss over illegal immigrants (and children for that matter)?  After all, immigration laws are a form of government regulation, and I think deporting people at gunpoint requires a more intrusive government than one that sends a guy with a clipboard to examine your factory twice a month.  Is this just a purely emotional, xenophobic thing, with no basis in utilitarian benefit?

Fuck, some of your politicians have voted to cut funding to cancer research.  Tell me, what kills more people; cancer, or illegal immigrants?   


Please do not reply with, "they are breaking the law".  The issue here is why you want that law in the first place, but not laws against practices infinitely more dangerous to our society.  Also, notice my use of the word "most".  I don't give a damn that you personally are OK with seatbelt laws, and I don't want to hear your indignant speech about how I'm generalizing.

Traditional and principled Conservatism has never been an ideology
and transcends party politics. It was born in Periclean Athens and
represents an idea and an attitude as to how one must behave to
honor the ageless wisdom of the past. Suggest you pause and reflect,
rather than emitting regular brain farts. Then in no time you'll have a
coherent and arguable premise.

Quote from: Walter Josh on July 30, 2014, 08:43:07 PM

Traditional and principled Conservatism has never been an ideology
and transcends party politics. It was born in Periclean Athens and
represents an idea and an attitude as to how one must behave to
honor the ageless wisdom of the past. Suggest you pause and reflect,
rather than emitting regular brain farts. Then in no time you'll have a
coherent and arguable premise.

He actually can't help himself. He lives on a planet populated by himself and a bazillion straw men. Imagine H. G. Wells, paranoid and using methamphetamines.

Quote from: Sci Fi Fan on July 28, 2014, 09:11:38 PM
OK, so a big part of conservative ideology is that government regulation generally = bad.

Most conservatives oppose government regulations on tobacco, seatbelts, and toxic chemicals emitted by industrial factories.

Only two sentences and already you are into your strawman argument.

1) No Conservative opposes government regulation of toxic chemicals emitted by industrial factories.

2) Seat belts  save lives, but is it the Government Job to make sure you wear one since the only one affected by its non-use would be yourself? If you believe it is the government's job to protect you from doing something stupid, say good bye to any kind of extreme sport or hobby! (Bungee jumping, skydiving, auto racing, and don't even get me started on skateboards, skiing or trampolines)

QuoteThese kill hundreds of thousands of people a year.  Let the free market handle it, they say.

Cigarettes. Instead of taxing tobacco products with a "sin tax" why not just outlaw all tobacco products?

Two reasons: 1 Tax revenue (both parties profit from that), and 2 political lobbying by the tobacco industry. While conventional wisdom says that most money goes to Republicans on this matter, a little know fact is that the tobacco lobby gets more bang for its buck by spreading the wealth (to coin a phrase) on the Democrat side.

According to the American Journal of Preventive Medicine article 27 Dec 2004, money provided to Democrat politicians by the tobacco lobby, was twice as effective in getting that member to vote in favor of pro tobacco legislation than it would be for a Republican.

Where there's smoke there's money: tobacco industry campaign contributions and U.S. Congressional voting

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15556735

QuoteConservatives support stricter laws and deportation of illegal immigrants, because they steal our jobs and commit crimes, apparently.

Are you claiming they don't? What statistics/studies do you have to support your assertion?

QuoteStatistically speaking, all varieties of industries you adamantly refuse to regulate kill orders of magnitude more people and cause far more damage to the population than illegal immigrants ever will. If you could wish away second hand smoking or illegal immigration, any sane person would pick the former.

I think you'd find yourself hard pressed to produce a death certificate that lists the cause of death "Second Hand Smoke". There is a reason for this. If it takes a 1st hand smoker 40 or 50 years to die from smoking how long will it take someone, who inhales far less smoke to die from "Second Hand Smoke"?

As for the rest of your sweeping generalization, you will not find a Conservative, especially not on this forum who is opposed to rational and sane regulation of dangerous environmental toxins that are used by or produced by industry.

This may come as a shock to you, but Conservatives have to breath the same air, and drink the same water you and your precious protected classes do.

QuoteSo why the big fuss over illegal immigrants (and children for that matter)?  After all, immigration laws are a form of government regulation, and I think deporting people at gunpoint requires a more intrusive government than one that sends a guy with a clipboard to examine your factory twice a month.  Is this just a purely emotional, xenophobic thing, with no basis in utilitarian benefit?

There is only one president I know who deported children at the point of a gun...



Perhaps you've heard of him. His wife used to be Secretary of State and she might be running for president herself in 2016.

QuoteFuck, some of your politicians have voted to cut funding to cancer research.  Tell me, what kills more people; cancer, or illegal immigrants?

You are going to have to provide documentation for that allegation.

QuotePlease do not reply with, "they are breaking the law".

Why not? They are. AND "most" will continue to break laws once they get here!

QuoteThe issue here is why you want that law in the first place, but not laws against practices infinitely more dangerous to our society.  Also, notice my use of the word "most".  I don't give a damn that you personally are OK with seatbelt laws, and I don't want to hear your indignant speech about how I'm generalizing.

Okay, why do you lock your doors at night? Why do you lock your car when you leave it in a parking lot? "Most" people who walk by your house or your car are not going to steal anything from it or try to harm you!

Why don't you let just anyone into your home? Are you xenophobic or just racist?

-Darth

I always do a facepalm whenever I see what amounts to because conservatives are against new regulations they must be for zero regulations.  No.  Personally I'd like to see the regulations we have enforced.  Making new regulations usually only makes more paperwork, and generally does not help enforce laws which are already being broken.

As for illegal immigration, I'd like to see democrats and liberals actually enforce the laws we have in place?  Is that so difficult?  I know many people who have come here *gasp* legally!  These are people from all over, from Africa, to Europe to Asia to South America.  They all did it legally.

Quote from: Sci Fi Fan on July 28, 2014, 09:11:38 PM
OK, so a big part of conservative ideology is that government regulation generally = bad.

Most conservatives oppose government regulations on tobacco, seatbelts, and toxic chemicals emitted by industrial factories.  These kill hundreds of thousands of people a year.  Let the free market handle it, they say.

Conservatives support stricter laws and deportation of illegal immigrants, because they steal our jobs and commit crimes, apparently.

Statistically speaking, all varieties of industries you adamantly refuse to regulate kill orders of magnitude more people and cause far more damage to the population than illegal immigrants ever will. If you could wish away second hand smoking or illegal immigration, any sane person would pick the former.

So why the big fuss over illegal immigrants (and children for that matter)?  After all, immigration laws are a form of government regulation, and I think deporting people at gunpoint requires a more intrusive government than one that sends a guy with a clipboard to examine your factory twice a month.  Is this just a purely emotional, xenophobic thing, with no basis in utilitarian benefit?

Fuck, some of your politicians have voted to cut funding to cancer research.  Tell me, what kills more people; cancer, or illegal immigrants?   


Please do not reply with, "they are breaking the law".  The issue here is why you want that law in the first place, but not laws against practices infinitely more dangerous to our society.  Also, notice my use of the word "most".  I don't give a damn that you personally are OK with seatbelt laws, and I don't want to hear your indignant speech about how I'm generalizing.

Well you got that completely wrong so why should I read further?

Quote from: Sci Fi Fan on July 28, 2014, 09:11:38 PM
OK, so a big part of conservative ideology is that government regulation generally = bad.

Conservatives support stricter laws and deportation of illegal immigrants, because they steal our jobs and commit crimes, apparently.

Statistically speaking, all varieties of industries you adamantly refuse to regulate kill orders of magnitude more people and cause far more damage to the population than illegal immigrants ever will. If you could wish away second hand smoking or illegal immigration, any sane person would pick the former

Boy do you gots it wrong.

First off, conservatives oppose JOB KILLING REGULATIONS, BUSIENSS and FREE MARKET CAPITALISM INHIBITORS AN those that nit pick MALA EN PROHIBITUM 'Crimes', I don't know where you get your stats from (please don't quote stats) as a former Stat man myself who developed the fine art of the body count in Vietnam I know what kind of smoke and mirrors the whole business is.

True conservatives beleive in strict enforcement of MALA EN SE crimes and harsh punishment for those who break the law. LAW and ORDER...Security etc. Liberals, leftists coddle those felons and come up with all sorts of mitigation especially when Minorities such as some illegals who are overhwhelmingly involved.

Now what 'sane' person would choose a hoard of penniless, needy illegals, possibly diseased, likely to be in thrall to vicious drug cartels over "second hand smoke".....I can walk away from some goof smoking a cigarette, I can;t walk away from a bunch of south of the border Vato's who are under the protection of some idiot bastard in the White house.

Now pull your head out of your ass and do some real research on the impact of crime, disease and illegal immigration on AMERICAN lives and society.

Quote from: Sci Fi Fan on July 28, 2014, 09:11:38 PM
OK, so a big part of conservative ideology is that government regulation generally = bad.

No, that's not true as a blanket statement, and you know it, but the statement carries enough veracity that I'll let it slide for now.

Quote from: Sci Fi Fan on July 28, 2014, 09:11:38 PMMost conservatives oppose government regulations on tobacco, seatbelts, and toxic chemicals emitted by industrial factories.  These kill hundreds of thousands of people a year.  Let the free market handle it, they say.

These are all verifiable lies. Not surprising. Interesting that you would claim that seatbelts, or government regulations regarding seatbelts, or even opposition to seatbelts or government regulations on seatbelts "kill hundreds of thousands of people a year." I hadn't heard that one before. Provide sources or we'll just toss these into the massive SFF Bullshit Bucket.

Quote from: Sci Fi Fan on July 28, 2014, 09:11:38 PMConservatives support stricter laws and deportation of illegal immigrants, because they steal our jobs and commit crimes, apparently.

Conservatives support the federal government actually doing the very few specific things it's suited and authorized to do, and one of those things is securing the nation's borders. Any nation that does not or cannot secure its borders ceases to be a nation.

Quote from: Sci Fi Fan on July 28, 2014, 09:11:38 PMStatistically speaking, all varieties of industries you adamantly refuse to regulate kill orders of magnitude more people and cause far more damage to the population than illegal immigrants ever will. If you could wish away second hand smoking or illegal immigration, any sane person would pick the former.

I'm sure you spend the first half-hour of your day on your knees, wishing away second-hand smoke and illegal immigration. And then you spend a half-hour telling yourself that the two are somehow related, I guess because evil conservatives have spoken about both matters at some point. You can do better than this lame shit, SFF.

Quote from: Sci Fi Fan on July 28, 2014, 09:11:38 PMSo why the big fuss over illegal immigrants (and children for that matter)?  After all, immigration laws are a form of government regulation, and I think deporting people at gunpoint requires a more intrusive government than one that sends a guy with a clipboard to examine your factory twice a month.  Is this just a purely emotional, xenophobic thing, with no basis in utilitarian benefit?

First of all, EVERYTHING government does happens at the point of a gun. The guy with a clipboard who examines your factory twice a month is a quick phone call away from introducing you to a man with a gun. That's what government is. And as you well know, the issue at hand with the children flooding the border is not immigration per se, legal or illegal, but control of the border. Further, it's an issue of the ongoing lawlessness of the executive branch of the federal government under the Kenyan. EVERY sovereign nation has the right, actually the duty, to control its borders.

Let's be very clear about this. The immigration issue, as it has existed for 60 years or more, is an issue regarding illegal, unwanted Hispanic immigrants. They're not illegal because they're Hispanic. They're not unwanted because they're Hispanic. They're illegal because we have laws that outline how you get to come here legally, and they have broken those laws. They're unwanted because we don't have any need or desire for them to come here. And they're Hispanic because they're Hispanic. We don't have a problem with the borders being overrun by Czechs or Poles or Lithuanians or Chinese or Koreans or Russians or Portuguese or French or Dutch. We have a problem with Hispanics forcing their way into this country illegally from Mexico, or from Central America by way of Mexico. And right now we have a problem with a flood of Hispanic 'children' who are surging across the southern borders -- and immediately surrendering to the first person they see with a badge -- because the current President of the United States -- without the consent of the Congress or the American people -- has all but promised them they can stay.

Please endeavor to get more of a grasp on the issue before you attempt to engage us in debate on the subject.

Quote from: Sci Fi Fan on July 28, 2014, 09:11:38 PMFuck, some of your politicians have voted to cut funding to cancer research.  Tell me, what kills more people; cancer, or illegal immigrants?   

Cancer research, a laudable, worthwhile endeavor, is not the responsibility of the federal government of the United States. Securing the borders IS the responsibility of the federal government of the United States. I can't say which activity kills more people, and you can't either. What a stupid comparison. I would have thought you could see the difference.

Quote from: Sci Fi Fan on July 28, 2014, 09:11:38 PMPlease do not reply with, "they are breaking the law".

I already pointed out that they are breaking the law. You are really stretching the patience of the powers that be around here by trying to instruct us how we may or may not respond to you.

Quote from: Sci Fi Fan on July 28, 2014, 09:11:38 PMThe issue here is why you want that law in the first place, but not laws against practices infinitely more dangerous to our society.

No, that's merely the way you would like to frame an issue. It's not even "the" issue. It appears that you live in a strange world populated with straw men decorated with apples and oranges.

Quote from: Sci Fi Fan on July 28, 2014, 09:11:38 PMAlso, notice my use of the word "most".  I don't give a damn that you personally are OK with seatbelt laws, and I don't want to hear your indignant speech about how I'm generalizing.

Hey, I'm personally OK with seatbelt laws, but I sure hate the way you generalize.

Putz.

Quote from: TboneAgain on July 31, 2014, 07:30:31 PM
No, that's not true as a blanket statement, and you know it, but the statement carries enough veracity that I'll let it slide for now.

These are all verifiable lies. Not surprising. Interesting that you would claim that seatbelts, or government regulations regarding seatbelts, or even opposition to seatbelts or government regulations on seatbelts "kill hundreds of thousands of people a year." I hadn't heard that one before. Provide sources or we'll just toss these into the massive SFF Bullshit Bucket.

Conservatives support the federal government actually doing the very few specific things it's suited and authorized to do, and one of those things is securing the nation's borders. Any nation that does not or cannot secure its borders ceases to be a nation.

I'm sure you spend the first half-hour of your day on your knees, wishing away second-hand smoke and illegal immigration. And then you spend a half-hour telling yourself that the two are somehow related, I guess because evil conservatives have spoken about both matters at some point. You can do better than this lame shit, SFF.

First of all, EVERYTHING government does happens at the point of a gun. The guy with a clipboard who examines your factory twice a month is a quick phone call away from introducing you to a man with a gun. That's what government is. And as you well know, the issue at hand with the children flooding the border is not immigration per se, legal or illegal, but control of the border. Further, it's an issue of the ongoing lawlessness of the executive branch of the federal government under the Kenyan. EVERY sovereign nation has the right, actually the duty, to control its borders.

Let's be very clear about this. The immigration issue, as it has existed for 60 years or more, is an issue regarding illegal, unwanted Hispanic immigrants. They're not illegal because they're Hispanic. They're not unwanted because they're Hispanic. They're illegal because we have laws that outline how you get to come here legally, and they have broken those laws. They're unwanted because we don't have any need or desire for them to come here. And they're Hispanic because they're Hispanic. We don't have a problem with the borders being overrun by Czechs or Poles or Lithuanians or Chinese or Koreans or Russians or Portuguese or French or Dutch. We have a problem with Hispanics forcing their way into this country illegally from Mexico, or from Central America by way of Mexico. And right now we have a problem with a flood of Hispanic 'children' who are surging across the southern borders -- and immediately surrendering to the first person they see with a badge -- because the current President of the United States -- without the consent of the Congress or the American people -- has all but promised them they can stay.

Please endeavor to get more of a grasp on the issue before you attempt to engage us in debate on the subject.

Cancer research, a laudable, worthwhile endeavor, is not the responsibility of the federal government of the United States. Securing the borders IS the responsibility of the federal government of the United States. I can't say which activity kills more people, and you can't either. What a stupid comparison. I would have thought you could see the difference.

I already pointed out that they are breaking the law. You are really stretching the patience of the powers that be around here by trying to instruct us how we may or may not respond to you.

No, that's merely the way you would like to frame an issue. It's not even "the" issue. It appears that you live in a strange world populated with straw men decorated with apples and oranges.

Hey, I'm personally OK with seatbelt laws, but I sure hate the way you generalize.

Putz.

And that folks is how it's done...

Quote from: The Boo Man... on July 31, 2014, 07:46:29 PM
And that folks is how it's done...

He had another Glenn Ford-esq slap on another lib the other day too.  I think he might have killed him.

Quote from: Darth Fife on July 31, 2014, 03:24:53 PM
There is only one president I know who deported children at the point of a gun...

Hahaha, yes.  I keep forgetting about that, but yes.

This thread reminds me of:

Airplane! Slap