But I thought I'd throw this out, just because. :wink:
Lets say Husein and the leftists completely throw the country into chaos, where they kill Capitalism as we know it.
Should we stop fighting them and help them destroy the country so we can rebuild it?
Say for example we all go on Govt. assistance, milk the system dry to the point of revolution, because there won't be any money anyway considering inflation will have already made the dollar worthless.
I know it sounds extreme, but assume for a moment these idiots follow through with the Marxist plan, what have we too lose?
Disclaimer: I don't really think it will come to that, but I thought it my be good to hash it out anyway.
That's the Cloward & Piven and those instituting it are betting that the end will be Communism with a totalitarian DICTATOR and not a rebirth of the Republic. Once the People become fully dependent on the Godvernment, they lose the desire to become self-sufficient. They will prefer "Security" over Freedom. I think they're right.
The USA as it was given to us will never again be duplicated through revolution.
Lets face facts...the system is going to be imploding no matter what they do or we do to stop it....no socialist system in history has survived...
Look at Europe, look at the Soviets union look at...well you get the idea.
Like it or not thats what we got. Even if Romney had won I doubt he could have reversed it, maybe delayed it but there are too many commies in the Govt and Congress to reverse it.
What you seriously got to think about is YOUR OWN WELL BEING and that of those closest to you when the system does collapse...prepare for the worst.
That is what I am planning for.
They other thing is...I'm sure there is gonna be blood, as divided as we are there is gonna be a fight, I can feel it.
Billy
I refuse to be complacent or complicit in the destruction of the country. People like Obama are so invested in their dreams and ideology that they won't even let reality or history stand in their way. One only needs to look at the failure of socialism and communism in the past to see that it is quite evident that these systems always fail. Socialism doesn't spread wealth, it destroys wealth and prevents wealth from being created. Sure socialism would be a viable option if the only issue was who has control of an infinite amount of wealth. But the issue is not simply about distribution, it is about creation as well; there simply is not a bottomless pot of gold from which to keep drawing money, wealth has to be created and wealth is created best in a capitalist system.
I won't contribute to the madness, but I will prepare for the chaos that will ensue once we hit breaking point and it will be some time soon. Economic crises are inevitable, what we have experienced in the past few years and are still experiencing will not be the worst of what we will see. I doubt a populace that has become so dependent on government as the one in Obama's America will be able to survive another major economic crisis without causing significant civil unrest. When food stamps lose their value people will be rioting, when people lose all their other entitlements, they will riot. And who will they direct their rage at? They should hold those who put them in a position to be dependent accountable, but we all know they will point their fingers at "the rich" the very people who had been financing their entitlement all along, the people who are constantly told to "pay their fair share" when 47% of the country pays no share.
When speaking of fellow citizens who go along with Obama's vision, I think we are essentially talking to zombies. These people seem to have the most mundane value system, and distorted concepts of justice and freedom. For them, freedom is not the right to self determination, protection from oppression, or the right to pursue happiness. For these zombies, freedom is to be free of things that inconvenience them. They want to be free from responsibility, free from duty, free from sacrifice, free from hardship. And in regards to justice, their conception of justice is not equality under the law, trial by jury, and a system of reasonable ethics. Their conception of justice is to demand from the government what they want at the expense of someone else because they feel they deserve it. These conceptions of freedom and justice are the hallmarks of a civilization that is doomed.
Quote from: BILLY Defiant on November 21, 2012, 04:25:05 PM
there is gonna be a fight, I can feel it.
Who, IYO, is going to fight who?
Quote from: hfishjr81 on November 21, 2012, 06:51:07 PM
Who, IYO, is going to fight who?
IMO the fight will be between those that have prepared for the coming collapse and are able to survive (stored food etc.) and those that have not that will be looking to steal the fruits of the labor of others.
Quote from: rich_t on November 24, 2012, 02:52:14 PM
IMO the fight will be between those that have prepared for the coming collapse and are able to survive (stored food etc.) and those that have not that will be looking to steal the fruits of the labor of others.
Anyone who is actually prepared enough to store food is very likely to also store guns and ammos, wouldn't be much of a fight IMO. :cool:
Quote from: hfishjr81 on November 21, 2012, 06:51:07 PM
Who, IYO, is going to fight who?
On the one side you will have the highest "have nots", those who have the least and want the most and will be willing to use force to get it
prompted by leftist radicals and the lawless who will blame all failures on 'the rich'...the 'rich' being anyone who has more than they do
and does not beleive the Govt should be taking it away to finance their need.
The largest portion will be those who "have"....trying to hang on to what little they have, want to be left alone but are frustrated to no end with creeping totlitarian socialism.
You can look at how the States themselves line up and pretty much predict where this will all start.
Billy
Quote from: BILLY Defiant on November 24, 2012, 05:24:43 PM
On the one side you will have the highest "have nots", those who have the least and want the most and will be willing to use force to get it
prompted by leftist radicals and the lawless who will blame all failures on 'the rich'...the 'rich' being anyone who has more than they do
and does not beleive the Govt should be taking it away to finance their need.
The largest portion will be those who "have"....trying to hang on to what little they have, want to be left alone but are frustrated to no end with creeping totlitarian socialism.
You can look at how the States themselves line up and pretty much predict where this will all start.
Billy
I think it will come from a few fronts, those you listed, but also from foreign shores too. Foreigners that want a submissive US will take the opportunity to attack while we are down too. Perhaps a collection of Arab nations, perhaps China.
Quote from: rocca on November 24, 2012, 05:12:27 PM
Anyone who is actually prepared enough to store food is very likely to also store guns and ammos, wouldn't be much of a fight IMO. :cool:
Criminals that already steal from others don't have guns?
Don't underestimate the arms of those intent of taking what you have.
Quote from: JustKari on November 24, 2012, 06:17:19 PM
I think it will come from a few fronts, those you listed, but also from foreign shores too. Foreigners that want a submissive US will take the opportunity to attack while we are down too. Perhaps a collection of Arab nations, perhaps China.
Not as long as they have Hussein doing the job for them. :wink:
I really don't see it all that wide spread, I see liberal hubs like NY and LA, SF, Detroit to name a few, but the rest of us will ban together and hunker down while they burn their cities to the ground.
Once they tire of fighting, they will start begging, though some will venture out to the rural areas, but not in any numbers of strength.
They would be easy to pick off anyway.
Quote from: JustKari on November 24, 2012, 06:17:19 PM
I think it will come from a few fronts, those you listed, but also from foreign shores too. Foreigners that want a submissive US will take the opportunity to attack while we are down too. Perhaps a collection of Arab nations, perhaps China.
That is why we have to pay close attention to the influence of
Foreigners (Islamofacists) and the
Illegals, trust me you don't have to worry about China sending an invasion force....just the oppossite in fact. Any fighting is likely to be done with the already established invasion force from S. America joining the radical left...the ones that have the armed criminal gangs and already are trying to control several S. American nations and Mexico via a narcoterrorist insurgency.
Billy
Quote from: BILLY Defiant on November 21, 2012, 04:25:05 PM
Lets face facts...the system is going to be imploding no matter what they do or we do to stop it....no socialist system in history has survived...
Look at Europe, look at the Soviets union look at...well you get the idea.
Like it or not thats what we got. Even if Romney had won I doubt he could have reversed it, maybe delayed it but there are too many commies in the Govt and Congress to reverse it.
What you seriously got to think about is YOUR OWN WELL BEING and that of those closest to you when the system does collapse...prepare for the worst.
That is what I am planning for.
They other thing is...I'm sure there is gonna be blood, as divided as we are there is gonna be a fight, I can feel it.
Billy
On this reply, my huband and i totally agree with you. We feel the unrest each day that passes with more of what we call "socialistic events". We haven't seen anything yet that describes what we think will happen when the bottom does fall out but a plan will have to be in place for each family and these families might have a sporting chance but only if they act quickly. I'm like most conservatives, I don't want the worst to come but i believe it's what it will take to recover if even then. We have stood idly by why all of the democrats have entrenched themselves with their progressive ideas into every area of our lives. We are paying a dear price but we still have to fight all that we don't agree with or become just exactly what we hate.
Quote from: Solar on November 24, 2012, 06:41:05 PM
Not as long as they have Hussein doing the job for them. :wink:
I really don't see it all that wide spread, I see liberal hubs like NY and LA, SF, Detroit to name a few, but the rest of us will ban together and hunker down while they burn their cities to the ground.
Once they tire of fighting, they will start begging, though some will venture out to the rural areas, but not in any numbers of strength.
They would be easy to pick off anyway.
It would be nice if you were right... but we've become a nation of 310 million, and (IMO) 99.5% have less than 14 days storage of food and fuel. If a complete and nationwide crisis hit, where civil order completely broke down... we would have a massive problem. If a person lives within 100 miles of any city of 100,000+, people
will forage,
will branch out and take whatever they find. No one is going to sit at home and peacefully watch their children starve, if it comes to that.
If you live in Montana, in some of the deep rural areas, sure... but that's not the case, for 95% of people.
If it all breaks down, there will be blood...
(where have I heard that before?) :smile:
Don't underestimate the other side folks...they are better organized than you think, they'll also use technology (hackers) to attack us and destroy our communications, so don't get too hung up on one form of communications like computers and cell phones...remember the old CB radio... :wink:
It won't all be inner city wastrels engaging in food riots.
Billy
Quote from: Lemondrop on November 26, 2012, 04:43:19 PM
It would be nice if you were right... but we've become a nation of 310 million, and (IMO) 99.5% have less than 14 days storage of food and fuel. If a complete and nationwide crisis hit, where civil order completely broke down... we would have a massive problem. If a person lives within 100 miles of any city of 100,000+, people will forage, will branch out and take whatever they find. No one is going to sit at home and peacefully watch their children starve, if it comes to that.
If you live in Montana, in some of the deep rural areas, sure... but that's not the case, for 95% of people.
If it all breaks down, there will be blood... (where have I heard that before?) :smile:
Your city people will turn on each other first.
I believe that people are capitalists by nature.
I also believe that they are basically good, by nature, and are very good at adapting to changing circumstances. If humans were as violent and greedy as some seem to think, I very much doubt we would have survived as a species long enough to invent the wheel!
Will there be looting and theft, sure, but even today, with our intact, civilized society, there is crime.
I feel that, for the most part, people will barter for what they need - some will grow their own food, etc. Others will put their own talents to use in whatever way serves them best, and they will shop out those talents to others who need them in exchange for things they need, but don't have.
I sincerely doubt that we will be facing a Mad Maxesque dystopian future - as fun as that would be!
Quote from: Lemondrop on November 26, 2012, 04:43:19 PM
It would be nice if you were right... but we've become a nation of 310 million, and (IMO) 99.5% have less than 14 days storage of food and fuel. If a complete and nationwide crisis hit, where civil order completely broke down... we would have a massive problem. If a person lives within 100 miles of any city of 100,000+, people will forage, will branch out and take whatever they find. No one is going to sit at home and peacefully watch their children starve, if it comes to that.
If you live in Montana, in some of the deep rural areas, sure... but that's not the case, for 95% of people.
If it all breaks down, there will be blood... (where have I heard that before?) :smile:
I have to agree with Darth in that people find safety in numbers and generally look for ways to barter and work together, rather than lose 100 million years of growth.
Also one has to consider the possible
impending meltdown :rolleyes: would never happen everywhere simultaneously, it would start slowly in pockets of big cities, where in most cases would be manageable.
Consider this scenario over months and years, certain areas getting worse and worse, people move out of the area because of spreading crime, many move to other states that don't have these problems.
Now assuming it spreads to where entire cities are collapsing, we still have a functioning govt, one with a National Guard that can enforce some semblance of structure and contain the problem and feed them.
But to assume these idiots, idiots that weren't smart enough to feed themselves in the first place and give them credit to organize into a mob that would actually accomplish anything?
It's not like they have a real enemy outside of their hunger, it's not like North Korea is invading the country in uniform, their enemy is actually each other, so they won't be banding together to invade other areas that remain untouched.
The only way the entire country can be affected simultaneously, is if we were hit with a nuclear attack, pandemic natural disaster like a volcano covering 2/3rds of the planet, something that hits all of us equally at once, otherwise most of us will prepare for tough times, I know I have, we now have a two years supply of everything we use.
IMO...
Good ideas, everyone. Personally, i have to adhere to the idea of getting a plan ready to use in a few minutes notice. I'll describe my fears. Panic is one of my concerns. Those that have refused to accept the ideas as suggested here and countless other opinions of the impending dangers to our whole society will most likely panic in the initial disorder. This will lead to dangers for those of us who will try to make the best of our situations. The trouble will be worse in bigger towns and cities but it will be everywhere because of unpreparedness of the citizens in each place. I like the plan mentioned by some here of organized effort to keep going. I can't say publically to what extent and where or even who all is involved in the scenario that my "sheriff' and I are involved with but it just makes good sense to prepare for the worst case scenario.
What is most troubling to me is the apathy of people around me that are neighbors or fellow church members, even family members that don't like to talk about such matters. It's like they don't think that we could ever get reduced to such a state. Here's a bulletin, we just got reduced a month ago to such a state where all of this is possible, even probable. I have family members, some in college, that didn't even know about the Benghazi incident until I mentioned it to them. Some of them didn't even vote, and in today's politically flawed elections I might give them a pass on that one. My sister says that anything political isn't discussed at their family dinners on sunday, and she's got one daughter-in-law that requested this as a condition of her continuing to attend the dinners. Can you believe that? True statement and that family of three sons+ spouses are in county jobs, (at least my nephews and bil are).
Does anyone here think that any of these folks are preparing for the liklihood of what we are talking about with a govt. crash? That's just a handfull of folks.
Another concern. Gun and ammo sales have skyrocketed around here. Also, who knows anything about the government's buying up of insane amounts of these items? I hear so much and try to dissect stuff that I hear, but if this is so, what are they doing with all of this stuff and where are they taking it and for what reason?
I have other concerns as well but that's just the tip of the iceberg and it's enough to propel me into a state of readiness. You, at least, like to think that you've prepared your family well enough that these things will be of importance to them. I'm not forgetting the indoctrination they have undergone in the last few years either but it is just now dawning on me how destructive it is, so all I can do is warn them as a parent.
Look to Greece to see our future and somehow they managed to stave off riots where people turn on each other.
Worst case scenario, is hyper inflation, products will still be available, most will cut out of the frivolous crap, like cable TV, second car, insurance payments will cease, people will tighten their budgets.
Point is, it will not happen all at once, so there will be places unaffected, it is the big cities that will have all the headaches, while the rest of us will go on about our daily lives.
I just don't see a doomsday scenario on the horizon....
No one is panicking...Getting a plan together and ORGANIZING just makes sense.
Learn a lesson from both Katrina and Sandy...don't depend on the Govt State Local or Fed...organize and form your own neighborhood/regional contingency plan.
Quote from: Solar on November 27, 2012, 07:48:27 AM
Look to Greece to see our future and somehow they managed to stave off riots where people turn on each other.
Worst case scenario, is hyper inflation, products will still be available, most will cut out of the frivolous crap, like cable TV, second car, insurance payments will cease, people will tighten their budgets.
Point is, it will not happen all at once, so there will be places unaffected, it is the big cities that will have all the headaches, while the rest of us will go on about our daily lives.
I just don't see a doomsday scenario on the horizon....
Neither do I.
However, I do see an increasingly authoritarian society run in accordance with Communist ideology. I see defacto nationalization of more and more industries - especially energy and transportation. Stricter control of communication and entertainment - including a return to the so-called Fairness Doctrine.
It will be a long time (if ever) before America once again resembles the Republic visualized by our founders. And it will take decades of selfless toil and sacrifice if we are ever to achieve Victory.
Quote from: Darth Fife on November 27, 2012, 06:19:23 PM
Neither do I.
However, I do see an increasingly authoritarian society run in accordance with Communist ideology. I see defacto nationalization of more and more industries - especially energy and transportation. Stricter control of communication and entertainment - including a return to the so-called Fairness Doctrine.
It will be a long time (if ever) before America once again resembles the Republic visualized by our founders. And it will take decades of selfless toil and sacrifice if we are ever to achieve Victory.
respectfully...I call this the "Hopefa" position...as in 'hope fa' the best
in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary...something akin to denial which is most severe among the Libs. I can understand it as our faith in the US is unshakable but as a realist I look at the The numbers...they key is in the numbers...we can't sustain the debt and the additional spending.
The system will fail and somebody won't get a paycheck...the braintrusts in washington will decide who...then the 'fun' begins.
Billy
Quote from: BILLY Defiant on November 27, 2012, 06:41:22 PM
respectfully...I call this the "Hopefa" position...as in 'hope fa' the best
in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary...something akin to denial which is most severe among the Libs. I can understand it as our faith in the US is unshakable but as a realist I look at the The numbers...they key is in the numbers...we can't sustain the debt and the additional spending.
The system will fail and somebody won't get a paycheck...the braintrusts in washington will decide who...then the 'fun' begins.
Billy
Perhaps you are right...
Either way, I am prepared! :wink:
Quote from: Darth Fife on November 27, 2012, 06:45:09 PM
Perhaps you are right...
Either way, I am prepared! :wink:
Good, always prepare for the worst!
Billy
Quote from: Solar on November 21, 2012, 01:45:46 PM
But I thought I'd throw this out, just because. :wink:
Lets say Husein and the leftists completely throw the country into chaos, where they kill Capitalism as we know it.
Should we stop fighting them and help them destroy the country so we can rebuild it?
Say for example we all go on Govt. assistance, milk the system dry to the point of revolution, because there won't be any money anyway considering inflation will have already made the dollar worthless.
I know it sounds extreme, but assume for a moment these idiots follow through with the Marxist plan, what have we too lose?
Disclaimer: I don't really think it will come to that, but I thought it my be good to hash it out anyway.
That sounds like a welfare version of Atlas Shrugged. :wink:
In seriousness, though, maybe "shrugging" is the best choice. I personally plan to reduce my financial support for the state in any way I can. I may not be Atlass, but I'm "shrugging" nonetheless.