Quote from: Billy's bayonet on May 01, 2015, 05:34:02 PM
I'm not sure how we "bail out the wealthy" at the expense of the middle class....the middle class uses banks, consumes the products the "wealthy" produce....including Gas and other forms of energy the wealthy produce...well so do the lower class.

So "bailing" out the wealthy (corporations) is actually bailing out all of us.

Specifically what the Govt can do to help the middle class is LOWER TAXES ON EVERYONE and scale down big govt who enforces a myriad of regulations that negative impact big business and commerce thereby driving up costs to the consumer even more.

If we really wanted everyone to pay their fair share we go to a flat tax of like ten percent, that way everyone would pay their fair share at a fair rate.

Then again do away with income taxes and go to something like a VAT which is really a consumer tax...that way EVERYBODY pays taxes on what they consume....even visitors and illegals

Excellent post, Billy.

For far too long half of this country has paid virtually no taxes... except sales taxes.

They love to say "spread the wealth."   Well, I say, "spread the taxes!"

Quote from: Billy's bayonet on May 01, 2015, 05:34:02 PM
I'm not sure how we "bail out the wealthy" at the expense of the middle class....the middle class uses banks, consumes the products the "wealthy" produce....including Gas and other forms of energy the wealthy produce...well so do the lower class.

So "bailing" out the wealthy (corporations) is actually bailing out all of us.

Specifically what the Govt can do to help the middle class is LOWER TAXES ON EVERYONE and scale down big govt who enforces a myriad of regulations that negative impact big business and commerce thereby driving up costs to the consumer even more.

If we really wanted everyone to pay their fair share we go to a flat tax of like ten percent, that way everyone would pay their fair share at a fair rate.

Then again do away with income taxes and go to something like a VAT which is really a consumer tax...that way EVERYBODY pays taxes on what they consume....even visitors and illegals

I agree, with the exception of a VAT. It forces business to report to the Fed at every level of production so it can assess value in the form of tax.
Way, way to much intrusion, as well as a completely new level of bureaucracy to the IRS.

Quote from: Solar on May 01, 2015, 06:04:58 PM
I agree, with the exception of a VAT. It forces business to report to the Fed at every level of production so it can assess value in the form of tax.
Way, way to much intrusion, as well as a completely new level of bureaucracy to the IRS.

I agree.  Although the VAT would be best for me personally, I believe the flat tax would be much more fair for everyone.

Quote from: kroz on May 01, 2015, 07:20:58 PM
I agree.  Although the VAT would be best for me personally, I believe the flat tax would be much more fair for everyone.

Nope, a VAT punishes the end user, and in most cases the product will cost 30% more by the time it hits the shelves.
A Fair tax would probably be the best across the board. The poor will gain the most in a fair tax system, since there wouldn't be a tax on used items sold between private parties.

Where did sjtoss go?

Quote from: kit saginaw on April 30, 2015, 08:18:58 PM
omg, what a conversational dilemma...  Next time, demonstrate the motivations that formulated her thought-processeez so we can see the flaws in her logic, and respond to them accordingly. Otherwise, you sound like a hillary-plant.   

My initial thought as well.  What a way to start off.

Quote from: walkstall on May 01, 2015, 08:37:50 PM


Where did sjtoss go?

"Plants" eventually die. 

Quote from: Solar on May 01, 2015, 08:24:17 PM
Nope, a VAT punishes the end user, and in most cases the product will cost 30% more by the time it hits the shelves.
A Fair tax would probably be the best across the board. The poor will gain the most in a fair tax system, since there wouldn't be a tax on used items sold between private parties.

A VAT only makes a simple solution to cumbersome. Politicians love VAT because they are hidden taxes. Just a sales tax is a much better solution.

Quote from: supsalemgr on May 02, 2015, 05:26:08 AM
A VAT only makes a simple solution to cumbersome. Politicians love VAT because they are hidden taxes. Just a sales tax is a much better solution.

Yep, a VAT is a cancer on production from it's day of inception, to day of sale.

Far better to reduce the size of government and cut taxes across the board.

Quote from: red_dirt on May 02, 2015, 07:15:20 AM
Far better to reduce the size of government and cut taxes across the board.

Yep, and adding bureaucracy as in a VAT system is antithesis to that objective.

Quote from: Solar on May 02, 2015, 08:00:16 AM
Yep, and adding bureaucracy as in a VAT system is antithesis to that objective.

One of the most attractive features (in my mind) about the Fair Tax is its linkage to the complete elimination of income taxes, payroll taxes, etc., even to the point of de-funding the IRS and incorporating a constitutional amendment to make those things stick. In other words, it's designed as a replacement method of funding the federal government. By contrast, I haven't seen a VAT proposal from anyone that would actually do away with any other taxes.

I think the fundamental truth everyone should understand when it comes to tax policy is that it has to be carefully and thoughtfully crafted. As a nation, we passed the Sixteenth Amendment which authorized the modern federal income tax in 1913, and the government immediately put an income tax in place with the top marginal rate at 7%. Just five years later, using that same amendment as authorization, the top marginal rate had risen to 77%. There is absolutely no constitutional prohibition against income taxes at 100% or higher, and marginal rates have been as high as 94% in the past. The top rate was still 91% in 1963, and remained at or above 70% until Reagan took office in 1981.

Actually, the very first income tax was instituted in 1862 to fund the Civil War. Without question, it was unconstitutional, but it took more than thirty years to make it to the Supreme Court (in 1895), where it was overturned.

Quote from: TboneAgain on May 02, 2015, 09:12:21 AM
One of the most attractive features (in my mind) about the Fair Tax is its linkage to the complete elimination of income taxes, payroll taxes, etc., even to the point of de-funding the IRS and incorporating a constitutional amendment to make those things stick. In other words, it's designed as a replacement method of funding the federal government. By contrast, I haven't seen a VAT proposal from anyone that would actually do away with any other taxes.

I think the fundamental truth everyone should understand when it comes to tax policy is that it has to be carefully and thoughtfully crafted. As a nation, we passed the Sixteenth Amendment which authorized the modern federal income tax in 1913, and the government immediately put an income tax in place with the top marginal rate at 7%. Just five years later, using that same amendment as authorization, the top marginal rate had risen to 77%. There is absolutely no constitutional prohibition against income taxes at 100% or higher, and marginal rates have been as high as 94% in the past. The top rate was still 91% in 1963, and remained at or above 70% until Reagan took office in 1981.

Actually, the very first income tax was instituted in 1862 to fund the Civil War. Without question, it was unconstitutional, but it took more than thirty years to make it to the Supreme Court (in 1895), where it was overturned.

Exactly true. VAT only grows govt control over the free mkt and the private sector, while a fair tax eliminates, all of that.

The problem with modifying the tax laws (even to make them simpler) is that they can be easily re-modified.

How about a Constitutional Amendment that sets a hard limit on what all forms of government is allowed to take from citizens in an aggregate?

In other words, when you combine all deductions - local, state, and Federal together they can equal no more than 15% of any citizens income - regardless of how much that income is.

Quote from: Darth Fife on May 02, 2015, 04:33:42 PM
The problem with modifying the tax laws (even to make them simpler) is that they can be easily re-modified.

How about a Constitutional Amendment that sets a hard limit on what all forms of government is allowed to take from citizens in an aggregate?

In other words, when you combine all deductions - local, state, and Federal together they can equal no more than 15% of any citizens income - regardless of how much that income is.

With the imbalance in states receiving Fed subsidies, what you propose is unachievable.
A fair tax eliminates the Fed altogether, leaving the states to dole out the taxes to the Fed, not the other way around.