Quote from: Gunbunny42 on August 15, 2017, 09:08:41 PM
The problem is people don't want basic coverage anymore. They want their pre existing conditions covered, they want their kids covered till they're 26 ( why should insurance deal with someone else's kids is beyond me), they want the free birth control ,Viagra, the whole deal! It's this culture of dependency that needs to be combative otherwise nothing long lasting can ever get done.

No one would stop them either, the only difference is, you won't be subsidizing their BS plan.
They can still pay out the ass if they want, it'll just cost them more that's all.

Quote Topside:
Yes. Agreed. So the question is how you convince the voting body that affordable health care means that you can only cover so many maladies. Certainly not every pre-existing condition.
Yes - that's our hope. But we need Plans A, B, C, D, ... We should be coming up with ideas that can improve the situation under the current governance. These plans could succeed ... or not. There is a much better conservative position now than there was a year ago and we should try to coerce it to conservative values and results.

Quote Solar:
Allow insurance to offer the most basic of coverage, it really is that simple, assuming there is no govt interference, I would be allowed to purchace anything my imagination could create, even covering one office doctor visit a year and all labs.[/color

The free market can offer the most basic coverage - that is the lowest price offer. They could also choose many other mixes. As you said, anything you could imagine. Different pools would come with different costs so the companies could sustain the product they offer. It's free market - pure and simple. That's where we want to get. We want a clean repeal to get there.

The suggestion I put forth is to encourage constituents and congress to do a clean repeal - that means to repeal Obamacare and eliminate government from meddling in our HC. Clean repeal removes government involvement. That's what I'm going for. Simply to add impetus to move those who are obstacles toward clean repeal. That's all I've said in the last few posts.

Quote Topside:
So much can go wrong and turn the tides against 2018. What if wars break out and the economy craters? Then the Dims get control back? I'm not so confident that 2018 belongs to the conservatives. I even believe it's in our favor for now but so much can change.

Quote Solar:
Because nothing is going to change the ire of the nation.

I don't think you really believe that as a whole. The ire of the conservative minority won't change. And the ire of the leftists seems to stick together. But those who are twisting in the wind will blow with whatever fits them best at the time. The primary motivator is economy. And if the economy turns, the pubs will lose their small advantage. IMO it's not a given that the conservatives will gain in 2017 - not even likely.

Quote
Topside: But - have it your way Solar. Let's just grouse about the Marxist Dims. Let's blame the RINOs (rightfully) for killing the full repeal. Let's be embarrassed that the Pubs had no real plan to get HC repeal done. Let's just stand by and do nothing now - and hope something changes in 2018. And if it doesn't go our way, we can blame the Dims and RINO's again while the constitution continues to burn.

Quote Solar:
Lets say I don't want to buy HC for the next 40 years, does the country need a Bill stating so?
Does the country need a Bill telling us what cars we should be allowed to buy?
No, and I don't want the govt dictating in any matter. Point is, you are still under the illusion that a Bill of any kind is necessary, but when you stop and think about it, regardless of what the Bill is attempting to protect, it's shackling someone else at the expense of another.

Not sure why you keep bringing up a Bill. We're working for clean repeal of a corrosive law. We don't need a Bill. I've not suggested it once in this thread. The point to a clean HC repeal is to get the government out of our personal lives on HC.

Quote Topside:
Sup ... yes, the GOP is afraid they will lose control. If things go well in this administration, they may NOT lose control and we end up with more years of RINOs. We need more than one strategy on any given issue, including HC. It's not easy - it never is easy to do the right thing because there are always those who want to take the easy way and hope someone else will figure it out for them.

Quote Solar:
I don't think you have yet to explain this so called strategy beyond standing our ground and holdiniug these Marxists accountavble.

Now we're getting somewhere. I did not give a substantive approach but only a general idea to gain feedback. In thinking about your reply, you have hit on what I think is the key to an approach that could gain traction. It's all about the money. If the HC industry would establish a plan (not a Bill) and publish prices that were favorable to most of the industry then there would be some real pressure to repeal. Trump and the conservatives could help the HC industry publicize the huge savings over Obamacare in the free market. A minority would lose out on their plan as not all pre-existing conditions would be covered but the MAJORITY would see a substantive reduction in costs. Posting competitive plans would also get the insurance companies on-board for fear of losing out to their competitors. I understand that it's inherently true, but it would be made plain an simple and explained for those who don't seem to get it. Now, Congress would still likely vote against the clean repeal because of the RINOs - the voices of the constituents would probably not be enough. Certainly putting Congress on Obamacare would help move the vote in the right direction too. If we could get both the straight reduction in costs publicized and Congress on Obamacare then we'd have a fighting chance of getting the clean repeal.

Quote Topside:
The thing to do is to pick the best model and work with it. But also choose several alternate conditions and try and optimize under those assumptions too. My best prediction (model) is the Status Quo model - that at this point is that Trump will continue to build business in the economy. The left will continue to attack at every opportunity. Wars will continue, the economy will hold up and the voters will put similar RINOs back in at the 2018 election. So that's the model I believe we need to face.

Quote Solar:
See, there you go again, asking Conservatives to compromise their principles out of fear.

I've not ask for one thing that compromises the values of the conservatives. Not one. I'm not sure where you are reading that. This only is saying that we should try to do something to move toward a clean repeal now - that is aligned with Conservative values. And we should work for it now because my best prediction is that Conservatives won't get gains in 2018. If we do, it will be easier. But we need to work more than one plan.

Quote Topside:
Meanwhile, I'll be praying that conservatives gain strength and be the most elated if my status-quo model is wrong. I still believe God intervened to put HiLIARy out and he might choose to do it again if the faithful come to him in humility and ask him to rescue us. But dealing with the alternative isn't a lack of faith. It's understanding the hearts that have shown in our nation to worship themselves; a heart that needs to be turned toward the creator.

Quote Solar:

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Ben Franklin.

In other words, you rely on govt to do the right thing while usurping your Freedom to choose and willingly give up Liberty to an oppressor.
Stop empowering govt! The Bill of Rights was written quite clearly, that the Fed has zero say in a set of Ten Enumerated Rights, yet what did these Bozos do the moment govt attempted to usurp said Rights?
They empowered the very entity barred from  interference of said Rights to decide what their Rights were and allowed it to set parameters, which is why we have so many issues surround the 2nd.

I have not once said that govt. should be involved in HC. Or with most other aspects of our lives. Govt. should stick with military and infrastructure - the rest moves to the state and local level. Even then, there should be limited involvement with our personal lives - for example with HC. HC should be governed by the free market. We're on the same page.

Quote Solar:
So I'll ask again, why do you want the very entity that's trying to control what you purchase on the open market, the power to dictate what's good for you?

Let me be as clear as possible. We Don't need govt permission to purtchase anything, or when and what we buy, that is the Conservative message of this forum!

HC on the open market - that's my stance too. No govt. involvement in our HC. Agreed. Govt. will only screw it up and steal from us. We don't want or need govt. involvement. We're in violent agreement. Not sure where you picking up that I think otherwise. But I think it's cleared up now.

The silver lining in this post is the idea of using the financial saving of free market HC to motivate a clean repeal. I think Trump and the conservative congress might be able to make progress if they used our idea or a derivative.

Quote from: topside on August 16, 2017, 05:25:18 AM
The free market can offer the most basic coverage - that is the lowest price offer. They could also choose many other mixes. As you said, anything you could imagine. Different pools would come with different costs so the companies could sustain the product they offer. It's free market - pure and simple. That's where we want to get. We want a clean repeal to get there.

The suggestion I put forth is to encourage constituents and congress to do a clean repeal - that means to repeal Obamacare and eliminate government from meddling in our HC. Clean repeal removes government involvement. That's what I'm going for. Simply to add impetus to move those who are obstacles toward clean repeal. That's all I've said in the last few posts.

I don't think you really believe that as a whole. The ire of the conservative minority won't change. And the ire of the leftists seems to stick together. But those who are twisting in the wind will blow with whatever fits them best at the time. The primary motivator is economy. And if the economy turns, the pubs will lose their small advantage. IMO it's not a given that the conservatives will gain in 2017 - not even likely.

Not sure why you keep bringing up a Bill. We're working for clean repeal of a corrosive law. We don't need a Bill. I've not suggested it once in this thread. The point to a clean HC repeal is to get the government out of our personal lives on HC.

Now we're getting somewhere. I did not give a substantive approach but only a general idea to gain feedback. In thinking about your reply, you have hit on what I think is the key to an approach that could gain traction. It's all about the money. If the HC industry would establish a plan (not a Bill) and publish prices that were favorable to most of the industry then there would be some real pressure to repeal. Trump and the conservatives could help the HC industry publicize the huge savings over Obamacare in the free market. A minority would lose out on their plan as not all pre-existing conditions would be covered but the MAJORITY would see a substantive reduction in costs. Posting competitive plans would also get the insurance companies on-board for fear of losing out to their competitors. I understand that it's inherently true, but it would be made plain an simple and explained for those who don't seem to get it. Now, Congress would still likely vote against the clean repeal because of the RINOs - the voices of the constituents would probably not be enough. Certainly putting Congress on Obamacare would help move the vote in the right direction too. If we could get both the straight reduction in costs publicized and Congress on Obamacare then we'd have a fighting chance of getting the clean repeal.

I've not ask for one thing that compromises the values of the conservatives. Not one. I'm not sure where you are reading that. This only is saying that we should try to do something to move toward a clean repeal now - that is aligned with Conservative values. And we should work for it now because my best prediction is that Conservatives won't get gains in 2018. If we do, it will be easier. But we need to work more than one plan.

I have not once said that govt. should be involved in HC. Or with most other aspects of our lives. Govt. should stick with military and infrastructure - the rest moves to the state and local level. Even then, there should be limited involvement with our personal lives - for example with HC. HC should be governed by the free market. We're on the same page.

HC on the open market - that's my stance too. No govt. involvement in our HC. Agreed. Govt. will only screw it up and steal from us. We don't want or need govt. involvement. We're in violent agreement. Not sure where you picking up that I think otherwise. But I think it's cleared up now.

The silver lining in this post is the idea of using the financial saving of free market HC to motivate a clean repeal. I think Trump and the conservative congress might be able to make progress if they used our idea or a derivative.

There you go again. You now claim it's not a bill, yet it needs to be enforced because the HC industry as it stands, is nothing more than a middle man, an entity that takes money from one individual and gives a portion to the one doing the actual services.
There's a reason the insurance Co's don't want govt out of the HC industry, govt guarantees profit.

Commiecare wasn't HC either, it was govt enforced insurance, we the people were forced to buy at exorbitant rates to offset the cost so others didn't have to pay.
Don't make the mistake of thinking insurance agencies are in some way actual Healthcare, they are not, they are simply brokers taking a cut of the pie whether you need it or not.
You can dance all you like, but this still looks like the leftist two step being performed with two left feet, and the fact remains, you want some form of HC enforced.
There is but one way to assure lower costs for all Americans, get Govt the fuck out of the way, completely!!!

Quote from: Solar on August 16, 2017, 05:45:56 AM
There you go again. You now claim it's not a bill, yet it needs to be enforced because the HC industry as it stands, is nothing more than a middle man, an entity that takes money from one individual and gives a portion to the one doing the actual services.
There's a reason the insurance Co's don't want govt out of the HC industry, govt guarantees profit.

Commiecare wasn't HC either, it was govt enforced insurance, we the people were forced to buy at exorbitant rates to offset the cost so others didn't have to pay.
Don't make the mistake of thinking insurance agencies are in some way actual Healthcare, they are not, they are simply brokers taking a cut of the pie whether you need it or not.
You can dance all you like, but this still looks like the leftist two step being performed with two left feet, and the fact remains, you want some form of HC enforced.
There is but one way to assure lower costs for all Americans, get Govt the fuck out of the way, completely!!!

Nailed it! 

Politicians have conveniently blurred the lines between health insurance and healthcare. They are very different subjects. The insurance companies are "for profit" entities. The CEO's primary responsibility is deliver a profit for the stockholders. When the government guaranteed a profit the CEO's would have remiss not to jump on the opportunity.

Quote from: supsalemgr on August 16, 2017, 08:19:52 AM
Nailed it! 

Politicians have conveniently blurred the lines between health insurance and healthcare. They are very different subjects. The insurance companies are "for profit" entities. The CEO's primary responsibility is deliver a profit for the stockholders. When the government guaranteed a profit the CEO's would have remiss not to jump on the opportunity.

Exactly! I have no issue with insurance Co's, they fulfill a very needed service, but they don't need assistance from Govt.
Just imagine going to a hospital and buying one of their personal packages for HC, though it would only be good for that single hospital, making it a fraction of the cost of a national policy, then imagine a hand full of hospitals working out an agreement to cover each others patients policies, as Kaiser does today.
If anything, it is the health industry, doctors, and hospitals that need to be unchained even more, by limiting trial lawyers profit margins and a number of payouts courts grant as punitive, instead recompensive.

Thing is, when you punish hospitals and doctors, you punish those that pay for services, but when you recompense the victim, you punish the doctor for their mistakes to the point no insurance Co. will bond them.
Many times the hospital is drug into the equation simply because it happened on their grounds, and far too often, they are the deep pocket targets trial lawyers go after, causing all of our costs to rise.

In principle we don't need the insurance companies - I agree with that too. In fact, I don't have traditional insurance - have Medishare as I've said prior.

But the insurance companies are so intertwined with HC that they are synonymous. At some of the offices I've recently visited, I tried to just pay directly without going through any other organization. The offices didn't know what to do with it. I was blown away. I know that's not everyone, but it is many HC providers and probably almost all hospitals.

I tried to put forward a possible idea to do SOMETHING to entice a full repeal. But you just want to argue about an alternative universe absent from the reality we live in now. Let's just sit around and whine about the repeal failure and hope the Easter Bunny gives us a Conservative Congress in 2018. No need to respond - I'm tired of wasting my energy on this thread. You've missed the whole point and have discouraged a fellow Conservative. No one else seems interested anyway so I'm dropping it.

Quote from: topside on August 16, 2017, 03:47:12 PM
In principle we don't need the insurance companies - I agree with that too. In fact, I don't have traditional insurance - have Medishare as I've said prior.

But the insurance companies are so intertwined with HC that they are synonymous. At some of the offices I've recently visited, I tried to just pay directly without going through any other organization. The offices didn't know what to do with it. I was blown away. I know that's not everyone, but it is many HC providers and probably almost all hospitals.

I tried to put forward a possible idea to do SOMETHING to entice a full repeal. But you just want to argue about an alternative universe absent from the reality we live in now. Let's just sit around and whine about the repeal failure and hope the Easter Bunny gives us a Conservative Congress in 2018. No need to respond - I'm tired of wasting my energy on this thread. You've missed the whole point and have discouraged a fellow Conservative. No one else seems interested anyway so I'm dropping it.

Yeah, that's the Conservative thing to do, run away.
You float this magical illusion that "some kind of "deal" can be struck" yet failed in explaining what that entails. Go ahead, give it a shot, I've been waiting to hear your plan, but all you do is claim that I don't get it, get what?

Here's a simple fact, give them an inch and they'll take 100 miles, then compromise and give you a pittance of what you demand.
We've been down this road the last 3 decades and you still live under the illusion you can work with these scum.

You claim we're in agreement with full repeal, so why are you looking for a compromise with the enemy? You make absolutely no sense whatsoever, because being Conservative means working from a set of core values and principles, and in this case, that means no govt intrusion into the free market place.
Remember how much cheaper HC was before Commiecare? So why in the world, (while we have the RINO on the run), are you willing to give into these scum?

All business works off a profit and loss system and hospitals are one of those entities, doctors too, and they will gladly take cash and give you the best care far cheaper. The cut insurance takes out of his payment for your care is close to half, so you can work a better deal by paying cash yourself, assuming govt doesn't stand in the way.

I get it, you think there's a solution, problem is, it somehow involves govt.
So here's the way it works, you go to a doctor, you pay cash, you need surgery, he calls a hospital, he explains that you are willing to pay cash, they rent him a surgical facility, it's that simple, you just cut out the middle man, the insurance company.

So why in the world are you wanting govt involved in something that's between you, your doctor and the hospital?
Do you even understand this subject? Something tells me you do not and that's why you're tripping and stumbling through this thread.

I get it, you think there's a solution, problem is, it involves govt meddling.

Quote from: supsalemgr on August 16, 2017, 08:19:52 AM
Nailed it! 

Politicians have conveniently blurred the lines between health insurance and healthcare. They are very different subjects. The insurance companies are "for profit" entities. The CEO's primary responsibility is deliver a profit for the stockholders. When the government guaranteed a profit the CEO's would have remiss not to jump on the opportunity.

Exactly Sup, once this debacle took place under the Marxist, people thought letting Govt dictate the rules would somehow simplify and cut costs, in spite of the evidence to the contrary, Medicare for example.
Yet people still fail to grasp the fact that even the tiniest amount of Fed interference, isn't on behalf the people, it's to pay off the crony connection.
Our Founders warned us about growing govt exponentially and the loss of Liberties and Freedom that would entail.

There were no mechanisms in Obmacare to cut costs. In fact as written it prevents premiums from being lowered. Any democrat healthcare plan is all about control.

Quote from: The Boo Man... on August 16, 2017, 06:41:48 PM
There were no mechanisms in Obmacare to cut costs. In fact as written it prevents premiums from being lowered. Any democrat healthcare plan is all about control.

That's why the Establishment wanted to keep in intact.

Quote from: Solar on August 16, 2017, 07:11:59 PM
That's why the Establishment wanted to keep in intact.

Which is ironic on the GOP side because they don't have the energy or the inclination to control anything.

Quote from: The Boo Man... on August 16, 2017, 07:34:30 PM
Which is ironic on the GOP side because they don't have the energy or the inclination to control anything.

Yeah, blame Dims while they sign off on continuing Resolutions/OMNIBUS Bills and further running up our debt, but hey, it was all somehow the Dims fault.

Did I mention just how much I hate Libs? In Both Party's!!!

Quote from: Solar on August 16, 2017, 05:13:31 AM
No one would stop them either, the only difference is, you won't be subsidizing their BS plan.
They can still pay out the ass if they want, it'll just cost them more that's all.

You know as well as I no one is going to want to pay for something they once got for free and they're going to bah like sheep to their Congress critters to keep it that way. It's this selfish mentality that's dooming healthcare in this country 

Quote from: topside on August 15, 2017, 04:41:41 AM
Yes. Agreed. So the question is how you convince the voting body that affordable health care means that you can only cover so many maladies. Certainly not every pre-existing condition.

The pre-existing condition coverage that has been sold is a primary component driving the costs up. But it's become an entitlement and it seems that some in the house and senate can't see that it's unsustainable. That is just one of the symptoms of why HC should not be under govt. control.

Or to put it another way, can we convince congress in 2018 that caving into voting for the few who receive those entitlements and voting against those who pay the taxes for those entitlements is bad for their career? Here's hoping the people paying for those entitlements wake up.

Quote from: Gunbunny42 on August 16, 2017, 09:03:54 PM
You know as well as I no one is going to want to pay for something they once got for free and they're going to bah like sheep to their Congress critters to keep it that way. It's this selfish mentality that's dooming healthcare in this country 

Those freeloaders aren't constituency of the gop'E, so they have no influence, the real culprit is the money backers that want Marxist Medicine, that's who the RNC works for, not the voter, not you or I. This is why we need more than ever to purge the gop'E of Marxists like McStain and Lyndsy Graham, McCONnel etc.
These scum leftist traitors care nothing for the country, nor do they care about the voter, left or right, they care only about their bottom line and the here and now with DC partying.

Remember the argument over taxing medical devices? This was where the RNC/gop'E came into play, exposing how this was always about money and had nothing to do with actually caring for people.

http://thehill.com/blogs/pundits-blog/healthcare/66717-obamacare-endorsements-what-the-bribe-was