Quote from: topside on August 14, 2017, 05:39:17 AM
Most real conservatives, including those on this site, agree that full repeal and returning to a free market is the approach that is best and consistent with conservative values.

We also see that the full repeal isn't happening under the current administration - in the current climate with the existing data in front of the congressional sheep.

Several have identified problems with the approach of bringing in the actual HC market to set up a system to move to. The key flaw cited is that the insurance companies are crony capitalists - it it for one thing ... to fill their pockets at our expense. I'm not so sure it's true that all are, but even if they are can we not find an incentive for them to work toward repeal? Trump set one model - he told companies that they needed to do business in the US ... and now what do we see? What if Trump worked with businesses and told them they needed to work for full repeal which contains the explicit assumption that those who work in his direction will be rewarded and those who don't will be punished. We only threatened to build a wall and immigration went down very substantially; will probably come back up, but the point is that there are other levers that we need to look at on HC.

I feel that Mitch McConnell has become the whipping post. He was told to do the repeal / replace and just get it done. I've worked for so many managers who haven't a clue how and have told their subordinates to get things done. And if they don't come through on the blind demand, they throw gas on them and hit them with the flame thrower. You KNOW Trump is that kind of leader; he gets away with it most of the time because he's on the right side of the matter and has the money / power to persuade it. Rather than beating McConnell senseless, how about someone help him find a path that could work. I haven't followed Mitch's career closely, but I get the sense that he one that works hard in the right direction most of the time.

Get creative Conservatives! These last few posts sound like we're a bunch of victims satisfied to sit on the white lane markers waiting for the next Semi-truck to make road kill of us. Let's find some alternatives and try and coerce our congress toward a full repeal. We need about five senate votes to make that happen.

A real plan from some of those who really know the HC industry - along with publicity that teaches why it's a good approach - might be enough to move the votes. Maybe there is an adjustment to the idea that you can see and I can't - find the carrot to put on the stick and find those in the HC industry for whom our conservative values mean more than raping the public for profit.

My God man, what you're proposing is capitulation, compromise with the enemy. What you don't realize is, by allowing govt any control over the market place, is certain to bring socialized medicine, govt is not our friend, IT IS THE ENEMY!!!
We don't need that bastard interfering in our lives, the less influence it has, the better our lives will be.

You propose the carrot stick approach, yet all I hear is govt threat via stick, while no incentive is offered, so here's one, let insurance Co' cross state lines for a free mkt approach, and guess what? That again means less govt interference.
My entire point is you are somehow under the illusion that the very entity causing strife and turmoil in a free mkt industry can somehow be trusted, when in fact, its very presence is why HC costs went through the roof over the decades.

I remember when Kaiser was $12.00 a month with a $1.00 copay, based on COLA, we should be closer to $60.00 per month, but instead, were at an average $2500.00 per month.

Quote from: topside on August 14, 2017, 05:39:17 AM
Most real conservatives, including those on this site, agree that full repeal and returning to a free market is the approach that is best and consistent with conservative values.

We also see that the full repeal isn't happening under the current administration - in the current climate with the existing data in front of the congressional sheep.

Several have identified problems with the approach of bringing in the actual HC market to set up a system to move to. The key flaw cited is that the insurance companies are crony capitalists - it it for one thing ... to fill their pockets at our expense. I'm not so sure it's true that all are, but even if they are can we not find an incentive for them to work toward repeal? Trump set one model - he told companies that they needed to do business in the US ... and now what do we see? What if Trump worked with businesses and told them they needed to work for full repeal which contains the explicit assumption that those who work in his direction will be rewarded and those who don't will be punished. We only threatened to build a wall and immigration went down very substantially; will probably come back up, but the point is that there are other levers that we need to look at on HC.

I feel that Mitch McConnell has become the whipping post. He was told to do the repeal / replace and just get it done. I've worked for so many managers who haven't a clue how and have told their subordinates to get things done. And if they don't come through on the blind demand, they throw gas on them and hit them with the flame thrower. You KNOW Trump is that kind of leader; he gets away with it most of the time because he's on the right side of the matter and has the money / power to persuade it. Rather than beating McConnell senseless, how about someone help him find a path that could work. I haven't followed Mitch's career closely, but I get the sense that he one that works hard in the right direction most of the time.

Get creative Conservatives! These last few posts sound like we're a bunch of victims satisfied to sit on the white lane markers waiting for the next Semi-truck to make road kill of us. Let's find some alternatives and try and coerce our congress toward a full repeal. We need about five senate votes to make that happen.

A real plan from some of those who really know the HC industry - along with publicity that teaches why it's a good approach - might be enough to move the votes. Maybe there is an adjustment to the idea that you can see and I can't - find the carrot to put on the stick and find those in the HC industry for whom our conservative values mean more than raping the public for profit.

I worked in the insurance industry for 47 years. One has to understand insurance companies are money transfer operations with holding enough for a profit, usually less than 10% of revenues. They will cover anything if they are able to collect enough money to cover expenses and claim payments with the minimal profit. Which leads to the question why they jumped on Obamacare. It was simple. The plan guaranteed no chance of losses through subsidies. Not a bad deal if you an get it.

Quote from: Solar on August 14, 2017, 06:04:26 AM
My God man, what you're proposing is capitulation, compromise with the enemy. What you don't realize is, by allowing govt any control over the market place, is certain to bring socialized medicine, govt is not our friend, IT IS THE ENEMY!!!
We don't need that bastard interfering in our lives, the less influence it has, the better our lives will be.

You propose the carrot stick approach, yet all I hear is govt threat via stick, while no incentive is offered, so here's one, let insurance Co' cross state lines for a free mkt approach, and guess what? That again means less govt interference.
My entire point is you are somehow under the illusion that the very entity causing strife and turmoil in a free mkt industry can somehow be trusted, when in fact, its very presence is why HC costs went through the roof over the decades.

I remember when Kaiser was $12.00 a month with a $1.00 copay, based on COLA, we should be closer to $60.00 per month, but instead, were at an average $2500.00 per month.

  Yes indeed, we should be closer to $60.00/mo for health care.  Government interference in healthcare is not a good thing, IMHO it will only lead to single payer healthcare and an increase in a system already overburdened by countless regulations and record keeping which is exactly what Billy Bob Clinton's universal billing and coding created. In reality HIPAA allowed the government to control the insurance industry, physicians and pharmaceutical companies all under the guise of protected health information.  Your health information is far from protected from the government. Universal billing, coding and sharing of electronic health records isn't limited to the U.S. The World Health Organization has set up electronic health record manuals for developing countries to utilize.

Quote from: Ms.Independence on August 14, 2017, 09:06:39 AM
  Yes indeed, we should be closer to $60.00/mo for health care.  Government interference in healthcare is not a good thing, IMHO it will only lead to single payer healthcare and an increase in a system already overburdened by countless regulations and record keeping which is exactly what Billy Bob Clinton's universal billing and coding created. In reality HIPAA allowed the government to control the insurance industry, physicians and pharmaceutical companies all under the guise of protected health information.  Your health information is far from protected from the government. Universal billing, coding and sharing of electronic health records isn't limited to the U.S. The World Health Organization has set up electronic health record manuals for developing countries to utilize.

Exactly!!!! Bureaucracies cost money and that's all govt interference is, a way of forcing business accountability with needless govt regulations.
Paperwork is a trail anyone can follow, despite HIPPA rules, without a paper trail, HC records would simply return to pre 1970 standards and be private information between doctor and patient.

I've always viewed HC like the Bill of Rights, we don't need governments permission to see a doctor, and by allowing govt intervention, becomes an admittance govt has unapproved power over our health care and how we pursue it.

Solar! Read these two lines again:

QuoteMost real conservatives, including those on this site, agree that full repeal and returning to a free market is the approach that is best and consistent with conservative values.

We also see that the full repeal isn't happening under the current administration - in the current climate with the existing data in front of the congressional sheep.

See ... there is no govt. involvement in the objective. The goal is full repeal. But we need to work with reality to get to the full repeal. How do we get there. Oh - wait until Conservatives control the House, Senate, and Presidency? I think we need ideas that try and move the group we have now toward full repeal no matter how difficult it may seem.

How do we get the five votes more that we need to get it to happen? I'm looking to foster some brainstorming on it. The objective of the approaches I'm vetting is to get the five votes we need for full repeal. Nothing else will do!

Let's come up with something that can move the bar. Ms. Indy contributed some experience - that the industry will insure anything to make a buck. So who can influence that industry to stand for Conservative values instead of crony capitalism in the name of serving our country? Is there no one? Is there no plan that insurance industries can put out that serves our republic? Something that would attract insurance companies over Obamacare? They may make money in the short term, but I doubt if they really want the govt. in their nickers continually.

Assuming it passes it will never make it through the senate.

Quote from: topside on August 14, 2017, 05:27:13 PM
Solar! Read these two lines again:

See ... there is no govt. involvement in the objective. The goal is full repeal. But we need to work with reality to get to the full repeal. How do we get there. Oh - wait until Conservatives control the House, Senate, and Presidency? I think we need ideas that try and move the group we have now toward full repeal no matter how difficult it may seem.

Herein lies the issue, you keep alluding to working out some sort of deal, that would mean capitulation to the leftists in the party, playing right into their hands.
If the camel sticks it nose under the tent, I assure you, it will come all the way in for single payer.

QuoteHow do we get the five votes more that we need to get it to happen? I'm looking to foster some brainstorming on it. The objective of the approaches I'm vetting is to get the five votes we need for full repeal. Nothing else will do!

Let's come up with something that can move the bar. Ms. Indy contributed some experience - that the industry will insure anything to make a buck. So who can influence that industry to stand for Conservative values instead of crony capitalism in the name of serving our country? Is there no one? Is there no plan that insurance industries can put out that serves our republic? Something that would attract insurance companies over Obamacare? They may make money in the short term, but I doubt if they really want the govt. in their nickers continually.

Come 2018 we will have a majority, it really is that simple and the entire issue will be dead because we'll control the purse.

Quote from: Solar on August 14, 2017, 07:27:08 PM
Herein lies the issue, you keep alluding to working out some sort of deal, that would mean capitulation to the leftists in the party, playing right into their hands.
If the camel sticks it nose under the tent, I assure you, it will come all the way in for single payer.
Come 2018 we will have a majority, it really is that simple and the entire issue will be dead because we'll control the purse.

THAT young man is what the GOP's are afraid.  They will not control the party. 

Quote from: topside on August 14, 2017, 05:27:13 PM
Solar! Read these two lines again:

See ... there is no govt. involvement in the objective. The goal is full repeal. But we need to work with reality to get to the full repeal. How do we get there. Oh - wait until Conservatives control the House, Senate, and Presidency? I think we need ideas that try and move the group we have now toward full repeal no matter how difficult it may seem.

How do we get the five votes more that we need to get it to happen? I'm looking to foster some brainstorming on it. The objective of the approaches I'm vetting is to get the five votes we need for full repeal. Nothing else will do!

Let's come up with something that can move the bar. Ms. Indy contributed some experience - that the industry will insure anything to make a buck. So who can influence that industry to stand for Conservative values instead of crony capitalism in the name of serving our country? Is there no one? Is there no plan that insurance industries can put out that serves our republic? Something that would attract insurance companies over Obamacare? They may make money in the short term, but I doubt if they really want the govt. in their nickers continually.

If companies are given the freedom to develop their own plans they will. They just cannot be shackled with burdens and mandates such as "pre existing conditions".

Quote from: supsalemgr on August 15, 2017, 04:10:50 AM
If companies are given the freedom to develop their own plans they will. They just cannot be shackled with burdens and mandates such as "pre existing conditions".

Yes. Agreed. So the question is how you convince the voting body that affordable health care means that you can only cover so many maladies. Certainly not every pre-existing condition.

The pre-existing condition coverage that has been sold is a primary component driving the costs up. But it's become an entitlement and it seems that some in the house and senate can't see that it's unsustainable. That is just one of the symptoms of why HC should not be under govt. control.

Quote from: Solar on August 14, 2017, 07:27:08 PM
Herein lies the issue, you keep alluding to working out some sort of deal, that would mean capitulation to the leftists in the party, playing right into their hands. If the camel sticks it nose under the tent, I assure you, it will come all the way in for single payer.

Agree - we need to shoot the camel; not looking for some sort of deal. Looking for a real plan that thinking people could point to and say that this is the value the free market adds and is a  much better alternative  ... without all the administrative and regulatory costs that the govt. implies. The goal is to show how a free market plan brings truly affordable HC so the votes swing and the repeal happens.

QuoteCome 2018 we will have a majority, it really is that simple and the entire issue will be dead because we'll control the purse.

Yes - that's our hope. But we need Plans A, B, C, D, ... We should be coming up with ideas that can improve the situation under the current governance. These plans could succeed ... or not. There is a much better conservative position now than there was a year ago and we should try to coerce it to conservative values and results.

So much can go wrong and turn the tides against 2018. What if wars break out and the economy craters? Then the Dims get control back? I'm not so confident that 2018 belongs to the conservatives. I even believe it's in our favor for now but so much can change.

But - have it your way Solar. Let's just grouse about the Marxist Dims. Let's blame the RINOs (rightfully) for killing the full repeal. Let's be embarrassed that the Pubs had no real plan to get HC repeal done. Let's just stand by and do nothing now - and hope something changes in 2018. And if it doesn't go our way, we can blame the Dims and RINO's again while the constitution continues to burn. 

Sup ... yes, the GOP is afraid they will lose control. If things go well in this administration, they may NOT lose control and we end up with more years of RINOs. We need more than one strategy on any given issue, including HC. It's not easy - it never is easy to do the right thing because there are always those who want to take the easy way and hope someone else will figure it out for them.

The thing to do is to pick the best model and work with it. But also choose several alternate conditions and try and optimize under those assumptions too. My best prediction (model) is the Status Quo model - that at this point is that Trump will continue to build business in the economy. The left will continue to attack at every opportunity. Wars will continue, the economy will hold up and the voters will put similar RINOs back in at the 2018 election. So that's the model I believe we need to face.

Meanwhile, I'll be praying that conservatives gain strength and be the most elated if my status-quo model is wrong. I still believe God intervened to put HiLIARy out and he might choose to do it again if the faithful come to him in humility and ask him to rescue us. But dealing with the alternative isn't a lack of faith. It's understanding the hearts that have shown in our nation to worship themselves; a heart that needs to be turned toward the creator.

Quote from: topside on August 15, 2017, 04:41:41 AM
Yes. Agreed. So the question is how you convince the voting body that affordable health care means that you can only cover so many maladies. Certainly not every pre-existing condition.

The pre-existing condition coverage that has been sold is a primary component driving the costs up. But it's become an entitlement and it seems that some in the house and senate can't see that it's unsustainable. That is just one of the symptoms of why HC should not be under govt. control.

The toothpaste is out of the tube and cannot be put back. Politicians told the folks pre existing conditions should be covered, even conservatives. This cannot be done for a reasonable expense. Hence the need for subsidies.

Quote from: topside on August 15, 2017, 05:12:47 AM
Yes. Agreed. So the question is how you convince the voting body that affordable health care means that you can only cover so many maladies. Certainly not every pre-existing condition.
Yes - that's our hope. But we need Plans A, B, C, D, ... We should be coming up with ideas that can improve the situation under the current governance. These plans could succeed ... or not. There is a much better conservative position now than there was a year ago and we should try to coerce it to conservative values and results.

Allow insurance to offer the most basic of coverage, it really is that simple, assuming there is no govt interference, I would be allowed to purchace anything my imagination could create, even covering one office doctor visit a year and all labs.

QuoteSo much can go wrong and turn the tides against 2018. What if wars break out and the economy craters? Then the Dims get control back? I'm not so confident that 2018 belongs to the conservatives. I even believe it's in our favor for now but so much can change.

Because nothing is going to change the ire of the nation.

QuoteBut - have it your way Solar. Let's just grouse about the Marxist Dims. Let's blame the RINOs (rightfully) for killing the full repeal. Let's be embarrassed that the Pubs had no real plan to get HC repeal done. Let's just stand by and do nothing now - and hope something changes in 2018. And if it doesn't go our way, we can blame the Dims and RINO's again while the constitution continues to burn. 

Lets say I don't want to buy HC for the next 40 years, does the country need a Bill stating so?
Does the country need a Bill telling us what cars we should be allowed to buy?
No, and I don't want the govt dictating in any matter. Point is, you are still under the illusion that a Bill of any kind is necessary, but when you stop and think about it, regardless of what the Bill is attempting to protect, it's shackling someone else at the expense of another.

QuoteSup ... yes, the GOP is afraid they will lose control. If things go well in this administration, they may NOT lose control and we end up with more years of RINOs. We need more than one strategy on any given issue, including HC. It's not easy - it never is easy to do the right thing because there are always those who want to take the easy way and hope someone else will figure it out for them.

I don't think you have yet to explain this so called strategy beyond standing our ground and holdiniug these Marxists accountavble.

QuoteThe thing to do is to pick the best model and work with it. But also choose several alternate conditions and try and optimize under those assumptions too. My best prediction (model) is the Status Quo model - that at this point is that Trump will continue to build business in the economy. The left will continue to attack at every opportunity. Wars will continue, the economy will hold up and the voters will put similar RINOs back in at the 2018 election. So that's the model I believe we need to face.

See, there you go again, asking Conservatives to compromise their principles out of fear.

QuoteMeanwhile, I'll be praying that conservatives gain strength and be the most elated if my status-quo model is wrong. I still believe God intervened to put HiLIARy out and he might choose to do it again if the faithful come to him in humility and ask him to rescue us. But dealing with the alternative isn't a lack of faith. It's understanding the hearts that have shown in our nation to worship themselves; a heart that needs to be turned toward the creator.

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Ben Franklin.

In other words, you rely on govt to do the right thing while usurping your Freedom to choose and willingly give up Liberty to an oppressor.
Stop empowering govt! The Bill of Rights was written quite clearly, that the Fed has zero say in a set of Ten Enumerated Rights, yet what did these Bozos do the moment govt attempted to usurp said Rights?
They empowered the very entity barred from  interference of said Rights to decide what their Rights were and allowed it to set parameters, which is why we have so many issues surround the 2nd.

So I'll ask again, why do you want the very entity that's trying to control what you purchase on the open market, the power to dictate what's good for you?

Let me be as clear as possible. We Don't need govt permission to purtchase anything, or when and what we buy, that is the Conservative message of this forum!

Quote from: Solar on August 15, 2017, 08:36:02 AM
Allow insurance to offer the most basic of coverage, it really is that simple, assuming there is no govt interference, I would be allowed to purchace anything my imagination could create, even covering one office doctor visit a year and all labs.
Because nothing is going to change the ire of the nation.

The problem is people don't want basic coverage anymore. They want their pre existing conditions covered, they want their kids covered till they're 26 ( why should insurance deal with someone else's kids is beyond me), they want the free birth control ,Viagra, the whole deal! It's this culture of dependency that needs to be combative otherwise nothing long lasting can ever get done.

Quote from: Gunbunny42 on August 15, 2017, 09:08:41 PM
The problem is people don't want basic coverage anymore. They want their pre existing conditions covered, they want their kids covered till they're 26 ( why should insurance deal with someone else's kids is beyond me), they want the free birth control ,Viagra, the whole deal! It's this culture of dependency that needs to be combative otherwise nothing long lasting can ever get done.

By repealing obamacare and letting the free market work, none of what "the people" want is eliminated. You just have to buy it now. Want your kids covered from cradle to grave, you got it, just pay for it. Toenails need clipping and you want it covered, great, just pay for it. Want a policy that will cover and protect your family without breaking the bank, you would be able to work out a policy that will fit those needs too. In fact, this would be the way the vast majority would go, people tend to be a little more conservative with their own $.