Debating liberals

Started by taxed, June 11, 2019, 08:10:29 PM

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alienhand

Quote from: taxed on June 17, 2019, 04:05:43 AM
Then ask again.
I honestly have no idea what you're saying.  The Second Amendment is as simple as "See spot run".

I'll ask again.

And, it's fine you don't understand what I'm saying.  Let's just say I'm coming to a conclusion and coming up with a concept and I'm just mulling about it in my mind.   

taxed

Quote from: alienhand on June 17, 2019, 04:13:37 AM
I'll ask again.

And, it's fine you don't understand what I'm saying.  Let's just say I'm coming to a conclusion and coming up with a concept and I'm just mulling about it in my mind.

Ask what?
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alienhand


taxed

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alienhand


taxed

Quote from: alienhand on June 17, 2019, 04:43:46 AM
???

Let me ask, why don't you learn to code and just take people out of the equation all together?  Seriously, it would give your brain something to crunch on while being productive.
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alienhand

Quote from: taxed on June 17, 2019, 04:44:39 AM
Let me ask, why don't you learn to code and just take people out of the equation all together?  Seriously, it would give your brain something to crunch on while being productive.

I do know how to code.

taxed

Quote from: alienhand on June 17, 2019, 04:48:56 AM
I do know how to code.

Then you can help us with some stuff on Hardliner.  What's your Github?
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Solar

Quote from: alienhand on June 17, 2019, 03:43:26 AM
Taxed, you provided me with some helpful information.  If I'm understanding you correctly certain meanings, definitions and contexts is simply just accepted.  And, concerning the 2nd amendment Solar, you and others have read these things like the federalist papers and are simply that the founding fathers had that is inferred from their writings.  Is that correct?  And, what Solar is telling me is read through these things myself and try to derive these meanings on my own from these things, is this correct?

Nothing!  Nevermind on this one!
Yes, it's in the Federalist papers. The very reason they were released to the public, so the people could all be on the same page in knowing what kind of govt they were about to agree upon.

But better yet are some of the quotes from our Founders and why it is so Damned important that the Constitution and Bill of Rights be pounded into the heads of our children.
Here's why I know what the Second means, I've read all there is on the subject.
Here's a collection of quotes explaining their mentality, they couldn't be any clearer. Note the dates, they were still clarifying nearly a decade later.
For this very reason, we can never define the 2nd further, it speaks for itself.

"A free people ought not only to be armed, but disciplined..." – George Washington, First Annual Address, to both House of Congress, January 8, 1790

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." – Thomas Jefferson, Virginia Constitution, Draft 1, 1776

"I prefer dangerous freedom over peaceful slavery." – Thomas Jefferson, letter to James Madison, January 30, 1787

"What country can preserve its liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance. Let them take arms." – Thomas Jefferson, letter to James Madison, December 20, 1787

"The laws that forbid the carrying of arms are laws of such a nature. They disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes.... Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man." – Thomas Jefferson, Commonplace Book (quoting 18th century criminologist Cesare Beccaria), 1774-1776

"A strong body makes the mind strong. As to the species of exercises, I advise the gun. While this gives moderate exercise to the body, it gives boldness, enterprise and independence to the mind. Games played with the ball, and others of that nature, are too violent for the body and stamp no character on the mind. Let your gun therefore be your constant companion of your walks." – Thomas Jefferson, letter to Peter Carr, August 19, 1785

"The Constitution of most of our states (and of the United States) assert that all power is inherent in the people; that they may exercise it by themselves; that it is their right and duty to be at all times armed." – Thomas Jefferson, letter to John Cartwright, 5 June 1824

"On every occasion [of Constitutional interpretation] let us carry ourselves back to the time when the Constitution was adopted, recollect the spirit manifested in the debates, and instead of trying [to force] what meaning may be squeezed out of the text, or invented against it, [instead let us] conform to the probable one in which it was passed." – Thomas Jefferson, letter to William Johnson, 12 June 1823

"I enclose you a list of the killed, wounded, and captives of the enemy from the commencement of hostilities at Lexington in April, 1775, until November, 1777, since which there has been no event of any consequence ... I think that upon the whole it has been about one half the number lost by them, in some instances more, but in others less. This difference is ascribed to our superiority in taking aim when we fire; every soldier in our army having been intimate with his gun from his infancy." – Thomas Jefferson, letter to Giovanni Fabbroni, June 8, 1778

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." – Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania, 1759

"To disarm the people...s the most effectual way to enslave them." – George Mason, referencing advice given to the British Parliament by Pennsylvania governor Sir William Keith, The Debates in the Several State Conventions on the Adooption of the Federal Constitution, June 14, 1788

"I ask who are the militia? They consist now of the whole people, except a few public officers." – George Mason, Address to the Virginia Ratifying Convention, June 4, 1788

"Before a standing army can rule, the people must be disarmed, as they are in almost every country in Europe. The supreme power in America cannot enforce unjust laws by the sword; because the whole body of the people are armed, and constitute a force superior to any band of regular troops." – Noah Webster, An Examination of the Leading Principles of the Federal Constitution, October 10, 1787

"Besides the advantage of being armed, which the Americans possess over the people of almost every other nation, the existence of subordinate governments, to which the people are attached, and by which the militia officers are appointed, forms a barrier against the enterprises of ambition, more insurmountable than any which a simple government of any form can admit of." – James Madison, Federalist No. 46, January 29, 1788

"The right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed. A well regulated militia, composed of the body of the people, trained to arms, is the best and most natural defense of a free country." – James Madison, I Annals of Congress 434, June 8, 1789

"...the ultimate authority, wherever the derivative may be found, resides in the people alone..." – James Madison, Federalist No. 46, January 29, 1788

"Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." – William Pitt (the Younger), Speech in the House of Commons, November 18, 1783

"A militia when properly formed are in fact the people themselves...and include, according to the past and general usuage of the states, all men capable of bearing arms...  "To preserve liberty, it is essential that the whole body of the people always possess arms, and be taught alike, especially when young, how to use them." – Richard Henry Lee, Federal Farmer No. 18, January 25, 1788

"Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect everyone who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are ruined.... The great object is that every man be armed. Everyone who is able might have a gun." – Patrick Henry, Speech to the Virginia Ratifying Convention, June 5, 1778

"This may be considered as the true palladium of liberty.... The right of self defense is the first law of nature: in most governments it has been the study of rulers to confine this right within the narrowest limits possible. Wherever standing armies are kept up, and the right of the people to keep and bear arms is, under any color or pretext whatsoever, prohibited, liberty, if not already annihilated, is on the brink of destruction." – St. George Tucker, Blackstone's Commentaries on the Laws of England, 1803

"The supposed quietude of a good man allures the ruffian; while on the other hand, arms, like law, discourage and keep the invader and the plunderer in awe, and preserve order in the world as well as property. The balance of power is the scale of peace. The same balance would be preserved were all the world destitute of arms, for all would be alike; but since some will not, others dare not lay them aside. And while a single nation refuses to lay them down, it is proper that all should keep them up. Horrid mischief would ensue were one-half the world deprived of the use of them; for while avarice and ambition have a place in the heart of man, the weak will become a prey to the strong. The history of every age and nation establishes these truths, and facts need but little arguments when they prove themselves." – Thomas Paine, "Thoughts on Defensive War" in Pennsylvania Magazine, July 1775

"The Constitution shall never be construed to prevent the people of the United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms." – Samuel Adams, Massachusetts Ratifying Convention, 1788

"The right of the citizens to keep and bear arms has justly been considered, as the palladium of the liberties of a republic; since it offers a strong moral check against the usurpation and arbitrary power of rulers; and will generally, even if these are successful in the first instance, enable the people to resist and triumph over them." – Joseph Story, Commentaries on the Constitution of the United States, 1833

"What, Sir, is the use of a militia? It is to prevent the establishment of a standing army, the bane of liberty .... Whenever Governments mean to invade the rights and liberties of the people, they always attempt to destroy the militia, in order to raise an army upon their ruins." – Rep. Elbridge Gerry of Massachusetts, I Annals of Congress 750, August 17, 1789

"For it is a truth, which the experience of ages has attested, that the people are always most in danger when the means of injuring their rights are in the possession of those of whom they entertain the least suspicion." – Alexander Hamilton, Federalist No. 25, December 21, 1787

"If the representatives of the people betray their constituents, there is then no resource left but in the exertion of that original right of self-defense which is paramount to all positive forms of government, and which against the usurpations of the national rulers, may be exerted with infinitely better prospect of success than against those of the rulers of an individual state. In a single state, if the persons intrusted with supreme power become usurpers, the different parcels, subdivisions, or districts of which it consists, having no distinct government in each, can take no regular measures for defense. The citizens must rush tumultuously to arms, without concert, without system, without resource; except in their courage and despair." – Alexander Hamilton, Federalist No. 28

"f circumstances should at any time oblige the government to form an army of any magnitude that army can never be formidable to the liberties of the people while there is a large body of citizens, little, if at all, inferior to them in discipline and the use of arms, who stand ready to defend their own rights and those of their fellow-citizens. This appears to me the only substitute that can be devised for a standing army, and the best possible security against it, if it should exist." – Alexander Hamilton, Federalist No. 28, January 10, 1788

"As civil rulers, not having their duty to the people before them, may attempt to tyrannize, and as the military forces which must be occasionally raised to defend our country, might pervert their power to the injury of their fellow citizens, the people are confirmed by the article in their right to keep and bear their private arms." – Tench Coxe, Philadelphia Federal Gazette, June 18, 1789
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Solar

Quote from: alienhand on June 17, 2019, 03:59:45 AM
If I ask the question and others won't give the answer saying things along the lines that it is common sense then what?

Honestly, you really can't not in a direct sense.  And, that's b/c sometimes the question is to simply to really give an answer.   Example:   Could you explain to someone how to breath or take in a breath and exhale?   Certain things are so automatic and instinctual that one may do or know things at an unconscious level.  Am I making sense?  Even the founding fathers said that certain things were self-evident.  Maybe to them certain things were so plain and obvious that they couldn't explain it but in the most simple terms. 

Some things are simply to simple to explain.  If you get what I'm saying. 

My dead grandmother had a saying.  "You're so smart, you dope."  Trust me, my grandmother was blunt on things.
There's a reason you are missing a ton of information and why you are unable to come to any conclusion. You are completely ignorant of our history.
Most of your questions are basic commonsense, assuming you had an understanding of our history, but you do not, so to you these are complex in nature because it forces us to give you basic knowledge and background.
Something you should have learned in school, but the left wants you ignorant for a reason, so they didn't teach you, and here you are now, doubting the language of our Constitution, so they succeeded.
So do yourself a favor, read the Federalist Papers, they really aren't that long or hard to understand.

http://www.foundingfathers.info/federalistpapers/fedi.htm
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alienhand

Solar, you're not upset with me nor did I offend you or anyone on here?  Sometimes I can come off as an ass sometimes.  I don't mean to be. 

I've read your quotes from the founding fathers and going to read the federalist papers.  I've read part of the first one so far.  One of the things established is that we must have a gov't.  So, obviously they didn't believe in anarcho-capitalism.

Solar

Quote from: alienhand on June 17, 2019, 11:29:12 AM
Solar, you're not upset with me nor did I offend you or anyone on here?  Sometimes I can come off as an ass sometimes.  I don't mean to be. 

I've read your quotes from the founding fathers and going to read the federalist papers.  I've read part of the first one so far.  One of the things established is that we must have a gov't.  So, obviously they didn't believe in anarcho-capitalism.
Nope. I may come off as an ass as well, but that's just because I tend to be blunt and concise.
Just keep reading, you have much to learn. The Founders believed in free mkt, period.
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Billy's bayonet

Quote from: alienhand on June 16, 2019, 09:23:40 PM
Regulated = disciplined and well equipped.   They keep their guns, ammo, etc well maintained and secured when not using them.   They're disciplined with their emotions and they don't get cocky. Some gun owners I see on youtube videos are not regulated at all.  So, should every ordinary citizen have a gun?  Should a person who is having a full blown schizophrenic episode have a gun.  Are they well regulated?  I don't think so.


How do you derive that the word "Arms" means gun only and not weapon?

1. Weapons of offense, or armor for defense and protection of the body.

Going by his dictionary of what arms means it doesn't limit the weapons at all.
How do you derive arms to meaning guns only?  Can you explain this, show this and prove this to be the case?

no every citizen should not be required to have firearms, but a citizen is entitled to have a firearm....Society can take away your rights....they do it everytime you get convicted of a offense and get set to jail/prison, you have few rights in prison, therfore you should not have the "right" to own a firearm when there is proof  you may likely use it to commit/continue committing crimes.

'Arms' are taken in the context of our constitution to mean "FIREARMS"  firearms trump all  other weapons like swords spears, pikes axes and knives or bows/arrows. 

REsearch the evolution of Japan from a fuedal society where only certain people were allowed to be ARMED (with swords)  See what happened whe peasants ad peasant armies got their hands on guns supplied by Dutch, English ad America traders, firearms defeated the finest swordsmen known to history.

One last thought for you to ponder, the RIGHT to bear arms  implies you have the right of self defense
against whomever, a home invasion gang a maurding raider, a hostile foreign power or a tyranical Govt.  The courts have up held the RIGHT OF SELF DEFENSE may times in many cases where a homeower shot a intruder/assailant.
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alienhand

#88
Implied is the operative word.  When I read these things I need to look for what is being implied.  Sort of like what's the fine print? Most ppl, even the founding fathers, don't think and write in a literal way like I do.   

Solar

Quote from: alienhand on June 17, 2019, 08:58:15 PM
Implied is the operative word.  When I read these things I need to look for what is being implied.  Sort of like what's the fine print? Most ppl, even the founding fathers, don't think and write in a literal way like I do.
The Founding Documents were concise, there was no mistaking their intent, they were written so even an idiot could grasp their meaning.
The Founders intent was a super lean and small unintrusive govt. That's why the Bill of Rights was created, assuring the govt was hamstrung and kept away from God Given Rights.
That's the approach you need to take when reading the Federalist Papers. Our Founders despised govt, and saw it as a necessary evil.
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