snip~
With President Trump placing his faith in China's ability to keep its neighbor under control - through threats, promises, or oil embargoes - it appears, according to unconfirmed rumors spreading widely on Chinese social media Tuesday, that North Korea just got its final warning.
snip~
The rumor cited the May issue of Hong Kong monthly news outlet Dong Xiang.
QuoteIt said a Chinese Ministry of Foreign Affairs junior minister invited Park Myung-ho, an official of North Korea, for a meeting. China's Foreign Minister Wang Yi attended the meeting and asked his junior to read aloud the warning to the North over the nuclear test.
The memorandum mentioned that China will condemn strongly, pull back on all economic cooperation and even blockade North Korea if it conducted the test.
more @
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-05-03/china-reportedly-issues-final-warning-north-korea
It's scarcely the true final warning, which is delivered by missile, doesn't matter whose. Crazy Fat Kid will probably flaunt it, for the same reason he ignores everyone else...to show he's in charge and invulnerable. The true test comes when he has to short the same military he's been pampering just to stay in power.
Pray for our service people on duty there. May they get home and not glow in the dark.
My worry ... this guy is just crazy enough to try and start WW3, if he thinks someone is trying to take him out.
Quote from: Hoofer on May 03, 2017, 01:48:45 PM
My worry ... this guy is just crazy enough to try and start WW3, if he thinks someone is trying to take him out.
Then it's our task to convince him an internal coup is inevitable and his life depends on abdication. Their military would have a much more clear idea of what China can really do to them (even if Kim believes differently).
Offer him a nice apartment in suburban Paris like he actually matters, and let the Muslim yoots deal with him, and they would. (Take your regime and baguette.)
Quote from: Hoofer on May 03, 2017, 01:48:45 PM
My worry ... this guy is just crazy enough to try and start WW3, if he thinks someone is trying to take him out.
Agreed; he's been taunting the U.S. for quite sometime, but the worry is always one day one of his missiles that he tests will make it here.
Quote from: Ms.Independence on May 03, 2017, 02:59:53 PM
Agreed; he's been taunting the U.S. for quite sometime, but the worry is always one day one of his missiles that he tests will make it here.
Do you know how far Korea is from the US mainland?
It'll never happen.
Quote from: Solar on May 03, 2017, 03:17:04 PM
Do you know how far Korea is from the US mainland?
It'll never happen.
Never ?
Hillary Clinton would send advisors to North Korea to make certain they could reach us.
After a suitable donation to the Clinton Foundation.
Quote from: Solar on May 03, 2017, 03:17:04 PM
Do you know how far Korea is from the US mainland?
It'll never happen.
No, honestly, I've never researched that information....so I looked it up - 6,423 miles. Headlines and reports are indicating that N. Korea is close and I am curious as to why you to believe that it will never happen? We currently have missiles in place to take out their missiles correct?
The headlines are reading that Hawaii is preparing.
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2017/05/02/hawaii-preparation-for-north-korea-nuke-attack-far-from-complete.html
Information seems to indicate that it's just a matter of time; This from Popular Mechanics ...
...North Korea has been busy testing all kinds of missiles. Pyongyang's Musudan missile will eventually be able to reach Guam with a nuclear warhead. Experts think the KN-08 mobile missile may be able to place a small nuclear warhead on the West Coast of the U.S. by 2020....
http://www.popularmechanics.com/military/weapons/advice/a22948/north-korea-icbm-range-united-states/
Quote from: Ms.Independence on May 03, 2017, 03:36:30 PM
No, honestly, I've never researched that information....so I looked it up - 6,423 miles. Headlines and reports are indicating that N. Korea is close and I am curious as to why you to believe that it will never happen? We currently have missiles in place to take out their missiles correct?
The headlines are reading that Hawaii is preparing.
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2017/05/02/hawaii-preparation-for-north-korea-nuke-attack-far-from-complete.html
Information seems to indicate that it's just a matter of time; This from Popular Mechanics ...
...North Korea has been busy testing all kinds of missiles. Pyongyang's Musudan missile will eventually be able to reach Guam with a nuclear warhead. Experts think the KN-08 mobile missile may be able to place a small nuclear warhead on the West Coast of the U.S. by 2020....
http://www.popularmechanics.com/military/weapons/advice/a22948/north-korea-icbm-range-united-states/
If you want to believe the hype, go right ahead, nothing I say will change that, but there's a reason no one has ever launched a missile at the US, and no country ever will if they want to exist beyond the next day, aside the fact we can take out anything he throws our way, which is why distance matters.
There is a little thing known as lift, and for a missile to travel that distance, it has to enter the outer atmosphere, then reenter, all of which takes time and gives us an advantage of tracking and locking on a target with multiple options.
One being, take off involving several stages, unlike ground to air rockets which are much faster and harder to hit, but multistage rockets are slow, have a set trajectory which makes them extremely predictable and easy to target, several times over.
Anyway, the crap NK has is extremely old technology.
This doesn't mean he can't try, but he's been warned.
So, China drew a red line?
I think Kim jr. will be knocked off and it won't be by us.
Quote from: Solar on May 03, 2017, 05:14:16 PM
If you want to believe the hype, go right ahead, nothing I say will change that, but there's a reason no one has ever launched a missile at the US, and no country ever will if they want to exist beyond the next day, aside the fact we can take out anything he throws our way, which is why distance matters.
There is a little thing known as lift, and for a missile to travel that distance, it has to enter the outer atmosphere, then reenter, all of which takes time and gives us an advantage of tracking and locking on a target with multiple options.
One being, take off involving several stages, unlike ground to air rockets which are much faster and harder to hit, but multistage rockets are slow, have a set trajectory which makes them extremely predictable and easy to target, several times over.
Anyway, the crap NK has is extremely old technology.
This doesn't mean he can't try, but he's been warned.
As I remember right with NC Trump does not have to ask congress if he can retaliate.
Quote from: Solar on May 03, 2017, 05:14:16 PM
If you want to believe the hype, go right ahead, nothing I say will change that, but there's a reason no one has ever launched a missile at the US, and no country ever will if they want to exist beyond the next day, aside the fact we can take out anything he throws our way, which is why distance matters.
There is a little thing known as lift, and for a missile to travel that distance, it has to enter the outer atmosphere, then reenter, all of which takes time and gives us an advantage of tracking and locking on a target with multiple options.
One being, take off involving several stages, unlike ground to air rockets which are much faster and harder to hit, but multistage rockets are slow, have a set trajectory which makes them extremely predictable and easy to target, several times over.
Anyway, the crap NK has is extremely old technology.
This doesn't mean he can't try, but he's been warned.
Right. There is a huge difference between an ICBM and a traditional missile. Much more has to go right with an ICBM. If NK launches, it will likely be against SK. And if NK detonates a nuke of any size, NKwill at least get a leadership change and probably more ... if not sooner. A nuke strike in the US by NK in this decade is highly unlikely - far fetched based on their lack of tech alone.
Quote from: Solar on May 03, 2017, 03:17:04 PM
Do you know how far Korea is from the US mainland?
It'll never happen.
So it's OK that we lose Hawaii? Guam?
Quote from: Ms.Independence on May 03, 2017, 02:59:53 PM
Agreed; he's been taunting the U.S. for quite sometime, but the worry is always one day one of his missiles that he tests will make it here.
Once they get one off the launch pad I'll think about starting to think about worrying...
Quote from: quiller on May 03, 2017, 08:10:49 PM
So it's OK that we lose Hawaii? Guam?
Half the time they can't even reach the ocean, and you think they can target a tiny chain of islands?
Besides, according to Dims, we can just move Guam. :biggrin:
Quote from: Solar on May 04, 2017, 05:08:27 AM
Half the time they can't even reach the ocean, and you think they can target a tiny chain of islands?
Besides, according to Dims, we can just move Guam. :biggrin:
Why, oh why do people think the NorKs cannot improve their admittedly shaky missile program? Although the Chinese have probably given them a majority of their equipment, there are other suppliers who will doubtlessly come forward at one of the various European arms bazaars. Here---have a bunch of stuff not infected by Stuxnet.
Let's say that the NorKs don't target say Honolulu (read, Pearl Harbor) and instead go for the gold and TRY TO take out San Diego and much of the U.S. Navy systems there. The attack would fail. The missile defense crews would have enough time to blow those things out of the sky.
But a shorter-range target, delivered from a North Korea submarine? Never underestimate an enemy too crazy to know when to stop.
Quote from: quiller on May 03, 2017, 08:10:49 PM
So it's OK that we lose Hawaii? Guam?
As you indicate, any hostile nuke detonation is not OK. The point is that a NK launch against the US mainland is highly unlikely. The US is reluctant to go in due to the specter of a China conflict. I believe that the US is taking a chance to see if China will act - if China doesn't take part in supporting stability in their region now, they never will.
China is quiet and powerful ... they are the ones that concern me more. Anyone remember the movie Cujo? Well, Kim Jong-un reminds me of Cujo but a chihuahua rather than a St. Bernard. He's the yipping little rotund KuJo that needs to cut back on his dog food. We need a good artist on this site ... photoshop his head on a chihuahua, army in the background with toy guns, missiles falling over - titled KuJo. Have our spy planes drop them over NK. The NK people could probably use a good laugh - even if Cujo won't be released there for a few more years.
There is little doubt that NK has nukes. But it is another matter whether their nuke can lift on their missiles. For that matter, whether they can achieve a good launch. http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-pacific-11813699 (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-pacific-11813699) You've got to believe that KuJo is pressing his developers to produce under duress and that they are reporting more success to him than they actually attain just to keep their lives and the lives of their families.
He seems to be a very limited version of Hitler - just as crazy, less issues with health (from what I've seen), controlling the military power of NK. But much more boisterous. He doesn't seem to recognize the NK population as superior as Hitler did the "Aryan nation" but does seem to have this notion of exterminating other nations. Hitler came from humble beginnings but was driven by some insane hatred of certain groups - especially the Jews. Hitler's power over the military was his enabler and his illnesses seemed to produce mental instability and increase his resolve to make all others miserable who didn't align with him. I have no idea what drives the crazy KuJo? He's had a pampered life and inherited his position that he could kick back and enjoy if he just shut up. All I can guess is that he think's he's god-like and wants to show it against those who don't bow to him?
Regardless, I think most are waiting for China. I'm very surprised that they haven't taken action yet. I doubt that anyone would challenge their actions if China simply went in and shut KuJo down. It appears they are willing to take the patient route for now - cut off NK's trade. But that will also cost China ... but KuJo still won't miss a meal so I doubt an embargo or similar will be effective.
Fact: North Korea has a missile submarine fleet.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_active_North_Korean_ships#Submarine
Quote from: quiller on May 04, 2017, 05:26:51 AM
Why, oh why do people think the NorKs cannot improve their admittedly shaky missile program? Although the Chinese have probably given them a majority of their equipment, there are other suppliers who will doubtlessly come forward at one of the various European arms bazaars. Here---have a bunch of stuff not infected by Stuxnet.
Let's say that the NorKs don't target say Honolulu (read, Pearl Harbor) and instead go for the gold and TRY TO take out San Diego and much of the U.S. Navy systems there. The attack would fail. The missile defense crews would have enough time to blow those things out of the sky.
But a shorter-range target, delivered from a North Korea submarine? Never underestimate an enemy too crazy to know when to stop.
Just because they can launch a missile is no reason to overreact. Anything they launch, and I mean anything, can be taken out, which is why we stationed THAAD on the DMZ.
When I was there, our biggest concern was a strike across the border because we were told we'd have 3 minutes to react.
To this day I still cringe when I hear a civil defence siren monthly test.
But fast forward nearly 50 years and we have all kinds of deterrents as well as defensive capabilities, including the Patriot batteries up and down the Z.
http://thediplomat.com/2017/03/us-starts-deploying-thaad-anti-missile-defense-system-in-south-korea/
(https://www.stripes.com/polopoly_fs/1.456150.1488187251!/image/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/landscape_900/image.jpg)
By the way, China hates THAAD, which is one more reason to deploy it, it puts even more pressure on the commie Chinks.
I didn't say those submarines would be aiming missiles at the DMZ, but rather San Diego or other U.S. targets. You might cast doubt on their IMMEDIATE capabilities (which I say are better than advertised from such an ultra-secretive society!) but existence of a NorK sub capable of firing a missile --- say for an EMP blast --- says they don't even need to hit a physical target. Just aim up and the entire electrical grid goes down.
Quote from: quiller on May 04, 2017, 06:40:16 AM
I didn't say those submarines would be aiming missiles at the DMZ, but rather San Diego or other U.S. targets. You might cast doubt on their IMMEDIATE capabilities (which I say are better than advertised from such an ultra-secretive society!) but existence of a NorK sub capable of firing a missile --- say for an EMP blast --- says they don't even need to hit a physical target. Just aim up and the entire electrical grid goes down.
You mean the Romeo class diesel? :biggrin:
http://www.militaryfactory.com/ships/detail.asp?ship_id=romeo-class-diesel-electric-attack-submarine-soviet-union
Quote from: Solar on May 04, 2017, 06:56:55 AM
You mean the Romeo class diesel? :biggrin:
http://www.militaryfactory.com/ships/detail.asp?ship_id=romeo-class-diesel-electric-attack-submarine-soviet-union
I suspect you have again obsessed on nukes and assorted major sub-delivered missiles. Can the Romeo class, fire a missile in an upward trajectory, high enough to activate an EMP effect---or can it not?
(*pause for evil chuckle*)
Let's face it. If that little fat corksocker thinks that China has truly abandoned him, then he'd use a damned SLINGSHOT to get such an EMP device aloft. Doesn't have to have Iranian plutonium or Russian servomechanical whatchacallits.
On the upside, until Tubby's boffins up their game and extend their range, any damage will be our West Coast. They can do without electricity and the Internet for a while. Particularly the Bay area. :biggrin:
About that THAAD defense....
QuoteNorth Korea has tailored its spate of ballistic missile tests to defeat the U.S.-stationed defense systems ready to protect the South and Japan from descending warheads, a report to Congress says.
The bellicose North regularly flight-tests a panoply of ballistic missiles that could, in war, be capped with miniaturized nuclear warheads and strike its two democratic neighbors and U.S. allies.
The U.S. military has matched this threat by first stationing Patriot anti-missile batteries and then announcing that the wider-range, mobile THAAD system is now in place to shoot down incoming warheads.
Pyongyang, the North's capital, has been watching.
The Congressional Research Service reported that the regime launched test missiles last year in flights precisely designed to avoid interception by rocketing them into much higher altitudes. The result: The re-entry warhead will descend at a steeper angle and faster speed, "making it potentially more difficult to intercept with a missile defense system," the CRS said.
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2017/may/3/north-korea-missiles-can-defeat-us-defense-systems/
Quote from: quiller on May 04, 2017, 10:23:21 AM
I suspect you have again obsessed on nukes and assorted major sub-delivered missiles. Can the Romeo class, fire a missile in an upward trajectory, high enough to activate an EMP effect---or can it not?
(*pause for evil chuckle*)
Let's face it. If that little fat corksocker thinks that China has truly abandoned him, then he'd use a damned SLINGSHOT to get such an EMP device aloft. Doesn't have to have Iranian plutonium or Russian servomechanical whatchacallits.
On the upside, until Tubby's boffins up their game and extend their range, any damage will be our West Coast. They can do without electricity and the Internet for a while. Particularly the Bay area. :biggrin:
Nah, it's an old attack class sub with no missile capability.
Its range could get it to the west coast, but without the ability for resupply, it would be a one way trip, and if they venture into our waters, will become target practice.
They aren't a quiet running ship either and batteries/electricity only last a short time and need to surface.
Bottom line? These are toys compared to anything we have, and easy to detect, slower than a whale.
Think seal with a mariachi band and disco ball in full light, and that's in stealth mode. :lol:
Kim Jong-Un Mans A Soviet Submarine That's Been Obsolete Since 1961(https://conservativepoliticalforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fstatic2.businessinsider.com%2Fimage%2F53a08fe06bb3f7ca540bc4ff-1200-858%2Frtr3u1yk.jpg&hash=068d439fa6a7ac314c5a2cf7d4d7c0adfe78dfe2)
The admirals of the Soviet Union declared North Korea's prize submarine to be obsolete back in 1961, and Western experts stubbornly point out its inability to sink enemy vessels.
Every other navy in the world then gave up on the Romeo, with its noisy and easily detectable diesel engine – apart, that is, from North Korea's.Today, the country has 20 Romeo class boats, comprising almost a third of its submarine fleet.
The boats carry Yu-4 torpedoes, a Chinese-made weapon dating from the 1960s with a range of four miles.
The Los Angeles Class nuclear-powered attack submarines of the US Navy, meanwhile, carry Harpoon missiles that can sink a ship 150 miles away.
http://www.businessinsider.com/kim-jong-un-mans-a-soviet-submarine-thats-been-obsolete-since-1961-photos-2014-6
Which should we (or the neighbors) fear the most?
An attack of some sort, EMP, dirty bomb, just a missile, on a US territory, or US ship?
or
An attack on one of our Allies - Japan or South Korea?
Gee.. if they tried to attack the Philippines, would the US intervein or would China? Maybe that would be the purpose, to get us fighting eachother!
No doubt, the little dog eating fat guy is considering his options, where to cause the most damage to what - if he is attacked first.
What bugs me the most about people like this, they take on a "what have I got to lose?" mentality, instead of being 'nice' they might be thinking of hurting as many people as they can before their final curtain. In that sense, he is a bigger problem than a non-nuclear country.
Quote from: quiller on May 04, 2017, 10:23:21 AM
I suspect you have again obsessed on nukes and assorted major sub-delivered missiles. Can the Romeo class, fire a missile in an upward trajectory, high enough to activate an EMP effect---or can it not?
(*pause for evil chuckle*)
Let's face it. If that little fat corksocker thinks that China has truly abandoned him, then he'd use a damned SLINGSHOT to get such an EMP device aloft. Doesn't have to have Iranian plutonium or Russian servomechanical whatchacallits.
On the upside, until Tubby's boffins up their game and extend their range, any damage will be our West Coast. They can do without electricity and the Internet for a while. Particularly the Bay area. :biggrin:
Hmm ... good thought Quiller. If we even put up a wall at the CA border and the lights go out, it will look a lot like NK. And if we let their state govt. keep going liberal, they'll even look more like NK. It will also help the US illegal immigration problem. We'd have to rescue a few of our patriot friends though.
Quote from: Solar on May 04, 2017, 05:59:49 AM
Just because they can launch a missile is no reason to overreact. Anything they launch, and I mean anything, can be taken out, which is why we stationed THAAD on the DMZ.
When I was there, our biggest concern was a strike across the border because we were told we'd have 3 minutes to react.
To this day I still cringe when I hear a civil defence siren monthly test.
But fast forward nearly 50 years and we have all kinds of deterrents as well as defensive capabilities, including the Patriot batteries up and down the Z.
http://thediplomat.com/2017/03/us-starts-deploying-thaad-anti-missile-defense-system-in-south-korea/
(https://www.stripes.com/polopoly_fs/1.456150.1488187251!/image/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/landscape_900/image.jpg)
By the way, China hates THAAD, which is one more reason to deploy it, it puts even more pressure on the commie Chinks.
The old diesel electric subs can be a real trick to detect when running silent. They have really crap outdated subs but I remember the Falkland war when England had a hell of a time finding and sinking the Argentine Diesel Boat we sold to them! Remember that was the brits biggest fear to their navy during that conflict!
Are our anti sub defenses really that active on the left coast?
The saving part is that at this time his sub launch missiles don't seam to be working well and I don't believe he has perfected his nuke to where one could even fit on a medium range missile let alone have the guidance or firing system reliable enough to attempt it! That said we would be fools to wait until he did!
Quote from: redbeard on May 04, 2017, 04:49:35 PM
The old diesel electric subs can be a real trick to detect when running silent. They have really crap outdated subs but I remember the Falkland war when England had a hell of a time finding and sinking the Argentine Diesel Boat we sold to them! Remember that was the brits biggest fear to their navy during that conflict!
Are our anti sub defenses really that active on the left coast?
The saving part is that at this time his sub launch missiles don't seam to be working well and I don't believe he has perfected his nuke to where one could even fit on a medium range missile let alone have the guidance or firing system reliable enough to attempt it! That said we would be fools to wait until he did!
I've also heard & read the same thing.
http://www.behindbluelines.com/2009/07/22/what-is-state-of-the-art-in-submarine-detection/
QuoteBecause of the reduction in perceived threat, the Navy pared down its ASW patrol presence – particularly in the Atlantic – and closed key bases that supported patrol squadrons, redirecting aging patrol aircraft to other, non-ASW missions. At the same time, the Navy also reduced its ASW training budget for the surface fleet with some units never participating in coordinated and realistic ASW exercises in spite of the tiered requirements set down in the Surface Force Training Manual and as required during Inter-Deployment Training Cycles (link is to a Rand report on comparative ASW training between DDG-51 destroyer crews and their British and French counterparts).
In the meantime, the world witnessed the rapid development and proliferation of ultra-quiet diesel-electric (DE) and air-independent propulsion (AIP) submarines whose hull and plant noise signatures fell below the signal-to-noise levels detectable by the Navy's passive detection systems, especially in noisy littoral areas. The Swedes and Australians in particular repeatedly embarassed the Navy in exercises. Their Gotland and Collins-class submarines, respectively, have been able to penetrate Navy battle groups undetected and even "sink" Los Angeles-class submarines assigned to protect the fold.
a. Diesel Electric is nothing like the WW2 German Uboats we see in the movies.
b. They are very, very quiet and can stay down a long time, compared to the subs we think of as a chugging-along-noisy-diesel in Das Boot.
c. By comparison to a US Nuclear sub, they are CHEAP and expendable.
http://www.naval-technology.com/features/feature121453/
QuoteAcoustic signatures have, for instance, already been cut to unprecedented low levels with the likes of the US Virginia class attack submarines, which employ a novel propulsor design, isolated deck structures and an innovative anechoic hull coating - but even so, they can still be heard. Future generations of submarines, are gearing up to be quieter still, particularly if the direction taken by Howaldtswerke-Deutsche Werft (part of ThyssenKrupp Marine Systems) with its revolutionary Class 212A, becomes mainstream.
Powered by hydrogen fuel cells, these vessels offer non-nuclear, air-independent operation, are almost completely silent and radiate virtually no heat. This, coupled with high-tech energy management, acoustically optimised equipment and non-magnetic construction, is claimed to make these submarines "nearly impossible to detect."
It's quite fascinating stuff, and the opportunity for the Chinese to test new stealth technologies against American detection systems... North Korea is just a Chinese pawn. As rapidly as China is building and improving their ocean going fleet, we'd be naive to think they are not right in the middle of this... they're just being careful not to get caught.
I wonder what will the present administration do, -when- they find Chinese fingerprints all over some technology North Korea is not-suppose-to-have... we may have already - and with any luck, Trump is leveraging it to pressure China to tighten the screws on the little fat guy.
Quote from: redbeard on May 04, 2017, 04:49:35 PM
The old diesel electric subs can be a real trick to detect when running silent. They have really crap outdated subs but I remember the Falkland war when England had a hell of a time finding and sinking the Argentine Diesel Boat we sold to them! Remember that was the brits biggest fear to their navy during that conflict!
Are our anti sub defenses really that active on the left coast?
The saving part is that at this time his sub launch missiles don't seam to be working well and I don't believe he has perfected his nuke to where one could even fit on a medium range missile let alone have the guidance or firing system reliable enough to attempt it! That said we would be fools to wait until he did!
Nah, not with the tech we use today, Hell, we can detect a fish fart with the listening equipment we have today.
It's not just on subs, we have listening devices at all depths around the world and the Eastern Pacific all up and down the coast can tell you exactly what schools of fish are passing by, to what kind of boat just went overhead.
You have to keep in mind, aside from humans listening, computers analyze each and every sound, even those above and below the ability of a man sitting at his station bored to tears.
So you may think they're silent, but our tech hears a cacophony of sounds, while man hears nothing.
Now consider an NK sub trying to sneak close to shore, we already have their acoustic fingerprint, diesel or electric, we can detect it all, miles away and long before we dispatch a sub to the area.
Quote from: Hoofer on May 05, 2017, 02:57:18 PM
I've also heard & read the same thing.
http://www.behindbluelines.com/2009/07/22/what-is-state-of-the-art-in-submarine-detection/
a. Diesel Electric is nothing like the WW2 German Uboats we see in the movies.
b. They are very, very quiet and can stay down a long time, compared to the subs we think of as a chugging-along-noisy-diesel in Das Boot.
c. By comparison to a US Nuclear sub, they are CHEAP and expendable.
http://www.naval-technology.com/features/feature121453/
It's quite fascinating stuff, and the opportunity for the Chinese to test new stealth technologies against American detection systems... North Korea is just a Chinese pawn. As rapidly as China is building and improving their ocean going fleet, we'd be naive to think they are not right in the middle of this... they're just being careful not to get caught.
I wonder what will the present administration do, -when- they find Chinese fingerprints all over some technology North Korea is not-suppose-to-have... we may have already - and with any luck, Trump is leveraging it to pressure China to tighten the screws on the little fat guy.
I've said it before. It's very plausible that the Chinese are using NK as a bargain chip. China gets NK to act out, China comes to save the day ... in exchange for ...
I suspect the same with Russia and Syria. But I think Russia got surprised when Trump pulled the trigger.
As for evidence, I can't put it together on either case. But it is plausible - events make sense in that context. Some semblance of Occam's Razor in that regard.
Quote from: topside on May 06, 2017, 07:13:24 AM
I've said it before. It's very plausible that the Chinese are using NK as a bargain chip. China gets NK to act out, China comes to save the day ... in exchange for ...
I suspect the same with Russia and Syria. But I think Russia got surprised when Trump pulled the trigger.
As for evidence, I can't put it together on either case. But it is plausible - events make sense in that context. Some semblance of Occam's Razor in that regard.
Possible, but not probable.
http://www.foxnews.com/world/2017/05/04/north-korea-threat-pyongyang-directly-criticizes-china-in-rare-move.html
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-northkorea-china-idUSKBN17Z1TA
Quote from: Solar on May 06, 2017, 07:41:26 AM
Possible, but not probable.
QuoteChina is North Korea's neighbor and only major ally and the United States has pressed it to use its influence to rein in North Korea's nuclear and missile programs. Diplomats say Washington and Beijing are negotiating a possible stronger U.N. Security Council response - such as new sanctions - to North Korea's repeated ballistic missile launches.
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-northkorea-china-idUSKBN17Z1TA
Giggle. Snork. A stronger U.N. anything, to help the U.S.? What are they smoking there?
Quote from: quiller on May 06, 2017, 07:44:57 AM
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-northkorea-china-idUSKBN17Z1TA
Giggle. Snork. A stronger U.N. anything, to help the U.S.? What are they smoking there?
LOL! Crack? Leave it to Reuters to spin shit into strawmen. :biggrin:
"China is North Korea's neighbor and only
major ally".
NK has no other ally, not one nation, without the blessing of China, will come to the aid of the Fat little halfwit,
Quote from: Solar on May 06, 2017, 07:41:26 AM
Possible, but not probable.
http://www.foxnews.com/world/2017/05/04/north-korea-threat-pyongyang-directly-criticizes-china-in-rare-move.html
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-northkorea-china-idUSKBN17Z1TA
Yeah ... I considered the NK statements as in your posts. I didn't say that China was cooperating with NK to use them as a bargaining chip. But it's pretty easy to get KuJo to mouth off. Then China can go in and shut him up ... in exchange for political or trade capital with the US. I can come up with logic for how this scenario unfolds.
But the idea is less plausible that KuJo wakes up one morning in his god-like tenure and decides to piss off two of the largest nations in the world and lose his soft political position of easily dominating NK.
It's a little like the communist check list that you shared (lesser degree) ... we can't prove what's at work on getting the communist agenda done, but the systematic accomplishment of the list is telling ... there is an operating force behind it. Iron-clad proof is hard to come by to expose incidental or clandestine operators. By operator, I mean something acting on society. By incidental I mean that the operator is inherent in the behavior of the people (distributed behavior) ... no overt individual force. Clandestine implies a hidden operating force.
Quote from: topside on May 06, 2017, 08:21:29 AM
Yeah ... I considered the NK statements as in your posts. I didn't say that China was cooperating with NK to use them as a bargaining chip. But it's pretty easy to get KuJo to mouth off. Then China can go in and shut him up ... in exchange for political or trade capital with the US. I can come up with logic for how this scenario unfolds.
But the idea is less plausible that KuJo wakes up one morning in his god-like tenure and decides to piss off two of the largest nations in the world and lose his soft political position of easily dominating NK.
It's a little like the communist check list that you shared (lesser degree) ... we can't prove what's at work on getting the communist agenda done, but the systematic accomplishment of the list is telling ... there is an operating force behind it. Iron-clad proof is hard to come by to expose incidental or clandestine operators. By operator, I mean something acting on society. By incidental I mean that the operator is inherent in the behavior of the people (distributed behavior) ... no overt individual force. Clandestine implies a hidden operating force.
Though perplexing on several levels as to why this little moron would lash out in all directions, but when one compares him to a chained dog, he tests his adversaries by lunging at them and gauging their reactions.
In the case of threats towards his ONLY ally, China, he measures their capitulating response as to just how much they're willing to go in allowing him rope to threaten other countries.
Point is, China once again spewed hollow threats and rhetoric at Fat twit, rather than institute swift action, this tells Kim he still has room to work his magic.
China's nonreaction speaks volumes, so expect to see more BS from the little fat fuck.
Here's the thing, there's an election taking place in South Korea, one candidate is taking a tough stance on NK, while the other is playing the "America is Evil" hand, which plays to some in the country with a Nationalistic spirit. With the nation nearly evenly split on the issue, depending on how low key Trump plays his hand, could sway the other half out of fear of Kim's aggressive rhetoric.
So Trump is playing the waiting game knowing if he pushes NK right now, it plays into the leftist faction in SK that wants the US out, but if Trump lays low, it's likely the left will be rejected, Trump will be able to proceed in pushing the little fat fuck to an end.
If the left wins in SK elections, then Trump will play the "Arm Japan with nukes", one of China's biggest worries beyond nukes in SK.
Either way, at this point it's a waiting game till after the SK elections next Tuesday.
There's a fat little guy that breaks into your house. He thinks he sees something and unloads his shotgun on it. It was the house cat. You hold your revolver and can either shoot him or wait and see if he calms down. He reloads and then unloads on your dog. Then you still stand and wait to see if he's going to stop? No ... that's not what anyone with sense would do. You'd listen for an opening, give a double tap to the chest and then to the head - finish it off to protect your family and yourself.
Another NK launch today / yesterday. Chinese aren't being very effective deterrents. Seems the Reds are drawing Obama "red lines" - NK pays no notice. Such a shame as we could use a partner in stopping some of the world's aggression. But China seems content to watch and wait ... but wait for what? I'm sure the spineless UN won't take a stand. Trump can't act alone and needs Congress to step up ... but they're too busy chasing Russian collusion snipes around.
Thanks Dims, Rinos, MSM ... you've neutralized our defense posture. That's on you; but no one will recognize it! So your pathetic political careers are safe while our national safety and safety abroad swirls down the toilet. You're a bunch of Wiener's ... making a perverted, criminal, political choice in this case ... no, it's not a sickness. Time for some to get humble and stand up for the values of our Republic. But you won't ... bunch of Wieners. When I was in junior high, we would laugh about any Wiener joke. Wiener has a new meaning for me now ... and I'm not laughing this time. A Wiener makes insanely bad choices with tremendous consequences on the community - and the Wiener makes excuses and takes no responsibility. Example ... Bill Clinton ... what a Wiener. Dims mantra should be "let's be a winner" but is, rather, "let's be a Wiener". Ok ... back to the subject.
Given the aggressive launch schedule, NK must have a large supply of missiles - whether made or bought.
Would imagine that we should know in advance, via intelligence and imagery of when they are prepared to launch. Not sure how long it takes to setup. But enough is enough ... seems we should be using their missiles as target practice - knocking them out of the sky if we can. Otherwise, taking the missiles out on their launch pads and any stock that we have surveilled. I wonder how much time it takes to setup and launch ... if we know in advance so that we could take them out just prior to launch? The portables probably get setup pretty fast.
Quote from: topside on May 21, 2017, 05:03:12 AM
There's a fat little guy that breaks into your house. He thinks he sees something and unloads his shotgun on it. It was the house cat. You hold your revolver and can either shoot him or wait and see if he calms down. He reloads and then unloads on your dog. Then you still stand and wait to see if he's going to stop? No ... that's not what anyone with sense would do. You'd listen for an opening, give a double tap to the chest and then to the head - finish it off to protect your family and yourself.
Another NK launch today / yesterday. Chinese aren't being very effective deterrents. Seems the Reds are drawing Obama "red lines" - NK pays no notice. Such a shame as we could use a partner in stopping some of the world's aggression. But China seems content to watch and wait ... but wait for what? I'm sure the spineless UN won't take a stand. Trump can't act alone and needs Congress to step up ... but they're too busy chasing Russian collusion snipes around.
Thanks Dims, Rinos, MSM ... you've neutralized our defense posture. That's on you; but no one will recognize it! So your pathetic political careers are safe while our national safety and safety abroad swirls down the toilet. You're a bunch of Wiener's ... making a perverted, criminal, political choice in this case ... no, it's not a sickness. Time for some to get humble and stand up for the values of our Republic. But you won't ... bunch of Wieners. When I was in junior high, we would laugh about any Wiener joke. Wiener has a new meaning for me now ... and I'm not laughing this time. A Wiener makes insanely bad choices with tremendous consequences on the community - and the Wiener makes excuses and takes no responsibility. Example ... Bill Clinton ... what a Wiener. Dims mantra should be "let's be a winner" but is, rather, "let's be a Wiener". Ok ... back to the subject.
Given the aggressive launch schedule, NK must have a large supply of missiles - whether made or bought.
Would imagine that we should know in advance, via intelligence and imagery of when they are prepared to launch. Not sure how long it takes to setup. But enough is enough ... seems we should be using their missiles as target practice - knocking them out of the sky if we can. Otherwise, taking the missiles out on their launch pads and any stock that we have surveilled. I wonder how much time it takes to setup and launch ... if we know in advance so that we could take them out just prior to launch? The portables probably get setup pretty fast.
If I were King, I would go the sea of china, surround that man made island China is so vigorously working on, and tell them to "Get the fuck off, it's our now"!
Watch how fast Kim stops his nonsense. Trump knows Kim is Chinas junk yard dog, China knows we know, but we all play this game of odd diplomacy and hope the other caves.
Putting pressure on China is the only real card to play outside of open confrontation with NK, making us look the aggressor and playing right into world stereotypes of US aggression around the globe.
Quote from: Solar on May 21, 2017, 06:14:40 AM
If I were King, I would go the sea of china, surround that man made island China is so vigorously working on, and tell them to "Get the fuck off, it's our now"!
Watch how fast Kim stops his nonsense. Trump knows Kim is Chinas junk yard dog, China knows we know, but we all play this game of odd diplomacy and hope the other caves.
Putting pressure on China is the only real card to play outside of open confrontation with NK, making us look the aggressor and playing right into world stereotypes of US aggression around the globe.
An unstable equilibrium. I wonder what the next move will be? I don't have enough knowledge into similar historical events to predict what the outcome is likely to be.
Quote from: topside on May 21, 2017, 08:23:25 AM
An unstable equilibrium. I wonder what the next move will be? I don't have enough knowledge into similar historical events to predict what the outcome is likely to be.
Truth is, most likely nothing. I think Trump is taking the side road of ignoring the little tantrum thrower, knowing full well all he has are empty threats.
I say empty threats because China will never let him start an actual war with the US, they know we would not only obliterate his worthless ass, but put boots on the ground, right on the Chinese border, the one thing they fear the most, losing the centuries old safety that isolation brings.
Notice there's been absolutely no response to Kims firing of another missile? In fact, it was very close to a Russian city when it went down, but even Russia was mum on the issue because they ally with China, and yes, they know the game China plays using the little dictator.
Quote from: topside on May 21, 2017, 08:23:25 AM
An unstable equilibrium. I wonder what the next move will be? I don't have enough knowledge into similar historical events to predict what the outcome is likely to be.
Case in point. Why did China punish South Korea for wanting to defend itself, instead of punishing NK for being the aggressor.?
Chinese cable television companies have cut off access to South Korean programming in a move by Beijing to punish Seoul for installing a missile defense system aimed at North Korea, but which China says threatens its own security, sources say.The blocking of South Korean drama and news shows follows earlier measures taken to show China's displeasure over the Terminal High Altitude Area Defense (THAAD) system being deployed in South Korea in the wake of Pyongyang's test launch of ballistic missiles.
Boycotts of South Korean goods and services have spread across China in recent weeks, with Chinese travel agents also halting group tours to South Korea and Chinese hotels turning away South Korean guests, sources say.
Now, Chinese authorities have blocked access in China to popular South Korean broadcasting, a source in Yanji city in China's Jilin province told RFA's Korean Service.
"They have blocked South Korean television channels because of the THAAD deployment dispute," RFA's source said, speaking on condition of anonymity.
"It has been almost a month now since the channels were blocked, and we see no sign of getting them back," he said.
http://www.rfa.org/english/news/korea/blocks-04112017151500.html
Hmm...is this the 2nd final warning? Seems to me I've heard this before.
Quote from: Ms.Independence on May 21, 2017, 03:47:29 PM
Hmm...is this the 2nd final warning? Seems to me I've heard this before.
It's something like the RED line in the sand. :popcorn:
Quote from: walkstall on May 21, 2017, 03:50:07 PM
It's something like the RED line in the sand. :popcorn:
....and that worked out so well!
Quote from: Ms.Independence on May 21, 2017, 03:52:03 PM
....and that worked out so well!
I like Trump RED LINE.
Quote"annihilate" the Islamic State group in Syria
Quote from: Ms.Independence on May 21, 2017, 03:47:29 PM
Hmm...is this the 2nd final warning? Seems to me I've heard this before.
No, this time it was China threatening South Korea on behalf of the little fat ass commie.
It just backs up what I've been saying all along, that Kim is China's puppet.
Quote from: Solar on May 21, 2017, 09:12:06 AM
Truth is, most likely nothing. I think Trump is taking the side road of ignoring the little tantrum thrower, knowing full well all he has are empty threats.
I say empty threats because China will never let him start an actual war with the US, they know we would not only obliterate his worthless ass, but put boots on the ground, right on the Chinese border, the one thing they fear the most, losing the centuries old safety that isolation brings.
Notice there's been absolutely no response to Kims firing of another missile? In fact, it was very close to a Russian city when it went down, but even Russia was mum on the issue because they ally with China, and yes, they know the game China plays using the little dictator.
ignoring? Last report I've seen shows the Ronald Reagan battle group moving into the area with a third Aircraft carrier on the way! Our forces continue to grow in that area. 3 Carrier task forces sure is sending a message! How long would they maintain that level of deployment? If they were to reduce it without North Korea concessions it would just sent the little shit the message he can do whatever and we'll back down.
I think before this is over we will end up blowing the little fat boy to hell and back!
Quote from: redbeard on May 21, 2017, 05:43:50 PM
ignoring? Last report I've seen shows the Ronald Reagan battle group moving into the area with a third Aircraft carrier on the way! Our forces continue to grow in that area. 3 Carrier task forces sure is sending a message! How long would they maintain that level of deployment? If they were to reduce it without North Korea concessions it would just sent the little shit the message he can do whatever and we'll back down.
I think before this is over we will end up blowing the little fat boy to hell and back!
I was talking about rhetoric, I wasn't talking about militarily. This thing with Kim in North Korea? He is nothing more than a pawn in a chess game Trump and China is positioning around.
No, it's the rhetoric that's died down, and I would guess much of it has to do with SK and the new President wanting more calm while he attempts capitulation and groveling to the fat little dictator. In addition to the fact that Trump is sending a message, 'When I'm serious, I won't tell you', as we're seeing now.
Trump's pressure on NK is more of an illusion, he's actually putting pressure on China with Kim as their puppet, all the while playing up the Middle East achievements in the media.
No, the only thing that changed with the NK issue is Trump playing it more serious. His statement that China is welcome to help quell NK, speaks volumes to China. As I pointed out earlier with the post over the SK TV ban as being proof that China is in total control of NK, and Trump is calling their bluff.
China recognizes "Walk soft, carry a big stick".
Also, let's not forget, this also puts a serious strain on China's advance in the South China sea and their BS island building. The last thing China wants is having to expose just how inept their military is because we're interfering with their idea of stealing territory via island building.
Nothing would hurt them more than being shamed into leaving the area. Taiwan, Hong Kong, and other oppressed nations are watching.
I believe the rhetorical game is over for now. Now China sits down for serious discussion. Remember, war is nothing more than failed political solutions.
China is the dog house and Trump knows it....
Well Kim just launched another missile. It looks like China's red line was manufactured in the Obama administration.